Is there a single example of how giving Bush what he wants has helped DEMS

[Dr Fate]

I'd like someone to give me one single solitary example of how the "strategy" of "working with" and giving Bush what he wants has benefited the Democratic party or the United States.

Just one single solitary example.

Bush wants Alito to sail through w/o incident.

We have given Bush what he wants too many times.

It needs to end, for good with Alito.

[400Years]

1. oh but just wait for that super double secret filibuster!!!

[Dr Fate]

3. Is there a single example of how giving Bush what he wants has helped DEMS

??????????

[400Years]

5. not that I can think of

[leftstreet]

2. Well, when GWB is King George, we'll save a ton of money

When George starts ruling by divine right of presidential signing statements, we won't need the House or the Senate. Nor will we need the 15-22 staff members each rep gets. Dissolving all the committees will save a bunch. In fact, we won't even need most of the judiciary, which employs 1,000s upon 1,000s.

We could potentially save billions and billions in tax dollars a year.

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[The Magistrate]

4. The Problem With This Line, Doctor

Is a simple one, that ought not need repeating.

The Republicans have controlling majorities in both houses of Congress. It is not a question of Democrats "giving" the wretch anything. The other side has the power to do what it pleases, and the votes to stop it are not present.

It may well be, indeed, in my view it is, preferrable in some instances to fight and lose than not to fight at all, but the votes to balk the present regime are not present....

[RandomKoolzip]

8. Fascist enabler! Defeatist! FREEPER!!!!

FUCK THIS, I"M GOING GREEN!!!!!11!

:sarcasm:

Thanks for talking some sense, Magistrate. We can always count on you for throwing the light of reality onto some pretty fantastical corners. :thumbsup:

[Dr Fate]

12. Is there a single example of how giving Bush what he wants has helped DEMS

Just one single example to back up your position- thats all I ask for.

[The Magistrate]

19. That Is Not The Position Taken, Doctor

The fact is, the other side has the votes to secure what it desires. Talk of Democrats "giving" anything is a non sequiter.

"The basis of politics is simple arithmetic."

[Dr Fate]

22. Okay, for semantics sake, I'll rephrase the question:

How has refusing to put up a fight against Bush benefited The Democrats or the United States?

[The Magistrate]

25. That Is Much Better, Doctor

And it is not merely a matter of semantics; that is a different question, and a much more apt one. The short answer is that it has not helped. Not entering upon fights you will lose is the conventional strategic wisdom, and it is not surprising that it was employed in the earlier stages of this conflict. It is clear that it has not paid off, however, and that something else is required.

"Professionals are predictable, amateurs are dangerous."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[DancingBear]

9. I recall hearing years ago of the now-extinct species Moderate Republican

Will that creature ever walk again?

I fear not.

[Dr Fate]

10. We should stand up and fight this time.

Instead of following the failed "strategy" of falling in line and pretending to "work with" Bush.

No sale.

Again, I ask, can you give me one single solitary example of how going along with Bush has benefited the Democrats or the United States?

[The Magistrate]

17. In My View, Doctor

They should fillibuster. But it will not succeed. If sustained by sufficient votes, the rules will simply be changed, and the nomination proceed to approval by majority vote, which it is sure to receive, and would receive without a single vote from a Democrat.

There would be great political fall-out from this, hwever, that would likely benefit us in the up-coming election. A number of people would be aghast at the rawness of the exercise of majority power, and perople on our side would be enraged. Thus it could be a phyric voictory for the enemy. But this sort of calculation is easier for someone on the sidelines to make than it is for someone actually in office to make.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[sendero]

20. I've been screaming.

.... the same thing (in less careful prose) for several days here. Except the sidelines part :)

A better question for the OP would be "how does giving in to Bush help America"?

And a good question for the Dem senate would be "what do you have to lose"? Because they are rightfully going to lose the confidence of a lot of Dems if they sit on their hands AGAIN. Lose the confirmation fight, yes they will, but lose fighting and make the other side get a bloody nose out of the deal, don't just give it away.

[Dr Fate]

21. I think it would rally & unify the base like never before....

...I also think it would increase fundraising for DEMs.

When I was fundraising- I heard the "Democrats are not fighting these guys..." every single day.


You said:
"But this sort of calculation is easier for someone on the sidelines to make than it is for someone actually in office to make."

If the Democrats in power had been listening to those of us on "the sidelines", we would not be in Iraq and arguably, Kerry would have won or Bush would have been ham-strung long ago.

[nancyharris]

11. The last time I looked

there were 44 Democrat Senators. It takes 41 to filibuster this nomination. Are you saying that the party should not use every tool available to them to promote their ideals?

[The Magistrate]

18. They Should Fillibuster, Ma'am

But if it is sustained, the rule will be changed, and the matter proceed to a simple majority vote, which will carry.

[zanne]

23. I've come to envy Independents...

I live in New Hampshire, and we all know what happens up here every four years. During the last campaign season, every politician running for anything knew exactly what every Independent wanted, wished for and demanded. Politicians are so desperate for "swing" votes, they almost forgot about the Democrats! I guess I'm just getting old and crabby, but I'm getting tired of being ignored and taken for granted by the Democratic Party. The Republicans do one thing that's very smart; they try to please their base. I haven't felt like an important member of the Democratic party for a l--o-o-o-o-ng time now. It would be interesting to see how the Democratic party would change if more Liberals became Independents, and valued, once again.

[Dr Fate]

24. Democrats assume we will "hold our noses" for them and vote anyway.

That is why some strategists prefer to cater to Swing-voters while ignoring the "radical" base.

"Oh- those Cindy Sheenhan/Micheal Moore wack-os? Dont worry about them, they will vote for us, they have no other choice."

[Donna Zen]

26. Nose Holding; how's it working for America?

More and more I think that the nose-hold strategy isn't working. A recent article by James Wolcott gets it right:

Lanny Davis, his insipid, ingratiating grin firmly in place, was saying that he hoped Democrats wouldn't "politicize" the Jack Abramoff situation but simply let the facts of the case emerge.

This is the sort of idiot we're inflicted with, the perfect representative of the Beltway Democrat who cautions against politicizing anything remotely political for fear it might give David Broder a spot of indigestion. Wolcott

When the right-wing base decided that they wouldn't vote for someone who ignored them, George Bush the first lost, and the republicans have never ever dared to make that same mistake again.

I know that anytime I complain about "certain" useless (IMHO) Democrats there are those at DU who immediated try to shut me up by calling me (gasp!) a leftist. Cute. Really cute. Instead of having a conversation, these people who think that they determine the correct way to support the party resort to labeling. Oh boy! That's going to help us win.

Look, if we are going up against a "one-party state" run by people who more than willing to slit your throat, then the team I watched this week is not the one we need to lead the fight. It is hard to say what the individuals might have done if cut loose from the Lanny Davis-Hillary contingent, but it doesn't change the outcome we are now stuck with. I just watched George Mitchell on CNN and he agrees with me. Now ain't that just some kick-ass leftist radical?

[Zodiak]

27. I think that you are being too kind.

What I see more strategically-minded (often by self-description) party loyalists cajole the "radical" base into voting for Democrats to avoid ridicule for "wasting their vote". This goes beyond ignoring...it is betryal.

I am afraid that the same old strategy over and over is going to REALLY hurt establishment Democrats. The base wants a fight on this more than anything else, especially after being told to "cool our heels" and "keep our powder dry". People are very tired of waiting while everything around them crumbles.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

28. Who cares if the votes are present?

Don't principles count for anything?

If there's any "moderate" Democratic position that I hate after watching the Dems appease and enable the Republicans for 25 years, it's, "We couldn't oppose this because it was going to pass anyway." :grr:

[The Magistrate]

30. Principles, Ma'am?

"I am a man of principles, and chief among them is flexibility."

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

6. Bullies always respond so well to "niceness", don't you know.

It is like waving a red flag in front of a bull.

Since those guys care only about image, appearance, spin, power etc.

They know our side is different and we do have values, and they do exploit them at every turn.

The hard part is how those watching, the public, sees the interactions.

Even though all their civility is phoney, respect requires that we allow them their pretensions in public. It doesn't require that we continue trying to win them over to our values, when we know they have none and just could care less about seeing things from a different, better perpspective.

[Dr Fate]

13. Unfortunately, Swing voters like Clint Eastwood, not Mr. Rogers.

n/t

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

14. I'm with you. Mr. Rogers would be like an abuse magnet to the

neocons.

I like Mrs. President on Commander In Chief, the ABC tv show.

And Captain Katherine Janeway on Star Trek Voyager.

Very commanding, demanding respect, no nonsense. But not over the line aggressive or violent, just what is necessary.

[Dr Fate]

15. Atticus Finch. Jimmy Stewart's "Mr. Smith" n/t

n/t

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

16. Yes, exactly!!! n/t

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

7. self delete duplicate

[Jeffersons Ghost]

29. as some of you know...

I disagree with playing into Repuke strategy... Dems on the hill must save the option of filibuster for bigger, better things, LIKE IMPEACHMENT!

[Dr Fate]

31. Save the filibuster for impeachment?

I dont get it- if we win back congress and they have the guts to impeach, how will the filibuster come into play?

[Jeffersons Ghost]

34. the filibuster

The filibuster has been used in a wide variety of ways over the years. I certainly don't pretend to know how it could be specifically useful in impeachment but it is conceivable. I do know that if you have only one shot left in any type battle you want it to count and cause optimum damage.

[Dr Fate]

35. Perhaps Republicans could somehow use it to block impeachment?

That's the only place I see this going.

[salin]

32. No, but there are many examples of Dems being damaged

by the media echo chamber and rovian operatives for opposing bush. The opening to savage Cleland was his single vote against the creation of HLS; Daschle was also savaged.

THat said, bush, rove, the rw machine is badly, badly damaged. I do not think that they can still deliver knock-out punches - thus the "threat" sorta seems more like being tickled by a feather than it did three years ago.

[Dr Fate]

33. By your own accounts- they will Savage us regardless.

Max Cleland and Tom Daschel bent over back-wards to give Bush what he wanted on many an occasion. That "strategy" did not work- which is my point.

I hope you are right about Rove...

[The Straight Story]

36. Hey fate, like the thread - maybe you can help me with this one:

it's 2009, * is out - we look back. What did we stop him from doing those 8 years in office?
Would like a list we can keep adding to of all the things we have stopped he and his cronies from doing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2364245

A thread I started which I think in a way compliments what you are saying here. What do we get when we keep on giving.

Either things are worse than I thought or people have me on ignore cause there weren't many replies and the only one that had something good we did was on Social Security.

So maybe I will ask here: What have we stopped him from doing, how, and how too has DU and all our threads/work/et al changed things for the better for america? (ok, an expansion of the question, so sue me).....

[Dr Fate]

38. Okay- I'll check it out... n/t

n/t

[DeepModem Mom]

37. k and r