CSPAN claiming 11 out of 20 suspects involved in Abramoff

[babylonsister]

scandal are Dems. What's the true story? I read here yesterday NO Dems were involved.

James Grimaldi from WaPo has an article out today; also just spoke to someone
from AP-? Solomon-who confirmed Dorgan returned money.

Edit title for clarity

[Nimrod2005]

1. Who are the 20? where did this number come from?

20 have been named in something earlier?

[babylonsister]

2. I dunno; can't access WaPo. nt

[Nimrod2005]

3. Please explain this if you can people?

Let me tell you...I don't have any problems, NONE, with few Dems going down if they are crooks bastards. Get them the hell out of my life.

[Atman]

4. Dems or republicans, if they're dirty, we don't need 'em.

The trouble is, the GOP will be sure to focus on OUR wrongdoing, as their usual way of dismissing it as okay. After all, "everybody does it, even dems!"

And it will work. Because the Dem leadership is a bunch of spineless pussies who won't stand up to ANYTHING.

[Nimrod2005]

7. Amen..........n/t

[FreedomAngel82]

20. From what I've read/heard

is that Abramoff didn't directly give money to democrats but people he gave money to gave money to democrats. I believe even someone with the gambling group gave money to Reid (Harry). But not Abramoff himself. Isn't the case just on Abramoff himself? :shrug: I believe this is the talking point that George Bush even repeated on some faux interview. He said that Abramoff gave to both parties.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

23. That is my understanding so far as well. Like Dorgan received

money from some of the tribes that Abramoff was bilking, but not from Abramoff.

The Washington Post article yesterday does refer to Reid as having been a part of "team Abramoff" at some point, but doesn't provide specifics.

"...Team Abramoff included former staffers to DeLay, as well as to Sen. Conrad Burns (R-Mont.), head of the Senate Appropriations panel's Interior subcommittee; Rep. Robert W. Ney (R-Ohio), chairman of the House Administration Committee; Rep. John T. Doolittle (R-Calif.), who has served on the key House committee that oversees tribes; and Sen. Harry M. Reid (D-Nev.), now minority leader...."

The Fast Rise and Steep Fall of Jack Abramoff

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/28/AR2005122801588_4.html

[johnaries]

47. Here's the Reid connection, according to Alternet.

http://www.alternet.org/story/29827/

"Sen. Harry Reid: Nevada Democrat, Senate Minority Leader. Sent a letter to Interior Secretary Gale Norton in March 2002 to urge her to reject a casino of the Jena band of Choctaw that would have competed with an Abramoff client. The next day, the Coushatta Tribe of Louisiana issued a $5,000 check to Reid's tax-exempt political group, the Searchlight Leadership Fund. A second Abramoff tribe also sent $5,000 to Reid's group. Reid ultimately received more than $66,000 in Abramoff-related donations from 2001 to 2004. Abramoff also hired as a lobbyist a former Reid legislative aide, Edward Ayoob. Ayoob held a fundraising reception for Reid at the offices of Abramoff's firm, Greenberg Traurig."

"Edward Ayoob: Former veteran legislative aide to Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada, hired as a lobbyist by Abramoff. Reid, who undertook several actions favorable to Abramoff's clients, ultimately received more than $66,000 in Abramoff-related donations from 2001 to 2004. Ayoob held a fundraising reception for Reid at the offices of Abramoff's firm, Greenberg Traurig."

I have to admit, a Louisiana tribe donating to Reid after his letter doesn't sound good. It is possible that these tribe's donations were coincidence. Don't tribes tend to support Dem's over Rep's? I'll do some research, but I'd appreciate it if someone help me out. But I think it should be investigated, along with everything else.

The Ayoob connection is probably nothing. All lobbying firms hire former staffers.

[Nordmadr]

9. Better to clean out the bad apples, even if some ar Dems.

I will not sell my values cheap over politics. If we bias in this regard, then we are hypocrites who never had the values we espouse.

With that said, the info I have seen shows no direct ties to Dem. Represenatatives or Senators, though some indirect donations appear to have occurred, and even still not in the numbers which Republicans received.

Olafr

[sandnsea]

31. My guess is you would jump for joy

Some people would be just as ecstatic at the demise of the Dem Party as they would at the demise of the Reublican Party. I think we're pretty naive around here when we don't recognize that fact.

[HereSince1628]

5. A month ago Josh Marshall at TPM was saying a few Dems

I don't know the truth either, but there are apparently Democrats who recieved funds in an apparently legitimate way from groups that Abramhof had contact with.

IMHO, if you are a republican and you are trying to limit damage, you would try to spin and mix togther those legitimate dealings with the criminal dealings so as to say "everyone does it."

