Who are the DiNOs?

[Don1]

I posted this to another thread where many cannot see it. So, I am reposting it as an op with some points of discussion.

Senator DiNOs
Baucus, Max (DLC and bad voting record)
Bayh, Evan (DLC and bad voting record)
Byrd, Robert (bad voting record)
Carper, Thomas (DLC and bad voting record)
Conrad, Kent (DLC and bad voting record)
Landrieu, Mary (DLC and bad voting record)
Lieberman, Joseph (DLC and bad voting record)
Lincoln, Blanche (DLC and bad voting record)
Nelson, Ben (DLC and bad voting record)
Pryor, Mark (DLC and bad voting record)
Salazar, Ken (bad voting record)

Representative DiNOs
Berry, Marion (Blue Dog and bad voting record)
Bishop, Sanford D. Jr. (Blue Dog and bad voting record)
Boren, Dan (Blue Dog and bad voting record)
Boswell, Leonard L. (Blue Dog and bad voting record)
Boyd, Allen (Blue Dog and bad voting record)
Cooper, Jim (Blue Dog and bad voting record)
Costa, Jim (Blue Dog and bad voting record)
Cramer, Robert E. Jr. (Blue Dog and bad voting record)
Cuellar, Henry (bad voting record)
Davis, Lincoln (Blue Dog and bad voting record)
Edwards, Chet (bad voting record)
Gordon, Bart (bad voting record)
Herseth, Stephanie (Blue Dog, DLC, and bad voting record)
Holden, Tim (Blue Dog and bad voting record)
Marshall, Jim (bad voting record)
Matheson, Jim (Blue Dog and bad voting record)
McIntyre, Mike (Blue Dog, DLC, and bad voting record)
Melancon, Charlie (Blue Dog and bad voting record)
Mollohan, Alan B. (bad voting record)
Ortiz, Solomon P. (bad voting record)
Peterson, Collin C. (Blue Dog and bad voting record)
Ross, Mike (Blue Dog and bad voting record)
Scott, David (Blue Dog, DLC, and bad voting record)
Skelton, Ike (bad voting record)
Tanner, John S. (Blue Dog and bad voting record)
Taylor, Gene (Blue Doh and bad voting record)

Here is how I got these lists. I went to a place where voting record is determined and scored. These guys were all very close to being Republican. In fact, so was Murtha. I took Murtha out of the list of DiNOs because of his recent conversion away from the Dark Side. All of the Representatives here have a worse voting record than Lieberman. Half of the Senators here have a worse record than Lieberman. The other half have nearly as bad a record.

It is very interesting that the corporatist DLC is so close to running with the fascist Republicans. It is also interesting that the Blue Dog Democrats (who have come out to say they are conservatives) all vote nearly like Republicans, too.

So, if you want to make a term like "DiNO," then these are the guys.

[ticapnews]

1. Which site did you use?

There are a couple of sites I know of and they score things very differently.

[liberalnurse]

2. This issue was brought up yesterday.....

The tone of the post was not well recieved......I would have to agree with their assessment. As activist and the Democratic base, we should keep the focus positive, to encourage our Democratic leader..... not eat them for lunch.

[Don1]

4. There is no sense in encouraging those

who are as bad as Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman.

If you encourage them, then they think that voting to remove habeas corpus, extraordinary rendition, the Patriot Act, the Bankruptcy Bill, and staying the course are all okay with you.

[salin]

22. we need both... centrists and progressives

we need control of congress to even hope to stop the damage being wrought on our country. We need progressives who can garner media attention to criticize every last policy proposed by bushco that trumps the health/wealth/security of most americans. The former lets us take control... the latter gets the public to shift away not only from Bush - but from the outrageous policies supported up and down the ranks of the GOP ... so that the party implodes. Purging either part of the party simply makes delay and rove's dream, of creating a fifty year one-party majority rule government, closer to reality.

[stray cat]

27. Agreed

If the progressives abandon the democratic party - we lose. If the DINOs (moderates) are rejected by the democratic party they will come up with an independent candidate or vote for the republicans (like we seem to be urging them to do)and....we lose.

[invictus]

148. The Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party

We need Democrats, real progressives. The conservatives have their own party.

[Don1]

3. Progressive Punch

Like I said, I was just taking the bottom of the barrel here. Skimming slime off the bottom.

[BlueEyedSon]

7. This site is pretty good, you have to do your own ranking though

http://www.adaction.org/votingrecords.htm

[liberalnurse]

10. You can look at this recent duplicate post

wherein this very unsightly topic on Democrats has been perceived as FLAMERBAIT.......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2302895

[Don1]

15. Flamebait by some...

nominated by others.

Conservative Democrats and some moderates will call it flamebait.

Not true progressives, though.

[salin]

23. bah

I am very progressive - and I call it flamebait.

[MrBenchley]

38. Wonder if you used a La Prensa ranking

If Ken Salazar and Solomon Ortiz would be considered DINOs.

Wonder what the Woman's National Democratic Club thinks of Mary Landrieu, Blanche Lincoln and Stephanie Herseth?

[Don1]

51. Wonder if you could stop making apologies for the DLC. n/t

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

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[Don1]

68. So you admit that you love the DLC?

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

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[Don1]

99. Yeah, especially all our

"ratfucking" that you keep talking about, whatever that is.

:rofl:

[MrBenchley]

107. Our? So you're not a Democrat but a Green party member....

Wow, talk about a DINO....

[Don1]

109. I'm not a Green.

I am not a McCarthy list of the "far left."

[MrBenchley]

113. You sure said "our" when I said Green party

And like McCarthy, you got an enemies list and you distort what critics say.

[Don1]

116. No I didn't.

Your the one with a list of progressives, calling them "far left." That is your McCarthyism.

