Che and Chavez

[mrgorth]

I'm getting a lot of grief from righties and more for using some Che images and touting Chavez on a debate board. They're saying Che was particularly brutal, executed homosexuals, etc and how horrible Chavez is. Frankly, I don't know a whole lot about either, I saw The Motorcycle Diaries and I thought I read some good stuff about Chavez on here. Can someone fill me in?

[northzax]

1. maybe, just as a thought

you shouldn't tout things and use images that you don't understand, simply because it is trendy to do so?

Che is a complicated fellow, who had no compulsions about killing in the name of his ideas. But then he comes from a violent society, so maybe it is understandable and justifiable, maybe it isn't.

Chavez is a modern populist, the survivor of a failed coup (that he led, by the way) who's enemies have an annoying habit of getting murdered, apparently by hired killers, contracted by his other enemies, to make him look bad. The jury is still out, but I am certain that after his consitutionally mandated second term ends, he will simply fade into the ether, letting the people choose his successor, while he goes to a think tank or something. No chance he'll change the Constitution again, or declare an emergency or something.

[mrgorth]

2. Oh, PLEASE stop the preaching

it was done once and you act like I'm the only guy who ever used Che's image. If he killed gays for being gay than why do we allow his image here?

[northzax]

5. you asked

you said you used the image, and knew nothing about it. that's on you. I don't care if you use it, but why you would use someone's name and image if you didn't know anything about them is beyond me.

[peacetalksforall]

10. ???????

You characterize Argentina or the part of Argentina where Che comes from as a violent society? Was that true when he lived there? Is Argentina what you mean when you say where he comes from? You mean violent?

Chavez led the coup against himself?
Enemies statement - too vague for me to form a question.

But, I agree, that we need to know more in order to support them.

They are both complex.

I don't think that anyone can say that either of them didn't see wrongs and not try to do something.

Chavez is doing it by his statements of truth no matter how coloful they are and about what the U.S. is trying to do to him is empowering others to stand up and not take what they have taken from us.

It would be easier to learn about what the U.S. and the banks have done to South America to get them to the point where a few are finally starting to say no more. It would be easier to see why the regime running us right now are angry and frustrated with Chavez and some others who are fighting.

The former rich Presidents who became more rich under the U.S. are fewer.

A good example of what has happened to the people of South America is going on now in Bolivia. Bechtel wants the people of Bolivia to pay them for water - to start.

This isn't just about Che and Chavez - this is about all of South America.

Including the Paraguayan President who has allowed King Moon to purchase millions of acres of land and is allowing the U.S. military to build bases (to fight terrorists). Of course, it means nothing to the U.S. that Paraguay being part of the world's largest aquafir (said with all sarcasm).

I would suggest not talking about Che and concentrating on all of South American today. Good luck finding the time to study it all. I wish I had the time, but if you do you will be one step ahead of knowing about what our right wing rulers are already planning for and acting on.

Study oil and water and the other earth resources (including drugs and hamburgers) and you will learn about who gets excoriated and who gets violent and who is targeted for the slave working markets.

[northzax]

11. well, this was random

anyway, Chavez was imprisoned in the 80's for leading a military coup against the government of Venezuela. The noted rightist organizations Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have a long list of unsolved murders of political opponents of Chavez. Military leaders don't exactly have the best track record in Latin America, do they?

[rman]

13. Indeed Chavez survived two failed coups,

one that he led and one against him.

US-backed capitalists - and in fact, the US itself - also don't have the best track-record in Latin America.

I suppose you know about how the commercial Venezuelan media are owned by Chavez opponents and how they lied outright about the shooting that took place during the clash of an anti-Chavez crowd and Chavez supporters shortly before the coup against Chavez. The bloodbath was the plausible reason for the coup - but all the victims were Chavez supporters shot by snipers. The brief reign of the opposition was extremely brutal towards Chavez supporters. The next day the people marched on the presidential palace, and the rest is history. Those guys are backed by the US government, and apparently financed and supported via National Endowment for Democracy.