I have faith the truth will come out. DeLay so reworked the K street crowd that they overwhelmingly supported the GOP, I trust the illegal dealings will break the same way.

[Cassandra]

6. Abramoff gave NO money to Dems.

Some in his lobbying firm did, for reasons unknown as did some of his clients, also for unknown reasons. Some Dems have returned the money to remove any possible taint and Lamb is playing it up as if this makes them guiltier. Dorgan received money from some Indian tribes outside of SD but he is on a committee handling Indian issues and there is a big difference between receiving money from people who support the positions you've already taken, and needing to be bribed to take those positions.

[babylonsister]

8. Lamb really WAS playing up the Dems' complicity;

this is making me mad, especially if Lamb is twisting the truth.

[bobbieinok]

59. DUers often claim Lamb always asserts the repub talking points

[Nordmadr]

11. As pointed out here, there is a difference between accepting

what you believe to be legitimate donations toward a cause you are already supporting vs. being bribed. Secondly, putting my criminal mind hat on, if I were trying to make myself look legitimate, I might sprinkle some donations around a bit to avoid the appearance of impropriety.

Furthermore, those other donations to Dems could be brought into play specifically for the use of this tactic should things go bad in an attempt to convince politicians to let it slide to cover their own asses. Crookedness doesn't have to be true. It just has to look true. How many folks out there bother to actually research enough to get facts outside of what is spun on the good old t.v.? Far too few I am afraid.

Olafr

[zanne]

16. "Sprinkle some donations around". Yes.

That makes it easier for someone like Abramoff. If you're involved in any way, you won't snitch. And if you involve both parties in illegal activities, even if the balance of the crime lies with one party, it spreads the blame, thus weakening the case.

[belle]

55. Sounds right. He's a real sociopath.

[eomer]

18. Exactly.

The scandal is not about receiving contributions. It is about taking bribes, which requires two parts, one of which is receiving the money, the other is doing something in return. Brian Lamb needs to put forth a theory about what the Dems did in return for the contributions. Then he will be saying something. Otherwise he is just another RW spinner.

[donkeyotay]

25. C-Spin has been working specially hard since the Sustained propaganda

fall roll-out came circa Thanksgiving.

[radfringe]

60. check out article on opensecrets.com

Summary of contributions:
http://www.capitaleye.org/abramoff.asp

Contributions by recipient:
http://www.capitaleye.org/abramoff_recips.asp

[patdem]

10. Oh, they were twisting..re: Montana and Burns AND the other 2 reps

Burns, she (the lady reporter on the phone) said was 'scrappy' and would probably get over this problem.... of the other R representative she said he gave back money he received from the TRIBE of the other D representative she said he gave back money received from Abramhoff's client which is the fricking TRIBE! So she made it appear that the Dem took from Abramhoff, while the Rep took from the tribe! :grr:

[rainy]

12. Is there a possibility that Abramoff and his cronnies will name

more Dems. to protect their buddies?

[Nordmadr]

15. I would hope the prosecutor will require more than just their

"good" word as evidence. Corroborating evidence, perhaps documentation that they will be required to provide, etc. He won't get a deal if the prosecutors think he is giving them anything but the full truth.

Olafr

[TheDebbieDee]

13. Bryan Dorgan DID return some funds earlier this month.....

He didn't get the funds from Abrahmoff, but he did get the funds directly from an Indian tribe, IIRC.

At the time, Dorgan stated that he was returning these funds to AVOID the appearance of being unduly influenced since he is on some Senate Committee.

[rooboy]

14. Wait a few months & count the orange jump suits.

I think you'll find most of them will have an 'R' monogrammed on the top left breast.

[Cocoa]

17. bullshit

[Debi]

19. The RNC has tried to tie Tom Harkin (D-IA) to the bad apples

Harkin got not direct money from Abramoff, but did get money from his associates and used his sky box 2x (and has reimbursed Abramoff for the use). The RNC is trying to say that Harkin got the $$ as some sort of pay off rather than a straight contribution w/out strings attached, Harkin's staff has flat out said, "Prove it". Harkin wrote letters re: Meskwaki Tribe in Iowa and used language provided by Abramoff associates. That's the alleged tie. How did this help Harkin? None. How did Harkin writing letters to try to un-freeze funds to over 1,300 Meskwaki Tribe members during a leadership dispute help Abramoff? None.

Chuck Grassley (R-IA) seems to be in a little deeper with Abramoff and his associates. He states that he wrote letter or made phone calls in order to help the Isle of Capri Casinos (which have five operations in Iowa). What he doesn't say is that the Isle of Capri corporate offices are in LA (and now moving to MO) and the owners live in FLA...lotta help to Iowa, eh?