[MrBenchley]

117. Yuo sure did...and your enemies list kicks off your thread

[Don1]

119. You have Greens and progressives on your McCarthy list. n/t

[MrBenchley]

120. Your enemies list kicks off the thread and you distort what critics say

As for Greens, they can go fuck themselves....their own party is toxic to voters and nothing but a Republican dirty trick.

[Don1]

123. You called me a Green in typical McCarthy style. n/t

[MrBenchley]

124. You distort what critics say and you got an enemies list...

I said the Green party was ratfucking the board, and you referred to that as "our" ratfucking....

I don't give much of a rats' ass whether you are or aren't. You sure ain't no ornament for us Democrats with this McCarthyite crap.

[Don1]

126. You are making enemy lists of Greens, progressives, and me. n/t

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

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[MrBenchley]

36. So you picked an obscure far left wing site

What about those of us Democrats who don't want to live life based on what three bobos in Califronia think?

[Name removed]

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[MrBenchley]

59. It's an obscure far left site run by three bobos in California

Who gives a fuck?

"It's not communist, dude."
Didn't say it was...nice to see that progressive "honesty" on display again.

Tell us again why you kept John Murtha out? After all, as far as I know he's still four-square for school prayer and amending the Constitution to ban flag burning.

[Name removed]

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[MrBenchley]

72. Far left

This gobbledygook is their scoring system...

"After going through a number of steps and gyrations, we came up with a list of six hard-core progressive United States Senators (6% of that body) and 36 hard-core progressive United States Representatives (about 8-9% of that body). The algorithm that we've used to come up with these progressive scores is that we take ANY VOTE in which a majority of those progressives--so in the House say, if there were no absences, it would be 19 of the 36--voted in contradistinction to a majority of the Republican caucus then that vote then qualifies for the database."
By any measure that's far left.

[Don1]

101. Your argument is smobbledygook. n/t

[Don1]

111. You don't know what far left means.

Many conservatives and moderates don't know the full political spectrum of the left. Far left is very different than how you are using it.

[BlueEyedSon]

5. Seconded: which site? nt

[Don1]

8. Already answered the question.

You must have just missed it by asking while I was answering.

Progressive Punch.

[BlueEyedSon]

11. yep, you were mighty quick! nt

[stray cat]

6. How many are from conservative or moderate states

How well do they represent their constituents. I would expect a democrat in nebraska may not be as acceptable to progressives as one in California. However, they may be the most progressive democrats a conservative state may accept. Politicians represent their constituents not the entire nation.

[BlueEyedSon]

9. They represent their DONORS, silly!

[Don1]

83. Yup. It's about the donors.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2303592&mesg_id=2305861

[Don1]

12. Doesn't matter.

Blue Dog Democrats took over from other Democrats (and some Repubs) when Clinton was on the ropes.

Order in the party must now be restored.

[AntiCoup2K4]

29. If the DLC exists because "moderates are needed in red states"....

Then what the HELL is Diane "war profiteer" Feinstein doing in California? Shouldn't she be in Alabama or somewhere where that sort of "moderate" :eyes: is needed.

The DLC doesn't want to win in moderate states. They want the entire fucking party. Otherwise they wouldn't exist on the West Coast at all, because we sure as HELL don't need them.

[Don1]

47. You're right man.

We got Lieberman here in CT, too. He's not in a red state and we want him to either be Democrat or let a Democrat take over as Senator.

[MrBenchley]

37. For that matter

Who the fuck ever said that the Democratic party has to opereate to please the three bobos who run Progressive Punch?

[Don1]

48. Why do you hate health care, education, and civil rights?

[MrBenchley]

61. Joe McCarthy would have approved your tactics....an enemies list

and you distort what your critics say and smear them.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

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[Don1]

112. Yours is a useless game.

You claim I have an enemies list. Nope, I was answering a question. I made that clear in the op.

On the other hand, when I answered the question, you treated me like an enemy. You and others made some lists of people, including Greens and some progressive Democrats like Tasini and Orman. That's a list.

You also said something about Greens being ratfuckers. That's a list, too.

Here is what I wrote in the op:
"So, if you want to make a term like "DiNO," then these are the guys."

[last_texas_dem]

143. I agree with your point

In assessing the voting behavior of Democratic Representatives and Senators, it is absolutely necessary to consider the area that they are representing. Yes, I agree that there are some Democrats who vote further to the right than is really necessary to maintain the seat they hold in their state; Joe Lieberman is probably the most obvious example of this. However, there a number of members of Congress, particularly reps, whose conservative-leaning voting record is more in line with their constituency. A more liberal Dem would be unlikely to survive in districts like Gene Taylor's in MS. Until America becomes more liberal, or more liberals who aren't voting start voting, particularly with the Repugs' gerrymandering of Congressional seats in many states towards their side, these moderate to conservative Dems are about the best we can do if we want to gain back a majority. If the choice is between a moderate- or conservative-leaning Dem or a far right-wing nut, as it would be in many of these districts, it's much better to have a moderate- or conservative-leaning Democrat.

[salin]

13. throw 'em all to the dogs

and leave a nice big voids for the conservative nutcases.

That'll serve us well when the void is filled with a brazillian (bush ridicule number intended) Dan Burtons ... though I rather gather that this is the point you are trying to make.

[Don1]

18. Like I said.

Many of these guys had real Democrats in power before they took over.

Know your party history, sir.

[liberalnurse]

26. So, you want a Democratic

revolt.....a complete metamorphoses of the party by 2008. You want all members to beat to the same drum as cookie cutter liberals. ....The Olde Tom Delay plan should be good for the Democrats since it was sooo good for the repugs.

Now, tell me this.....Where will all the money come from to replace these so called DINO's? It's your plan, please enlighten us all.

[Critters2]

31. That's right

the DLC brings in all that wonderful corporate money. And we sure need that to elect DINOs who work against the working people who made this party great!

Corporate money brings corporate power, and hurts real people. But the DLC'ers don't know any real people. So, no harm done!

