Democrats (and DU'ers) are ducking the issues Murtha raised

[welshTerrier2]

Democrats should be applauded for their newly discovered combativeness ... they stood up to the republicans' anti-Murtha stunt yesterday in one of those "we're mad as hell and we're not going to take it anymore" moments ...

and their calls for investigations about the "manufacturing and manipulation" of evidence that led to war was long overdue ... it's great they're raising the issue now ...

but none of these battles changes the discussion on where we are today on Iraq ... Congressman Murtha did NOT just call for IMMEDIATE REDPLOYMENT of American troops; he provided a list of justifications to make his case ... Democrats owe the entire world, the American people, fellow Democrats and especially those in the Party who agree with Murtha that the war should be stopped NOW a real discussion on the justifications Murtha raised ... so far, they are ducking the points he made ...

those Democrats who do NOT believe the troops should be redeployed out of Iraq NOW owe us answers to Murtha's arguments ... they are certainly free to disagree with his conclusions but they are NOT free to ignore the facts and assessments he made ...

in addition to Murtha's justification for IMMEDIATE REDPLOYMENT shown below, those who disagree should also be able to explain exactly why they support continued occupation knowing that bush is in power, he's incompetent and his motives are to remain in Iraq indefinitely ... why can anything positive happen by remaining in Iraq even one more day with bush running the show???

if Democrats don't address these key points, they are turning their backs on an honest discussion with those who oppose the war ... and this is not just addressed to elected Democrats; DU'ers who agree with Clark, Kerry, Warner, Edwards, Clinton and other potential candidates owe us the same explanation ... many of these DU'ers use the "circular firing squad" label and decry the lack of Party unity but it is they who are causing the problems here by refusing to engage a real discussion on the issues that separate us ... so the gauntlet is being thrown down and the challenge issued ... the tone need not be hostile but the questions do have to be answered and discussed ...

Here is a list of Murtha's justifications for IMMEDIATE REDEPLOYMENT ... If you disagree with his position, please indicate whether you accept the following as fact and then explain why you don't think his arguments provide adequate justification to withdraw NOW ... thank you ...

and when you're done with that, please read General Odom's "9 points" on why the top 9 arguments against "cutting and running" are not correct ... here's a link to his article:
http://www.niemanwatchdog.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=ask_this.view&askthisid=129

1. "the American public is way ahead of the members of Congress" ...
2. he quoted General Casey who stated that "the American occupation of Iraq is a major driving force behind the insurgency" ...
3. "the future of our military is at risk" ...
4. "recruitment is down even as the military has lowered its standards" ...
5. "the war in Iraq has caused huge shortfalls in our bases at home" ...
6. "over 2079 confirmed American deaths and over 15,500 have been seriously injured ... and it's estimated that over 50,000 will suffer from what i call battle fatigue" ...
7. "oil production and energy production are below pre-war levels - you remember they said that was going to pay for the war" ...
8. "unemployment is 60%" ... "clean water is scarce" ...
9. "and most importantly, this is the most important point - incidents have increased from 150 per week to over 700 (a week) in the last year" ...
10. "attacks have grown dramatically" ... "since Abu Ghraib, American casualities have doubled (i.e. the rate of casualties)" ... "if you look at the timeline you'll see one a day (i.e. American deaths) before Abu Ghraib; after Abu Ghraib you'll see two a day" ...
11. "i sent a letter to the President last September and i got an answer back five months later" ... "i believe the same today; they don't want input" ...
12. "our troops have become the primary target of the insurgency" ... "they are united against US forces and we have become a catalyst for violence" ... "US troops are the common enemy of the Sunni, the Saddamists and the foreign jihadists" ...
13. "over 80% of Iraqis are strongly opposed to the presence of coalition forces and about 45% of the Iraqi population believe attacks against American troops are justified" ...

[xchrom]

1. i just want to throw gen.{?} odom in the mix.

he has laid well rationed reasons for our redeployment or withdrawal -- however you care to describe it.

most important is the fact that our presence is the fuel for the insurgent fire.

