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[pnziii]

1. NO

and let me make that perfectly clear NO

[liberalnurse]

30. Same here......I gave willingly and freely.

No strings attatched....I just gave another $50 yesterday. I'll give more next week.....I got to pay the girls cheerleading and gymnastic fee's first.

[jenk]

2. they're devoted

I haven't seem such level of devotion, I don't support Dean but he could go 10 mil in debt and the dean supporters would bail him out

they'll continue to keep him on financial life support until feb. 3, if he stays in the single digits in these states and does poorly, they'll abandon ship

[chimpymustgo]

4. Laugh or cry?

People living on disability checks sending money to Dean after he PISSED AWAY 40 million dollars.

[jenk]

23. it's useless

you'll never talk them out of it. The bat goes up and the next day it's filled.

[aquart]

11. Are you saying Edwards supporters aren't devoted?

I'm sure they should be.

[chimpymustgo]

25. JRE fans are dedicated, passionate, and fiscally responsible.

nt

[jenk]

31. well, we know our money is being spent well

The campaign has plenty of resources now, they can compete in plenty more states on feb. 3 than originally expected, and I don't think we'll be purchasing 3500 orange knit caps and 500 pizza's.

[aquart]

60. Excellent. I'm sure you'll win this time.

[displacedtexan]

74. Edwards is out of money, too.

http://tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/9850

[displacedtexan]

75. Edwards is almost out of money, too.

He couldn't afford to hire 20 of Gep's staff.
http://tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/9850

Sorry for the double post!

[JasonBerry]

3. yes

I am pissed about the whole thing. When I returned from Iowa and New Hampshire, I couldn't believe it had only been two weeks since I had left home and Dean was atop the polls and things looked good. Mistakes were made. Kerry's ads were so much better than ours and I could feel the crumbling. I would have to say that -yes- I am not happy with alot of things.

[THUNDER HANDS]

18. is that why Trippi was let go?

Trippi had a big hand in the ads that were run. Being up in NY I never saw them, why were Kerry's better than Dean's?

[JasonBerry]

40. Trippi and

I really think that Steve McMahon must share the blame with Trippi. The thing is, the firm is Trippi, McMahon & Squire. I am not happy with the way the whole thing was set-up in the first place. The ads? Kerry's were sharper - shot with a soft lens, crisper message, better voice-over, where do I stop? I will be very interested to see what is rolled out for Michigan, etc.

[AntiCoup2K4]

5. I honestly don't know enough facts about the story to comment

...but I've heard nothing to suggest it was Dean's doing.

[molly]

8. Who then did the dirty deed?

[aquart]

6. Thank you for your concern.

But it wasn't a dime of your money, was it?

It's very comforting that you worry about us. Perhaps we'll remember such thoughtfulness in future.

[molly]

10. If it had been 1 little dime of my money - I would be filing charges

[Cuban_Liberal]

16. You'd have no legal basis to do so. n/t

[bbmykel]

32. whatever (n/t)

[Bozola]

39. I would have ceased to be "your" money once you donated it

Filing charges over what?

Throwing HUGE amounts of money into the wind is what campaigning is about. $40 million doesn't go far anymore, especially if what used to a "freebie", balanced press coverage, no longer exists.

Campaigns are all about pissing huge amounts of money into the wind. If you don't like it, don't donate.

[MODemocrat]

58. people spend thousands of dollars on sports events

and they sure don't get anything back for it. It all goes to the jocks. My little $50.00 - $100.00 to Dean's campaign shouldn't
bother anyone, because it's none of their damned business. I don't
spend one dime on gambling, drinking, smoking, or any vices; it so
happens that I love Howard Dean, and it is my privilege to support
his campaign. If Dean gives it up, my support will go to Clark or
Edwards, but not until.... :argh:

[DemBones DemBones]

69. Team supporters want the coach fired when he loses,

so it's more similar than it seems at first thought. The issue isn't whether anyone is "bothered" by you making any size contribution you care to, up to the limit, of course. The issue is whether your money, and thousands of other people's money, was spent unwisely.