[Don1]

50. I didn't say I had a plan.

I am explaining which Democrats vote like Republicans on votes that matter, like the Bankrupting Americans bill, Central American Not-so-Free Trade, the Kill Iraqi children bill, and the Remove my Constitutional Rights Patriotically Act.

Organizations like MoveOn with 3.3 million members can decide how to devote resources next to defeat DiNOs. That is a separate issue, but the money is clearly there.

[ruggerson]

14. Why don't you focus on battling REPUBLICANS?

YOu do realize that Democrats, people with (D) in front of their name, are what will win us back majorities in both the House and Senate.

If we attack the moderate/conservative Democrats, many of whom are in moderate/conservative states, we risk losing their seats to Republicans.

They help us simply by being Democrats. They will not be the major voice of the party when we get back in power, the center/left will. Thus the center/left will be in control of the leadership, the committee chairs and the legislative agenda.

Harping on who or who isn't a "DINO" is totally self defeating and non productive.

[Don1]

16. I am focusing on Republicans. n/t

[ruggerson]

17. Really? Where? n/t

[Name removed]

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[ruggerson]

20. Bullshit

they are Democrats. And when the heads are counted as to whether we have a majority or not, which is the ENTIRE BALLGAME in our system of government, the only thing that matters is whether someone has an (R) or (D) by their name.

Constructive criticism is one thing. But, all your "research" and OP does is help Republicans. Congratulations.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

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[ruggerson]

63. The letter next to your name means EVERYTHING

when they are counting the heads to see who has a majority in the house and senate.

It means the difference between Speaker of the House Pelosi or Speaker of the House Hastert.

It means the difference between Majority Leader Frist or Majority Leader Reed.

It means the difference between being able to SMACK DOWN Bush's fundamentalist extreme rightwing picks for the Supreme Court or not being able to.

Your efforts help Republicans. They work directly against Pelosi, Reed and all the rest of us.

[Don1]

115. No it doesn't.

Actions speak louder than words.

[Don1]

114. Bullshit

If someone has a D next to their name and they vote like an R, then your point makes no sense at all. Likewise, if someone has an R next to their name and they vote like a D, then your point again makes no sense.

Actions speak louder than words. Actions. Legislators legislate. And if they legislate well, then they are a D. If they look out for big business and screw the little guy, then they are an R at heart.

[stray cat]

28. Vote Republican!

Everyone who voted for these candidates should vote for Republicans - this is the new progressive agenda of the democratic party. It sounds like a winning plan to me. We're beginning to sound more intolerant and rigid then the Republicans who at least know to keep the diverse bases voting together to maintain political clout. Personally I prefer any democrat except for Zell Miller to most Republicans like Bill Frist, Rick Santorum etc. I also prefer any moderate republican to an extremist.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

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[Don1]

118. Endorsing Republicans?

You say: you "also prefer any moderate republican to an extremist." So which Democrats are you calling extremists? And which Republicans are you saying to vote for when you write "Vote Republican?"

[Critters2]

32. Well said!!

:applause:

[Don1]

43. Thanks.

These guys need to look at the facts. CAFTA, Bankruptcy bill, Iraq, Patriot Act, habeas corpus, etc, etc.

[jonnyblitz]

24. you might want to tell that to these DINOS. nt

[rman]

33. Why don't the DINO's battle REPUBLICANS?

What do you think repub voters would do if half their reps would be voting with Dems?

[MrBenchley]

39. I suspect DU is being ratfucked by the Green party myself

Wonder how many of these "traitors" and "sinners" are, just by coincidence you understand, up for re-election and beating their Republican opponent like a drum?

I know Lieberman, Skelton and Peterson are.

Ike Skelton is the ranking Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee. He just went to Iraq on a fact finding mission, wherre he was injured. Anybody wanting to say he's a drag on the Democratic party while I'm around, better bring their lunch.

[Don1]

131. You made a mistake, bub.

You pretend like the Senators are up for re-election and this is some kind of commie tactic to get Republicans elected.

Baucus, Max -- next election 2008
Bayh, Evan -- next election 2010
Byrd, Robert -- next election 2006
Carper, Thomas -- next election 2006
Conrad, Kent -- next election 2006
Landrieu, Mary -- next election 2008
Lieberman, Joseph -- next election 2006
Lincoln, Blanche -- next election 2010
Nelson, Ben -- next election 2006
Pryor, Mark -- next election 2008
Salazar, Ken -- next election 2010

Your defaming tactic of critics in McCarthy style is showing.

[skipos]

21. THIS IS A WASTE OF ENERGY

[Don1]

49. Taking on Republicans is a waste of energy?

[wyldwolf]

25. Don't forget the REAL DINOS

1. Jonathan Tasini
2. Steve Greenfield

These two DINOS are mounting primary challenges to Hillary Clinton in New York for the Democratic nomination for Senate. This proves once again that "proooogreeessssiiiives" know better than the rest of us. In New York, the latest poll has Hillary winning easily.

3. John Ormond

Ormond mounted a primary challenge to Joe Lieberman but dropped out, not for the sake of the party, but because he could only raise about $1000.

4. MoveOn.org

A Rolling Stone article asked:

"So who is MoveOn? Consider this: Howard Dean finished first in the MoveOn primary. Number Two wasn't John Kerry or John Edwards -- it was Dennis Kucinich. Listing the issues that resonate most with their membership, Boyd and Blades cite the environment, the Iraq War, campaign-finance reform, media reform, voting reform and corporate reform. Somewhere after freedom, opportunity and responsibility comes 'the overlay of security concerns that everybody shares.' Terrorism as a specific concern is notably absent. As are jobs. As is health care. As is education.

There's nothing inherently good or bad in any of this. It's just that MoveOn's values aren't middle-American values. They're the values of an educated, steadily employed middle and upper-middle class with time to dedicate to politics -- and disposable income to leverage when they're agitated. That's fine, as long as the group sticks to mobilizing fellow travelers on the left. But the risks are greater when it presumes to speak for the entire party."

