Is anyone else here a "Founding Father Democrat"?

[populistdriven]

After reading the thread on all the quotes of the founding fathers I wish I could join the "Founding Father Democrats" but sadly they don't exist.

Here is a compilation of that thread:

Now before you get all ready call on Jesus to smite me, I have nothing against Christians, In fact, I am married to one.

But there is a pervasive mythology about US history that needs to be cleared up.

The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense founded on the Christian religion. The 'Christian Nation' is a myth.

If you are a Christian then you shouldn't lie about this. After you read the following you should realize that stating otherwise is in fact, not telling the truth.

If you believe this, like I once did, you could not be MORE wrong about this country being founded on judeo-christian ideals.

To all of those who believe that our founding fathers founded this country on religion, most notably Christianity... please re-think your position. These are the same founding fathers who are viewed as great men, who are quoted unequivocally and whose ideas and laws are considered the best-laid of any in history.


Thomas Jefferson was a Deist. A Deist according to Webster's is (1) The belief in the existence of a God on purely rational grounds without reliance on revelation or authority; especially in the 17th and 18th centuries. (2) The doctrine that God created the world and its natural laws, but takes no further part in its functioning. Thomas Jefferson wrote his own version of the Bible (The Jefferson Bible). It TOTALLY removes all accounts of the divinity of Christ and all of the miracles - including the virgin birth. Benjamin Franklin was raised Episcopalian, but was also a Deist. John Adams was raised a Congregationalist, but later became a Unitarian. Here are what some of the other founders had to say about it:

Thomas Jefferson: "I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

"in this age, there is no substitute for Christianity...That was the religion of the founders of the republic, and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants."

"The Christian god can be easily pictured as virtually the same as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of the people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."

"The authors of the gospels were unlettered and ignorant men and the teachings of Jesus have come to us mutilated, misstated and unintelligible"

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ."

Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825:

"It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it (the Apocalypse), and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams."

Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814:

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."

Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823:

"The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter... But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors."

Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789:

"I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians."

Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800:

"They believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion."

Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813:

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."

Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814:

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

From Jefferson’s biography:

"...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, ‘Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,’ which was rejected ‘By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination."


George Washington: "The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy."


John Adams: "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

"...Thirteen governments thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."


Thomas Paine: Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.

"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)."


James Madison: "What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."


Abraham Lincoln: The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."


Lastly, and most significantly, Article 11 of The Treaty of Tripoli, ratified and unanimously approved by the Senate in 1797, and signed by John Adams: "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion..."


These men were not athiests, they believed in God and country and they founded our country but they knew that religion and politics should never mix (they were secularists) because it could lead to the downfall of our nation, so stop throwing that "America was founded on Christian beliefs" crap at us... it's just NOT TRUE.

[waiting for hope]

1. AMEN!

Thank you for posting......and taking the time to do the research. I'm bookmarking this for later use...:yourock:

[Drum]

2. Yes! I definitely am!

I wish that more people read these things...we ought to stay in closer touch with the Founders' writings and philosophies while attempting to reassemble our tattered democracy.

Good post! Kicked and recommended!

:kick:

[Poet Lariat]

3. K & R and bookmarking this thread

Great research. Wonder what our founding fathers would say about the Moon/Bush connections....Hmmmm.

[DKStreet]

4. Most definitely

Which is why these gentlemen wouldn't get elected dog-catcher in this day and age.

[wryter2000]

6. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[radio4progressives]

5. Kicked, Nominated And BookMarked! Great research! n/t

[wryter2000]

7. Also, K&R and bookmarked. Thanks n/t

n/t

[melody]

8. Many of our best liberal minds are American Revolution historians

Our founders were brave people with great vision. And let me put a good word in for John Adams, who gets very wrongly
cheated out of his primary role in our independence.

We also need to remember that these men were writing these things at a time when doing so was dangerous to their
lives. I'm not at all surprised the fundie Christians misquote them and misrepresent their intent
-- the fundies are in league with the modern Tories.