I don't think anyone can seriously argue that spending the entire war chest by the time the Iowa caucuses and NH primary were over was a wise political decision. When your candidate has to ask his staff of 500 people to go without pay for the next two weeks so the campaign doesn't have to go into debt, it sends some disturbing messages.

[Name removed]

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[mouse7]

7. Very ticked off. Very disappointed.

I'm still kinda stunned by the developments. When I try to describe the feeling... it's still more emotional content in my mind than words. I'm just not able to really put a finger on the words I want to describe my feelings yet.

[Cuban_Liberal]

9. May I ask a question?

Why are Kerry supporters continuing to pick at Dean supporters over issues which are absolutely of no concern to them, the Kerry supporters, whatsoever? If Dean supporters ARE concerned about it, then I would suggest letting a DEAN supporter raise the issue in a thread.

Just my $.02.

[molly]

13. Maybe because we protect our own DEMs - huh?

[Cuban_Liberal]

20. Yeah, I've noticed how 'protective' y'all have been of Dean supporters.

Give me a break! :eyes:

[LuminousX]

81. Am I 'Your' Dem?

Are the Dean supporters children who need to have the wisened hands of Kerry supporters to guide them and prevent them from making foolish mistakes? Thanks for the patronization.

[Myra]

26. Nicely said Cuban_Liberal. This thread seems rather divisive and

opportunistic. Supporters tend to emulate their candidates.

[bbmykel]

41. PeteNYC has not made divisive posts in the past

So I don't impugn his motives here. I think he is asking a legitimate question. If it turns divisive, it will be some of the other Kerry supporters who ARE DIVISIVE jumping in like clockwork. Oh look, there they are now...

[Name removed]

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[Cuban_Liberal]

46. It just seems in rather poor taste to bring it up at all.

Most Dean supporters I know have about one nerve left, and stuff like this gets on that one. As I said earlier, why not let a DEAN supporter raise the issue since it is of absolutely NO concern to the Kerry campaign whatsoever. :shrug:

[Name removed]

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[Cuban_Liberal]

52. Until somone sends Dr. Dean some money, ...

... I would respectfully suggest that their current interest seems rather voyeuristic in nature. If they HAVE donated to the Dean campaign, then perhaps their interest cannot be dismissed so lightly. As it now stands, whatever the finances of the Dean campaign, it has neither 'picked their pocket nor broken their leg.'

[rucky]

42. I just spent yer $.02

on Beer and Hookers

Seriously, we should all be concerned about a self-proclaimed fiscal conservative, running a "people-powered" campaign, who blows through that much cash in such a short period of time. I don't blame Dean, but I think it has something to do with Trippi's departure.

I've contributed to the Dean & Kucinich campaigns. Seems I'm getting more bang for my buck with DK. I don't feel betrayed, but the Dean camp owes their supporters an explanation.

[LuminousX]

82. Owes an explanation? No it doesn't.

Have they had some questionable expenses, like sending Zephyr Teachout on a tour teaching people about community organization? Yes. Why in hell should Dean be paying to teach people who may not be his supporters how to politically organize? Oh, wait, I'm sorry, it's because he fucking cares about more than this election.

If suddenly evidence of drugs and hookers being bought with donations surface, then an explanation will be required by me. Until then, I'm stil funding the Dean Movement.

[bearfartinthewoods]

90. because they are trying to dry up dean's support?

just a guess.....

[Merlin]

12. Yes. Why the hell didn't Howard know about the Trippi commission deal?

Trippi took more than $3 million out of the $40 million Dean raised, apparently. (Although we haven't had any really straight reporting with factual details on this yet--at least none that I've seen.)

Evidently Trippi cut himself in for a 15% commission on all Dean's ads. That means he had a vested interest in running scads of them without regard to their effectiveness.

He didn't get a piece of production costs, so he didn't put much effort into their creativity. Hence Howard was sliced and diced not just in the media but also by his own media campaign.

This is one of the great political tragedies of our time. But in the end, I have to admit that Howard himself should have known what was going on.

