There are moments when I simply despise Democrats ..........

[OldLeftieLawyer]

Not all of them, but how they sometimes function as a group.

In this morning's Washington Post, on the front page, upper right-hand corner, is a very good article about Jack Murtha and his statement yesterday urging the withdrawal of American troops from Iraq.

I'm from PA originally, and I know the area this man represents, and, believe me, a hawkish Democrat from that place is nothing but an old-time Republican conservative, so what Murtha did and said yesterday is nothing short of earthshattering. He's an old pro who would never have made that statement if he didn't know his constituents back him up. That made his pronouncements even more outstanding.

I am so proud of him.

So, I'm reading this Post article, thinking that this is where it begins, this is where reality clashes with all the lies, where the big fight begins, where the good guys will prevail, and then I read a paragraph in the middle of the Murtha article, and it's so awful, I have to read it twice, because I'm sure I'm getting it wrong.

No, I got it right, and this paragraph, this thinking, the utter contempt I now have for these Democrats who lack spine, backbone, the simple courage of their convictions, the loyalty to back up their colleague who is opening a brilliant door for them, a colleague with the military and professional credentials most elected officials lack, a colleague who is not afraid to speak his truth and beliefs, make me want to quit the Democrats in every way. These guys just throw Murtha to the dogs, and stake out their safe little nothing stances.

I am completely disgusted with the lot of them.

Read it and weep:

"Murtha's Democratic colleagues reacted warily to his remarks, while Republicans pounced. Rep. Rahm Emanuel (Ill.), head of the House Democrats' campaign effort, said, 'Jack Murtha went out and spoke for Jack Murtha.' As for Iraq policy, Emanuel added: 'At the right time, we will have a position.'"

Imagine. "Jack Murtha went out and spoke for Jack Murtha."

Fuck you, Rahm Emanuel. Fuck you, you spineless twits who will "... at the right time ... have a position."

http://tinyurl.com/ahdkt

[acmejack]

1. Can't take a stand until we see which way the wind is blowing!

[still_one]

2. This is why we lose elections

Frankly, I am watching what the democrats do on the Alito nomination, before I support this party again

Talk is cheap, I want action

[Tesha]

32. Why Democrats lose...

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Critters2]

85. Okay...

so what are they doing? Apart from distancing themselves from a patriot like Murtha?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

96. Do you have that quote?

The whole Rahm Emanuel quote from yesterday, the one you alluded to?

I'm really curious about what he said in toto.

[Tesha]

104. Let's talk again after Alito is confirmed, ehh?

Then you can tell me what a great job the Democratic opposition
is doing in opposingthe Republicans at every turn.

Tesha

[leveymg]

3. It's spineless, but judging by the poll numbers, it's working. However,

judging by the numbers at the polls that count -- the last several elections -- this strategy is a failure.

It's now time for a new guard to take charge of the Party, and for Emanuel and the rest of the "Lie Down and Pretend You're Dead" strategists to go back to the corporate law firms they came from.

[txaslftist]

51. Time for a New Guard... Agreed!

[Tesha]

105. But it's NOT working.

Yes, Bush's numbers are dropping. But Democrats' numbers are
just hovering around "plain awful" too.

We don't just need to make people despise Bush, we need to
give them a cause to like *US* as well!

Tesha

[Dhalgren]

4. I agree with you completely. It doesn't matter what Murtha's

position was in the past; he's a Democrat, he's come around, and he is showing the courage to make a stand - he must be supported. It is like when Senator Byrd stood alone for two years railing against Bush's criminal war - he got little support from his party's elected officials. In my opinion this lack of a stance can be placed firmly at the feet of the DLC. The DLC support and promote Empire and they will do nothing that might impede its progress...

[TallahasseeGrannie]

5. That just astonishes me

after the Harry Reid "stunt" a few weeks back. I thought they were getting some gumption together.

[BJW]

64. They are, they are!

It's brilliant politics TG--see my post farther down the thread entitled "Maybe you don't understand politics?"

[No Exit]

6. I wonder, what, exactly, did Rahm Emmanuel find to disagree with?

Did he disagree that there are lots of young servicemembers suffering at Walter Reed?

Did he disagree that Dick Cheney got five draft deferments and never served?

Or does he disagree that we should bring the troops home?

I guess Mr. Emmanuel, that tender man who fed his newborn (presumably from a bottle) at his office, while a reporter interviewed him, WANTS our troops in Iraq.

Maybe Rahm LIKES hearing about our troops burning civilians' skin off...

[Pachamama]

40. Rahm's an ass....why they allow an asshat like that to open his mouth is

beyond me....

I hope that someone, Pelosi, Howard Dean, Reid et al show better judgement in their comments and before they decide to question someone like Murtha. They should welcome the dissenters...they should point to these brave dissenters and commend them.

I reccommend that not only all of us email the DNC and Pelosi about Rahm's comments, that we call too and I think we should all be thanking with phone calls Mr. Murtha.

[KittyWampus]

80. It isn't Rahm who is an ass. He's one of the best Democrats we have.

And it's pathetic that yet again, DU'ers take the mediawhores bait.

Do you even KNOW what Rahm said besides the PARTIAL QUOTES TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT provided?

NO, you don't have a clue. Once again DU'ers react unthinkingly, ready to take the Mediawhore bait.

[RazzleDazzle]

87. In that case, we need to either get a whole better class of Democratx

or give the hell up entirely.

Rahm has a lot going for him. What is a millstone around his neck is his reliance on DLC thinking, talking points, consultants, and so on. It'll be the end of him unless he wises up and fast.

I personally prefer politicians who have their own thoughts, values and central inner core and rely on that for their personal guidance system instead of some think tank or consultants or pollsters. YMMV.

[Pachamama]

95. If Rahm is one of our "best dems", then we are in deep shit...

Sorry Crying Shame, got to disagree with you here...I've never been impressed by Rahm and while I'll agree there are plenty of media whores, Rahm should think before opening his mouth.

I don't have a clue?? :wtf: I'm "reacting unthinkingly" ready to take mediawhore bait?

Sorry, but aside from your unnecessary personal attack, you clearly don't much about me...I'm a retired Hi-tech exec who lives in Ross, CA, raises a lot of money for the Dems, have met Rahm on several occasions and I'll repeat, I think he's an asshat and completely agree w/ OldLeftieLawyer who is very much a Dem and not a Freeper on the DU. Dean, Pelosi, Tauscher, Woolsey and many others in the Dem party are a different story and I'll back them anytime...but even if they did something foolish, I'd call it out.

You can disagree with me, but don't attack me personally and know that I do a lot for Dems, but when someone like Rahm does assine things, I'm not going to stand lockstep like Repukes do behind someone.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

97. Maybe you have it?

Cryingshame took off on me, too, berating me for not paying attention to the whole of Rahm Emmanuel's quote. I can't find anything anywhere, so maybe you know about this quote?

There comes a point when people just have to take a position and hold it. Jack Murtha did that yesterday, and I hope it's the Democrats' tipping point, but, given the immediate, selfserving reactions, I'm not optimistic.

In the meantime, I'm really curious about the entirety of Rahm's quote. I hope cryingshame can enlighten both of us.

[Pachamama]

99. No idea what "other things" Rahm could have said that show Rahm was taken

out of context...I don't think the statement "Jack Murtha went out and spoke for Jack Murtha" was necessary in any context...Now, maybe Rahm's full quote and further statement that continued saying "...he is his own man and a patriotic American who holds more allegiance to his country and the military than to the Republican Party", sure then I would agree that his statement was taken out of context. But Cryingshame attacks me (and apparentely you too in this thread) as being wrong and we both are true blue progressives on the DU who love our country and want the Dems to succeed.

I read the Washington Post online daily...I got the same impression from the story you did and that was before reading your post, which is why I responded. I'm also from Chevy Chase, MD, know the Post well and the games of Washington Politics and the media and I thought the story was quite glowing of Murtha and if this story qoutes and exposes someone like Rahm for making an assinine statement, then so be it. If they took him out of context, then shame on the Post. But Cryingshame has yet to provide us with the text of the full quote. Being that Rahm isn't someone I'm impressed with, I'll wait to see the quote.

Waiting....

[OldLeftieLawyer]

100. Did you see Dana Milbank on the same subject?

I'm sure you did, but check it out in case you overlooked it.

Waiting with you, neighbor (Old Town Alexandria here)................

[Pachamama]

102. I did see it and Dana Milbank as a "journalist" is always on my "watch"

carefully list....Ever since the article Milbank wrote on the day after the Conyers' DSM meeting this summer that "mocked" it, I watch Milbank closely. But much to his credit, his articles of late have been mea culpa's and he wrote very positively about the significance of Murtha's action.

Ah, Old Town Alexandria...know it well! :hi:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

103. That's smart, watching him

I do the same, since he's a Yalie, Skull and Bones. A bit too inbred, for my taste.

[sendero]

7. I hear you...

... we need a lot more Reids, Murthas, Boxers etc. and a whole lot fewer of these simpering losers who cannot take a position that is the least bit controversial, no matter how RIGHT it is.

Certain high-profile Dems fit squarely within the bunch we need fewer of.

[Totally Committed]

8. Mr. Emmanuel is DLC...

and the DLC position seems to be hawkish on this war... sort of as a "sign" that they are not weak on National Security. What they are is WRONG. Their position mirrors the Republicans' (as usual) rather tha disagrees with it. In this case, as in all cases, two WRONGs do not make a RIGHT.

The DLC has its' collective head so far up its own ass, it can't see that agreeing with and colluding with the Republcians is just WRONG.

TC

[leveymg]

10. It's like Scoop Jackson who supported Nixon on Vietnam to the bitter end

These guys have a career path that will take them in a decade or two into the Mellon-Scaif funded Right-wing think tank world, just like the neocons who proceeded them.

The DLC are the intellectual architects of the wars of 2015-2020.

[Al-CIAda]

16. "Mr. Emmanuel is DLC..." -Oh, no need to say any more. -n/t

[radio4progressives]

113. Bingo! The DLC is the ENEMY of this Party - They are the Neo Cons in

in Sheeps Clothing!

The Neo Libs (DLC) KNEW damn well that this war in Iraq was based on a pack of LIES. And they played along, cause it would be good for the resume so that when they got back into power they can have more wars too - and a vote for Iraq was intended as a slam dunk guarantee for from the "other side of the isle" support (quid pro quo) for the wars they will want to engage in down the future.

Don't you guys get it yet?

(i'm talking to DU Clintonians and Kerry sycophants)

These people have war plans of their own stuffed in drawers gathering dust that they want to pull out when it's their time.

We can't allow these DLC Dinos to pretend to represent this party, or this party is going down by 2008.

[hippiechick]

9. "At the right time, we'll have a position" ????

:puke: Ok, now I have to agree with people who claim the Dems (as an offical party) are weenies.

[Arugula Latte]

42. Yeah, that statement flew out of the paper at me this morning.

It's like someone wrote a parody of a weak-kneed jellyfish Democrat, but it was frickin' REAL. :grr:

[feistydem]

120. Dean said those very words on last Sunday's Meet The Press.

I was flabberghasted. He said, "We don't need to take a position right now."