And before someone comes along with the old "they were all land-owning, slave-holders" saw, allow me to point out that they
were not. Two of the primary founding fathers (Adams and Franklin) were staunch abolitionists who never owned a single
slave at any time. If we had listened to these men, slaves would have been emancipated at the Declaration of Independence.
Franklin, in fact, is believed by some historians to have been an escaped Scots-Irish slave. Adams was a constant voice
for the common person against "the proprietor's petty tyranny".

[jackster]

9. COUNT ME A PROUD FFDem

n/t

[CrispyQ]

10. Another FFD here!

Kicked & bookmarked.

:yourock:

[ieoeja]

11. To heck with the quotes.

The kingdoms of Europe were Christian nations. The kings ruled by divine right. Their mandate came from God above.

Conversely, those who govern the United States have, since its very inception, received their mandate from we the people.

That is why Muslim rulers could treat with the USA under Islamic law, but not with European kingdoms (a fact of Islamic law that helped confuse the issue in the middle east during the Crusades; would St Louis have invaded Cairo had he known that Cairo tried to prevent Damascus from doing the very things that led to the Crusades?).

[many a good man]

12. I'm a FFDem because some things never change

We must never let go of what generations have fought for! The people can never stop fighting for their rights. We must be guided by the light of reason.

[Guaranteed]

13. Sing it! nt

[GatoLover]

14. Christianity in Colonial America and American history

It's well known that Jefferson was a deist but I think most of the other founders were orthodox Christians of one sort of another. (Not sure about Franklin.) Certainly religion was the primary motivation for many of the colonists coming to America, and most historians I've read credit Puritanism with a profound and longlasting influence on American culture. It seems to me that the genius of the founders was the insight that divorcing religion from the state would actually promote religion more than any positive effort on the part of government ever could.

[catzies]

15. Welcome to DU, GatoLover! And you're so right, when religion & govt.

are separate, it's better for each of them and better for all of us! :hi:

[GatoLover]

16. Thanks, catzies. It's no coincidence

that the United States is one of the most religious countries in the world, far more so than any European country. Religion thrives under the establishment clause. (Of course, the free exercise clause doesn't hurt!)

[Barak And Roll]

17. Establishment Clause

Without the Establishment Clause, there could be no Free Exercise Clause. If government is allowed to establish a national religion of any form, you can't possibly practice religion freely.

[GatoLover]

23. That doesn't follow

England, for example, has an established church -- the Church of England -- with the monarch as its head. Nonetheless there is free exercise of all other religions. My belief is that, while entanglement of religion and government doesn't by itself prevent free exercise, it discourages it even among members of the established church. Let me phrase it this way: I think religion does better, and is more popular, when it is disengaged from the government.

[Barak And Roll]

26. Historically speaking...

England is a good example now, but for a long time religious persecution was the norm in England. Remember why the puritans came here in the first place, not to mention the mass murder of protestants under the reign of Mary I. Historically, religious freedom in practice is a relatively new concept, taken in no small part from the writings of John Locke. Jefferson and the American founders went further than Locke suggesting that religious freedom meant not only choosing what religion to practice without government influence, but whether or not to practice religion at all.

[ninkasi]

18. Excellent thread...

well researched, and very much appreciated. Jefferson, Adams, Madison, and the rest, would be absolutely appalled by the influence of Falwell, Robertson, and the rest on American government. Sad to think we've regressed in this respect. Thank you so much, bushmeat, for posting. I am proudly a FFD.

[mcscajun]

19. Yes, I'm another FFD!

Have been trying to tell people that stuff periodically in other forums.

It's amazing how few people know this stuff.

[we can do it]

20. Me, Too

This is great info to pass on, thank you.

[ChickMagic]

21. Definitely founding fathers Dem

Thomas Paine was an atheist.
Some were fundies such as Patrick Henry.
I identify with John Adams, TJ, and Tom Paine.

[Kazak]

22. Okay, so I've been using some of these quotes on some fundies...

and given them plenty of links which back up the quotes, but now they say they want "credible historic evidence" that these men said these things, and the links I've given them aren't "credible". :puke: What to do?

[populistdriven]

24. They can go to the public library and ask for those documents

[Kazak]

25. That's exactly what I told them!

:thumbsup: