Kathy Dopp: ""ES&S is a Good voting machine company - NOT like Diebold"

[FogerRox]

I kid you not. The Lady from http://uscountvotes.org/

Just for SOME of the ways that ES&S is different than Diebold include:

1. Tight secure operating system as a base (unlike Diebold, Sequoia, and some others).

2. INDEPENDENTLY auditable DREs because they use an open source bar code on their paper rolls and make an open source system that any geek can build to audit the paper rolls (OK I still hate DREs because the majority of voters never take the extra step to verify a stupid paper roll)

3. They put their money into R&D rather than lobbyists and have responded to the criticisms of voting activists by improving their systems.

4. ES&S sells a really good optical scan system that is easier for election officials to use and their AutoMARK ballot printer is ideal for disabled (in fact much more disabled friendly than DREs) and it is ideal for foreign languages so no extra ballots need to be pre-printed in foreign languages.

Note: It is not logically correct to say that just because my brother works for one company and I work for another company, that means that the ethics and products of the two companies must be similar.

I have spoken with the chief engineer and one of the developers at ES&S and they were even considering joining the open voting consortium and making their source code open source but the open voting consortium demanded that they phase out the paper rolls and they decided that they couldn't phase out a product that already has a widespread customer base.

You are attacking the wrong entity to go after ES&S

Kathy describes a voting machine demo of ES&S equipment--

ES&S did negotiate with the Open Voting Consortium and does make a VVPAT for its DRES that is far superior to Diebold's VVPAT (and I have seen and tested both) and ES&S does make a demonstrated system to recount them.

I have personally seen a demonstration of not only the ES&S VVPAT paper rolls he claims do not exist because he says they are not certified (BTW each state certifies independently, plus there is a NASED certification and ITA testing and he doesn't specify), but I have also personally, with my own eyes, seen the system for counting their paper rolls.

I personally spoke with two of the technical developers at ES&S and I personally arranged with them to speak to the president of the Open Voting Consortium. And I personally spoke with the President of the Open Voting Consortium both before and after his conversations with ES&S.

And again, with the scoop:

The developers at ES&S (and I have spoken with their lead developer) has assured me that their bar codes are "open source" as opposed to the bar codes of Diebold and other DRE vendors, and that they make available all the open source programs to any county or state who requests them to have their local geeks of choice build a system to INDEPENDENTLY audit their paper rolls.

But then I have taken things out of context. SO I ask the reader to go thru this thread and decide for themselves. Is this just a bit unusual?
Or is the lady from uscountvotes bouncing off the walls?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x404972#405557

[zulchzulu]

1. Got Paper Trail?

Actually ES&S was a spinoff of Diebold. Same Microslop Access database talking to an IIS network that can be easily hacked... We need a REAL open Source voting application that runs on Linux and has a paper trail....easy...just not easy to get around corrupt politicos that get money from Bill Gates... and no, not Oracle either....that's a closed system too.

[FogerRox]

2. sounds a bit like Accupol

We need a REAL open Source voting application that runs on Linux and has a paper trail....easy

Same Microslop Access database talking to an IIS network

IIRC Kathy said that the ES&S opscanners didnt use Microslop (that is so funny) And Neil Agreed with her on that.

But then-- IIRC ES&S, Sequoia & Diebold use removable media on the opscans-- right? Like maybe PCMCIA slots, that can accept a wireless card---

[zulchzulu]

15. Removable media security is an interesting issue

There needs to be a redundant copy of whatever the voting results are tabulated electronically besides the paper voting receipt that must also be available.

Sneaking off with removable media and slipping in tampered media with fixed results is just too easy...and obviously one way to cheat.

[FogerRox]

21. excellent post zulchzulu--

IIRC the Avante Vote Trakker DRE-- DR Chung brought one to a demo we hosted in Newark NJ in July, has a ballot input that gets sealed after loading the ballot. The DRE then burns a CD-ROM of results. Which is read by a PC tabulator workstation.