[Township75]

3. Che was known to execute homosexuals and to be a sexist...

, but please consider the time and where he grew up. South America back then, and to some extent today ,still harbors those types of feelings especially in men.

I consider his homophobia and sexism to be no different than our founding fathers owning slaves...it was a sign of the times, and I don't hold that against either of them.

However, executing homosexuals is inexecusable.

Supposedly, Che also laughed when asked by a reporter if Cuba would ever have democratic elections after Castro came into power.

ON EDIT: I am not telling you one way or the other what to think about Che or do with his icon...I just wanted to point out there is some truth to criticisms you will hear about Che should you use his image.

[northzax]

6. and let's not forget

that Che was, in essence, Castro's enforcer.

[Township75]

9. Likely his worse act, IMHO...

I admire Che for giving up a relatively good life as a doctor in south america from a good family to fight for an ideal, but my admiration stops there.

Before I read a few of his books, and books about him, I just figured he was a militant anti capitalist/imperialist...after reading the books, I found that it just wasn't the case.

I kinda get irked by seeing young white kids wearing Che shirts who likely have no idea about who it is and his background...then I saw a really funny Che shirt with his standard face image and it said Viva La Ignorant Rich White Kids!


Maybe I should buy that one:)

[Toots]

4. Why would you use Che images and tout Chavez if you know nothing about the

:shrug: They are not at all similar. Chavez is a Democratically elected leader of a major South American country. Che led a rebel force trying to impose a form of government on the people..Just because both are on the left hand side of the political scale does not make them the same...

[mrgorth]

8. Never said they were the same

Che's image is used a lot over here and on the left and I've read good things about Chavez on here.

[Bridget Burke]

7. Several good "Che" biographies came out a few years ago.

Jon Anderson did much research in Cuba & elsewhere before he wrote "Che Guevara, A Revolutionary Life." I don't remember any references to execution of homosexuals. You can search the book itself:
www.amazon.com/gp/product/0802135587/ref=sib_vae_dp/104-8003467-1033556?%5Fencoding=UTF8&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER&no=283155&st=books&n=283155

Jorge Castaneda wrote "Companero, the Life & Death of Che Guevara." Castaneda was an adviser to Presidente Fox & served as Foreign Minister. He's a professor & has appeared on US TV.

Paco Ignacio Taibo II wrote "Guevara, Also Known as Che." He advised Cuauhtemoc Cardenas--who was probably cheated out of the Presidency in 1988--& ran against Fox. Taibo, also a professor, is a proud Leftist & writer of wonderful mysteries.

All these books point out that Che was a soldier. Soldiers do kill, unfortunately. During the revolution, Batista's army was famous for killing prisoners & leaving their own wounded to die. The rebels treated captives well. Therefore, many Batista deserters joined their ranks.

After the revolution, Che did carry out some executions--but not as many as his detractors claim. Unfortunately, homosexuals were persecuted--but they were NOT executed.

Ask for some facts. Check the sources of the facts.

Lazaro Saavedra presented this installation at the 6th Biennial in Havana. The setting is the room where executions occurred--before & after the revolution.


I met the artist years ago when he visited Houston. He had many humorous comments on life in Cuba, but was happy to sell some art & return home. Of course, that sort of cultural exchange is no longer allowed--by OUR government.

[Tarc]

12. right-wingers are rater hypocritical

if they bellyache about Che Guevara's violent past on the one hand, and then openly condone torture of terrorist suspects on the other. Also, rememebr what was happening in Cuba back then; Bautista's regime was as corrupt and brutal as can be, and it was propped up and supported by the US.

I use the infamous Che portrait as an avatar on a number of other forums, and whenever some righty has a little hissy fit about his past deeds, I just grin and say "can't make an omlette without breakign a few eggs, eh?" That usually flusters em enough so they drop it.