[welshTerrier2]

4. Link to General Odom's arguments for withdrawal

Odom took the 9 main arguments made against "cutting and running" ...

Those who think we can't or shouldn't do that should read what he said and ensure that you're comfortable disagreeing with him ...

Here's a link to his arguments: http://www.niemanwatchdog.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=ask_this.view&askthisid=129

thanks for raising this point !! i'm going to add this to the OP ...

[omega minimo]

13. WT2 your posts always maximize DU's potential, thank you.

Thanks to you both for the Odom point list-- reading your OP I thought it would fit it perfectly and then there it was. John McLaughlin played tape of Gen. Odom and went point by point down the list on TMcG last night.

One thing that puzzles me is, if the haughty WH denials of "misleading" the nation to war is added to this mix.... why isn't DSM being mentioned? And Plame! Why isn't the WHOLE case being made right now?

nominated :toast:

[calimary]

22. Kicked and recommended. I couldn't agree more.

We HAVE TO get out. We just HAVE TO. The SOONER THE BETTER. None of this "you broke it you fix it" CRAP. Sorry. IRRELEVANT.

Our very presence there is only aggravating the insurgency, and exacerbating the problem. We are, in effect, like a Bizarro World firefighter, seeking to put out the fire by throwing gasoline on it. All we're doing is making it worse. Besides, as long as we're there, WHERE is the motivation for Iraqi forces to stand up for themselves? Any mom trying to teach her baby to start walking knows this. As long as you carry the kid around and don't let him/her try to stand and walk on his/her own, the child will be perfectly happy allowing you to carry him/her around as long as possible. It's PURE, SIMPLE Introduction to Human Nature 101. They instinctively know they don't have to do any heavy lifting or take any serious responsibility for their own defense - BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO. The U.S. is still there taking the brunt of it, so why should they sweat it? Especially when our refusal to give any timetables for withdrawal (oh, gosh, can't give any advance notice to The Terrists, can we?!?!?!?!) doesn't give the IRAQIS any idea by when THEY THEMSELVES need to stand up and take over.

The mentality in operation here is just staggering. And we have to remember one other VERY significant thing, part of what lets Murtha be Murtha: HE'S BEEN THERE. He's BEEN THERE, okay? He SAW combat. He's a DECORATED WAR VETERAN. He's actually worn his country's uniform in battle, and knows what the battlefield is like, first-hand. Those who criticize him and try in any number of veiled ways to slam him as a coward or an Osama-lover (remember what they did to Max Cleland) or an anti-patriot, or somehow unamerican, are card-carrying CHICKENHAWKS, by OVERWHELMING MAJORITIES. Those who THINK they know best, and run around strutting with the flag and the glories of war wrapped around themselves have NEVER SEEN WAR AT ALL. For most of these pathetic, disgraceful HATE-triots, all they know about war they learned from John Wayne movies. Consider the source.

It's LONG PAST time to stop the excuses and push 'em into the pool so they swim or sink. The longer we stay, the worse it'll get.

Oh yes, and BTW - for all those jean schmidts and duncan hunters who claim they have all these emails from troops saying "stay the course," WE'VE got THESE (and more):

Letters to Michael Moore

(snip - just one example here:)

From: Michael W
Sent: Tuesday July 13 2004 12.28pm
Subject: Dude, Iraq sucks

My name is Michael W and I am a 30-year-old National Guard infantryman serving in southeast Baghdad. I have been in Iraq since March of 04 and will continue to serve here until March of 05.
In the few short months my unit has been in Iraq, we have already lost one man and have had many injured (including me) in combat operations. And for what? At the very least, the government could have made sure that each of our vehicles had the proper armament to protect us soldiers.
In the early morning hours of May 10, one month to the day from my 30th birthday, I and 12 other men were attacked in a well-executed roadside ambush in south-east Baghdad. We were attacked with small-arms fire, a rocket-propelled grenade, and two well-placed roadside bombs. These roadside bombs nearly destroyed one of our Hummers and riddled my friends with shrapnel, almost killing them. They would not have had a scratch if they had the "Up Armour" kits on them. So where was W on that one?
It's just so ridiculous, which leads me to my next point. A Blackwater contractor makes $15,000 <£8,400> a month for doing the same job as my pals and me. I make about $4,000 <£2,240> a month over here. What's up with that?
Beyond that, the government is calling up more and more troops from the reserves. For what? Man, there is a huge fucking scam going on here! There are civilian contractors crawling all over this country. Blackwater, Kellogg Brown & Root, Halliburton, on and on. These contractors are doing everything you can think of from security to catering lunch!
We are spending money out the ass for this shit, and very few of the projects are going to the Iraqi people. Someone's back is getting scratched here, and it ain't the Iraqis'!
My life is left to chance at this point. I just hope I come home alive.