[Walt Starr]

21. CSPIN can claim whatever it wants

It's just another mouthpiece for the Repugnant party.

[Roland99]

22. Reid received > $40k through some means. BUT...

What is the difference between what was received by Dems and by Reps? Were Dems offering to vote certain ways on legislation? Were Dems offering contracts to people who gave them money?

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

24. Bribes are bad enough, especially on the scale that Abramoff was

operating.

But the very worst things he is implicated in are so much worse.

ie Mariana Islands, prostitution, forced abortions for mostly Phillipine workers who were misled to go there for supposedly great jobs in the USA.

And then

"...Abramoff had another problem that few people in Washington knew about.

He and another old friend from College Republican days, Adam Kidan, had purchased in 2000 a fleet of Florida casino boats for $147.5 million. By 2004, SunCruz Casinos was bankrupt, and the two men were being sued by lenders for $60 million in loan guarantees, accused of faking a wire transfer for the $23 million they had promised to put into the deal.

Even more serious, Abramoff and Kidan were targets of a Florida federal grand jury investigating the SunCruz wire transfer. And local authorities were probing the gangland-style slaying of the man who had sold them the cruise line, Konstantinos "Gus" Boulis...."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/28/AR2005122801588_5.html

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

26. Found this Dec 20 article re Reid's connection & Question??

"...Sen. Harry Reid: Nevada Democrat, Senate Minority Leader. Sent a letter to Interior Secretary Gale Norton in March 2002 to urge her to reject a casino of the Jena band of Choctaw that would have competed with an Abramoff client. The next day, the Coushatta Tribe of Louisiana issued a $5,000 check to Reid's tax-exempt political group, the Searchlight Leadership Fund. A second Abramoff tribe also sent $5,000 to Reid's group. Reid ultimately received more than $66,000 in Abramoff-related donations from 2001 to 2004. Abramoff also hired as a lobbyist a former Reid legislative aide, Edward Ayoob. Ayoob held a fundraising reception for Reid at the offices of Abramoff's firm, Greenberg Traurig...."

http://www.alternet.org/story/29827/

My Question:

Anyone know how it was said that 11 of 20 suspects are Democrats? Was someone talking, calling in, or something like that?

Or was it from some research or article?

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

27. More Reid, Dec 20 "Don't lump me in with Jack Abramoff," Reid said

"...Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada often led the charge for Democrats this year, as party leaders accused the GOP with fostering a "culture of corruption."

Republicans have turned the tactic on Reid, in one case trying to link Reid to the Abramoff controversy by noting that he took money from Abramoff's firm, its PAC and its Indian casino clients. Reid has received $60,000 from those sources, according to Reid's office.

This month three senators said they would return money tied to Abramoff, who is at the center of a Justice Department investigation into whether his contributions brought him undue influence with lawmakers.

Sen. Byron Dorgan, D-N.D., gave back $67,000 he received from Abramoff associates and clients. Montana Republican Conrad Burns returned $150,000 he received from Abramoff associates and clients and from the lobbyist himself. Montana Democrat Max Baucus said Monday that he will donate to seven tribal colleges the nearly $19,000 he received from Abramoff clients and associates.

On FOX News on Sunday, Reid said he felt "totally at ease that I haven't done anything that is even close to being wrong."

"Don't lump me in with Jack Abramoff," Reid said. "This is a Republican scandal. Don't try to give any of it to me."

However, on Monday, Reid spokeswoman Tessa Hafen said the senator does plan to review all donations tied to Abramoff...."

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nevada/2005/dec/20/519848441.html

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

28. Abramoff gave $127,000 to Republican candidates and nothing to Democrats..

More:

"...Between 2001 and 2004, Abramoff gave more than $127,000 to Republican candidates and committees and nothing to Democrats, federal records show. At the same time, his Indian clients were the only ones among the top 10 tribal donors in the U.S. to donate more money to Republicans than Democrats.

Bush's comment about Abramoff in a Dec. 14 Fox News interview was aimed at countering Democratic accusations that Republicans have brought a ``culture of corruption'' to Washington. Even so, the numbers show that ``Abramoff's big connections were with the Republicans,'' said Larry Noble, the former top lawyer for the Federal Election Commission, who directs the Washington-based Center for Responsive Politics.

``It is somewhat unusual in that most lobbyists try to work with both Republicans and Democrats, but we're already seeing that Jack Abramoff doesn't seem to be a usual lobbyist,'' Noble said..."