Really? Is this the DLC (now DNC) talking point of the moment?

As long as the Democratic leadership sits on their hands, the only ones 'leading' are the shameful rightwing Repulicans.

I agree withthe OldLiberalLawyer and the others here who would like the Democrats to grow a spine and stop waiting to see what positions are playing well in the press. The corporate media DOES NOT accurately reflect the attitudes of the nation.

[oc2002]

11. there are 2 democratic parties, The DLC strawman and the DU Democrats.

The DLC strawman dems are spineless, gutless jelyfish that are just there for the Repbublicans to use as doormat and ridicule.

We have all despised the DLC democrats like Lieberman, Emanuel, Hillary...

[graywarrior]

12. Gotcha ya. Feel the same way.

[Robert Cooper]

13. Don't get mad, get even!

It is a curious thing watching American liberals deal with defeat: you're either bogged down with siege mentality or you're ready to quit.

When Brian Mulroney and his Tories won in the '80's, it was one of the largest RW landslides in Canadian history. The Liberals were down to a handful, politely referred to as the "Rat-Pack". We also went through two terms of this crap and, like you, we found their second term ripe with scandal and arrogance.

The third election, we wiped them out so bad we had to re-define parliament's definition for "political party" to continue granting the Tories "party status", there were so few of them elected.

The Tories split into two parties, and it wasn't until 2003-2004 that they re-united. The original "Progressive Conservatives", the party of Sir John A McDonald, our first prime minister, is extinct.

Can we hold back the conservatives? A recent poll places LW support at 55% to 26% for the RW. If not for the fact the Left is divided between two parties, it would be a cakewalk.

You don't have that problem.

Your RW is in disarray. Majority House Leader indicted. Majority Senate Leader under investigation. VP Chief of Staff indicted. WH staff under investigation.

You got Murtha's support, which is good. That's one more than you had the day before. You going to quit because everyone didn't immediately jump up and sing "Kumbayah" and light their candles? Fine gratitude shown to Murtha. Don't you think he needs you to support his position? Will quitting do it? Instead of having more supporters in the ranks of democrats, he'd have less.

How long was Churchill in the "Wilderness", and how would things have been different if he'd quit because no one was listening?

Who do you expect to fight your battles if you won't?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

17. Beautiful. Thank you.

I'll support Jack Murtha, believe me, with fat checks and lots of noise. But, the Democrats I support will have to be hand-picked from now on, and that means I'll have to work harder at doing my homework.

The Party, as it stands right now, though, really is in such sad disarray, and so lacking any kind of center, I cannot, and will not, in good conscience, contribute to it.

Individuals, yes. The Party, no. Perhaps things need to get even worse here before anything resembling intelligent and courageous life can be found with the ranks of the Democrats.

Thanks for a great response.

[Robert Cooper]

28. Greatness doesn't show up when times are good

It's times like this when greatness shows. Anyone can look good when things are good all over. It takes real chaos and troubles to bring forth the best and the brightest.

It's also the time when you see how poorly equipped some are, just look at Brownie ;-)

You're in a process of separating chaff from wheat. Don't give up on finding the wheat just because you get a mitt-ful of chaff.

And you're welcome. Remember, it isn't just you or America affected by this process. The peace and prosperity of the world depend upon American democrats. You -have- to fight for us because we can't fight for ourselves.

We believe in you.

(edit: typo)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

29. For what it's worth,

your thoughtful and insightful words have changed me. Imagine. You pointed out something that should have been obvious, but was lost to me in the white heat of my rage, and you made sense, and that changed me.

You also brought tears to my eyes.

If I have anything to say about it, my friend, we'll not let you down.

Thank you again.

And, for you, The Pussycat!

[Robert Cooper]

58. Old Left-Lib farts will understand ;-)

We've all been through it (or will go through it one dark and lonely night). Perhaps one day we ought to have a thread on all the -really- depressing things we've come up with over the years. That'll cheer us up ;-)

The way I see it, the RW freaked when Nixon resigned. Since then I've watched as they slowly mounted a counter-attack, so that now almost no one seems to remember the flower children, peaceniks, or the Age of Aquarius. We were a generation that was going to change the world. Does the world look changed? Was it all a lot of hype to justify dodging the draft, or was there truth in the rhetoric?

Despite it all, I have a son, born in 2002. Not only do I believe in the future, I'm investing in it. I don't fight for an old fossil like me, I'm content sitting in the middle of my forest till the moss grows over me. I fight for my son, and all those who can't fight for themselves.

There's a new generation learning the same lessons about the RW that we learned in our time. Old fossils have a wealth of experience and hopefully wisdom to share.

And when you're really having trouble with motivation, do what I do: I recall Johnny Appleseed. As I recall the story, he walked through the country-side, casting apple seeds everywhere. Is there anything in the story about walking back and picking apples off the trees he started? I don't believe so.

It's enough for us to scatter the seeds, confident that in good soil they'll grow strong and true.

And if that doesn't work, drop me a note.

[RazzleDazzle]

82. A few comments

The Party, as it stands right now, though, really is in such sad disarray, and so lacking any kind of center, I cannot, and will not, in good conscience, contribute to it.

Individuals, yes. The Party, no. Perhaps things need to get even worse here before anything resembling intelligent and courageous life can be found with the ranks of the Democrats.

IMO, it is precisely the Party -- the DNC -- which is your best avenue for making the changes you desire.

Howard Dean is weaning the Party off corporate money, much to the chagrin of the D.C. establishment, and working very hard to build the party from the ground up. This was not so in the past. Under a McAuliffe DNC, I'd have agreed with you 1000%. But remember that Dean was elected against all the best wishes and scheming and postruing and floating candidates for the Chair position that the establishment Dems could muster. Dean was "the people's choice," and continues to do the work of building the Party so the Party can be for the people and not the powerful.