http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/100604Y.shtml

There's a whole book full of these. There's also quite a few at the MFSO website - Military Families Speak Out.

[welshTerrier2]

23. i think that's a huge mistake the Dems are making

you asked about DSM ... you asked about Plame ...

THAT battle does NOT address the withdrawal issue AT ALL ... that's the problem i have with all this new combativeness ... it's become an obsession that totally fails to address the issue of WHERE WE ARE ...

and don't get me wrong ... i agree 110% with fighting the battle about bush's "manufacturing and manipulation" of pre-war intelligence ... it's not an "either-or" argument ... fighting that battle has helped weaken bush tremendously ... maybe it will even lead to impeachment and a few more indictments ...

BUT IT FAILS TO ADDRESS WITHDRAWAL ... i do NOT think it is valid or effective to argue that, since bush lied about the evidence, we should withdraw ... that's because even many Democrats believe that, now that we're there, we can't just leave ... so even if the historical justifications for the invasion are outed, the case for withdrawal would still not be made ...

again, fighting the historical battle about the lies is important ... but Democrats need to do more ... and if they won't call for IMMEDIATE REDPLOYMENT, they should first, explain which of Murtha's justifications they agree or disagree with, and then second, they should explain why, even if they agree with his facts and assessments, they have reached a different conclusion on the policy they favor ...

[omega minimo]

26. Point well taken: Focus. Also, the relevance of connecting these dots

came up last night....

On CBS or PBS news/talk Friday, this meme slipped in to the mix:

"Blah blah percentage of the public still supports Preemptive War." (while discussing W's nosedive in the polls) :wtf:!!! That's one of those bogus bait and switch questions, data is mined and the sound-bite delivered thru MSM... Meanwhile there has NEVER been a discussion on the policiy of Preemptive War. Bushco. took us there. That is relevant to discussing "WHERE WE ARE" and how we got there (including "fixing intelligence around the policy") and where we are going (even "who we are" perhaps).

DUers are asking today "OK Bush what IS 'Total Victory' in Iraq?" Good question. Which leads to another one:

What is "TOTAL WAR"? That's what they call it, right? The objective for staying in Iraq is being challenged by Murtha et al-- the objective of Preemptive or Total or Perpetual War leads right back to the bogus trail from 9-11 to Fallujah.

:bounce: :patriot:

[Upfront]

2. Accept

I agree with Murtha.

[lonestarnot]

3. We have "become the enemy," and the term enemy becomes us!

I don't find that label very becoming at a cost of billions per month and thousands of lives! K & R

[Burried News]

5. I subscribe to Murtha's views and General Odom's views

and General Zinni's, General Hoar's and Zbigniew Brezinski's views.

Even if the oppositions' views made sense, the clincher is:
"those who disagree should also be able to explain exactly why they support continued occupation knowing that bush is in power, he's incompetent and his motives are to remain in Iraq indefinitely ... why can anything positive happen by remaining in Iraq even one more day with bush running the show"

Thanks for another fine, thoughtful post.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

6. I not only agree with Murtha, I would add one

more...

The whole thing is just wrong, illegal, and wrong.

[rodeodance]

7. There is a tendency to go for the 'sensational' --like quotes--on DU

and bypass serious discussion. Thanks for the post.

[rodeodance]

8. and i am at fault of doing this also.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

11. are you saying that saying the war is wrong

is sensational?

