In the last five years or so do the Democrats have anything they can be

[Toots]

Proud of. Have they done anything they can brag about in re-election ads? I can think of absolutely nothing. They seem to have accepted everything the GOP has thrown at them without hardly any debate. One thing, name just one thing they have accomplished to make me want to vote for them....The way government has always seemed to work before Bush* came along was one side would throw out the most extreme side of their issue and the other side would whittle away at it until some sort of compromise was reached. Since Bush* came into power the GOP would throw out the most extreme version of the issue as always but the Democrats would just accepty it. It actually shocked Bush* I believe at how easily he got every single thing he asked for and then some.....

[brmdp3123]

1. Pretty much shot down Social Security reform.

[Toots]

4. I would say the people of America did that, not Democrats

It wasn't pushed because when GOP Congressmen went home to talk to "their" folks they got an earful and decided it best to drop the issue. Democrats did not do much..

[ClassWarrior]

13. I would say the people of America ARE Democrats... whether...

...they identify with the party or not. Democrats did a helluva lot.

NGU.

[ixion]

2. I agree...

I can't think of anything significant they've done since the coup of 2000.

[Armstead]

3. Some individual Democrats have a lot to be proud of

John Conyers, Dennis Kucinich, Barbara Boxer, Ted Kennedy and many others have had either proud moments or consistently put up the kind of fight we need to have.

But they get undermined by the lack of overal cohesiveness, and by the contrary actions and stances of collaborationist Democrat stooges.

So I'd say as an entity not much to be proud of. But there are a lot of expamples of individuals and specific actions to be proud of.

[ixion]

5. that's true

several good individual efforts, but on the whole, they act like a battered wife.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

25. So let's attack the victim?

Battered women are battered by abusers.

Human nature is such that certain behaviors tend to manifest in such circumstances.

I suppose blaming the victim is another such behavior, a distancing to say they are not like me. I wouldn't react that way.

[ixion]

26. to a certain degree, yes

a battered spouse has to decide they're ready to affect change, rather than continually defending the partner that beats them.

Same is true here. We attempt to get things started, and the DLC bunch comes out in defense of the criminal admin. In that case, you're darn tootin' I'll blame the victim.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

31. That's a real glib response to a very difficult, tormented

life experience.

"Blaming the victim" implies looking down on them.

I won't get into the DLC vs the rest of the Democratic party.

But blaming the victim is a really lame reaction, IMHO.

[ixion]

32. having been in this situation first hand, where I was the abused

I speak from experience.


And I am NOT exclusively blaming the 'victim', as you put it. The DLC is not a victim. The democratic party is no victim. They are not innocent.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

38. While I regret that you have experienced such, I do not believe first hand

experience gives one the truth of any situation.

It may be helpful to an individual to remind themselves of their own responsibility in
extracting themselves from an abusive relationship or situation.

But it seems to me it is one thing to say the above to yourself or someone you're close to. It is another
to state it as a general principle or apply it to someone else. I doubt it is helpful in
the latter case.

[ixion]

40. the idea of self-empowerment is crucial, I believe, and applicable

unless the Dems really don't care that they are now officially the rethugs whippin' post.

I didn't mean to stray from my original statement by interjecting my personal experience, or arguing over an analogy. We've been debating what I likened them to, rather than the problem at hand. The problem at hand is that the dems are now subservient to rethugs, thanks to a softball mentality, or perhaps darker issues. That is an undeniable fact.

My original point was that as long as they continually come out in defense of the party they're allegedly in opposition to, there will be no change, and there will be no opposition.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

41. I really agree wholeheartedly. Which is why I keep saying

that trying to gain the approval of the bully is self-defeating and a futile exercise.

I don't generally get into the arguments about the DLC, mainly because of my concern over splintering the
party in the immediate future before a viable 3rd party or coalition can be formed, thus condemning us to
the reign of the neocons.

However, I can't tell you how much I want to scream when people try to put *'s illegal wiretaps into "historical
perspective," only to conclude it is the same thing.