[JasonBerry]

48. Of course he knew

He knew. He hired Trippi, McMahon & Squire early and, of course he knew the details. It was a ripoff and Dean, in my opinion, wasn't thinking about the money involved when the numbers got this high. By the way, Trippi didn't personally get a cut for the production costs (he cashed in on the buys) -- but the firm did!

[rucky]

54. 15% is a standard agency commission

But the client expects quality & results in return, or they go shopping for another agency.

These guys can work fast when the need to. Dean is far from finished.

[JasonBerry]

61. 15% --- plus being the campaign manager.

The problem was the arrangement that allowed Tripp to receive the commission on the paid media and also receive his check as campaign manager. This is not normal procedure. In fact, it raised a lot of eyebrows when it was inked months ago. Holding those two hats is a conflict of quick-hit personal success versus longterm campaign success. I agree -and hope- that Dean isn't finished, but I'm still very unhappy with the whole thing.

[ModerateMiddle]

78. Trippi didn't get a salary as Campaign Manager

He worked for free. Except for some kind of commission on the advertising. How much that commission was has been speculated upon, but isn't cut and dried.

I do see a problem with it being Trippi's firm that did the advertising, considering how poorly received they were for the most part. Perhaps a campaign manager not partial to a particular ad firm would have been more objective and shopped around earlier.

If you haven't read the article in GQ about Trippi, it would be good for everyone to do so. The guy's heart was really in this one.

http://us.gq.com/plus/content/?040127plco_trippi

[clarknyc]

14. The actual story of what happened isn't clear yet.

I'll wait for some definitive information before passing judgement. And by the way, my support for Dean has not wavered.

[LuminousX]

85. Ahhh, a realistic point-of-view, waiting for information before judging

thank you.

[Eloriel]

17. I'm far more uncomfortable with Senators

sending young (and not so young) men and women to fight and die and get maimed and psychologically scarred for life in an unnecessary, illegal, immoral, unjust and unjustifiable war just so they don't harm their own political ambitions.

[THUNDER HANDS]

27. voting, not sending

Bush sent them. Edwards and Kerry made two votes that didn't effect the outcome of the already-made decision to go to war.

[aquart]

59. Oh my word!

What a beautiful rationale! Bush was going to war anyway so voting for it didn't matter!

I'm so impressed! I'm just well, WOW!

Now that's brazen.

[JVS]

68. We'd better let Kucinich supporters know that his IRW vote didn't matter.

Since there was going to be a war anyway, I guess he'd have been better off playing cards or something. Why waste your time opposing a poorly justified war, when you can be politically smart like Kerry.
I'm sure they'd be interested in discovering that news.

[JVS]

66. Yeah, senate votes don't count

:eyes:

[JVS]

65. Maybe you should start a thread asking if that bothers others too.

I bet that it does

[tinanator]

19. what do I think happened?

Glad I asked. I believe Trippi and Dean saw the writing on Iowa and NH's walls and needed to put a little something away for a rainy day.
Thats what I believe. Anything else would be like saying Enron went broke. You can say it, but it cannot be true.

[mopinko]

21. oh, puleeze

any dean supporters uncomforatble with the constant b.s. here at du?
yes indeedy.
how about nobody crying here that didn't actually donate any money.
i sent another $50 today. we will all have to max out to overcome the spin machine, including the spinners here.

[MercutioATC]

22. Why is this of such concern to the Kerry camp?

Seems a lot of Kerry supporters are worried about this issue. I'm just curious as to why?

[Cuban_Liberal]

28. Excellent question.

One I asked, too.

[THUNDER HANDS]

34. I donated to his campaign

And I don't care what they do with it. I didn't specify it be used for anything in particular. But just as a political observer, I'd say something has gone terribly wrong in the Dean campaign.

And I think you see what happens when you run a bottom-up campaign that just happens to be raking in money hand-over-fist.

[wryter2000]

24. No eom

eom

[bbmykel]

29. Yes

I imagine there are quite a few. Dean shares responsibility for allowing this situation to develop but I believe Trippi is the one who set the strategy. Also, it's disappointing because, even though they do monitor the grassroots input they get, a lot of very good input was ignored. Many folks told them not to go negative. Many folks told them that the ads needed to be better. I think Trippi is largely responsible for those two areas.