Now, please understand the DNC doesn't include the Democratic Congressional Committee and the Democratic Senate Committee, which are run by the powerful whose vested interests are in primarily keeping power structures in place, which is why they got Sherrod Brown to run against Paul Hackett even after he said he wasn't going to, etc.

Another place you might consider contributing is to Dean's old organization, Democracy for America, which is busy encouraging, training and helping fund honest-to-God regular people to run for office from the smallest offices right on up (our own farm team).

[Talismom]

91. That's exactly how I feel OldLeftie! I'm actively supporting ($)

individuals, but the party has me so frustrated sometimes that I could scream! They don't act like a party in any noticable way, except that they take turns voting with the repukes so none of them has to take all the criticism. I'm really fed up!

[satya]

48. Your response deserves to be in its own thread, and on the DU home page.

Your eloquent posts in this thread are so inspiring -- thank you!

[Robert Cooper]

73. Thank you

Dancing Bear has started a thread in GD. As for the Home page, I've no idea how I do that, so I'll leave it to whomever is sufficiently inspired.

Thank you.

[DancingBear]

55. Would you mind if I placed this on GD as its own separate thread?

I would credit it to you, of course, but like others have said it truly deserves its own thread.

How do you eat an elephant? - one bite at a time.

I need to remember that, so if you'll excuse me I have this letter to a Pennsylvania Congressperson that I need to write.

Thanks.

[Robert Cooper]

59. Be my guest, and you're welcome nt

[DancingBear]

14. The next time someone on DU waxes eloquent about the DLC

have them watch the video of Murtha, with tears in his eyes, talking about what is being done to this country and speaking the truth.

Then watch Rahm Emanuel stick his DLC finger in the air, wave it around, and decide he'll say something about something sometime, as long as it doesn't really make anybody too mad.

You tell me who you want in Congress.

Hillary, Biden, Warner, Emanuel - not for this Democrat, thank you.

[Jon8503]

15. I am with U Leftie. That is why I am joining The Nation in their not

supporting any democratic candidate who voted for the war. But back to what you were talking about. Here was a war hero, the repukes could not call him a "liberal". He has always been a big military supporter. A man who has always cared about his country. A man who has so much military experience and knows what is going on.

He now stands up alone and says hey, this is not working. There is no end. This administration basically is not capable of running this war. No more lost lives over this debacle. We need to get out now.
You are right the Democrats had the door opened for them to join this brave senator, do the right thing and support him but again they faltered. I am totally disgusted with the Bidens, Hillary & the others & of course the DLC.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

18. Hey -

Tell me more, please, about what The Nation is up to.

I don't know anything about this, but it sounds like I should.

Thanks.

[DancingBear]

20. 11/28 edition - Editorials

"We will not support any candidate for national office who does not make a speedy end to the war in Iraq a major issue of his or her campaign."

Much more in the editorial, of course, but their stance is as above.

Edit: The quote is also on the front cover of the 11/28 edition.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

30. OK, got it.

Thanks.

This is the start of a beautiful friendship, I think.

Thanks again. They're exactly right, of course.

[DancingBear]

37. Aww, gee whiz,,,,

Oh, I guess you meant The Nation.

Damn.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

44. Remember that Barry Goldwater line?

"in Your Heart, You Know He's Right."

Scampish Democrats added, "Yeah, far right."

In my heart, I know you're ..... you know .......... that good thing.

;)

[DancingBear]

52. Now I feel better

In '64, I actually had an "AuH2O" sticker on my school notebook.

Thankfully surgery helped correct the problem.

;)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

57. Really?

Well, then, I've just cursed you for all eternity.

'kay?

OK, I was kidding.

I shook hands with Henry Cabot Lodge when he was the Veep Candidate. I was only a child and didn't know any better.

Let us go and cleanse ourselves...........

[DancingBear]

63. "To the sinks!"

-Voltaire-


Frank Voltaire, my plumber.

[Jon8503]

21. Leftie, here is an excerpt & link. The Nation has taken a stand not

to support any candidate for national office who does not support making an end of the war a major issue of their campaign. I support them.

The Nation therefore takes the following stand: We will not support any candidate for national office who does not make a speedy end to the war in Iraq a major issue of his or her campaign.

We urge all voters to join us in adopting this position.

Many worry that the aftermath of withdrawal will be ugly, but we can now see that the consequences of staying will be uglier still. Fear of facing the consequences of Bush's disaster should not be permitted to excuse the creation of a worse disaster by continuing the occupation.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051128/editors

[OldLeftieLawyer]

31. Thanks....

This is where I belong. I missed this, somehow.

Subscription time, I see.

Thank you so much for this.

[femrap]

43. I became disgusted with the Dems as a group when

the neocons said John Roberts was to be the next Supreme Court Justice and the dems said...'OK.'

I feel as if I have to fight both the pugs and the DLC. I feel betrayed by the dems...

I called the 22 Dems who voted for Johnny Bob Taliban....and told the Aide who answered that: "If Senator...... is so afraid of this administration, just wait until they have to face A REAL DEMOCRAT IN THEIR NEXT PRIMARY."

I really want to organize and work on this. All of these DLC spineless, corporate paid sell-outs should be faced by a person who CARES ABOUT OUR COUNTRY...who isn't bought and paid for by Lobbyists on K Street. I want to vote for someone who speaks the Truth and is Courageous.

I want to fight NOW....!

Good for Murtha!