I am confused.

[Marleyb]

9. I was just thinking the same thing

Rumsfeld: “Iraq is improving"- what evidence does he have?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2263461

[quaoar]

10. Professor Cole suggested a workable withdrawal

http://www.juancole.com/2005/08/ten-things-congress-could-demand-from.html

He calls for withdrawing from urban areas right away, then a phased withdrawal from Iraq altogether but offering ongoing air and logistical support to the Iraqi government.

Another way to do it -- my own idea here -- is to withdraw to Kurdistan and be close enough to respond if necessary.

[bvar22]

12. Kicked & Nominated

& waiting.

[mzmolly]

14. They are not ducking the issue, they want a chance to vote on it.

Further Murtha's "immediate" plan is a 6 month re-deployment, it's not immediate.

You can bet with a man like Murtha coming forward many will follow. He's got mega credibility on this issue.

[welshTerrier2]

17. please answer the questions raised in the OP

Murta used the words IMMEDIATE REDPLOYMENT ... he said it could be completed within 6 months but i understood him to be calling for starting the withdrawal NOW ...

do you agree with the 13 points he cited as HIS justification to redeploy? do you think we need to remain longer? do you think anything positive either has or can be achieved with bush in power?

correcting me on my use of the word "ducking" is fine; but it still doesn't clarify what YOU think about this issue ...

[mzmolly]

19. I agree fully with the points he made, and I wish Democrats would have

had an opportunity to vote on HIS actual resolution. I find it dishonest to suggest that Democrats don't support his position when MOST have not had a voice.

John Murtha is a voice of reason, integrity and immense knowledge on this issue. Who am I to question?

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. I don't think the dems are ducking

but there is so far you can go with your game of chess... last night the pukes were checkmated in a wonderful way...

[welshTerrier2]

18. how would you answer the questions raised in the OP

what policy do you think we should pursue in Iraq?

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. It is quite simole

we have to get out, but what happened last night is that this political theater opened the door to discusion, which was not there, let me rephrase it, the Dems blew the door off the hinges.

So that is what happened last night, and hstert will be kicking himslf once he realizes that

[Old and In the Way]

16. I agree...Republicans should put Murtha's complete resolution

up for vote. They won't, of course.

[welshTerrier2]

25. my point is ...

that Democrats should discuss Murtha's points among themselves ...

last night, they defended Murtha, the man ... and that was great !!

now they need to discuss the issues he raised ... supporting his right to speak out is very different than analyzing and discussing the facts he raised and the conclusion he reached ...

if the Democratic Party is to heal its differences and be taken seriously on policy, at some point we need to speak with one voice ... or at least we need to incorporate the arguments other Democrats have raised into our reasoning ...

[omega minimo]

27. This suggests another distinction

"supporting his right to speak out is very different than analyzing and discussing the facts he raised and the conclusion he reached"

2 different things


"...if the Democratic Party is to heal its differences and be taken seriously on policy, at some point we need to speak with one voice ... or at least we need to incorporate the arguments other Democrats have raised into our reasoning "

2 different approaches to SPEAKING TO THE CONGRESS AND NATION:

1 is pandering to the handlers, enablers, spinners, framers, crafters of artificial media presence via the cameras.

The second is what Murtha did-- he summoned the cameras and stood up and talked and advocated and railed and fumed and cried LIKE A GENUINE HUMAN BEING. (In addition to many other credentials, he had recently been in Iraq and witnessed for himself). He expressed the grief, anguish and outrage of We The People.

"Speaking with one voice" goes beyond substance, as the Macchievallian stylings of modern mediated politics are preeminent over meaning. This is another reason that connecting the dots of-that-which-is-actually-all-of-a-piece is considered too complex for politicians to convey, or for the bamboozled public to comprehend.

Which is, of course, nonsense.

[blm]

32. I don't get why you ASSUME that no one has addressed the whys?

Kerry already said that the Iraqis don't want us there and that more than a third of Iraq parliament wanted the US to plan for withdrawal. He said so in his speech, as he consulted with these members of Parliament when he was in Iraq in early Sept.