I would have expected better use of the funds, but I can see where it was devised as a "go for broke" strategy to basically end the campaign in Iowa and New Hampshire (and, ironically, maybe they did :-p).

I don't think they spent it irrationally or without a reason. Also, if it had worked, no one would be worrying about it now; it's easy to have a post-mortem on a strategy that failed.

Mike

[copithorne]

37. What Cuban Liberal said

Why are Kerry supporters continuing to pick at Dean supporters over issues which are absolutely of no concern to them, the Kerry supporters, whatsoever? If Dean supporters ARE concerned about it, then I would suggest letting a DEAN supporter raise the issue in a thread.

[bbmykel]

44. I would agree but

I don't put PeteNYC in that category.

I don't think there is any shame in discussing what's happened. The people who want to attack will do it whoever starts the thread.

[killbotfactory]

33. If they really did spend it all on Iowa and NH

then yes.

I'd like to see something other than rumors, though.

[ModerateMiddle]

79. Probably not JUST Iowa and NH

They had paid staff in many states. I was reading in The State (SC rag) that outlined who had what kind of organization in SC. They were dissing Kerry cuz he had only 7 paid staff there, and only about 300 volunteers. Edwards had 9 staff and many more volunteers. I forget what Clark had, but it was a bit more than those two.

Dean, OTOH, had 50 (FIFTY) paid staff members in South Carolina.

The Dean campaign prided itself on running a NATIONAL campaign, which required spending money all over the country. The paid staff in SC is indicative of that effort.

I do agree that the strategy was to run Iowa and NH and become the presumptive nominee going into these 7 Feb 3 states, with huge momentum.

It was a gamble, just like Clark's gamble that Kerry would be knocked out in Iowa and he could be the anti-Dean in NH a week later.

Kerry gambled too. He literally bet the house on being able to show well in Iowa and ride that momentum into NH.

[dave29]

35. Now that the rest of the candidates

are trying to sound like Dean (even the frontrunner), I think it might have been money well spent, regardless of the outcome.

;)

p.s. I still wholeheartedly support Howard Dean - and expect him to win the nomination.

[On the Road]

93. Great Post!

So maybe we get a Dean-lite now. Better than a Bush-lite!

:toast:

[ibegurpard]

36. See here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=223776&mesg_id=223776

[EXE619K]

38. No..not really.

When DFA first started, no one gave him much of a chance. But, they came a long way since and I'm proud of that.

Now, one could say that spending all that money on two states was kinda silly, but, if that was the strategy since we started to pick up the "Mo"....I don't fault them for this.

I've always had my doubts about Dean "electability" issue as well. But, I joined this campaign not because of "electability" but for a message and by looking at the other campaigns and their respective candidates now (and how Dean has changed the dynamics of this race because of his presence)....it was well worth it.

I told my mother several months ago that if the Dems nominated Dean for the general election, they would be taking a huge gamble and I still think this to be true.
No matter what others say about this "two-state" strategy, I don't support Dean with "electability" in mind.

Sure, it'll be nice to see my guy win, but the message got out there and that's the most important thing for me.

I've supported and will continue the support for Dean as long as he's in the race.

But, That's just my opinion.

on edit: duped sentence

[bbmykel]

47. Great post! (n/t)

[Sterling]

43. How do you feel about Kerry letting Bush of the hook?

Towing the GOP line of deflecting blame for lies about Iraq WMDs on the CIA. Just like he has always done he plays backstop for the BFEE.

[molly]

49. Denial?

[ibegurpard]

55. Yeah, that would explain it.

Denial would certainly go a long way toward explaing why people would support Kerry considering these points.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

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[bbmykel]

53. This place has just gotten ugly

Mother Teresa would be trashed here.

I can't claim to like Kerry much, but when supporters like you post, I feel better about him and the possiblity of voting for him because I have come to respect your posts. If only all supporters of candidates realized this!

[eissa]

63. I never did like her wardrobe

or her anti-abortion stance ;-)

[ibegurpard]

56. While everyone else gets a pass?!!!

Perhaps you were absent when Dean was the perceived front-runner?

