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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 03:48 PM
Original message
Some thoughts on the Tookie Williams case
Edited on Thu Dec-08-05 03:49 PM by KansDem
The post is not to debate guilt or innocence, or to advocate one punishment over another, but to keep in perspective the reality that Mr. Williams’s fate will be determined by a former body-builder turn movie actor.

Now, that is not to say that former body-builders turned movie actors could not review this case and render a thoughtful, well-informed decision. However, I have to wonder about the qualifications in this particular case. Is Arnold Schwarzenegger qualified to make such a decision? What is his education? What is his background? In other words, what has this former body-builder turned movie actor done in the past several decades to prepare him to make this life and death decision?

But before we address that question, let’s ponder some major developments in the past few decades that have given a new meaning to the preparation of public service. A few times in the past we have heard that “so-and-so would make a good public servant because…” and heard reasons that had very little to do with public service. For example, in the early 1980s I attended a San Diego Padres baseball game with a friend. During the course of our conversations, my friend mentioned that Padres player Steve Garvey might have run for congress if marital difficulties hadn’t forced him out of the running (he had been accused of marital infidelity and rumored to have fathered illegitimate children). “Steve Garvey,” I mused, “Why Steve Garvey?” My friend looked at me puzzled (I’m not a baseball fan and certainly not up on San Diego politics), and answered, “Well, people like him…” That’s it. “People like him.” What, if anything, did this have to do with whether or not he would make a good public servant? But it appears “likeability” has become the new standard by which we measure the effectiveness of public service.

It used to be that public servants first really wanted to do just that: serve the public, and had prepared for this career through education and work. For example, I believe the most frequent career choice of members of congress is "lawyer." Say what you will about lawyers, but one can not disagree that lawyers are educated (bachelors degree followed by law degree) and have worked to some degree with the public (unless they go immediately to work as corporate gunslingers). I used to believe the best members of congress were those who had degrees in political science, social sciences, philosophy and the like. They were people who were well-versed in the humanities and history. Essentially, good public servants were those who believed in mankind--believed in its history, endeavors, and aspirations.

That all seemed to change with Ronald Reagan. Movie actor Reagan was simply performing the role of President of the United States. Someone or something else was behind him, giving him his lines and cues. One might argue, however, that at least Reagan had "experience" with labor issues as the head of the Screen Actors Guild--a union--(although I’m sure members of the federal air traffic controllers of 1981 would disagree), and he did start out as a Roosevelt “New Deal” Democrat. But since Reagan we've had actors Sonny Bono ("I got you, babe") and his wife the aerobics instructor, Fred Grandy ("Loveboat") , and Fred Thompson (another movie actor), and others. We've also had athletes Jim Ryun (first high-schooler to run sub-four minute mile), Jack Kemp (football), Bill Bradley (basketball), Jesse Ventura (wrestling) and others. This is not to discount the public-servant worth of those whose primary endeavor was "entertainment," but simply to ask, "We're they elected because of what they knew or rather what they did?" Were they, as my friend put it, "likable?" And was "likeability" the only reason they were elected? Arnold fits into this category, considering the number of California voters who like the Republican because…well, he was simply “Arnold.”

About the time of Reagan came another “desired trait” of public servants: corporatism. How many times have we heard the mantra, usually from a Republican candidate for office, that, “if elected, I’ll run government like a business.” The belief was that intellectuals, who never had to meet a payroll, were ruining government and the American dream. Those who were actually involved in business, whether as a small business owner or CEO, could do a better job of managing the nation’s treasury. Current corporatists include Tom DeLay, Dick Cheney, and George W. Bush, and we can see how successful their public service has been. Arnold can be included in this group since his rise in California politics seems to be tied in with the Texas-based “Screw Grandma Millie” energy companies who gouged California rate payers with lies about why California’s energy rates had skyrocketed. It appears the energy company’s “settlement” with Arnold’s California of $1.5 billion was much more palatable to the backers of Arnold than the prospect of a $9 billion lawsuit instigated by the previous California administration.