Gee-- do ya think thats a bit different?

[Tiggeroshii]

10. Id ond't know exactly what a closed source is..

I feel kinda lagging behind the discussion because of it, but can you explain it to me?

[zulchzulu]

14. Closed Source vs. Open Source argument

The excuse by Diebold that their voting software is closed source because it's Closed Source is bogus.

Essentially, the software used is by Microsoft, using Microsoft Access and using a programming language called ASP and Visual Basic to "talk" to IIS (Internet Information System) software via a browser. All that would need to be turned over to authorities would be the Access files, the VB files and any other tertiary documents that work with the software. There would be no need to have Microsoft release their source code that makes the applications.

It would be like if someone asked you for a Word document, you would say you couldn't because you don't want to give away your copy of Word.

As for Open Source, there are ways to make voting database software that would be secure and use software tools where you could open ALL source code to examine the software engineering strategies and so forth. The software could be delivered on the Linux operating system, which is open source as well. It would be completely transparent, independent and stable...as well as not affiliated with any corporate entity.

[Tiggeroshii]

23. thanks! n/t

[Bill Bored]

3. I would like to know YOUR opinion Roger.

She has already taken some controversial positions and upset some people on a personal level. But I believe every argument should be judged on its own merits, don't you?

As far as vendors, nobody should ever trust any of them! They're in business to make money, even if they're not interested in stealing elections, so why should they be viewed any differently than used car salesmen?

Unfortunately, if we're going to reject the DRE model, which is in urgent need of rejection for so many reasons, we need a solution for accessible paper ballots, and for better or worse, ES&S has embraced the Automark. So that puts them in the running as a vendor as far as I'm concerned, but of course none of this is a substitute for independent audits.

As far as open source bar codes, well, they're better than the other kind, but the auditing really should be conducted by human eyes and hands and the humans should not have to be "geeks" to count VVPATs. That kind of elitism can be dangerous. I doubt Ms. Dopp could design a bar code reader from scratch on her own (even though there are engineers who could), yet she probably considers herself to be among the geeky because she has a Math degree.

She did get the random audit thing right though, by choosing the hypergeometric distribution. Is this an example of a broken watch being right twice a day? Or are we on 24-hour time?

[FogerRox]

5. Ok-- not pulling any punches

I think a little bit more decorum should be employed by a certain young lady from uscountvotes before she gets banned from DU. And drives away some newbies, who, today, seemed to be quite knowledgable.

Kathy has MA in math IIRC, she does Algebra very well. I dont, I dont do Algebra very well. In fact -- I dont do Algebra. When it come to ALgebra, I defer to the math heads. My Father does Algebra, he has a PHD, and has written some books, one I recall, on differential equations. YOu know- the shape of the universe-- and such.

I know I shouldnt do Algebra. So I dont.

[AntiCoup2K4]

4. Only Chuck Hagel knows for sure

He used to run the company. Until he decided to be a senator, at which point 80% of the state's votes were counted on ES&S machines.

Guess who won the election......

[tritsofme]

9. Hot damn, imagine a Republican winning in Nebraska?

Hell, I think Hagel is better that Nelson in a lot of ways.

[Al-CIAda]

12. It was the political shocker of the cycle. How could the polls be so off?

[kansasblue]

13. see online book at www.blackboxvoting.com

see online book at www.blackboxvoting.com for info about Hagel, ESS and concerns

[BeFree]

6. Interesting

One has to wonder... would the e-voting vendors try to influence opinions about certain equipment?

Optical scan looks like it may be the best of the worst, and will be in widespread use this next year.

The auditing of the paper ballots will be the telling point of elections, but audits will face a terrific political battle in nearly every locale.

I'd rather see elections reformed and simplified so that the use of paper ballots, counted by human eye, becomes SOP. Until then, put on your auditing hats and start counting.

