Who will take credit for the Osama/ Dean TV smear in Dec. - Before Iowa

[cthrumatrix]

I'm waiting to hear from all the experts on here. Choices are:
-------------------------------------------------
Kerry -- not possible...DU'ers share

Gephardt -- claims he new nothing about it (claimed in the press)

DNC -- cherish the thought they would be against Dean (even though on their site...they are)

Repugs -- illegal...they can't interfere supposedly


This little video started the endless smear media campaign...I guess he was just tooo far ahead for somebody. BEFORE IOWA.........


So which camp wants to claim credit for smearing the primary race leader...Dean?

(original tv smear campaign ran in December before Iowa caucus
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/16/politics/main588924.shtml)

[cthrumatrix]

1. still waiting for all the "experts"...since you know why Dean went down

in the "polls" that he lead by soo much....

[eileen_d]

2. I'll bite...

Doesn't "the primary race leader" actually have to win a state primary? (that's one of the 50 states, not DC)

I didn't realize the Osama ad was an attack on Kerry.

[cthrumatrix]

5. Dean was "far ahead" of Gep, Kerry other before ad started...

so the question is...who did this..?

[eileen_d]

7. Define "far ahead"

No, polls don't count. Column inches in the media don't count either. What counts for me are votes, because in the end that's ALL that counts.

BTW, I love how you keep bringing up Gephardt... are you worried he'll trounce Dean next Tuesday?

[cthrumatrix]

10. Is 17 points ahead of Kerry on 12/11/03 mean anything....

Thursday, December 11, 2003
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dean Tops Iowa Poll
The latest poll from Survey USA/ WHO-TV in Iowa shows Dean leading among likely caucus-goers in the Hawkeye State. The results, with the November 24 results in parenthesis:

Dean 42 (32) Gephardt 23 (22) Kerry 15 (19) Edwards 10 (11)

http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002652.html

Gep denies repsonsibility (how convenient he's out now).

[eileen_d]

13. One poll of 400 potential Iowa caucus-goers with a 5% margin of error

is still a poll, and it still doesn't count.

And you think it's suspicious that Gephardt dropped out? Do go on.

[cthrumatrix]

15. lol...so sad you cannot admit to facts.... 4pts he still leads kerry by

13%...

[eileen_d]

17. The fact is, you have too much faith in polls.

I have faith in voters.

Why not stop your search for a scapegoat and promote your candidate?

[cthrumatrix]

18. have you ever heard of "cause and effect".... Dean went down after

the smear....he was ahead all over...and you know it...it started then and didn't stop...

So answer my question...who ran the ad...?

[eileen_d]

27. Dean was being smeared before the ad

He was smeared after the ad... the guy is a smear magnet, if not a smear factory. He may as well have a bullseye painted on his back.

Please stop telling me that I "know it" when I concede no such knowledge about whatever the heck you're talking about it. And you can count on *not* getting an answer to your question from me, because I have no idea, and none of us will until it is made public next month.

[cthrumatrix]

29. the most honest thing you said-somebody did it...thats what pisses me off

and if somebody did the same to your cnadidate you would be pissed too!

[dansolo]

43. Dean had more superdelegates

So technically he was the leader, even if they aren't committed to him.

[KC21304]

3. Could you be a little more specific ?

What video ? From Canada ? I thought that was about the Iowa caucus.

And you cherish the DNC ? That is very nice of you.

I'm lost.

[cthrumatrix]

4. this ad....run on TV smearing Bin Laden and Dean

Dean Tarred In 'Osama' Ad

WASHINGTON, Dec. 16, 2003

(CBS) Beth Lester and Dotty Lynch of the CBS News Political Unit report on a controversial new ad that attacks Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In its third ad in the past two weeks, the secretive 527 group Americans for Jobs, Healthcare & Progressive Values (AJHPV) brings out its harshest attacks to date against Howard Dean.