This brings us to Arnold Schwarzenegger, the “public servant.” The muscle-man turned entertainer was elected precisely for that reason--because he was a muscle-man turned actor. Backed by corporations because of his celebrity status and “likeability,” Arnold now holds in his hands the life and death fate of Tookie Williams. What will influence his decision? What is Arnold’s background beyond body building and acting? Has he a proven track record of public service before his stint as California governor? Will his decision be tempered with life experiences? Has he read/studied philosophy and theology (not the neo-Con fascist “Vote for GOP or you go to Hell” kind), and can he assimilate what he has learned? How versed is he regarding the thoughts and writings that shapes and guides the American people and their enlightened form of government?

In short, what will Arnold rely on to make his decision? Will he grab a cigar and go to his special smoking tent constructed just for him as he mulls over this decision, reaching deep inside himself to contemplate his world-view based on decades of education and life’s experiences? Or will he simply pull a Bush and give Mr. Williams the obligatory 15 minutes before heading out the door for the golf course.

edited to add a word.
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AlamoDemoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is very passionate case
I hope Gov. Swithchnuogh of California can take on a experience from his latest heart beat and knowledge that life itself is worth of something
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. Governator's decision will be based 100% on politics
Edited on Thu Dec-08-05 03:58 PM by slackmaster
I predict he will do a fine job of appearing to be giving a fair hearing to both sides, then deny clemency.

A majority of Californians still support the DP for violent predatory criminals, and most of us believe Mr. Williams' "reform" to be a con job.

Stanley "Tookie" Williams will become the next Willie Horton in Shwarzenegger's bid for re-election. Any gubernatorial candidate who either expressed support for clemency for Williams or generally opposes capital punishment will be portrayed in Schwarzenegger TV and radio ads as not just soft on crime, but soft on the worst criminals of all. The Crips and other violent street gangs have kept millions of Californians in a state of fear for decades. Californians hate Williams, and few of us will shed a tear when he stops breathing. The sad truth is that allowing Williams to be executed will gain Schwarzenegger more votes than it costs him. The calculus is simple.

For the record I oppose the death penalty because people aren't smart or objective enough to apply it with no chance of executing the wrong person. As I've said before several times. Tookie Williams makes a piss poor poster person for a worthy cause.

A chance to deny clemency to Tookie Williams is the best thing that could have happened to Arnold Schwarzenegger.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. you gotta look tough for those voters
It's a sad part of our culture. It's why Bill Clinton executed a mentally handicapped person when he was about to run for president. He knew if he didn't the Right would have hounded him as soft on crime and weak. So he executed a person so unaware of what was going on that they tried to save their dessert from their last meal, so it could be eaten later. There wasn't going to be any "later." That's the kind of environment we have nowadays in politics.
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jbnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. The case you cite with Clinton, Ricky Ray Rector
was unique. He was not mentally handicapped when he killed the people, he became handicapped after that due to a failed suicide attempt prior to capture.
The usual reason not to execute the mentally handicapped is that they wouldn't understand the right or wrong or permanency of their crime in the way a "normal" person would. That wouldn't be the case with Rector.

Clinton's reasons might have been political. If I were pro-death penalty I'm not sure damage after the crime would be reason to set the penalty aside.

I am against the death penalty in all cases and I always have been so I can't see through those eyes. But I do recognize the odd factors in Rector's case.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. those are good points
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #2
21. No they don't
The majority of Californians when given the option of Life/Without choose it over the death penalty...
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #2
23. I'm against the death penalty because it DON'T WORK
and it never can work.

It doesn't deter, it doesn't salve the wounds of the victim's family, it is expensive and it's applied (and can ONLY be applied in this rasict country) in a racist and classist way.

What's the f*ck's it got going for it, pray tell?
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
3. I find that there is a great ignorance about humanity in politics
It's one reason why politicians are so anti-government and have ingrained and cultivated that mistrust into the American populace.

I know I trust my own instincts more than I do virtually any politician, Dem or Repub. Just because Bill Clinton says something doesn't mean that I agree with him or automatically believe he is right. Sure I generally agree with him on most issues, but I don't take his word as gospel. Nobody should do that. Not for anybody. I used to think politicians probably knew what they were doing basically. That when they gave analysis of a situation it was pretty well thought out and so on. Now, I make my own interpretations of situations. I figure out my own opinion. Because I'm probably more qualified and better at it than 90 percent of the politicians out there.

Why?