[foo_bar]

62. DU hates a frontrunner

Whoever's first in national polls is second in DU polls. It's like a mini New Hampshire or Vermont.

[LuminousX]

89. Everyone else gets a pass? Where have you been?

Dean and Clark have been raked over the coals here. Now it is Kerry's turn. Welcome to hell.

[dave29]

57. I don't feel so bad

I've given a decent amount of money, but I haven't taken a loan out against my house or anything.

[deutsey]

64. No, not in the slightest

I take issue with your characterization of the campaign "mismanaging" donations. The Dean campaign had your guy, Gephardt, the GOP and the corporate media slamming him (and those of us who support him) on every side. I think it's amazing that Dean came out of that gangbang with a third and second place. The campaign had to do something against that, and, in our wonderful capitalisitc society, "doing something" had a huge price tag stuck to it.

Who bears responsibility? See my reference above to the gangbangers.

PS: And if you think I'm just some Dean zealot, let me say that I was an early supporter of Kerry (like, December 2001) and I've defended Kerry on DU even after leaving his camp. I'll vote for the guy if he gets the nomination, but not very enthusiastically.

[waldenx]

67. you won't get converts like this.

keep digging.

[LuminousX]

84. They don't want converts

They feel as though they can win against Bush without Dean supporters or Dean supporters will gladly toe the party line and vote for Kerry just to get rid of Bush. That may be so, and I will do everything I can to get a Democrat elected this year, but once that occurs, I'm really going to analyze whether or not I think the Democratic party truly represents what I want.

These has been pure bullshit.

[Sly Kal]

70. No

But thank you for your sincere concern.

[tinanator]

71. P.T. Barnum was such an optimist

woefully underestimated production.

[jsw_81]

72. It's kind of disturbing to see so many committed Dean supporters

Even though the Dean campaign has clearly mismanaged and squandered about $40 million without winning even a single primary or caucus, and even though the campaign is collapsing and Trippi is gone and Dean has no real chance of winning the nomination, these folks (some of whom are struggling paycheck to paycheck) are still lining up to give the campaign even more cash.

It's sad to see how True Believers react when their dreams are shattered; I guess they just don't want to face reality. But they'll have to eventually.

[MercutioATC]

73. Thanks for the concern. We're fine, trust me.

Are results so far what we'd hoped for? No. Do we STILL think that we have the only candidate who'll make real changes? Absolutely.

I'd rather spend my money on somebody I believe in than somebody who's popular at the moment. If WE aren't that upset about your alleged "mismanagement", why should you be?

[Lexingtonian]

76. It's a religion

so contrary facts will be accommodated. Contrary complete realities, evidently less so even though a valiant attempt is being made....

What has troubled me is that all the central tenets are negatives (no IWR, no 'insiders', no 'Bush lite', no Bush, no liberals, no incumbents) without real positive solutions, all of which is mounted on a Republican-derived will-to-power approach. And we're watching the will-to-power part getting creamed by reality now.

[deutsey]

77. Most religions, at their heart,

are interested in confronting and dealing with hard realities and attenuating one's inner self with a larger, ultimate reality.

Yes, there are many fanatics of all faiths who are disconnected from that heart, and I gather that's the connection you're trying to make between Dean supporters and religion.

But I find this comment insulting and condescending to people of faith in general and Dean supporters in particular. You apparently have no idea about the motivations of either, but instead choose to apply some broad generalization to a wide variety of people who are motivated, even if some political activists are not aware of it, by the same aspirations found in the prophetic social justice traditions in most religions.

The people I know in both faith communities and in the Dean campaign are very much about positives derived from the tenets of prophetic social justice. The prophetic role (and I don't mean "prophecy" as in telling the future) is to point out what's wrong in a society's power structures, true, but it also emphasizes the positives of hope, justice, and inclusiveness for everyone, particularly the poor and marginalized who are exploited and shut out by the very power structures that are supposed to serve them along with everyone else in a society.

No to IWR? How about yes to constitutional checks and balances that don't give the president the supreme authority to wage war at will.