[LincolnMcGrath]

24. You should get a sub to The Nation OLL.

I got one for myself awhile back and have recently given subs to 3 family members as well.

:hi:

[Jon8503]

27. I have, actually joined the Nation Associates. I do need to give

a subscription gift out though. I agree with them on most issues.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

33. You're right

And now I go, hot little credit card number in hand, to subscribe.

Thank you for helping me.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

36. Thanks, Lincoln

I'm signed up for a year and I thank you for this suggestion.

Sometimes, I miss the most obvious things.

Like, you know, where are those panties I ...........?

Here's to you, Lincoln:

[LincolnMcGrath]

19. How beaten down does * have to be before these DLCers stand with

the party?

Then again maybe they are.

[happyslug]

22. John Murtha Web Site with Speech

The Speech:
http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/pa12_murtha/pr051117iraq.html

John Murtha's Web Site:
http://www.house.gov/murtha/

[populistdriven]

23. Every Talk Show Host is Cracking on us "Can't Take a Stand Dems"

Even Jon Stewart

[underpants]

25. Not an excuse BUT.....

The Dems seem to be trying to out muscle each other to the microphone with THEIR OWN plan of what to do.

They should have supported Murtha (hell just for his record of service alone) through the weekend and then on Monday come out with plans on HOW/WHEN to do WHAT Murtha talked about yesterday.

Emmanuel should be fed his tie for doing that.





The bullshit RW criticism has been that the Dems have no plan now it will be that they have too many plans...can't focus....in diarray-all that BS all it really means is that everyone gets a voice not just the command from on the mountaintop like the Repubs. Good PR for them sure but clearly not representative of real life (not that they care).

[welshTerrier2]

26. Howard Dean: "Right now it's not our job to give out specifics."

it appears that our good Dr. Dean and Rep. Emanuel prefer to play political games while one of America's worst foreign policy disasters of all time rages on ... their statements about Democrats not having a position until next year, you know, the one with midterm elections, is disgraceful ...

source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9967566/

MR. RUSSERT: But those are words that will appeal to people. But when you go behind them, for example, what is the Democratic position on Iraq? Should we withdraw troops now? What do the Democrats stand for?

DR. DEAN: Tim, first of all, we don't control the House, the Senate or the White House. We have plenty of time to show Americans what our agenda is and we will long before the '06 elections.

MR. RUSSERT: But there's no Democratic plan on Social Security. There's no Democratic plan on the deficit problem. There's no specifics. They say, "Well, we want a strong Social Security. We want to reduce the deficit. We want health care for everyone," but there's no plan how to pay for it.

DR. DEAN: Right now it's not our job to give out specifics.

[DeepModem Mom]

34. Kicked and recommended. nt

[Pithy Cherub]

35. This is a time to separate the wheat from the chaff for Democrats.

The elected band of "stay the course DLC Democrats" are entitled to their blazing yellow stripe centrist opinions. But they do not represent mainstream America or their constituents. When the failure of a policy is so readily apparent to all Citizens of the World and pols cling to George & Babs Bushs' apron strings in magical thinking, it says the pols were motivated by ego, personal ambition and professional gain. It is also morally corrupt and indefensible.

Those democrats who side with the president or twitter nervously when asked a direct question about this Iraq Debacle are sucking the democracy blood right out of American and their wallets. Enabling those Democrats is the height of hypocrisy and they are not deserving of time, money or votes. Choose wisely where support goes and ensure you educate others as to why your position is so important. Those Dems that continue to support this Iraq War are our shame and embarrassment.

Like a phoenix, we need to rise and show that their are Democrats who can admit error and failure, apologize, forgive and stand proudly for the Common Good. We also need to show there are wise and strong Democrats who are bloodied but unbowed because they stood on the best of Principle from the beginning and through the hard times. These are the people to be proud of as a Democrat.

OldLeftieLawyer we are most united in spirit on this. :toast:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

49. Amen, my friend

You have earned The Dreaded Pussycat Award:

[sandnsea]

38. That is Hillary's position

To be clear. It was reported the other day that Democrats should just keep hammering at Bush because any plan Democrats put out will be labeled "cut and run" and change the focus of the debate.

Kerry and Murtha have both put out plans to get out of Iraq and that's exactly what's happening. And because the two plans aren't exactly identical, they're dividing the party, AGAIN. We're talking about Democrats instead of Bush's failed Iraq policy.

[gulfcoastliberal]

39. Dems just refuse to take advantage

One lame excuse after another why they don't capitalize. I'm with you OLL. Fuck these Neville Chamberlains!!!!

[tgnyc]

41. "...the right time": that's some spineless bullshit right there. They

are obviously waiting for the elections to take place, then they can introduce their new product, a la Andy Card, after the holidays.

[robbedvoter]

45. Not just Rahm. Check out St Kerry:

...
BLITZER: John Murtha, who's very involved in the Armed Services Committee, ... says there should be an immediate withdrawal over the next six months of all U.S. troops from Iraq. Good idea?
KERRY: I respectfully disagree with John Murtha. And I laid out a plan which is, I think, a good plan, a solid plan -- that builds consistently on everything I said throughout the campaign last year -- of what you need to do to be successful. And I believe my plan supports the troops in the right way.
...
Kerry: I'd have us in a 'different place'
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/17/cnna.kerry/

[BobBoudelangFan69]

46. M$M Is Telling You What RW Is Saying The Dems Are Doing ...

and you believe them? Duh.

Why are you believing anything the M$M says about Dem support?


Bush Lied. People Died. Media Cheered.