Moveon isn't even sure of their place. They claimed to have taken the party "back" in 2004 when they said, "Now it's our Party: we bought it, we own it, and we're going to take it back.” But they later recanted that claim a few months after they made it by saying, "We’re not the party... we are going to take positions on issues... before we acknowledge any sort of notion of Democratic fealty."

Now there's a rumor that MoveOn.org may back a primary challenger to Democratic Senator Joe Lieberman. No, they're not keying in on a Republican held seat and backing a challenger. They're considering challenging a Democrat who is a reliable vote on most issues of importance to Democrats. In Hartford, Tom Matzzie, Washington director of MoveOn.org, said, "the No. 1 question people asked me was, `What are we going to do about Joe Lieberman?'"

Apparently reelect him. The latest polls find Lieberman with a 68% approval rating in his state.

5. The Colorado Democratic Party Executive Committee

If there was a truly bright spot for Democrats in November of 2004 anywhere in red-state America, it was surely in Colorado (with Montana running a close second). Of all the Democratic candidates in close U.S. Senate races, Ken Salazar was the only winner. His brother, John, pulled off one of the few gains Democrats were able to make in U.S. House seats. And Democrats won control of both branches of the state legislature. Now they look poised to take back the governorship next year, and run the whole shooting match.

With Democrats around the country looking to Colorado Democrats as role models, you'd think Chris Gates, the state party chair who oversaw this remarkable election day would be on an extended victory lap. But no: yesterday the state party's executive committee ousted him as chair in favor of environmental activist Pat Waak (Gates is contesting the outcome based on a claim that certain proxy votes didn't get counted).

According to press reports, the coup against Gates was basically an act of revenge by "activists" unhappy with his less-than-secret support of Salazar in his Senate primary against fellow-activist Mike Miles. Presumably, Gates' perfidious maneuvering, in tandem with virtually everybody in the national party who wanted to win a Senate seat, was responsible for Salazar's photo-finish 73-27 win over Miles in the primary. http://www.newdonkey.com/2005/03/punishing-success.html">New Donkey

6 - 2,883,105

2,883,105 - the number of people who voted for Ralph Nader, many believing his lie that there is no difference between the two parties.

The real DINOS are the ones who threaten to vote third party if their vanity candidate doesn't get the prize.

The real DINOS are the ones who voted for Ralph Nader in 2000 and 2004 because, after all, Democrats and Republicans are the same and we need to lose some elections to teach us a lesson.

The real DINOS are the ones who would actively campaign against a Democrat without thinking what the consequence could be.

The real DINOS are the ones who refuse to understand that the Democratic party has always been a big tent with a myriad of ideas and places on the political spectrum.

The real DINOS are the "my way or the highway" crowd.

And these DINOs can be the most liberal or the most conservative among us.

You don't have to like a particular Democrat, but if the magnifying glass you're using was suddenly placed over your Democrat of choice, you just might find something you'd consider disturbing there. If you're honest.

So the next time you consider using the word "DINO," just remember that history is cruel mistress and you might want to check the "DINO" bones in your guy or gal's closet first.

Remember this as we head into the '06 elections and then the '08 election.

[Don1]

40. You don't know what you are talking about.

Tasini is a Democrat challenging Hillary in a primary, because Hillary wants to keep killing Iraqi kids.

You spelled Orman wrong.

MoveOn has 3.3 million members, all Democrats. Matzzie asked Connecticut MoveOn members IF they want to take on Lieberman.

That's democracy with a capital D. That's Democrat.

Forcing Party members to accept Republicrat candidates like Lieberman is not Democratic at all.

[wyldwolf]

52. I know exactly what I'm talking about

It is YOU who has no idea - based on the reply you just gave.

[Don1]

56. It's not ORMOND.

It's Orman. Learn and educate yourself. Then, come back and debate about why you like DiNOs.

[wyldwolf]

87. so you not only keep enemies lists, you're a spelling nazi, too?

...and, perhaps, a mistaken one...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=John+Ormond+Lieberman

[Don1]

92. Wrong. Wrong, and Wrong again.

You are the one who is mistaken. It's Orman. And you're wrong about everything else.

[wyldwolf]

93. well, prove I'm wrong. wrong. and wrong again.

..or does stomping your feet and pouting qualify as proof?

[Don1]

102. Okay.

It's Orman, spelled O-r-m-a-n.
It's Orman, spelled O-r-m-a-n.
It's Orman, spelled O-r-m-a-n.

[wyldwolf]

106. Yep! Pouting and stomping your feet.

I've shown you a link where it's spelled "ORMOND" multiple times.

Your turn.

[Don1]

110. No you didn't.

You did an incorrect and unintelligent Google. You didn't bother to see how often the "Ormond" in your little test was in reference to someone else either.

Here is a much better one:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%2B%22Orman%22+site%3Afairfield.edu&btnG=Search
where Dr. Orman works.

Here is the one you want:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%2B%22Ormond%22+site%3Afairfield.edu&btnG=Search

[wyldwolf]

136. well, you finally decided to at least provide proof of one claim

...so now you're back to being a spelling nazi with an enemies list.

[Don1]

138. You have the enemies list.

It has progressive Democrats on it. How McCarthyesque.

[mtnsnake]

85. Funny though how Hillary scored higher progressively than Kerry, Kucinich,

Feingold, Feinstein, etc, isn't it, yet she gets railroaded constantly as some rightwing nutjob around here.

[MrBenchley]

121. LOL! Right on the money....

[rman]

54. So, Dems who consistently vote with Repubs are not real DINO's?

Could have fooled me.

[invictus]

30. Thanks, this list is really helpful.

Hopefully we can work to get them defeated in the primaries so that we can offer a real alternative to the Repubs.