He also clearly stated that our presence was hurting the cause, and that is why there is no military victory possible at this point, and why REAL STEPS must be taken to PROVE to the Iraqis that we will not stay much longer, like get out of the permanent base business, hand them over to the Iraqis, and get American companies out of the business of rebuilding Iraq and let the Iraqis profit from the work.

Why you lump Kerry in with the others who never offered a withdrawal plan is beyond me.

I see clear signs of Kerry and Murtha working together to change the debate to one of withdrawal. I don't believe their timing on this was pure coincidence. Kerry waited 3 wks after he submits his withdrawal plan to schedule TV rounds?

I believe Murtha came out that morning knowing Kerry was scheduled and ready to get his back on the certain attacks from the GOP and to have a compromise, DOABLE withdrawal plan on the table as well.

[chknltl]

21. I agree with Murtha's points.

There is chaos over there now, we are the biggest generator for that chaos. Even if we were to "cut and run" that chaos will neither increase nor decrease at this point. The only folks mouthing the words "cut and run" are republicans. Immediate Redeployment will save lives, American lives at the very least, likely a lot of Iraqi lives too. IMO The longer we stay there the greater the odds that we WILL be fighting "them" over here and with a weakened military I might add.
:patriot:

[Cults4Bush]

24. I 100% agree, and I do belive that those Dems you cited have made it clear

that their plans and feelings regarding the illegal and immoral war and occupation are much shorter of what Murtha proposed.

I know some feel that this is all some master plan on behalf of the party, but I disagree we have several plans that are nothing more than mental masturbation for the party loyalists. Bushco wont ever enact anything from the Dems, obviously if a war hawk like Murtha can be excoriated in this manner than anyone to the left of him matters even less to the repugs. That being said there is no way any plan from the left or even the middle has a chance of enactment in the next 3 years, and the next 3 years being stuck in Iraq so we can "win", "fix", or "clean up" our mess is easily going to out pace the preceeding 2 as far as attrocities on both sides are concerened.

These attempts to say we have to stay and "fix" it otherwise there will be more death, continously forget that we are the number one reason why there is so much violence there on a day to day basis. We cannot win or fix a damn thing because we are the enemy and we suck at what we were supoosed to do, and we commited atrocities and war crimes... the whole damn thing is a war crime, to sit here and act like we can fix a thing is the height of arrogance, considering that Iraqis while having to go through a bloody struggle will eventually be able to do this on their own and It'll probably be that they absolutely hate us for many many years. The longer we stay the longer those feelings of hate will last.

Furthermore it is not just about Iraq and us anymore. It is about the world, the terrorists we are training in Iraq are going to effect not only the region but the world for many years to come, the longer we stay the more terrorists we make. How is that being a responsible party to the world?

If Dems do not rally around what Murtha has proposed and push it forward than truly all the talk of unity here on DU and Kos is for naught and is our partys own giant pair of rose colored glasses. Its time to take them off, the time for debate was last Spring when the DSMs came out. Now there is only time for something like Murthas plan. In the meantime more innocents are raped and killed in our name. I tend to think that makes debate within the party, again an exercise in mental masturbation and egogasms, both online and in the halls of power.

We are out of time and those that don't realize it and want to keep having discussions over how and when are taking liberties with the lives of the innocent, that they have no right to but every bit of power over.

Flame away.

[brindis_desala]

28. This war was destined to be a debacle but a civil war

could make it seem like a minor scuffle. Ironically, that fact may be the best reason FOR a speedy US withdrawal because not even the Russians or the French would want to see that happen. But our State Department has got to start re-learning the art of diplomacy.
This plan for US hegemony is hubris primed and may have already doomed us as a nation. The Democrats are correct to be very cautious about handling any withdrawal because the Bushistas have placed the country in an untenable posture and flirting with bankruptcy.
It will cost us but we need "Old Europe" as well as help from Iran and Syria. These can be bargained for but first we'll have to disabuse ourselves of the notion that the world can be bent to our will through force. The days of empire are over. We need multinational peacekeepers with a large Arab face. But first we'll have to put our money where our mouth is and get the water plants restored and the electricity up and running. We may even have to give up those coveted bases but at the least- get the hell out of Baghdad.

