What will it take for Dean to get credit for having the Saddam thing right

[dsc]

Since Saddam has been captured all of the following:

a) we have had not one but two car bombs in Iraq (on the very day of his capture)

b) an increase in the terror alert level to orange accompanied by

1) anti air craft missile in DC

2) Tom Ridge stating that the threat is higher than at anytime since 9/11

3) our requiring foreign pilots' names.

So is it going to take an attack?

[drfemoe]

1. Who needs it?

Dean's Cheer in N.H. Extends Beyond Holidays
By Jonathan Finer
Washington Post Staff Writer

Asked Tuesday after touring an auto-parts factory about his remark the day before that the centrist Democratic Leadership Council represents "the Republican wing of the Democratic Party," the former Vermont governor did not back away from it. But he dismissed any attempt to draw him into another critique of fellow Democrats with a rhetorical "Merry Christmas, everybody. Who wants to say anything mean on a day like today?"

His response showed more than just the ordinary holiday cheer -- with most campaign activities on hold until Friday, Dean will enter the month before this state's Jan. 27 primary with a comfortable advantage. He leads all rivals here by at least 25 percentage points in polls.

Over three busy days of stump speeches, Dean fended off the latest barrage of criticism from his rivals, while drawing large crowds to each of six town meetings.
...
Dean also received the endorsement of two key New Hampshire unions this week, while rival campaigns stepped up their focus on the front-runner.
...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25883-2003Dec23.html

[Union Thug]

2. Dean was spot on..

As I've said previously, I'm not a Dean supporter (DK is my man), but I'll be damned if I wasn't proud of old Howard for saying it like it is, and maintaining his position as other candidates attacked him. (will someone just smack Lieberman and make him shut the hell up?)

I think that after a few more soldiers die and after a few more pipelines are set ablaze, people will start to realize that the capture of Saddam is totally irrelevant.

[WildClarySage]

7. "will someone just smack Lieberman and make him shut the hell up?)"

yes, the voters soon will.

[rucky]

20. Notice how the Saddam story has already died in the media

Moo.

[thinkahead]

3. interesting bit here

In Franklin, a reputedly conservative town of just over 8,000, his audience was not limited to Democrats. "He might get my vote," said Stephen Langer, 50, who described himself as a Libertarian or a Republican.

After Dean spoke about providing health insurance to all Americans who need it, Langer asked Dean to autograph a doctor's bill for $54,579.84 that the mechanic received for a recent operation and hospital stay.

"I don't usually vote for his party, but some of the things he said tonight made sense," said Langer, who said his insurance will not cover the cost of his care.

[Don Claybrook]

33. A libertarian who wants the government to cover his health care?

I'm glad to see him considering Dean, but he may also wish to consider whether he really wants to call himself a libertarian while hoping for "government handouts".

To be clear, I want government to quit intruding in people's lives, much as libertarians believe. But I also believe in "Big Government". It should provide things like, well, universal health care.

[diamondsoul]

4. Ask and ye shall recieve-

Dean was absolutely RIGHT about the capture of Saddam Hussein.

[JohnKleeb]

6. Dean basher ;)

:hi: DS
I agreed with him too.

[pansypoo53219]

5. a

blown up transpot plane or helicopter.

[sandnsea]

8. Safer does not mean instantly safe

This is a ridiculous argument that is just the kind of thing that has made the left look silly for years. Come on people!!

Dean will only be proved right if 5 years down the road the ME is in a bigger mess than it is today. It definitely could be, but I highly doubt it will be. Which doesn't justify an illegal war, by the way.

We'll be safer with Bush out of the White House too. But all the shit he caused isn't going to be cleaned up the day after he's gone. And I don't want an illegal war to get him out of there either. At least not yet.

Safer, over all, in the long run, in the bigger picture.

[RetroLounge]

11. Thanks for making Bush*'s arguments for him

anything to go against Dean...

[diamondsoul]

21. This one is another I'm compelled-

to disagree with you on. Iraq is more dangerous than ever for American soldiers now that Hussein has been captured.

The Iraqi people who might have had some hesitation to resist American forces because they feared Saddam's return no longer have that to worry about. Now we're just invaders with no purpose. They hate us and that's only going to get worse, the longer we remain in their country, so no, America and Americans are a FAR cry from "safer" in ANY sense of the word.