No to insiders? How about yes to egalitarianism?

No to Bush-lite? How about yes to leaders who aren't afraid to stand on traditional principles that the Democratic Party has championed since at the least the '30s?

No to Bush? How about yes to elected leaders with a vision for a better America for everyone?

No to liberals? How about yes to regular rank-and-file people empowered to participate in the democratic process, "average" people not interested in ideology so much as just wanting a better life for themselves, their families, their communities, their country, their world?

No to incumbents? How about yes to fresh leadership with new ideas about governing and about resurrecting our dying democratic vitality by inspiring real participation in the process beyond just showing up on voting day at the polls?

The "will to power" of regular people who have joined a movement to reclaim our country (and this movement precedes Dean) may be getting creamed, but I don't see where that's anything to celebrate. But, as Martin Luther King said, "Shattered dreams are a hallmark of our mortal life."

That's a painful reality to deal with, but religions can help to make sense of such a reality, as well as to inspire people to pick up the shattered pieces and begin to rebuild a new reason to hope again.

[LuminousX]

83. Nice... working in the cult meme AND a subtle reference to Nazis

Good job.

[LuminousX]

80. Mismanagement? Do we have proof of that?

[Hep]

86. Mismanagement?

Where is the evidence of mismanagement?

[Duder]

87. Are Kerry supporters uncomfortable that he's portrayed as a gigolo?

That's a claim that has more substance to it, imo.

[Ramsey]

88. I need more information

This is one of several threads (unfortunately mostly started by Kerry supporters) claiming that the Dean campaign has "mismanaged" their money, that the money has gone "down the toilet", etc.

What I haven't seen is an explanation of how the money was spent and whether the expenditures were reasonable. Perhaps I have missed the explanation, as I do not live on DU, so if there are links I have missed to articles explaining how the Dean campaign "mismanaged" its money, I would certainly be interested in reading them. After all, I have given them a lot of money, not to mention time and effort.

At this juncture, I am assuming the money was spent legitimately on campaign operations in the 27+ states where Dean has staff and ground operations. We know that he has spent a quarter of the money on television ads, which I heard one pundit say was less than expected proportionally. We also know that a year ago Dean was a virtual unknown, and he has had a very big push to increase his visibility across the country, not just in selected states. So until I see evidence to the contrary, I am going to assume the money was spent on legitimate campaign activities and not flushed "down the toilet" or "mismanaged".

Let us not forget the Bush campaign has already spent something like $20 million and he has no opposition and isn't even officially campaigning yet. Dean has been running a full blown campaign nationwide for over a year.

[LuminousX]

91. Dean paid to teach people how to politcally organize

Dean paid to develop his internet campaign and then has freely given it to anyone who wants it.

Dean has opened offices in more states than is normal as he has tried to campaign nationally. Dean has spent money campaigning in states normally ignored by Presidential campaigns.

$36 million has been spent so far. I'm a bit uncomfortable with that burnrate, but I don't feel as though it has been mismanaged. I do feel as though they were overconfident in winning (which would have turned into more donations) but that is neither here nor there. They realized the error and are taking steps to correct it all the while doing most of it in public under scrutiny instead of quietly behind the scenes. Trippi didn't suddenly say "I need to spend more time with my family."

I have immense respect for Dean and Trippi. God bless both of them.

[LuminousX]

92. In light of this pathetic thread, I donated a full $100 today

I was only going to give $50 and then wait until the nomination was declared and give $125 to the nominee (out of my budget of $200 for the Presidential election.) I decided Dean will get it all as long as he stays in the race until Feb 15.

[mrgorth]

94. I'm pissed

but pissed at Trippi. I love the guy and all...what he's done for us, but there is no excuse for pissing away all that money. First, the ads should've been better. Second, he should've had pros doing the ads. Third, a good second would've been enough in IA. We should not have been dragged into trench warfare with Gep. Fourth, any lack of organization is unforgivable. They had plenty of time to pull this together. Lastly, he should've stayed on to work with the web team. His leaving makes it look like Dean sacrificed him

One last point. I'm still for Dean.