[Don1]

44. You're welcome. n/t

[MrBenchley]

35. Profiles in courage (snicker)

So you started a thread to bash Democrats you disagree with based on a list of their voting records, but then you took Murtha's name off the list because you were afraid the cool kids wouldn't agree.

[Don1]

45. I took off Murtha

because he decided not to be Republican anymore, after he realized it was all a lie he was tricked into.

This is such an ancillary distraction.

Perhaps you could explain why you support DiNOs instead.

[wyldwolf]

53. you're obviously a one-issue person

Despite Murtha voting like a republican (based on YOUR narrow definition), you take him off your list because he's decided Iraq ain't a good thing.

One issue. Iraq.

So where is Kerry, Edwards, and Clinton on your list?

[Don1]

55. Not my list, dude.

It is scoring. Stop attacking me, by the way. Why do you like DiNOs?

[wyldwolf]

86. attacking you? And it is your list. You posted it... "dude."

You took the liberty of taking Murtha off, so it MUST be your list.

[MrBenchley]

62. He's got an enemies list and he distorts what critics say

Sound familiar?

[Don1]

67. Republicans, the DLC, and McCarthy are all fascists.

Not me. I believe in democracy. You are the one saying that no progressives should be allowed in primaries. Your fascism is showing.

[MrBenchley]

77. Says the guy with the enemies list who distorts what critics say

"I believe in democracy."
Unless citizens wish to elect Democrats YOU and the three bozos at that obscure website diasapprove of...

[Don1]

125. I love democracy.

You can't stand progressives. It's why you keep swearing at me and in this thread.

[MrBenchley]

78. Did Murtha change his position on school prayer and flag burning?

Did he suddenly stop opposing reproductive choice?

Here's what the California Bobo party thinks:

http://www.progressivepunch.org/members.jsp?search=selectName&member=PA12&chamber=Senate&zip=&x=22&y=11

That's a much worse score than Ike Skelton....

http://www.progressivepunch.org/members.jsp?search=selectName&member=MO4&chamber=Senate&zip=&x=57&y=3

[last_texas_dem]

144. But what excuses Murtha and not Byrd?

Who also has a voting record far too conservative for my taste personally, but did a great job debating the Repugs in the rush to war with Iraq based on faulty premises? On the issue of the war, he was better than many Dems with more liberal voting records. Murtha has a more conservative voting record than Byrd, and only recently opened his eyes on the issue of the war, while Byrd has been opposed to it from the beginning.

[ruggerson]

64. lol. Touche, MrBenchley

And a deep bow of gratitude for picking that up.

;)

[MrBenchley]

66. Thanks! I bet Murtha hasn't changed on school prayer (for it)

or a Constitutional amendment banning flag burning (he cosponsored one with Duke Cunningham)...

[mtnsnake]

88. You took the words right outta my mouth, re: Murtha

Murtha scored a whopping 10 points less than Lieberman on the Progressive Points list, yet Lieberman makes his list of Dinos and Murtha doesn't. This place would've gone hog wild if Murtha was on his list!!

[Hippo_Tron]

57. You're going to get a lot of shit for calling Robert Byrd a DINO

The man did fight tooth and nail against the Iraq War and is still doing so.

Also, Senator Kent Conrad who is from North Dakota, a state that voted for Bush in excess of 60%, voted against the Iraq War Resolution.

Gene Taylor, democratic congressman from a district in Mississippi that probably voted for Bush in the 70-80% range, votes consistantly against Bush's economic policies and has said that he was flat out lied to by this administration about WMD's amongst other things. Does he vote with us on social issues? Unfortunately, no. But the fact is that we are incredibly lucky to have a Democrat in that district in Mississippi, especially an honest one like Gene Taylor that truly represents people and not special interests.

I consider someone a DINO when I genuinely don't think that they are a noticeable improvement over a Republican. I would toss my Repuke Senator David Vitter for Byrd, Conrad, or Taylor in a heartbeat because they are 1000x better than he is.

BTW voting records can be scored based on the agenda of the person who is keeping score. Remember John Kerry voted to raise taxes like 300 times or something based on how the Bush campaign was keeping score.

I think it would help your case if you would post your sources.

[Don1]

58. You have a point about Byrd.

Your 1000x better and 100x better statistics are completely made up, though, and based on subjectivity. The truth is that Byrd is better than Lieberman. Where does one draw the line? I think if a Senator's voting record is close to Lieberman's or worse, then he is a DiNO. Byrd's record is better but still very close to Lieberman's, so I would call him a DiNO. If you want to say he is redeemable, then that's your choice. This is democracy, right?

As for Taylor, he votes like a Republican, which I think you agree. You are wrong about the "special interests," though. His score on just about everything are poor, including his voting for corporate interests, like corporate subsidies, and voting against labor.

Now, getting to the mathematics of the alleged 1000x better. Someone who "voted for Bush in the 70-80% range" is not "1000x better than" a Republican. Whatever mathematics you use to make such a claim must also mean that a progressive is 1000x better than such a DiNO that you support.

Unfortunately, there are some conservatives here on DU who are trying to call these awesome progressives DiNOs. Do you support that claim, too?

[Hippo_Tron]

65. I have my sources, I don't know where yours are

Gene Taylor voted No on NAFTA

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1993/roll575.xml

Gene Taylor voted No on CAFTA

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?vote_id=3585&can_id=H2152103

Gene Taylor voted Yes on the US withdrawing from the WTO... TWICE

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?vote_id=2782&can_id=H2152103

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?vote_id=3538&can_id=H2152103

Gene Taylor voted NO on the 2001 Bush tax cuts

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?vote_id=2990&can_id=H2152103

Gene Taylor voted NO on the 2003 Bush tax cuts

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?vote_id=3260&can_id=H2152103

Gene Taylor voted YES on McCain-Feingold

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?vote_id=3153&can_id=H2152103

Yea, he really looks like a guy who stands up for special interests, let me tell ya. Perhaps you are making the mistake of letting other people score for you instead of doing it yourself.

