No, Kaine's win must not be called a win for the religious Democrats.

[madfloridian]

I have seen it several times today, that he constantly talked of his religion on the campaign trail. That it was showing that Democrats could hold their own on religion. Let us not go there, my friends.

I think Kaine won for the same reason so many other Democrats won...anger and outrage and fear of what they are doing to this country. I think the right arm of the party, the one which says we do NOT support women's rights....is getting into the fray. The Third Way, a DLC wing of the party headed by the Clintons, says we need to appeal to the "abortion greys" I think was the term they used.

Kaine is a good man, a staunch Catholic. He is not pro-choice, but says he will uphold the laws. Now I see that Amy at Washington Monthly, who is causing me to put on my tinfoil hat about her sneaky little articles on choice...is at it again. I will present her article in a moment.

I can not handle it if they are going to use his win as a win for the religious in the party. It is almost intolerable to think they would, but I think they are going to do it. I could better accept Dean's position, "keep government out of our personal choices" than having it turned into a religious win.

It upsets me so because it is coming up again a few other races where the candidates are being pretty actively chosen by the party leaders.

First, Amy Sullivan's article. Look up some of her other ones if you wish. It is like she has a mission to convince us not to fight on this issue.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_11/007524.php

FAITH INDEED....The post-mortems of yesterday's elections will continue, but already one of the conclusions forming about Tim Kaine's victory in Virginia is that it shows how a religious Democrat can neutralize the recent Republican advantage on cultural issues and character.

Kaine talked about his faith consistently, starting from the very beginning of his campaign. He didn't throw it out as an honor badge for which he should get instant credit, but explained how his work as a Catholic missionary in Central America formed his commitment to public service. And although Kaine relied on his Catholicism to explain his personal opposition to both abortion and the death penalty, his insistence that as governor he should not impose his religious beliefs on others by blocking either one was an argument voters--if not pundits--understood and supported.

AND just see the article to which it links...even more into the cultural win they want it to be. This is from The New Republic, which I have heard might working with The Third Way in their new media...can't prove, they won't tell.

It is called Beating Them with a Kaine, and it is not a very pleasing article to me.....I see right wing of the party talking points coming out the you know what. All over the place.

http://www.tnr.com/blog/theplank?pid=3395

BEATING THEM WITH A KAINE:

The Kaine victory is really a rebuke to the Howard Dean model of running campaigns. It shows that a Democrat can triumph in a southern state by running a centrist campaign that blurs cultural differences. Of course, Kaine represented the incumbent party in a state race, and getting frothing mad wouldn't have done anyone any good. Perhaps, even Dean would have taken Kaine's tact. But the neatest trick of the race was the way in which Kaine leveraged his Catholicism so effectively in such a Protestant state. Unlike John Kerry, he sounded authentic when invoking his faith to oppose the death penalty. That's because he also opposes abortion, and, therefore, doesn't sound like a cafeteria Catholic. And he could effectively and credibly explain his activism as flowing from his belief in the social gospel and missionary work. As I have argued before, Republicans have had a field day borrowing rhetoric from Catholicism. Democrats should do the same. And I say that as a Jew.

Casey in PA has been chosen by Schumer and Reid, and his anti-choice stance, his stance that pharmacists has a right to refuse the morning after pill on religious beliefs....do not matter to them. Here is what was on the audio of a fundraiser...Schumer's own words:

Schumer called up Governor Rendell and asked him who the best candidate would be to beat Rick Santorum. Rendell reportedly said, "Bob Casey, but he won't run, and you don't want him to run." Schumer explained what happened next:

I said why wouldn't we want him to run, he said he's pro-life. He's a deeply religious Catholic man. Bob Casey."
"I said, those days are over Ed. Yes I'm pro-choice, but we need the best candidate. We can't insist that every democrat check off 18 different issues before they get (unintelligible) we could do that, we can't anymore. And so, we persuaded, Harry (Reid) using his very...Harry has amazing insights into people...and we together persuaded Bob Casey to run.