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aBTFEkGJUbSI&refer=us

[cyberpj]

33. Then what does the chart in post #32 mean? That shows Dems. nt.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

35. I believe that the charts include money from him AND the Indian

tribes.

And that the $127,000 came directly from Abramoff only to Repugs.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

29. List of recipients of contributions from Abramoff, his wife, & 9 tribes

(From archived NY Times article:
"In Congress, a Lobbyist's Legal Troubles Turn His Generosity Into a Burden" By PHILIP SHENON (NYT) 1239 words
Published: December 19, 2005

"...Chart: ''Political Donations''
Contributions from Jack Abramoff and his wife, nine related Indian tribes and SunCruz Casinos, from 1999 to 2005.


REPUBLICANS

RECIPIENT: J. D. Hayworth
PARTY: R
STATE: Ariz.
TOTAL: $101,620

RECIPIENT: J. Dennis Hastert
PARTY: R
STATE: Ill.
TOTAL: 69,000

RECIPIENT: Thad Cochran
PARTY: R
STATE: Miss.
TOTAL: 65,500

RECIPIENT: Conrad Burns
PARTY: R
STATE: Mont.
TOTAL: 59,590

RECIPIENT: Richard W. Pombo
PARTY: R
STATE: Calif.
TOTAL: 54,500

RECIPIENT: Jim McCrery
PARTY: R
STATE: La.
TOTAL: 52,750

RECIPIENT: John T. Doolittle
PARTY: R
STATE: Calif.
TOTAL: 50,000

RECIPIENT: Don Nickles*
PARTY: R
STATE: Okla.
TOTAL: 40,000

RECIPIENT: Dave Camp
PARTY: R
STATE: Mich.
TOTAL: 35,500

RECIPIENT: John A. Boehner
PARTY: R
STATE: Ohio
TOTAL: 32,500

RECIPIENT: Harold Rogers
PARTY: R
STATE: Ky.
TOTAL: 32,000

RECIPIENT: Bob Ney
PARTY: R
STATE: Ohio
TOTAL: 31,500

RECIPIENT: Tom DeLay
PARTY: R
STATE: Texas
TOTAL: 30,500

RECIPIENT: Billy Tauzin*
PARTY: R
STATE: La.
TOTAL: 30,500

RECIPIENT: Denny Rehberg
PARTY: R
STATE: Mont.
TOTAL: 30,000

RECIPIENT: Charles H. Taylor
PARTY: R
STATE: N.C.
TOTAL: 25,750

RECIPIENT: Trent Lott
PARTY: R
STATE: Miss.
TOTAL: 22,000

RECIPIENT: Roger Wicker
PARTY: R
STATE: Miss.
TOTAL: 21,600

RECIPIENT: Mary Bono
PARTY: R
STATE: Calif.
TOTAL: 21,500

DEMOCRATS


RECIPIENT: Patrick J. Kennedy
PARTY: D
STATE: R.I.
TOTAL: $42,500

RECIPIENT: Patty Murray
PARTY: D
STATE: Wash.
TOTAL: 40,980

RECIPIENT: Charles B. Rangel
PARTY: D
STATE: N.Y.
TOTAL: 36,000

RECIPIENT: Harry Reid
PARTY: D
STATE: Nev.
TOTAL: 30,500

RECIPIENT: Byron L. Dorgan
PARTY: D
STATE: N.D.
TOTAL: 28,000

RECIPIENT: Tom Daschle*
PARTY: D
STATE: S.D.
TOTAL: 26,500

Chart also tracks donations from Mr. Abramoff and from Tribes.

*Has since left Congress.

(Source by Center for Responsive Politics)"

http://select.nytimes.com/search/restricted/article?res=F00911FF3C540C7A8DDDAB0994DD404482

[sandnsea]

30. Did Democrats LAUNDER THE MONEY????

Like Delay did? Did they go on junkets all over the world, time and time and time again? Did their wives and children work for Abramoff or his associates? The list goes on and on. I hope we don't shoot our own again. And then blame them for not fighting hard enough later.

:banghead:

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

36. NO, they didn't launder it. I'm all but positive that the Dems did NOT

go on the junkets or the rest of what you list.

That was the stuff that came directly from Abramoff. Reserved for his Repuke "friends," I believe.

There was another article that said that Dorgan said he first started hearing complaints about Abramoff in 2003 from other lobbyists.

[cyberpj]

32. HERE IS THE WA PO CHART - showing Dems and Repubs.

[0007]

34. Thanks for the real facts cyberpj. As of late c-span has been one

big fucking disappointment. Washington Journal use to be a fairly decent program, now it leans heavy to the right. Brain Lamb leads the parade.