Sorry but if I were a worker with the possibility of getting my job shipped overseas I would think that Gene Taylor is 1000x better than the Republican that could potentially replace him, no matter what his stances on social issues are.

Also, try watching some C-SPAN once in a while. What congressmen and senators actually do goes far beyond their voting records. In almost every committee meeting that Taylor is featured in or in every speech he is giving, he is standing up for things that we on DU complain that our representatives are not standing up for. He is consistantly hammering the administration on its economic policy, on their mistreatment of the troops, on Abu Ghreib, and on their falsifying of pre-war intelligence.

People on all sides can't stand Taylor because he is his own man. The DLC establishment types that you dislike as well can't stand him because they can't control him. The GOP hates him because he holds them accountable. Liberals can't stand him because he is anti-choice, anti gun control, and anti gay marriage. This is why, once again, I wonder what exactly your sources are. The people keeping score might not like Taylor and want to paint him as a Republican. As I said, he's certainly made more enemies than friends.

[MrBenchley]

70. Let me guess--Gene Taylor is way ahead of his Republican challenger

for the 2008 elections....right?

[Hippo_Tron]

73. Gene Taylor has been safe against all challengers for years

His district used to be represented by Trent Lott and he recieved his strongest challenge in either 2002 or 2004 (I can't remember) by one of Lott's relatives. Taylor won by at least 10 points and I think it might have been more.

[MrBenchley]

76. I'm shocked, shocked I say....(snicker)

I've begun noticing how many threads DU spouts attacking Democrats who are up for re-election and beating their GOP opponents like a drum...

[Don1]

80. Taylor is not in the DLC.

No. He's a Blue Dog Democrat, which is just as bad. So, your points about controlling are completely bogus.

He voted for the Bankruptcy bill. That is definitely special interests.

Lockheed Martin, General Dynamics, Boeing like to give him money:
http://www.opensecrets.org/races/contrib.asp?ID=MS04&cycle=2004&special=N

He voted against an Iraq exit timetable. Hmmm...

He gets the majority of his industry contributions from health care. Hmmm, I wonder if he voted like a Republican when it came to limiting medical malpractice suits. Yup, here it is:
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2004/roll166.xml

You also said he votes with Bush 70-80% of the time. That is definitely a DiNO.

Yeah, he does get money from big business. Admit it. Much, much more money from big business than from labor. In his 2004 campaign, here was the breakdown:

Business: $165,506
Labor: $13,000
Ideological: $17,500
http://www.opensecrets.org/races/blio.asp?ID=MS04&cycle=2004&special=N

Admit it.

DiNO. Corrupt Corporatist Conservative loving DiNO.

[Hippo_Tron]

84. I said that his district votes 70-80% for Bush in presidential elections

I never said that he votes 70-80% with Bush. And yea okay so he voted for the bankruptcy bill and the medical malpractice bill, he's not perfect. He still has a fairly solid record of supporting fair trade and not supporting tax cuts for the rich.

And yes he gets more money from business than labor. Newsflash, organized labor is almost nonexistant in a state like Mississippi.

In total, Gene Taylor raised about $200,000 for that race which is almost nothing for a congressional race. So Lockheed Martin and General Dynamics gave him a few grand. Could that perhaps simply be because he sits on the Armed Services committee? Considering that those organizations give to both Dems and Republicans I imagine that they probably gave at least a few grand to every member of that committee no matter what.

[Don1]

89. My mistake.

About the 70-80%. Your statement was a little ambiguous, but from context I should have understood you.

Lockheed Martin is just as bad as Halliburton, though. They funded the Bush Inaugural, too. They received Iraq contracts, too. They have 84 known violations for corruption/overcharging the government. It makes no sense to keep giving them guaranteed profits, subsidies, and contracts on Iraq. 84 incidents of misconduct. Think about it.

Labor and progressives don't exist in Mississippi, eh? Then, perhaps you could explain why Bennie G. Thompson from Mississippi has a much better voting record than Taylor? Perhaps you could explain why Thompson voted AGAINST the Bankruptcy bill? Perhaps, you could explain why Thompson voted against the bill to limit medical malpractice? Perhaps you could explain why he has a much better labor voting record? Perhaps, you could explain why Thompson received much more money from labor?

Business $243,624
Labor $166,000
Ideological $23,210
http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/summary.asp?CID=N00003288&cycle=2004

[Hippo_Tron]

90. Because Thompson has the only sizeable African American district...

In Mississippi. African Americans vote 9 to 1 Democratic.

[Don1]

91. You didn't answer

any of my questions.

You said there is no labor in Mississippi. Clearly, there is a lot of labor devoted to funding Thompson, not Taylor, though. You were wrong and will not answer the question.

Nor the question about your exaggeration of 1000x. Where's the math?

Answer the questions or admit it. He's a DiNO.

[Hippo_Tron]

94. Okay let me try this again

Bennie Thompson has a more liberal voting record than Taylor because Thompson lives in a district that is far more democratic. Thompson's district I'm fairly sure went to Kerry and if not it came damn close. Taylor's district went to Bush by a huge margin, it is a much more Republican district. Why does Thompson have more labor support? There's probably a lot more labor in Thompson's district. Notice he still has 2x the amount of business contributions than labor. Notice that in total, Thompson took in more business money in total than Taylor did.

And I'm not arguing about the 1000x thing because it's just a stupid, so let's drop that.

[Don1]

95. No, sir.

You made a comment that DiNOs are 1000x better than Republicans. You need to back that up. If you want to say you were wrong, then fine. Say you were wrong.

Now, about labor. Nope. Thompson has more poor liberal African Americans in his district and plus more labor? You contradict yourself and you provide no evidence to boot. I doubt that all the allegedly more whites in Taylor's district would have less unionized labor than in the other district. Makes no sense. Nope.