It is like Al Gore has been saying, this isn't typical. It isn't one isolated instance, and yet the "pundits"
continue to maintain that it is and fail to either recognize or point out this one crime is only a part of
a larger pattern.

A very dangerous pattern.

[ClassWarrior]

16. Wrong. They get undermined by the manufactured perception of the...

...lack of overall cohesiveness. The Republicons are no more cohesive than we are. Witness McCain, Hagel, and their ilk. The ones who lend the appearance "cohesiveness" to the Con party are a small criminal cabal not much larger than the Dem group you named. But we keep drinking the Corporate Media koolaid that they have discipline and we're cats in pink tutus to be herded.

NGU.

[rhett o rick]

36. Class Warrior, I like your name. Please define the classes that are

warring. If it's like I think, Rich and gullible vs. middle class and poor, then many Democrat leaders are on their side. Whose side is Sen Clinton on?

[Armstead]

39. No the GOP has been disciplined -- but they ar losing it

The CON party is going through a right-wing version the same thing the Democrats went through in the past.

For many years, the GOP hs been a Big tent for CONservatives of all stripes. Despite the differences among various factions, they kept their differences to themselves and marched in lockstep. That's how they got so much power.

But now that they have had the power for a while, their schismc are beginning to show more and more. And there are familiar rifts growing between "centrist" CONservatives and grass roots conservatives who are increasingly estranged from them.

They will likely also increasingly experience the type of splintering that has affected the Democratic Party. So they are getting less cohesive.

But -- up ot this point -- they have been a lot more cohesive and unified, and it paid off for them, at least for a while.

[TheCowsCameHome]

6. Democrats agreeing on policies is like herding cats.

Every one wants their guy, their ideas, their philsophy to be the one implemented.

Say what you will about the Repukes, they get behind, or at least give the appearance of, supporting their standard bearers. Lots of them rolled their eyes when IdiotSon was annointed, but they managed to swallow hard and support him.

It's damn tough - if not impossible - to win elections when the party policy is all over the place. No solid unity, then no winning and having clout.

I would agree SSI was a thing the dems scuttled. Or at least prevented the Repukes from ramming through as they intended.

[kath]

19. Ummm, SSI is NOT the same thing as Social Security payments to retirees.

[catmother]

21. SSI is like welfare. it's paid to poor people who are considered

disabled. many drug addicts collect SSI along with people in prison.

[WCGreen]

30. I get SSI simply because I am uninsurable....

I can't make any real money...

It's a terrible situation...

[oneoftheboys]

37. I agree with you and I think your first paragraph says it all.

I believe what you describe as "herding cats" is caused by the selfishness of some Democrats.

Unless these people can find the patience to put their issues on the back burner and become team players, nothing will change.

[applegrove]

7. The reaction of Dems during Katrina. With no power they buckled

under - flew down (Gore) - put experts in place (Clinton) or made a speech talking about Big Oil (H. Clinton). Pelosi didn't stand for Bush game playing when she visited the oval office. That was quite some action for people who had no control of the leavers of power. Kerry came out with a detailed plan on Iraq. How bout Give em Hell Harry? Lot's of stuff. Tax reform may be dead. Social Security gutting is.

There is so much more. This year was actually a good one for Dems - they learnt some stuff. A horrid year for people in iraq, indian ocean, Gulf Coast, Pakistan, Darfur, Uganda, etc. People unemployed, or anyone afraid of Bush had a bad year cause it is hard to look and hear that shit. But for the Dems - they built up some strength with very little in the way of tools. But hard to do when they were not ready to face the machine they faced. Nobody is ready for that much power in a few people's hands - especially when they didn't have the votes to do anything but filibuster.

Now they are ready.

Don't drink the kool-aid. Don't buy into the vision Rove & the GOP have painted of the Dems. They are powerless but only because they don't have enough votes. That voting thing changes ever two years. Think of getting the 9/11 commission to finish its report. Think of the openness the President has been forced to speak with in the last month (he will still try to lie but it doesn't work). Dems also have not had any say in the news cycle. Once the campaign starts in 2006 - they will not be powerless. I doubt very much it would be wise for them to start talking their heads off right now. What we are seeing now is some discipline within dem ranks. Power dry and all the rest.