[sandnsea]

37. Do you not understand?

It isn't this simple. You show me where Democrats hid trips, shuffled the money illegally, played the tribes against each other, misrepresenting themselves to other organizations, flat out set up phony charities to funnel money, and all the rest of the stuff Delay and some of these others have done. It isn't as simply as a list of contributions, although the media would like for you to believe it is.

[cyberpj]

42. I agree with you. I just wanted to show the chart and how they are

including Dems in their contributions figures.

[bilgewaterbill]

43. Average Joe Sixpack won't see your differences.

It's going to look like both sides were involved. Equally, or not, it'll be perceived that way.

[sandnsea]

45. Certainly will if we HELP

The problem is too many non-Republicans are more than happy to tarnish any politician and actually prefer the "they're all alike" approach over standing up for the truth. Taking the money isn't the crime. Not reporting it and laundering it are the crimes. Anybody can figure that out, nobody is that stupid.

[bilgewaterbill]

52. "Nobody is that stupid"

Not stupid, they don't care enough to find out the facts. I know what you're saying. However, this case gets too muddled with both parties involved.

[sandnsea]

54. Both parties aren't involved

So there isn't anything to get muddled. Why do you keep repeating that? That's exactly what Rove wants you to do.

[bilgewaterbill]

56. Dude, wake the fuck up!

This isn't about Rove. If it were it would be a lot easier to slam the pugs with. No one is going to read beyond the media's distortion to include Dems in the mess. I konw what you are saying. Just take off the rose-colored glasses and face the facts that the sheeple will see this how its portrayed not how it is. This isn't an election year. No one will look beyond the headlines. Politicians are crooks, BFD!

[sandnsea]

57. Dude, stop helping them!!

Every time you go anywhere near the idea that both parties are involved, you dillute the effort to make Delay and the rest of them accountable and distinctively corrupt. "Politicians are crooks." Yep, there you go again. I've read enough posts in DU the last few days to know that's exactly the way this is going to end up because too many on the left are going to jump on the "hang the DLC Dems" whether any Dems deserves it or not. And newsflash, YES, this IS an election year.

[0007]

49. Send this in to Brain Lamb at c-span

[seabeyond]

38. surely it isnt just if you received a donation. that isnt

what this is ... is it. be it repug or dem, it has to be more than just receiving doantion from abramoff or even less, an extension of the man.

i find it amazing to have gone from a repug scandal to more dems in it now than repugs

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

39. NO, it isn't. It has not gone to more Dems. Unfortunately it is a very

complicated, ugly, unpleasant story to read about.

But in order to be able to refute the Repuke spin, we have to learn a fair amount about it, IMHO.

Just take lots of showers after reading about the sleaze factor.

I can only read pieces of it at a time, because in total it is so disturbing.

[seabeyond]

40. i have read some. seems to be huge, little at a time coming out

always have to read so much to figure out where the repug lie is.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

41. I know, I know. We need Yoda and the force and more Jedi

warriors to help!!!

[johnaries]

44. There were some employees of Abramoff's clients who

donated to Dem's. 2 degrees of separation from Jack A-off. Jack only gave directly to Repukes.

But, I agree that if any Dem's are guilty they need to go down, too.

[Hello_Kitty]

46. Just because you receive money from a lobbyist

Doesn't mean you are steeped in everything he's involved in. Abramoff has ties with the Repukes going WAAAAAY back. He's GOP all the way. Any Dems who got money from him should give it back, whether it's tainted or not. Those who are in deeper with him should be dealt with as harshly as the Repugs 'cuz we got no time for this nonsense. That's all.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

48. I think we should assume no Dems were involved in the skullduggery when we

discuss it especially with the other side, until and unless we see proof otherwise.

Being nice, being reasonable only encourages bullies, ie Repukes.

And I seriously doubt any Dems are in it deep. If they are, they will be the exception, not the rule.

Unlike the ruling Pukes.

[Doctor_J]

50. It wouldn't be surprising if Jack used this to try and ruin

the Dems. He is really a partisan hack, and I don't think he would take a plea if it were going to hurt the GOP. He'll do what he can to smear the Dems, and then Smikr will pardon him.

[0007]

51. c-span should be ashamed of themselves for putting out such

garbage.

[WinkyDink]

53. The courts will sort this out.

THEN let anyone try to spin it.
Sure, these big criminals hedge their bets, but I'D bet the Dems just got chump change.

[KingFlorez]

58. The money flowed all around

There are only a few people being investigated for shady dealings. Some people took donations, but didn't play games like DeLay and Burns.