[stickdog]

44. Israel may be a little safer, though that is debatable. But how can

Americans be safer when Hussein was completely contained and without any means of threatening us and now we have an unstable Iraq?

[bearfartinthewoods]

9. look here for answers....or at least some insight

i would suggest the sections titled:
THE DEMOCRATS AND THE WAR
EFFECT OF SADDAM’S CAPTURE ON THREAT OF TERRORISM
THE WAR: GUARDED OPTIMISM

and specifically:
Some of Dean’s support may be due to his opposition to the war in Iraq, and more Democratic primary voters are looking for an anti-war rather than a pro-war candidate. 39% of Democratic primary voters say they would prefer a nominee who was opposed to the war, compared to 25% who prefer a nominee who supported it. But 33% say the Democratic nominee’s stance on the war in Iraq doesn’t matter to them.

However, among all voters that sentiment is reversed. 41% of registered voters would prefer a Democratic nominee who supported the war, while about half that number -- 22% -- are looking for an anti-war nominee.

<snip>

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/23/opinion/polls/main590018.shtml

[stickdog]

45. Right 41% want a pro-war democrat.

33% are pro-Bush and don't want Bush exposed on the issue, and the other 8% post on DU all day and all night.

[RetroLounge]

10. Everytime someone tells me that we are safer now

I merely ask them what metrics they use to measure safety.

They usually sputter something about Sadaam being evil.

So then I ask them again, how do you measure safety?

They usually sputter something about gassing his people, mass graves etc.

So then I ask them again, how do you measure safety?

They usually sputter something about me being pro-Sadaam.

So then I ask them again, how do you measure safety?

and on it goes...

[edzontar]

12. Dean is owed a public apology

By every freeper, pundit whore, and misguided Dem candidate or candidate supporter who attacked him for stating the self-evident TRUTH about the non-impact of Saddam's capture on threats to our country.

If anything, we are LESS SAFE thanks to the diversion of material, personnel, funds to the criminal intervention in Iraq.

Not to mention our alienation of the rest of the world.

[bearfartinthewoods]

15. welcome to the minority...

it's a shame we need a majority to win the presidency, isn't it?


EFFECT OF SADDAM’S CAPTURE ON THREAT OF TERRORISM AGAINST U.S.:
Increase
31%
Decrease
15%
Stay the same
51%

Most Americans associate the war in Iraq with the war against terrorism. 46% think the war with Iraq is a major part of the war on terror, and an additional 15% think it is a minor part. One in three think the war in Iraq is separate from the terrorism war. This has changed little in recent months.

The public believes other things are likely to reduce the threat of terrorism more than the capture of Saddam Hussein. One would be establishing a stable democracy in Iraq. 41% think establishing a democracy there will make the U.S. safer from terrorism; still, even more, 52%, thinks that will have no effect.

edit to add link
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/23/opinion/polls/main590018.shtml

[edzontar]

17. I don't get your point--Dean told the truth...

If the public believes the lies fed to them by Bush, the whore media, and by lying candidates, then THIS is the problem.

Pardon me for supporting a man who tells the truth and gets crucified for a "strategic" error.

The truth shall set you free, my friend.

And it may even save our once-great nation.

[bearfartinthewoods]

28. your truth is unverified

so it isn't anything more than an opinion, which as the survey says, is not shared by the majority.

somehow the phrase 'the minority opinion shall set you free' doesn't quite have the same...gravitase

[edzontar]

38. So you think we ARE safer?

What evidence do you have?

The alert this week?

The recent troop deaths?

Because * said so?

[Scott Lee]

43. That's "gravitas"

And you have slyly ducked answering the issue, which is the truth of Dean's statement that we are indeed no safer by Saddam's capture.

To wit:

There were three more soldiers killed today in Iraq

There were several car bomb killings, two on the day he was captured

The nations security alert is now Orange.


Safer? Hardly. Dean was right, his destractors were once again wrong, and he continues to climb in the polls.

Oh and by the way, he is still beating Clark in the South by a near 3 to 1 margin.


Have a nice holiday.

[dsc]

19. damn editting computers

Your computer left this out.

This CBS News Poll was conducted among a nationwide random sample of 799 adults interviewed by telephone December 21-22, 2003. 685 registered voters and 244 Democratic Primary Voters were interviewed. The margin of error due to sampling could be plus or minus four percentage points for results based on the entire sample. The error for registered voters could be plus or minus four points, and for Democratic primary voters it could be plus or minus six points.

end of quote

The majority of this polls was conducted bofore the alert was raised. Damn those editting computers.