It is normal when you are faced with a manipulative foe to cut your losses again and again. It is normal. That is what happens to victims of certain types of nefariousness. It is part of the process believe it or not. So most important when these losses build - for you to take care of yourself. Pick your battles. Know yourself. So if it is getting to a point where you no longer believe and cannot take any more - take a break. Do something that will pan out. Mentor a kid. Plant a garden. Volunteer. So that you can have some success. Because we need you. All rested up. Perhaps having grieved the loss of the world as you once knew it. We need you in 2006. Where we can all join hands and work together & win!

Sorry for you if you cannot get what you need in terms of Dem policies at this point. The only person who hurts more than you is likely some GOP political operative! No news is good news.

And don't let Alito get you down. If he undoes Roe vs. Wade, he has just undone the privacy part of the law. It will be up to states to make reproductive rights for themselves.

[Toots]

8. And their campaign ads will say what????

We said no to GOP but they ran roughshod over us anyway.....Yes Republicans have had a bad year but if you look at any of the polls Democrats don't seem to be benefiting from it. According to polls most people don't put the Democrats any higher than the GOP. What will they brag about in their ads or will they just be negative ads about the GOP?

[applegrove]

15. What nefarious people will do is cause something to the victims they

attack and then get people to judge them on it.

Let's say they go to war because they know that americans will vote for a War President. And that is the main reason they go to war. Why the political arm of the GOP signed onto war. So they can have 8 years. History tells them they will. So they do that. And Dems loose all power because you have a War President. So repukes have this war president to win the elections. And they win. So they have power. And for the first time ever in our lives - Dems have no power.

This is what no power looks like.

It looks bad doesn't it?

Dems can do none of the things they used to do. Their political lives have been quite different than before.

If you don't like it - there is only one way to change that. It is with your vote.

Or you could just sit there disgusted because here the Dems are suddenly not allowed to act on their strengths (legislation) and you don't like that. You could judge them on the fact and go and change your relationship to them because for once - there was a big successful powergrab from the other side.

Dems are better at peace, the economy, education, finance, health, equality, tolerance, policy, science, security, and making the lives of Americans better.

But please. Ignore all that because you feel disgust at the situation they have been put in because the voters in your country behave in predictable enough ways - that some bunch of goons were able to pick up on it and use it in a few elections.

[ClassWarrior]

17. Agreed - except...

...there is NOT "only one way to change that...with your vote." You can get involved in party politics. Work hard for candidates. Run yourself. Become involved. The Republicons didn't get where they are by letting their supporters sit on their pasty white asses.

NGU.

[Toots]

34. Except when a lot of these things happened Democrats controlled Senate

:shrug:

[applegrove]

42. We know they were lied into war - that they didn't get the intel the WH

& CIA had on how the WMD were mostly gone. Senate got info out of the mouth of rendition talkers.

Once again - liars in the WH cause an action and get Dems to judge their leaders on it.

So too - if Dems had affirmed Harriet Myers - and that had gone through - then Dems would be blamed for voting her in. They in fact had a "sofie's choice". Either say okay to a mild Harriet - or get the next Judge on the list .... in this case Alito.

Harriet was pulled. Dems didn't get to make that choice. But believe me - you would hold Dems accountable for confirming her - when all they wanted to do was confirm someone who didn't have a long record of conservative activism (Harriet's record was short).

This is exactly as the Rove WH wants it to be. The campaign to deminish the Dems in your mind has been going on since the day Bush took office.

You can go with a gut feeling of disgust at the powerlessness of the Dems and ignore the legislation they have faced and how they faced it - or you can vote on which group has the values you share.

[OKNancy]

9. Hell yes

Saved Social Security
Stopped ANWAR
got the child tax credit extended
because the Dems kept up the pressure...Bush's ratings are tanked.


For an opposition party, WE have done pretty good under the circumstances.

I'm sorry, but Democratic politicans aren't going to act like DUers. They have to get elected and re-elected.