[BJW]

66. I Know--the Gullibility

and repetition of the RW anti-dem TPs to get Dems to not support other Dems if they don't march in
It's pretty apparent that there is a general lack of understanding of the nature of politics, the art of persuasion, and of political strategy on the part of many of the poster on this thread.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

72. You lack the gift of context

Clearly, you're not able to take in what's gone on in the political situation in this country since 1968. You have to have that frame of reference before you can make any kind of intelligent observation.

You do demonstrate a certain enthusiasm, and you are to be commended for that, but you do need to take it the entire history so that you can take some lessons from what is going on today.

[KittyWampus]

83. Clearly You Lack The Ability To Withstand Mediawhore/GOP Spin

they are purposely TRYING to make Dems seem divided.

Again,

What was the CONTEXT of Rahm's statement?
What was his FULL quote?

The fact is there are SEVERAL Democratic plans for withdrawl. And that's good when it comes down to bargaining power with Republicans.

Are you suggesting Rahm should just shut up and get behind Murtha's plan? What about Kerry's plan? Maybe he has his own plan.

Maybe the butchered, partial and out of context quotes you posted are referring to Rahm's statements on Murtha's actual PLAN.

Maybe Rahm was simply stating that Murtha's plan was Murtha's plan and Murtha's plan might not be held by every Democrat WHICH IS THE FACT OF THE MATTER.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

88. The context was there

The full quote was there.

Democrats were strangely terse on the matter of Jack Murtha's statement.

You sure do embrace lots of "maybe" in your thinking. I'm more accustomed to dealing with reality.

You know, the fine art of what is.

[robbedvoter]

47. Clark seems to have a mind of his own though

Clark jumped in and said, "I'll tell you who's with John Murtha and it's the American public... The real issue is this: We're in Iraq now. We've got to put the right policies in place... To succeed in Iraq, you've got to deal with Iraq's neighbors - Syria and Iran."
http://www.newshounds.us/2005/11/18/sean_hannity_tries_to_blame_democrats_for_iraq_war_problems.php#more
see this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2259790

[OldLeftieLawyer]

50. My dream team

A Clark and Murtha ticket in '08.

I know, I know, but an OldLeftie can dream, can't she?

[wiley]

122. That really would be a great ticket

Good luck trying to get Democrats to accept it. They worship campaign consultants and Rove wannabees at the DLC. Throw the money changers out!

[Bunny]

53. I grew up in Johnstown, OLL, and you're right.

Those are some very conservative Dems, and for Murtha to say what he said is huge. Any Dem that won't back him, loudly, is a pathetic coward.

[Kingofalldems]

89. Johnstown--You are right, working class dems there.

Great town. My in-laws lived in Richland. Loved to visit there.

[wryter2000]

54. From Kerry

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5392265

For me, it's hard to lump them all into Democrats. There's a big difference even between the two Democratic senators from CA. And don't forget the CBC, who've been working tirelessly with little thanks and even less attention.

I, also, despise the DLC "new Democrats," but I'm not going to blame "Democrats."

[OldLeftieLawyer]

56. Good for Kerry!

I hope others join him - BUT - I would like him to address the substance of what Jack Murtha said, not just get involved in defending him against the rabid rightwing fuckers.

If only Kerry would join Murtha in demanding our troops be brought home right now. That's a consummation devoutly to be wished - at least by me.

[second edition]

60. First, I personally admire what Murtha did, however that doesn't

mean that others share mine or your point of view. Maybe, other Dems are not on the same page as Murtha. Last I looked its a free country and people are allowed to have opposing points of view.

[JNelson6563]

61. These "Dems" do this to Dean all the time

Anybody else with me on the idea that the party is ready for a purge? All those lacking a spine, leave on your own or we will help you.

Julie--who always likes to offer choices :-)

[BJW]

69. You Don't Seem to Get it--It's Politics, That's All

That this is beautiful, pure political art, theater and strategy.

Dean is a "point person" who puts out "radical" ideas. This paves the way and re-frames national debates so that those in "unsafe" seats can gain needed cover and those that are in safer seats can forge ahead with "moderate" proposals.

Remember, the dems are NOT in power right now, and other than impeaching a bunch of repugs en masse(highly unlikely--but we can still hope), they won't be in power until possibly 2006--so Dean and others are doing what they can to address national issues and re-frame debates while keeping an eye on the upcoming elections.

Dean would NOT have been elected chairman if they didn't want him to be Dean and do what he's been doing and say what he's been saying.

He's the chairman precisely because of his "radical" outspokeness.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

71. No, that's not what Dean does

He's been steadfastly middle-of-the-road (in my opinion) while he's been a terrible failure at raising $$$ for the party.

I like Howard Dean, and I know his goals are admirable, but I don't think he has what it takes for the job he's in right now.

He's the chairman because of frustration with Kerry's loss, that's all. Sort of a way to give the finger to the Republicans, and it's just not working for us.

[JNelson6563]

118. Actually he's raised more money

than last "off years". He's doing a great job, going around the country helping to build state and county parties instead of lunching with fat-cats.

That's how we'll do the purge, from the ground up. :toast:

Julie

[OldLeftieLawyer]

119. This is what I was referring to

vis a vis Dean and fundraising.

http://tinyurl.com/8hblw

Cheers, kid ...............

[feistydem]

121. I agree. My old leftie lawyer spouse (formerly from VT) tangled with Dean

(then Governor)on political issues for which Dean took conservative and/or pro-business positions. He is not the 'liberal' the media painted him to be during the last prez campaign.

I am unimpressed with Dean's communication skills, although I am glad he is not afraid to throw a punch now and then --as he did at Mehlman on MTP.

Too bad he also said that the DNC didn't need to make known it's plans until after the first of the year. To me, that just means that they simply don't have a plan and need more time to test the popular opinion waters in order to form one.