[bearfartinthewoods]

25. has this alert changed your opinion?

this alert seems to be pretty well ignored, dispite the media.

of course if this is another case of an opinion based on "we're much smarter than the unwashed masses" then i dismiss it entirely since the masses are what will elect our next president.

[dsc]

26. No but it cut my way

so it would have been idiotic for it to have changed my opinion. But if one felt we were safer, this proves we weren't. That surely should change some number of people's opinion. I used to think negative numbers didn't exist then I took 5th grade math.

[stickdog]

46. Leaders lead voters to the truth. Followers read polls & adjust their

messages accordingly.

Our country needs leaders now more than ever.

[diamondsoul]

24. Legit criticism here-

This is not a bash, but an honest issue I have with Gov. Dean (please note, I've taken a self-imposed vow not to assault Dean supporters with venom)

Here's my issue with his statments, yes he absolutely speaks the truth about Hussein's capture doing nothing whatsoever to stop attacks on the troops or on the US, BUT he's still content to continue this occupation for an undetermined length of time. I have a problem with that. I want whomever takes over cleaning up after Bush to have a clear plan to get those troops the hell out of harms way asafp. I don't see that from Gov. Dean.

Granted Kucinich's plan may be overly optimistic, but it's a clearly laid out PLAN which is more than I've seen from anyone else. It's a starting point for negotiations with the UN and possibly NATO, plus other nations to get the help we need, and that's what I'm looking for.

[dsc]

27. He has a plan

but unlike Dennis he doesn't just say the UN will do this and the UN will do that. It will take time to convince the UN to do this and then it will take time for them, once convinced, to get into place. That seems reasonable.

[kaitykaity]

31. Once the US changes leadership and puts the PNAC

criminals in jail, the rest of the world will be chomping
at the opportunity to help us. It'll be like Iran releasing
the hostages as soon as Reagan took the oath of office (as
per the deal they made with Bush pere).

What I mean is, the Bushevics insulted and slammed anybody
who got in their way on the war. It is no wonder that the
countries he slammed want nothing to do with the quagmire.
Get rid of Bush, apologize profusely, and the internationalization
of the Iraqi effort will follow on from there.

[dsc]

32. Put yourself in their position

Why in God's name would you want any part of this tar baby? Our troops are getting killed in droves, we are spending tons of money, and the bad news keeps on keeping on. It will take a long time and a lot of smoothing over to get these people to do this. I sure wouldn't be itching to send my citizens there.

[kaitykaity]

35. 100 billion barrels of oil under that sand . . .

will convince many a recalcitrant ally to participate, if
US is no longer in the grasp of the unilateral imperialists.
(Especially if Peak Oil is as real a threat to Western
industrial countries as I have heard it is.)

I think if we are seen as making a good faith effort to
1) give over control of the place (read the oil) over to
an international governing body; 2) willing to admit just
how big a folly this misadventure has been; and 3) are seen
as not a conquering power but as facilitating genuine
Iraqi self-rule, then I don't think it will be as tough to
get the help we need to stabilize the situation as it would
be in the situation as you describe it, under the continuing
'leadership' of the PNAC criminals.

I'm talking about then. Not now.

[dsc]

36. Do you honestly think Iraq would stand for this?

The oil is theirs not ours and not the worlds. Again, I don't see them coming in and bribing them isn't going to work IMO.

[kaitykaity]

37. Yes, if it were done in such a way as they see the end-game

as benefiting them. If it takes nationalizing
the oil, then so be it.

From what I've read and heard, the Iraqis are very
educated, with a middle class just waiting to be
created/facilitated. Doctors, engineers, the whole
bit.

And I don't think a civilized people would willingly allow
the country to descend into theocratic tyranny if there
were a clear alternative that did not involve American
imperialism.

On edit: in answer to your second point, about how you
'just don't see them coming in', I have explained in
detail how and why we can get the allies to come in once
we change leadership at home.

[deminflorida]

13. It's a difference between Strategically being safer here at home,

or the troops being tactically safer in Iraq. I don't belive anyone is safer here at home or while traveling abroad. Especially since Bush has allocated our forces in the War on Terrorism to the wrong theater of operations in the first place, (i.e. Iraq). This can be thought of as strategic safety.