They persuaded Casey to run by assuring him that he would not face any competition in the primary. To that end they pressured the pro-choice Barbara Hafer to get out of the race.

Here are Casey's views, from a post at Booman which is quite thorough and fair and much appreciated by a lot of us.

Casey, Jr. is against gay couples adopting children; he is against domestic partner benefits; he does not recognize same gender marriages in other states; and he supports BOTH the Pennsylvania Defense of Marriage Law and the Federal Defense of Marriage Act. In addition, Casey, Jr. believes that Catholic healthcare providers should not be required to deliver services contrary to their conscience and moral teachings.

Some of us are concerned the last week or so that moves are on the way to marginalize some folks....all of this makes me wonder if it is just rumor. We do not need to go to this place right now. We should be glad for the wins...Kaine and Corzine are good men. The local Democrats who won are varied in views as well. They won because Democrats are standing up to Bush, and because of the anger toward him right now.

It was a win for all of us in the party, and I fear they are going to spoil it by playing the religion and choice cards.

[Gloria]

1. Agree. STRONGLY agree......

Personally, I'm really NOT happy about Casey. Rendell was right.
I would sit PA Gov. out if I were there. Casey is way too far right for me.

You can take the "values" crap too far. It can be addressed in secular language, too....without running GOPers in Dem clothing....

I was speaking to a friend today about how I DO NOT TRUST the Democratic leadership on Alito and the whole abortion issue. I fear they will throw women overboard without any hesitation. There is no really consistent message. You'd think with a doctor heading the DNC you could at least hear some arguments about all the dangers of illegal abortion, some persuasive "standing up to the plate" for women's health issues.

I don't see any strong convictions on this and when you see all this pandering about religiosity....it makes me very queasy about this party.

[shance]

5. Casey is by definition, a Conservative Republican.

He is being promoted by DSCC to take the Democratic primary without a fair and equitable primary by their attempt to stack it for Casey. Pennsylvania Democrats should protest such an annointment and I hope that they will.

Chuck Pennacchio is a Democrat that will represent Pennsylvania fairly and is not an ideologue concerned with governing women's bodies. Casey on the other hand, does not fit a Democratic profile in any capacity that I can see.

[DaveinMD]

12. Casey

is progressive on everything but abortion. He's not a conservatie Republican.

[DaveColorado]

6. I am pro choice and believe Plan B should be on the shelf next to condoms

On the other hand, I believe the Dem party should have room for people who are with us on core economic issues, etc. but may differ on social issues.

I think ultimately the victory the other night was a referendum on W, and not on religion in politics.

[pinto]

2. To state the obvious, Kaine won because he got more votes than the Repub.

[spooky3]

8. and evidence suggests just the opposite of what the

"religion won him this election" proponents claim.

1) Kaine's TV ads, and in NoVA I saw plenty of them, said very little about his religion. He talked about it IN RESPONSE to attacks from Kilgore. The ads focused on education, roads, and how slimy Kilgore's charges against him were.

2) Kilgore ATTACKED Kaine for opposing the death penalty and appearing to "flip flop" on abortion depending on which part of the state he was visiting. Kaine responded by saying that the attacks were unfair (as did many newspapers he cited) and that his religious beliefs would NOT affect his upholding the law. Pro choice voters who would tend Democratic would certainly have qualms based on religious opposition to choice, so his religious views are hardly an advantage with these voters. Religious voters who shared Kaine's religious views ought to support him, so that would make no sense for Kilgore to emphasize. What about those whose religious views favor of the the death penalty and who also believe that these views should influence enforcement of the law? Seemingly, if there were a lot of these voters, Kilgore's ads should have had more impact. So if the results had anything to do with religion, then the majority of voters were saying we want candidates who keep their personal religious views OUT of their enforcement of the law and other political decisions.

[madfloridian]

11. That's interesting, thanks.

You can see where people like Amy Sullivan and the guy at TNR could confuse those of us from other states.

They are using him in a way he did not want to be used apparently.