[PassingFair]

92. You know I've got your back...

Purge away! To the barricades!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

98. Lean on me

Spines are vital, and it's time we found others with backbones.

Purge away - I'm wearing my wetsuit.

Cheers, Julie!

[BJW]

62. Maybe You Don't Understand Politics?

A typical strategy (for any party) is to test the winds, and when the polls show significant shifts, then a few party reps get WAY out in front, really pushing the envelope with far-reaching, "radical" proposals.

But, the willingness of party members to be that person "on point" often depends upon their relative security in their district.

From what you described, Murtha wouldn't have said what he said if he didn't feel like his constitutents were behind him, and that he's more or less a moderate republican in many ways anyway. Also, we know that Murtha's position on this issue carries gravitas. So--looking at this from a political perspective, Murtha is the perfect "safe" party rep who can be out "on point" and pushing the envelope on this issue.

The effectiveness of utilizing this time-honored political strategy is that it changes the frame of the debate. Now, instead of debating wehther or not it's even okay to pull out, at any time, short of full institution of democracy in Iraq or full military defeat of the civil resistance--the debate has changed to can we, and should we, do this in six months?

Now, I'd like an immediate, complete and total withdrawal myself, coupled with formal apologies, reparations paid, and complete financing by my government of reconstruction of Iraq infrastructure by non-Americans. And I'd also like to have the Prez and VP impeached and brought to trial on War Crimes.

But that probably ain't gonna happen any time soon, if ever.

We also aren't realistically going to be able to muster the political willpower to get out of Iraq in six months or less.

BUT, the beauty of the strategy by Dems here is that people who've been advocating for a one to two-year withdrawal timeline are now being heard and seen as much more reasonable and moderate. And that removing our soliders ASAP is now being discussed as realistic, doable and preferred. In addition, those dems that aren't in "safe" seats (like Murtha is) get political cover by advocating for something other than Murtha's "radical" position.

It's not about spineless dems, at all. It's a brilliant, time-honored political strategy at its finest.

[ThePopulist]

74. This president seems to have lost sight of the fact that....

he works for the American people, not for the Iraqi people. What I want to know is why is he building up their infrastructure when we have many dilapidated areas in the United States that need MAJOR infrastructure work. I mean I've heard that there are certain reservoirs that have entryways that were made during the Civil War!! Now they're corroding and putting lots of iron into the drinking water. I mean, this man is so misguided and confused about his priorities that the only way I can explain this freak fluke of nature is that it is punishment from God. Seriously, I actually believe that!! lol

[OldLeftieLawyer]

75. You have really gone out on a limb here,

and the wind is blowing hard.

Check out Jack Murtha. Stalking-horse for anyone or anything, no, that's not his style.

A "strategy" that leaves the strategists looking like weasel weenies is hardly a good one, you must admit.

It's about spineless Democrats. Cheers, though, for your attempt to spin gold out of dross.

[Tesha]

106. Ahh! More of the "Strategery" that worked so well for us in '00, '02, ...

> It's not about spineless dems, at all. It's a brilliant,
> time-honored political strategy at its finest.

Ahh! More of the "Strategery" that worked so well for us in '00,
'02, and '04!

You know, maybe *JUST ONCE* we ought to put strategy aside and simply
stand up for what's right. *AND WHEN ONE DEMOCRAT IS DOING IT, THE
REST SHOULD QUIT STABBING HIM IN THE BACK IN AN ATTEMPT TO APPEAR
"MODERATE"!!!*

Tesha

[OldLeftieLawyer]

108. Ahhhhhhhhhh

You're "getting it" makes all of this quite worthwhile.

Thanks.

[SeanQ]

65. Here here!!

I think the truly useless Dem's, like Rahm Emanuel, who do us more harm than good, both as a party and nation, are the minority. By a rough estimate I don't think there are more of them than the fighters like Boxer and Conyers. What makes us look so bad is they are still garnering most of the leadership rolls and are so regularly quoted in the MSM, much to the detriment of worthwhile efforts like Murtha's. It really saddens and pisses me off too Leftie!

That day, Jack Murtha spoke for me! More importantly, he spoke for the majority of the Americans and the vast majority of Democrats.

It's time to take Rahm Emanuel and the other like minded doormats in the party (can anyone say DLC?) to task. And the best way to do that is to get them out of office. First, if you want to back candidates who have spine, who will fight for their beliefs and for core Democratic values, Invest in Democracy, and when you do, tell them that your support is contingent on them finding candidates that will stand up and be counted, and contingent on the DNC backing up and supporting people like Rep. Murtha when they take such a stand. Dean seems to be making progress, and we know he wont back down. I've decided to give him and the DNC the benefit of the doubt, at least through 2006, and see if we can work some magic on the party.

Second, if you live in a district or state where one of these GOP apologist twits like Emanuel or Lieberman are from, it's time to get to work!!! Find out who is up for re-election in 2006, and find or support a worthwhile challenger! Since they are funded by big business and wealthy contributors, the only way we have to shut them up, is to get them out of office!!!

What say you? Should we pick say, 10, of the most spineless, DINO, attack your own party Dem's currently in office and target them for replacement?

[ThePopulist]

67. It's common knowledge that many in the Republican party despise this.....

administration. Pat Buchanan and Charley Reese are 2 good examples. They despise the fact that we are imposing our system of government onto another people without their permission. THAT'S AUTHORITARIAN. As Jefferson noted so many countless times, it is the responsibility of the individual people to provide their own freedom. We cannot nation-build. We've tried that scores of times over the last 15 years and it's been a complete failure each time. When all is said and done this war will have cost us upwards of 5 to 10% of GDP.