[FogerRox]

7. my little task force had a meeting with a vendor-

I was asked-- if we get the contract-- do you want a job?


But I cant help but think what could be done by a vendor contacting a more--- ahh- how should a I say it--

a more prominate member of the election reform community. A more nationally known, vocal member of the election reform community.

I dont think this is what happened today, in the thread I mentioned. I think Kathy just went overboard, as she is wont to do. Kathy is one of the most passionate people I knew here.

But writing posts, is not Algebra.

[BeFree]

11. Whoa!

I was not implying anyone was selling out. Not that the vendors wouldn't be looking!

No, it was just a way to say how anyone so deep into getting a solution to our problems might begin rating one company over another... kinda the best of the worst kinda scenario. And that some recent communications might influence their choice of words or framing.

Still, paper ballots is my choice no matter what anyone else says. If they have to be scannned to make a complicated count easier, well....

[Febble]

16. Well, as a Brit

I have to agree.

Paper ballots would be my choice, hand-counted as we do here (UK). But the problem seems to be the complexity of your ballots, which seems to be a result of a possibly admirable constitution that lets voters actually legislate, rather than simply elect a legislature. Weird, but there it is.

And suppose if you are going to legislate by plebiscite you probably can't avoid a complex electronic system to figure out what people actually want.

The reason our elections are simple (and the reason that we can easily hand count our paper ballots) is that all we do is elect a member of parliament. The MPs do the rest.

[FogerRox]

17. BEFREE- I know you werent-- see my thoughts post #7

I think If I was writing something on this topic I might use qualifying terms, like:
-"In the current HAVA environment"
-"Starting with a paper ballot, and then counting them by computer"
-"paper ballot are the best option under HAVA"

Instead of- ES&S is a good company-- and the bit about- If one brother is bad, it doesnt mean the other is bad.

I mean its so clear what BOB & TODD have been up to for most of their adult lives. Gesse la-wesse.

[AtomicKitten]

8. Bev Harris begs to differ

I REALLY hate it when people give credence to these Republican cheat-machines.


http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/042804Landes/042804landes.html

[FogerRox]

18. Here Kitty, Kitty, Kitty-- Sorry-- bad joke-- Letterman does it a lot

This is my favorite part from that link you left--

But, is there any real difference between Diebold and ES&S? Perhaps not.

Bob Urosevich is currently president of Diebold. Todd is vice president of ES&S. In 1999, American Information Systems (AIS), purchased Business Records Corporation (BRC) to become ES&S. AIS (1980) was formerly Data Mark (1979). Both AIS and Data Mark were founded by the brothers Urosevich. In 2002, Diebold acquired Global Election Systems. Global was founded in 1991, which itself acquired the AccuVote system the same year. Bob Urosevich is a past president of Global.

[AtomicKitten]

19. meow my ass - ha, ha - smell this

Incestuous relationships

Increasingly, investigative writers seeking an explanation have looked to Diebold’s history for clues. The electronic voting industry is dominated by only a few corporations – Diebold, Election Systems & Software (ES&S) and Sequoia. Diebold and ES&S combined count an estimated 80% of U.S. black box electronic votes.

In the early 1980s, brothers Bob and Todd Urosevich founded ES&S’s originator, Data Mark. The brothers Urosevich obtained financing from the far-Right Ahmanson family in 1984, which purchased a 68% ownership stake, according to the Omaha World Herald. After brothers William and Robert Ahmanson infused Data Mark with new capital, the name was changed to American Information Systems (AIS). California newspapers have long documented the Ahmanson family’s ties to right-wing evangelical Christian and Republican circles.

In 2001, the Los Angeles Times reported, “. . . primarily funded by evangelical Christians – particularly the wealthy Ahmanson family of Irvine – the institute’s $1-million annual program has produced 25 books, a stream of conferences and more than 100 fellowships for doctoral and postdoctoral research.” The chief philanthropists of the Discovery Institute, that pushes creationist science and education in California, are Howard and Roberta Ahmanson.