The ad's sole visual is a slowly moving shot of a Time Magazine cover featuring Osama bin Laden. As the picture zooms in on a close-up of bin Laden’s eyes, the announcer intones, "Howard Dean just cannot compete with George Bush on foreign policy." The ad concludes by asking Democrats – presumably those who currently support Dean - to "think about that … and think about it now."

The ad began airing in New Hampshire and South Carolina on Saturday, before the capture of Saddam Hussein. Two other AJHPV anti-Dean ads have aired in Iowa, both ending with a domestic variation of the Osama warning: "If you thought Howard Dean had a progressive record … check the facts … and think again." Overall, AJHPV has pledged to spend $400,000 on advertising in Iowa
snip

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/16/politics/main588924.shtml

[KFC]

8. I'm not too concerned about smearing Bin Laden

I didn't see the ad, but from the description - if this is all it takes to topple Dean, then he was an extremely weak candidate to begin with.

Better he is weeded out now.

[cthrumatrix]

22. so this is what you recommend in a presidential race...smear campaigns?

[blm]

6. That charge was false. Why do you keep making it?

Prove it or delete it.

Kerry's campaign sent a letter refuting the ad shortly after it came out. They had NOTHING to do with it.

Why are you smearing him constantly with FALSE information?

[Freddie Stubbs]

9. It was a labor group backed by Gephardt supporters

You can take it out on Gephardt when your state holds it primary.

[cthrumatrix]

11. that's all too convenient....smear the guy and drop out....and then

deny he knew anything about it....

the reality is that Dean was smoking people before Osama smear started ...let alone John Edwards smear book after the caucus

I'm waiting to hear ...from somebody who wants to claim credit for the smearing of Dean

[sangh0]

12. innuendo

.

[cthrumatrix]

14. still waiting..............waiting for experts....on how Dean "imploded"

tell me who did this...?

[blm]

16. Go look it up. It was a union and had NOTHING to do with Kerry who you're

smearing with your baseless charge.

[cthrumatrix]

19. a union put it together.... who made the union do it..and why?

[sangh0]

21. who made the union do it???

You don't have much experience with unions, do you?

No one tells the unions what to do. They're tough M-F's

[cthrumatrix]

24. give me a break...... they created the "ad...they hired a creative agency'

and ran in in multiple states...?

(because they are tough?)

[sangh0]

33. Huh?

I don't see how the unions creating the ad, hiring the agency, and running the ad in multiple states demonstrates that someone "made them do it"

[cthrumatrix]

20. I can't claim conspiracy....I will use facts...so factually tell me

who did this...?

[blm]

23. YOU smeared Kerry with NO FACTS.

.

[cthrumatrix]

26. answer my question..i'm presenting facts...can you answer or not..?

[blm]

34. Present the FACT that Kerry was behind the ad.

BEFORE you smear him again.

[cthrumatrix]

35. read the text of the links ... Joe Trippi said it had links...to him and

Gephardt...he coulnd't prove it..nobodty can prove the slime...

and when and if the truth comes out...and if it goes back to Kerry, the DNC or Gep.

This is just like election 2000...an injustice has been done...

can you agree with that?

[quinnox]

25. Skull and bones

[cthrumatrix]

28. so as I suspected....you are all happy to have Dean implode based

on a smear stated before the Iowa polls...

Nobody can or will answer the question.

Nobody wants to agree the Dean was ahead in Iowa an nationally.

Nobody wants to see what was done....


AND NONE OF YOU COME FORWARD WITH AN ANSWER...BUT ...NOW YOU WANT DEAN SUPPORTER VOTES....

[eileen_d]

31. You have yet to provide conclusive proof for your assertions

Specifically:
1) That any Democratic candidate (not a candidate supporter) was directly involved in the Osama ad
2) That the Osama ad was directly responsible for Dean's failure to win Iowa.

You can cry "cause and effect" all you want - but if my leg is wet, that doesn't necessarily mean it's raining. You may have just peed on my leg.

[cthrumatrix]

32. we can prove "somebody wanted to slow Dean"...that is a fact

since the mutli-state ads were not "flattering"...point one

we can conclude that is was to favor somebody below Dean since Dean lead the in the polls (a fact I shared)

we can conclude somebody purposefully wanted to bring down Dean nationally....