However, and there is no changing this now, because we are there, like it or not....our soldiers may start to become safer (tactically safer) in the coming months due to the arrest/capture of Saddam Hussein. Eventhough there are still deaths continuing presently. The military will chip away at this insurgency until it no longer exist and that seems to working in one respect, because there seems to be evidence now that the insurgency is running out of leadership and money. The problem the military is having now seems to have shifted to the Islamic miltants that have sprung up in Iraq since the invasion. If they can't get control of the militants lets say in three maybe four months from now, then Dean will have a point, and Bush will have a big problem with how to handle what will be perceived as the Iraq disaster. But if the militant attacks drop off significantly, and they just might...because
the military seems be improving their intelligence capability daily in Iraq...

Then Dean has a problem, and maybe DOA for the general election. "The Nobody is Safer" argument is risky because of all the general spin directions that it can go, but it was the only one Dean could take in the wake of the Saddam capture because the center piece of his campaign has been against the war in Iraq.

The following article sums of the progress that has been achieved since the arrest of Saddam Hussein.

http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2003/12/23122003155506.asp

"Iraq: U.S. Forces Step Up Arrests Of Insurgents In Wake Of Hussein Capture
By Charles Recknagel

U.S. troops continue to round up suspected militants in Iraq as they step up counterterrorism efforts that have been buoyed by the capture of Saddam Hussein. The past 24 hours have seen sweeps catch a senior general in Hussein's former security services and three militants with suspected links to Iraq's current most-wanted man: top Hussein aide Izzat Ibrahim al-Duri.

Prague, 23 December 2003 (RFE/RL) -- U.S. forces say they have had some noteworthy success in gathering up top figures in the Iraqi insurgency thanks to the capture of Saddam Hussein earlier this month.

A senior U.S. commander in Iraq, Lieutenant Colonel William Adamson, told Reuters that in the past 24 hours his troops detained three individuals with ties to the man Washington now most wants to catch -- former top Saddam Hussein aide Izzat Ibrahim al-Duri.

"We detained three individuals in an extremist religious organization with ties to high valued target number six, Izzat Ibrahim al-Duri and attacks in Fallujah, Ramadi, and the Baquba area. Those three individuals are currently in our custody, including the cell leader," Adamson said.

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

[dsc]

14. Maybe if he had said nobody is safer

you would be right. But as my post clearly points out and has been discussed over and over again, Dean said America is not safer. And evidently even Bush agrees with that assessment due to the terror alert.

[edzontar]

16. Three more GIs blown up today....

They were obviously not "safer."

Maybe things will improve for a while, but an occupation is by definition a dangerous thing, and then there is the added factor of increased international anger at the US.

[Zynx]

18. Six or seven soldiers have gotten killed since Saddam was captured.

[diamondsoul]

Cute. "insurgency" in their own f*cking country.

That just pisses me off to no end to hear people refer to Iraqi resistance to American occupation as "insurgency". George Bush is NOT the Iraqi President, no matter how much he wishes it to be so. They are resistance fighters.

Sorry, for the vehemence here. No offense, but I'm completely disgusted by the arrogance I see in some of the statements made about Iraq. As if they owe US respect for ousting the bastard we put in power to begin with! Basically we cleaned up the mess on the floor by dragging in the garden hose and washing everything out the damned door.*sigh*

[diamondsoul]

22. dupe n/t

[Moderator]

42. deminflorida

Per DU copyright
rules, please post
only 4 paragraphs from
the news source.


Thank you.

DU Moderator

[mandyky]

23. dumbya and the GOP will never admit it

for the Dems, I guess it will take a butt whooping in the primaries.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

29. This:

=

[NewYorkerfromMass]

30. an alternate universe

Dean's living in the wrong one.

[edzontar]

39. Better than living in Bush's world..

Where we are MUCH safer since Saddam got his dental exam....

[Monte Carlo]

34. Dean was right about the Iraq war. So was France.

Eleanor Clift said something to that effect in a column. It is not enough to be right. You have to SEEM right, and right now, I don't think Dean's story is going to be an easy sell, at all, to the American public come general election time.

[edzontar]

40. We seem to be in the midst of some pro-war, pro-Bush revisionism

On this thread.

War supporters don't like Dean.

What a surprise!

[windansea]

41. public perception vs being "right"

[dsc]

47. and we just keep getting safer

we had 6 Air France flights cancelled due to security. Thousands of people trying to get to California and other areas by LA stranded in Paris. Yeah I sure like being safer.