[stray cat]

10. Considering they don't have the numbers to do anything

by traditional channels I think they have done a good job. If Americans want change its up to the people to vote the republicans out of office. We might as well ask what we as individuals have done in the last 5 years that has led to productive change - we have a similar level of clout - meaning very little.

[Toots]

11. Yes but they will be placing campaign ads not me

What will they brag about or will all the ads just be against GOP?

[ClassWarrior]

14. You tell me, in the last five years or so do the Republicons have...

...anything for which they can be proud??

NGU.

[guidod]

27. In the past five years?

How about the past fifty years. Eisenhhower, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Daddybush and Babybush. I can't think of anything but lies, war and death.

[MrBenchley]

12. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.....

One wonders why somebody who hates Democrats so much would be clogging up a forum meant for Democrats....

[kath]

20. Maybe because many of us hate what the Repugs are doing to this

country and fervently wish that we had an OPPOSITION party. (which, of course, is what the Dems are *supposed* to be, but... See Chomsky piece from a day or so ago.)

[MrBenchley]

22. Or maybe some have got no clue

and exist only to run down Democrats.....

And Chomsky is as crazy as a shithouse rat. I don't give a fuck what that dreary old crackpot has to say on politics.

[kath]

23. so you think we DO have an opposition party??

Carry on, then.

(I certainly don't agree with everything Chomsky says, but his comments in that interview that "George Bush would be in severe political trouble if there were an opposition political party in the country. Just about every day, they're shooting themselves in the foot. The striking fact about contemporary American politics is that the Democrats are making almost no gain from this" are absolutely spot on.)

[MrBenchley]

33. Yeah, I do....

Adn when Chomsky runs for something and wins, then maybe I'll listen to his conclusions about what voters want.

[eridani]

44. What has he said that's crazy? n/t

[Toots]

35. If looking for good resembles hate then you are pretty messed up

I asked what good they have done and you assume I hate them because I can't recognize any. You obviously can not either or you would not be so defensive about it. Remember for a third of the time Bush* has been in office the Democrats controlled the Senate and they did ?????????????Tell me about all the great things they accomplished while in control. Tell me about them.

[leftofthedial]

18. Dems work for the same corporate masters as the repukes

the Dem and repuke agendas are so similar that there is little for Dems to be in "opposition" to.

"Our government is a bird with two right wings." --Lawrence Ferlinghetti

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

24. Democrats sense of self-esteem comes from some real values

of helping those who cannot help themselves and a real sense of integrity.

I heard someone explain that the Repukes get their sense of self-esteem through money, wealth. And that is why they are so susceptible to the kind of corruption we've been watching come to light.

Despite the onslaught by the radical right for many years now, the left, the liberals, the Democrats are now fighting back.

Many of us are on to their game.

Democrats have continued to stand for REAL values, not the hypocrisy laden carp of the neocons and rr wingnuts.

And given the chance, ie no stolen elections etc, I have no doubt that the legislative, excecutive, and judicial nominations will be far the better for having a Dem in the WH and/or majorities in the Senate and House.

[snowbear]

28. Toots...

If you're a Democrat (which I'm sure you are ) you shouldn't even have to ask such a question!

And as far as polls.. if you believe that a sampling of 1,000 people truly represents the entire American population (which I don't) -- then you should be happy that for 6 straight months Democrats have fared slightly better than Republicans as far as who should be in control of Congress.

And as Gallop says -- 49% of the population hasn't yet followed the Abramoff scandal. http://www.usatoday.com/news/polls/2006-01-09-poll.htm

[jonnyblitz]

29. John Murtha is someone to be proud of , IMHO

and he is conservative Democrat, too.

[Democat]

43. We need to get rid of most of the current elected Democratic leaders

Until we get new Democrats into the party, we are not going to make much progress.

Even if we were the party in power, the current Democrats would probably let the right wing set the agenda.

Look no further than Hillary and Lieberman to see how far right on social issues Democrats can be pushed.

It will take some new leadership in the party to fix all of the things that are broken.