According to Group Watch, in the 1980s Howard F. Ahmanson, Jr. was a member of the highly secretive far-Right Council for National Policy, an organization that included Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North, Major General John K. Singlaub and other Iran-Contra scandal notables, as well as former Klan members like Richard Shoff. Ahmanson, heir to a savings and loan fortune, is little reported on in the mainstream U.S. press. But, English papers like The Independent are a bit more forthcoming on Ahmanson’s politics.

“On the right, figures such as Richard Mellon Scaife and Howard Ahmanson have given hundreds of millions of dollars over several decades to political projects both high (setting up the Heritage Foundation think-tank, the driving engine of the Reagan presidency) and low (bankrolling investigations into President Clinton’s sexual indiscretions and the suicide of the White House insider Vincent Foster),” wrote The Independent last November.

The Sunday Mail described an individual as, “. . . a fundamentalist Christian more in the mould of U.S. multi-millionaire Howard Ahmanson, Jr., who uses his fortune to promote so-called traditional family values . . . by waving fortunes under their noses, Ahmanson has the ability to cajole candidates into backing his right-wing Christian agenda.

Ahmanson is also a chief contributor to the Chalcedon Institute that supports the Christian reconstruction movement. The movement’s philosophy advocates, among other things, “mandating the death penalty for homosexuals and drunkards.”

The Ahmanson family sold their shares in American Information Systems to the McCarthy Group and the World Herald Company, Inc. Republican Senator Chuck Hagel disclosed in public documents that he was the Chairman of American Information Systems and claimed between a $1 to 5 million investment in the McCarthy Group. In 1997, American Information Systems purchased Business Records Corp. (BRC), formerly Texas-based election company Cronus Industries, to become ES&S. One of the BRC owners was Carolyn Hunt of the right-wing Hunt oil family, which supplied much of the original money for the Council on National Policy.

In 1996, Hagel became the first elected Republican Nebraska senator in 24 years when he did surprisingly well in an election where the votes were verified by the company he served as chairman and maintained a financial investment. In both the 1996 and 2002 elections, Hagel’s ES&S counted an estimated 80% of his winning votes. Due to the contracting out of services, confidentiality agreements between the State of Nebraska and the company kept this matter out of the public eye. Hagel’s first election victory was described as a “stunning upset” by one Nebraska newspaper.

Hagel’s official biography states, “Prior to his election to the U.S. Senate, Hagel worked in the private sector as the President of McCarthy and Company, an investment banking firm based in Omaha, Nebraska and served as Chairman of the Board of American Information Systems.” During the first Bush presidency, Hagel served as Deputy Director and Chief Operating Officer of the 1990 Economic Summit of Industrialized Nations (G-7 Summit).

Bob Urosevich was the Programmer and CEO at AIS, before being replaced by Hagel. Bob now heads Diebold Election Systems and his brother Todd is a top executive at ES&S. Bob created Diebold’s original electronic voting machine software. Thus, the brothers Urosevich, originally funded by the far Right, figure in the counting of approximately 80% of electronic voting in the United States.

Like Ohio, the State of Maryland was disturbed by the potential for massive electronic voter fraud. The voters of that state were reassured when the state hired SAIC to monitor Diebold’s system. SAIC’s former CEO is Admiral Bill Owens. Owens served as a military aide to both Vice President Dick Cheney and former Defense Secretary Frank Carlucci, who now works with George H.W. Bush at the controversial Carlyle Group. Robert Gates, former CIA Director and close friend of the Bush family, also served on the SAIC Board.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0225-05.htm

[FogerRox]

20. Ahmansons dad got started foreclosing mortages

during the Depression- what a legacy--

[AntiCoup2K4]

22. Hmmm.... maybe a death penalty for drunkards wouldn't be so bad......

....as long as THIS drunkard was the first one sentenced....