[omega minimo]

31. Brindis_d, how do you see this happening?

"But our State Department has got to start re-learning the art of diplomacy."

This prezdent has given the middle finger to the entire international community since the first week in office in 2001! And this plan was clear in that first week: "This plan for US hegemony is hubris primed and may have already doomed us as a nation." How can the "re-learn" what they never tried in the first place?

And with C. Rice in charge? No bloody way. Diplomacy can't come from this administration as it needs to.

What else could work?

"We need multinational peacekeepers with a large Arab face. But first we'll have to put our money where our mouth is and get the water plants restored and the electricity up and running."

Yeah, it's pretty amazing listening to the WH claim progress in Iraq, when the people are without water and power, let alone stability.

[niallmac]

29. The only reason I disagree with get out NOW.

The same reason the school fire drill mandated two straight lines and no talking.
The worst thing that can happen in an evacuation is that the act of egress causes
injury or death.

Do all the soldiers in Iraq leave tuesday? Not gonna happen. Cannot physically be done.
Even an asap evac of that many soldiers requires a considered careful draw down because no matter how hard you try someone has to be the last to go. Who covers their back?
Who can say what the response of Iraqis will be to a withdrawal of those who have been shooting and killing inside their country? I remember the Viet Nam fiasco.
I say get out as quickly and as safely as possible.
BTW- I have NO military experience and I could be completely FOS but maybe someone
with military experience can straighten me out if my concerns are misplaced.

[welshTerrier2]

34. this sounds perfectly reasonable

a group of progressive Democrats in the House, led by Congressman Jim McGovern, have developed a bill that calls for an immediate cut-off of funds for offensive operations in Iraq ...

it also calls for complete withdrawal as quickly as possible based solely of the safety of the troops ...

as i understand Murtha's plan, i think he's calling for withdrawal to begin immediately but thinks safety will require the process to take about 6 months to be completed ...

[radio4progressives]

30. One Important Item is to debunk the Lie that Viet Nam was an Honorable War

This lie is being promulgated by so called anti- "cut and runners" in this current Iraq war debacle, on the floor of the House, in the Senate and in the MSM.

Like Iraq, Viet Nam was an illegal war based on phony or trumped up bogyman charges (the commies are taking over the world and we have to stop them before they end up in our backyard) - we bombed and massacred peasants - we had no moral purpose, we had no exit strategy.

All of the speech here at home is exactly the same, speaking out is unpatriotic, cut and run is for cowards etc etc.

Again, Viet Nam war was a dishonorable war, it was an immoral war and it was an illegally waged war.

In our current debates, we have to go after and knock down the revisionists propaganda which is being promulgated today by the Bushevics leaders and rank and file.

[oxbow]

33. this needs to have more recommendations than anything!

our guys in congress need to get together and work out a plan for iraq that they can unite behind, or they will continue to be singled out and shot down by the GOP. Iraq is THE issue and they cannot afford to wait around any more on it.
IT'S TIME FOR A REAL PLAN

[AntiFascist]

35. I agree with the Democrat Intelligence Committee members....

who are exposed to more information than the rest of us. Whether or not we agree or disagree on minor points in the Murtha resolution, the issues he raises are all valid and call for a major change in course: namely withdrawal.

[bonzotex]

36. Withdraw...there is no downside

Gen Odom and Congressman Murtha are right on.

Democrats need to get behind a withdrawal strategy.

The "stay the course, we broke it, we own it" BS drove us over a cliff a long time ago.

Pulling out of Iraq can't and won't be done overnight. Bases in Kurdistan and near Basra would give us the leverage we want and the support any nominally American backed Iraqi government needs.

There is not a single logical argument for American troops staying as the de facto police and defense forces.

The factions in the US resisting withdrawal are the ones who are making profit off this war. Follow the money. It's a simple as that.