Labor supports Thompson because he supports the working man. Taylor does not. You can see it from his voting record. Taylor supports Boeing and Lockheed Martin and the health care industry and it is why they fund him.

[Hippo_Tron]

79. Kick, I'm still waiting for my response, Don1

[Don1]

81. I gave you a response above.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2303592&mesg_id=2305861

Admit it. DiNOs must go. Stop supporting hate and corruption. Support health care, education, civil rights, and peace, not like the DiNOs. Stop being a DiNO supporter.

[Don1]

82. I'm still waiting for my response Hippo_Tron.

I asked you to explain your bogus fuzzy BushCo mathematics. You evaded or maybe did not notice the issue. Explain why you say a DiNO is 1000x better than a Republican, but a progressive is not 1000x better than a DiNO. It doesn't make sense mathematically, so show your math.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wyldwolf]

97. let's ask a mod if a rule has been violated. Mods?

Mods?

Is it against DU rules for dissenting opinions and debate in threads?

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Don1]

128. Off topic.

[wyldwolf]

137. no it isn't

You didn't see the deleted post I responded to.

My post was right on topic.

[Don1]

139. Off-topic.

[Chicago Democrat]

103. Great List! Why isn't Rahm Emmanual on it?

He's awful, a War Hawk, practically a Lieberman. Plus he runs the DCCC and is attacking anti-war candidates in primary challenges!

See

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=150&topic_id=10044&mesg_id=10044

[Don1]

105. I have been tracking Emanuel's behavior in the DCCC.

You are right. There are 4 states that I know of where some misbehavior happened by the DCCC pushing out good candidates. One of the very interesting things in the DCCC is that they had only 10 endorsements. They must win 16 seats though in order to win Congress back. Strange, huh? Well, I went to review their candidate list on their website and it moved. Not even sure where it is now or if they even announce them anymore...

Emanuel is not on the list, because his legislative score was not on the bottom of the barrel. He must be a centrist. Unlike claims by some others here, I do support centrists and leftists. I just don't support right-winger DiNOs in the Party like the list in the op.

It is also possible that the scoring method is not perfect. I will be creating a new scoring mechanism myself at some point. In it, I will be completely objective, rather than the Progressive Punch website. I will find an objective way to capture progressive voting records.

[MrBenchley]

108. Yeah, the cool kidz all hate Rahm Emanuel too! Let's get him!

Here's "war hawk" Emanuel on Meet the Press:

"On Iraq, we have a false choice between stay the course and get the same results and just pull up. I think Senator Levin laid out a very good agenda, which is we're going to have measurements. You can't say after two and a half years, like you asked the general before, two and a half years, nearly $400 billion, and we have one Iraqi battalion? We're going to set standards every way and measurements from the political process, economic process and also on the military and national security where Iraq has to stand up. ....We have given the president a blank check. It's been a rubber-stamp Congress that sent troops in there without Kevlar vests, without Humvees. We have to have a standard in which Iraq and the administration measure up over the two years, and at that point we'll evaluate where we are. "

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9542948/

The beauty of the "progressive cause" is its relentless honesty </sarcasm>

[Don1]

122. Actually, I never said "Let's get him."

Your McCarthyism is showing as you paint your critics on the left incorrectly and you create lists of Greens, progressives, and me.

[MrBenchley]

127. Yeah, that's why you drew up an enemies list....

[Don1]

129. You're the one with the "far left" enemies list.

You called the Greens "ratfuckers" whatever the heck that is. Then, you started trying to slam progressives and me as obscure and "far left." You're the one with the enemy list.

You are sounding a lot like someone else talking about commies:

[MrBenchley]

130. Says the guy whose enemies list kicks off the thread....

I called the greens ratfuckers because that appears to be exactly what they're doing. Go cry about it to somebody who gives a shit.

And Progressivepunchinello.com is both obscure AND far left. A quick scan of "search" finds the website isn't even much referenced by other DUers...

[Don1]

140. Go crying somewhere else.

[Nothing Without Hope]

132. I'll get flamed for this, but Hillary Clinton is a DINO too

with her carefully calculated "moderate" stands and grandstanding to the wingnuts like the ridiculous co-sponsoring of the flag-burning bill and her non-stand on the Iraq War. She is painting herself to be a universal candidate acceptable to all but the most rabid Rethug voters. And campaigning is what it is all about for her 24/7.

And John Kerry is almost as bad, with his non-position on electronic election fraud and his "we will win" position on the Iraq war. All calculated to appeal to "moderates" - but really not taking a real stand at all.

I am hoping very hard that neither will be chosen for Dem national candidates.

[SaveElmer]

133. Obviously not based on a complete reading of her record...

In which she gets highest ratings from women's, environmental, education, and union organizations...not to mention her 95 rating frmo the ADA...and her steadfast support for abortion rights, public education and the environment among others.

[MrBenchley]

134. But she picked on my childish video game! Bwaaaaah!!!!

[last_texas_dem]

146. Considering Kerry's voting record

If he is DINO, I'm wondering if there are *any* Democratic Senators who couldn't be classified similarly!

Kerry ain't perfect but I can think of few Senators or Representatives who represent Democratic interests/issues any better than he does.

[ourbluenation]

135. Divide and Conquer...good for you (she says sarcastically).

These people are moderates. So what? Surely you aren't demanding we all think like you politically? Reminds me of another group. No thanks.