We should also be keen to clarifications between ordinary conservatives and neoconservatives. Ordinary cons are just misguided people while neocons are radical nuts. Even James Baker noted that he thought of them as radicals and called them "the crazies."

[OldLeftieLawyer]

68. Hello, The

Grand post, and welcome to DU!!!

[BJW]

70. Excellent Points!

[PATRICK]

76. And who do you think the WP will quote?

it would have to be an instant critic, one of the "divided Dems". The GOP lately have become mouth victims as well so there is not so much depth to your concern. The party is not monolithically united on anything and is frequently embarrassed by the out of step disgruntled DLC wonderboys who think policy before politics and politics before policy at the wrong times pretty much like they have everything else effectively turned upside down.

Kerry's speech will be the real response and the most representative of the party. The above incident merely highlights the idiocy of the duped or dishonest "centrists".

One would expect the WP and NYT to play down Murtha somehow. It unsettles their deep ties to establishment thinking and their stories are subtly warped accordingly.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

86. But the post did NOT play down Murtha

Read my post again. The article was, where Murtha and his actions were concerned, glowing.

Read the article. The cowardice of the Democrats will jump out at you, it's so dissonant with the rest of the article.

[PATRICK]

107. Then that ultimately will isolate

the DLC handicap as it should be. I think there are several instances where people who never get it without a hammer on the head, like Lieberman, have been identified and shamed by anti-labor, anti-working people votes.

[KittyWampus]

77. #1. What Else Did Rahm Say? What Were His FULL Statements?

#2. The Democrats are acting together, though you apparently aren't savvy enough to grasp that.

My disgust is with DU'ers who stupidly and repeatedly take crap from the Media and swallow their spin and distortions whole.

THE MEDIAWHORES HAVE EVERY INTENTION TO TRY AND MAKE DEMOCRATS LOOK DIVIDED.

[BJW]

79. Thank You!!!!!

[LincolnMcGrath]

84. To be fair, the Dems did act in unison on the pension bill yesterday!

15 senators also wavered on the tax bill as well. I would post there names, lest I be referred to as a DLC basher. :eyes:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

90. Let's have the whole quote, then

You clearly have some access to a much larger statement he made when asked about Murtha's statement yesterday.

I'd like very much to read it.

Thank you.

[xxqqqzme]

81. which is why everytime

I get a 'we need some money' from DCCC-DLCer rahm emanuel..I write a check to my local candidate cuz I know the money is going out of CA 'n it ain't coming back in any form of support.

[WinkyDink]

93. Rahm is one of the "speak softly and carry a limp noodle" Dems.

Trying to be the calm voice of "reason" when loud righteous indignation is called for.

(Edited out excessive language!)
P.S. If there is no DU rule about posting complete articles/transcripts, then I suppose we will be left with replying to incomplete ones.)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

94. It's a copyright violation

to post complete articles.

But, there's a link to the Washington Post article in the original post. Do read the article - it's a killer - and very pro-Murtha.

As was Dana Milbank's piece about him and the Democrats in the same section of the paper.

[AuntPatsy]

101. I hear you, there are moments when I simply despise those that

make such a general statement of "despising Democrats" for all the world to see without finding a better way to show one's disapproval with "Certain individual Democrats" by headlining a certain thread with a more democratic way of getting one's point across....


For someone who claims to be a lawyer, those of who know the power of using short sentences which most individuals will read instead of longer explanations of why one feels the way that they do...

Headlining with such a phrase is not only disruptive but it is also one of the reasons many appear to divided...

you of all people should realize the laziness of many who wish to read no further and believe headlines enough to parrot to another...

Threads like these do NOT help those that truly wish for change to occur in today's politics...

Can you attempt to be a bit more specific in your thread titles next time that do not UNDERMINE the democratic party, that which you claim to stand behind just by being a member of this particular board, one would assume that such is fact..

Though I do agree with you that more should stand together, I am not comfortable with how you seem to use your attacks from your frustration of "Certain Individual Democrats"

[Exiled in America]

110. You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists?

What I think is a travesty is blameing those vocal about the colossal faliure of the Democratic Party to protect this country and its people from a corrupt, fascist party rather than blaming those responsible for the travesty in the first place.

I choose not to say "certain individual democrats" because that would be a lie. It is not "certain individual democrats."

It is the majority of the Democrats in the House and Senate. "Certain individual democrats" are the MINORITY who have stood by principles and convictions of strong opposition to tyranny, and they have been lambasted and assaulted by THEIR OWN PARTY at every turn.

I would ask you to refrain from personal attacks masked in the form of criticims of my writing ability, and stick to the issue at hand if you choose to respond to my points.

[Robert Cooper]

111. "...-my- writing ability...-my- points"?

Curious. AuntPatsy was talking about OldLeftie, not -your- writing and -your- points.

Is this a Homer moment, or is there a connection which isn't obvious to me?

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Exiled in America]

109. I agree with you 100%.

[The Judged]

114. If everyone objects at the same time, can they still win?

[happyslug]

115. Murtha's home town paper supportive of Murtha

http://www.tribune-democrat.com/cnhi/tribunedemocrat/homepage/local_story_322002221.html?keyword=leadpicturestory

[yourout]

116. Its alway the right time to take a position on truth, honesty, and.....

doing the right thing.

[mopinko]

117. rahm emmanuel is becoming my pet peeve

he is out scraping the bottom of the barrel for primary opponents for good progressive candidates, and smearing them in the gossip columns (and through surrogates here on du, imho), while thugs go unopposed. he is a THE pimp for the corporate whores in our party.
i'm with you lefty-
fuck you rahm!!