Because I work at it. I read everything I can. Look at all different views etc. I am interested in public service for public service. To help others. I take political science courses. I study people. I am a published writer.

I don't think that a bodybuilder/Actor has anything over on me or most of the general public. Nor do I think that the Corporatists have as much common sense as myself or the general public.

In the end, I have little faith that Arnold will make a well-informed, well-thought out compassionate decision.
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AlamoDemoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I would agree that
there is no sound judgment on Arnold's brain...but I hope and pray that he makes the right decision this time round
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liberalitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
5. While I don't think much of ah-old.... or of his ability to make this call
I do think that the "triers of fact" made the correct decision in the williams case.... beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Now granted, I'm probably one of a handful of liberals who have their own reasons for supporting the death penalty.... especially in a case like this.



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laugle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. There's alot more than a handful who want to see
this guy fry....the California supreme ct. denied clemency and so will Arnold. I think it is a no-brainer for him. He is just making a big show for political purposes.

After all we have a moron for president, so what the hell, a bad actor for govenor.

Reagan had the beginnings of Alzheimers disease and the pubs think he was the greatest president ever.
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philarq Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
7. So you are advocating that elected officials not make these decisions
Edited on Thu Dec-08-05 04:13 PM by philarq
and that America is too stupid to take care of itself so you need a ---what , --- a King or perhaps Dictator-for-life to make the really hard decisions.....
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. that we need to elect people on merit, not for superficial reasons
it's more important that Americans find people who can actually do the job right and not just find somebody that they find likeable.

I think that's what the OP is getting at.
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gWbush is Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
9. Nice post KANS
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Bunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
10. Thank you for the thoughtful post. I do not know what qualifies
Edited on Thu Dec-08-05 06:47 PM by Bunny
Arnold to make this decision, or how he will decide (although I suspect that he will uphold the death sentence).

In PA we are facing a similar situation. Former Steeler great Lynn Swann is said to be running against Ed Rendell for Governor next year. Now, any Steeler fan worth his/her salt is a big fan of Swannie, but what exactly are his credentials for governor of the Commonwealth? He's made a career in sports broadcasting, and has sat on the Board of Directors for a couple of companies. He attended USC, but I can't tell if he ever graduated, or what his degree is in. Anyway, is that enough of a resume to be Governor? I don't really think so, and I doubt if he would win PA (there's a lot of racism in this blue state), but the interesting thing about it echoes your point - people generally like him, and hey, he used to be a Steeler. In Western PA, that may be all that's necessary.

On edit, I wanted to add: in the case of Arnold, Jesse Ventura, and Lynn Swann, why do they start their political careers running for the highest office in their state? Are they too good to do their time as City Councilpersons, County Commissioners, state Reps and Senators?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. His position as Governor of the state gives him that power
Whether or not that makes him "qualified" according to whatever arbitrary set of qualifications you want to apply, only you can say.
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Bunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I didn't think his "power" was in question.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. Ventura was a mayor
before he ran for governor. So he had some experience.
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Bunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Thanks. I did not know that.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. not that it did him any good
he still sucked, lol. :)

You're welcome. I am always here to help. :)
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realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
14. Depends on what he wants to do politically...
This decision won't be based on any Christian
or moral argument...Arnie doesn't seem to reflect
any faith. Republicans are pissed
at him right now because of his chief of staff
choice so he may want to please them, but he
needs to prove to people against the DP that
his staff change is more than just a political move.

So Arnie, do you have human feelings or are you
just a Terminator...

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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 05:36 AM
Response to Original message
19. Wow! You make excellent points.
I couldn't agree with you more and it is sad. Qualifications are obviously not a priority in our country. Why do Americans have trouble electing qualified individuals?

"keep in perspective the reality that Mr. Williams’s fate will be determined by a former body-builder turn movie actor"

Sad.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 02:22 AM
Response to Original message
22. Thoughtful post
Edited on Sat Dec-10-05 02:23 AM by ProudDad
Thank you.

I'm hoping that since some of Arnold's actions on Crime and Punishment so far display an ability to reason about the subject instead of the knee-jerk reactions (based on fear) of previous Governors in California, especially that bastard Grey Davis -- who couldn't kill them fast enough.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/11/22/MNGP138ITM1.DTL

It's about time this barbarism is ended.
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