[Douglas Carpenter]

141. let's compare record with a "moderate" Republican

Let me make it clear that I am a progressive and certainly no friend of the DLC. I would support primary challenges against elected Democrats who clearly care more about their K-street contributers than ordinary people. I believe progressives should work to transform the Democratic Party into a genuinely progressive party. I believe that we have much to learn from how right-wingers working from the landslide defeat of Barry Goldwater in 1964 transformed the GOP into a distinctly right-wing party.
By current Republican standards Richard Nixon would be a socialist wacko. But the right-wingers still backed him in the general elections and backed his presidency from which they worked to create right-wing dominance of the GOP

I don't have time to go through all of those on the list but using Vote Smart's Interest group rating--let's compare Senator Sen. Max Baucus, Democrat of Montana with Mr. Moderate Republican himself, Sen. John McCain. I chose Sen. Baucus because he was the first on the list and I have basically never heard of him and therefore have no bias:

This is courtesy of project vote smart - link:

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can...
_____________________

"2004 Senator Baucus supported the interests of the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation 100 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation 0 percent in 2004.
_________________________________

2004 Senator Baucus supported the interests of the Peace Action 100 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Peace Action 13 percent in 2004.
______________________________________

2004 Senator Baucus supported the interests of the Friends Committee on National Legislation 50 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Friends Committee on National Legislation 0 percent in 2004.
____________________________________________________

2004 Senator Baucus supported the interests of the National Abortion Reproductive Rights Action League 100 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the National Abortion Reproductive Rights Action League 0 percent in 2004.
__________________

2003-2004 Senator Baucus supported the interests of the American Civil Liberties Union 78 percent in 2003-2004.

2003-2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the American Civil Liberties Union 22 percent in 2003-2004.
__________________________

2004 Senator Baucus supported the interests of the AFL-CIO 92 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the AFL-CIO 33 percent in 2004.
_________________________

2004 Senator Baucus supported the interests of the United Auto Workers 73 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the United Auto Workers 9 percent in 2004.
__________________________

2003-2004 Senator Baucus supported the interests of the National Education Association 85 percent in 2003-2004

2003-2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the National Education Association 35 percent in 2003-2004.
______________________

2003-2004 Senator Baucus supported the interests of the Human Rights Campaign 50 percent in 2003-2004.

2003-2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Human Rights Campaign 25 percent in 2003-2004.
_____________________________________

2003-2004 Senator Baucus supported the interests of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights 100 percent in 2003-2004.

2003-2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights 14 percent in 2003-2004.
_____________________________

2004 Senator Baucus supported the interests of the Family Research Council 0 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Family Research Council 67 percent in 2004.
___________________________

2004 Senator Baucus supported the interests of the Christian Coalition 0 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Christian Coalition 83 percent in 2004.
_____________________________

2004 Senator Baucus supported the interests of the American Conservative Union 29 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the American Conservative Union 72 percent in 2004.
____________________________

2003-2004 Senator Baucus supported the interests of the Concerned Women for America 7 percent in 2003-2004.

2003-2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Concerned Women for America 100 percent in 2003-2004."

_________________________________________

Now I will end with a 1996 quote from Noam Chomsky on why he was voting for Clinton's reelection and not for Nader:

from: Understanding Power by Noam Chomsky page 337

"I mean, I'll vote for Clinton, holding my nose--but the reason has nothing at all to do with big policy issues; there I can't see too much difference. What it has to do with are things like who's going to get to appoint the judiciary happens to have a big effect on people's lives....
They may be small policy differences when you look at the big picture--but remember, there's a huge amount of power out there, and small policy differences implementing a huge amount of power can make a big difference in people's lives....Okay, that makes a lot of difference for people whose kids are hungry in downtown Boston"

Of course that was in 1996. Since the first administration of Bush jr. it is clear that Dr. Chomsky considers the current Republican Party with its fundamentalist base and its influence on domestic policy and neoconservative influence on foreign policy to represent a significant departure from what had been bi-partisan consensus into a whole new and much more dangerous direction thus increasing the differences between the two parties

[The Judged]

142. Gee, those look like DLC members to me! Link for reps? please!

New Democrat Governors

Gov. Jim Doyle of Wisconsin
Gov. Michael Easley of North Carolina
Gov. Jennifer Granholm of Michigan
Gov. Ruth Ann Minner of Delaware
Gov. Janet Napolitano of Arizona
Gov. Ed Rendell of Pennsylvania
Gov. Bill Richardson of New Mexico
Gov. Kathleen Sebelius of Kansas
Gov. Tom Vilsack of Iowa
Gov. Mark Warner of Virginia

Members of the Senate New Democrat Coalition

Sen. Max Baucus of Montana
Sen. Evan Bayh of Indiana
Sen. Maria Cantwell of Washington
Sen. Tom Carper of Delaware
Sen. Hillary Clinton of New York
Sen. Kent Conrad of North Dakota
Sen. Byron Dorgan of North Dakota
Sen. Dianne Feinstein of California
Sen. Tim Johnson of South Dakota
Sen. John Kerry of Massachusets
Sen. Herb Kohl of Wisconsin
Sen. Mary Landrieu of Louisiana
Sen. Joe Lieberman of Connecticut
Sen. Blanche Lincoln of Arkansas
Sen. Bill Nelson of Florida
Sen. Ben Nelson of Nebraska
Sen. Mark Pryor of Arkansas
Sen. Debbie Stabenow of Michigan

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Democratic_Leaders...

In the House of Representatives there were 74 DLC members in 2003.

Local politics are not exempt from the influence of the DLC either, though I lack the links at this moment to illustrate the #'s.

[MrBenchley]

145. Another charter member of the "Junior Joe McCarthy" club

Because nothing says "progressive" like an enemies list....

[LynneSin]

147. Anyone who doesn't agree with me 100% on every single fricking thing

I mean, that's the impression I get from folks here at DU

:crazy:

To me, they are all democrats. More of us means we have contol over Bush even if we lose a few demcrats from time to time.

And I find it fucking shameful for anyone to call Byrd, who fought his ass off to preven this war, a DINO

[jonnyblitz]

149. Byrd is a rabid fucking homophobe. nt

[invictus]

150. He is also a former KKK member. nt