Whoever did it is "evil" either way - democrat or repug and a great injustice has been done again.

I guess this reminds me too much of election 2000...people dont stand up for being 'wronged'...

[eileen_d]

39. "wanting to slow Dean" is not in and of itself evil

The ads were inflammatory crap, as I have stated. I don't support the ads or their creators.

But it's neither evil nor illegal for any private citizens to support candidates other than Dean, or even to desire to "bring Dean down," and to use the resources at their disposal to do so.

As for your Dean's "lead in the polls" - you cited a single poll in Iowa. It's still not enough.

[isbister]

30. Former Gephardt people

and one lower-down-the-ladder PR employee that had worked for Kerry but got bounced out in his October(?) purge.

Is the thought here that Kerry was somehow behind this?

If so, look at what the group stands for, not quite Kerry's NAFTA position, closer to Gephardt's.

Didn't Dean do something a day or two before this ad came out?

[maddezmom]

36. what did Dean do?

I for one think it was Gep's folks, but it's speculation at best. But considering the unions that gave money to the ad firm demanded it back, kinda makes sense.

[cthrumatrix]

37. it doesn't answer who wanted to "stop Dean"...I want these people

exposed...and punished.

[sangh0]

40. Former Gephardt people

Go after them in the next primary :-)

[eileen_d]

41. Here are their addresses...

(just kidding)

[isbister]

42. Dean

stopped Dean.

Dean or his people should've seen what was happening in December and it didn't seem as if they did until it was too late.

The "we're not safer" comment or the ad a few days later only began the slide. Dean didn't begin losing his huge lead until a lot closer to Iowa. It's that week or two before Iowa where he really messed up and where he really lost his huge lead.

Instead of asking about this one ad that really didn't do too much damage to him (might have hurt Gephardt more once his name got attached to it), ask this:

What role did Trippi's ad deal with Dean play? was the campaign spending too much money? and we're they relying on ads in Iowa in exchange for getting in there with the people?

[isbister]

38. Dean..

made the remark about Saddam on...what... the ninth? For me the comment about our being any safer can be argued both ways. I believe that technically we're safer (over the long run) but I think Dean's point of view was right too. But that really got the ball rolling.

I think Dean recognized that the Party needed an anti-war face and he took it. He may have failed to recogize that the media needed an anti-war face and Saddam's capture meant they didn't need that face as much any more.They love to build 'em up and tear 'em down.

Then he began what seemed like a gaffe a day... the bin Laden video was there near the beginning.

Dean should have seen what was happening and hid a bit. Get his boots on the ground with the people, take a few extra days away from the trail here and there. He had such a large lead, he should've coasted. They could've used the time to rest up and fine tune their plan as the voting approached. Instead he... well, let's just say he got a little too wrapped up in being the front-runner.

Now having said all of that... that stuff only caused Dean to slip he didn't really start going downhill until just before Iowa and then it was kind of a perfect storm thing that happened.

- Kerry and Edwards went positive (pretty much).

- Kerry and Edwards both got the newspaper endorsements.

- Kerry got the Gov's wife, the AG and a few other local endorsements.

- Dean was bringing in all of the outsiders and trying to tell Iowa that the others were the insiders.

- Dean and Gephardt went negative on each other and didn't recognize how important it is for Dems to beat bush...and not beat each other up so much that we cannot compete in the fall.

- The TV stuff came out where Dean was criticizing their system of voting. That never goes over big anywhere. His initial response came of weak to me. I wouldn't think it went over too well there.

[dsc]

44. We will find out on Feb 1 which is three days

and I, for one, can't wait.

[John_H]

45. I didn't like the ad--but there's no need misrepresent it.

The ad did not compare dean with oasama. The ad said that osama wanted to destroy america and dean was not experienced enough to stop him.

The Point is that the rethugs can't run this ad against someone like clark. They would be able to have run worse ads if he would have been the nominee.