[progdonkey]

19. very true

the gist of the election was as follows: Kilgore: "Liberal Kaine is a liberal who is so liberal he doesn't believe Hitler would qualify for the death penalty! Liberal Kaine says he's against abortion but doesn't favor overturning Roe v. Wade--he can't have it both ways!"

Kaine: "I'm against the death penalty because I'm a very observant Catholic, which also explains my aversion to abortion, though I also believe it's the job of the governor to enforce the laws as they are, whether I personally favor them or not."

The only reason Kaine ever brought up his missionary work and strong Catholicism was to defend his principled aversion to both the death penalty and abortion. Had Kilgore spent less time trying to scare people with the word "liberal," no one would ever have even known that Kaine was a Catholic, let alone a very observant one.

[Mass]

3. I agree

And they also won because they led an united fight ans an united message. This is what is so great and should show us the way for the future.

[spooky3]

9. Unlike Gore, Kaine tied himself as closely as he could

to Mark Warner's successful governorship (vs. Gore, who distanced himself from Clinton). Voters who wanted to continue what Warner had started were given an opportunity to "re-elect" Warner by voting for Kaine. I think this was a very big factor.

[cry baby]

4. He won as a Democrat, not a religious Democrat.

Just glad he won!

[DaveinMD]

13. nothing wrong

with Dems talking about their faith. Kaine did that. He also ran as a mainstream progressive Dem. These aren't mutually exclusive items.

[Erika]

7. Kaine ran as pro-choice, anti-death penalty

He said personally he had his religious beliefs but that he respected the religious beliefs/non-beliefs of all others and that above all, he respected the law.

It was very much like saying "I don't believe in abortion, so I won't have one" but you make your own decision for you.

He did a beautiful job in my opinion.

His priorities were economic issues, not social issues.

[madfloridian]

10. And they should not turn it into a religious thing about choice.

I don't live in VA, and I am glad there was a Democratic winner. I don't know how he campaigned. I just don't want it turned into an issue of religion.

[Rowdyboy]

14. In a sense, its almost like you're saying "Okay, Republicans are free

to use religion to their benefit to connect with those voters who consider that a major factor. But Democrats must not use or mention their faith, however genuine and relevant to a situation, because you, personally, dislike the inclusion of religion in the public debate. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I, too, find religion an unimportant, inappropriate, non-issue in a political race. Many, if not most long-time posters on DU feel the same way. But, at the same time, I don't think people with real religious convictions like Kaine should feel restrained from discussing the subject in context.

Should he make a point of stressing his religiosity in an interview? Hell, no. Should he be comfortable discussing the subject if questioned in an interview? Of course.

I think Kaine did an excellent job of balancing questions about his faith with questions of public policy. Hopefully, he'll do just as good a job as governor.

[madfloridian]

15. Not arguing what he said....arguing what some are turning it into.

I thought I was pretty clear...that I don't live in VA, I am proud of Kaine's win, that I don't like the way they are trying to use it to push religion and choice.

I thought I was clear. I don't know how he campaigned.

[Rowdyboy]

18. Sorry, I often read too fast (not the first time)....I don't like the.....

emphasis on religion in news stories either, unless it is what the governor-elect wants, and somehow I doubt that. Most people who are serious about religion would prefer it be kept private, and I respect Tim Kaine as a serious person.

I don't believe he pushed the subject in the campaign, but it had to come up because Kilgore's main campaign theme was Kaine's opposition to the death penalty on religious grounds.

I mean, there wasn't any way he could avoid the subject when his opponent made it a major issue :shrug:

[autorank]

17. Kaine sounded like Cuomo on the issue, Cuomo Sr.

Your personal views on religion don't get in the way of handling a job that's not supposed to be ruled by your personal religious views. Cuomo has said these words many times.

People were just furious that the shithead Kilgore ran an ad like this.

There were two big complaints -- don't call me so much (robo calls by Republicans killed them) and don't pollute my tv with dirty ads, very strong negative reactions to that.

The religious issue was incidental. Unless you're one of the 25% Fallwell-Robertson nutjob contingent in VA, it's very open minded here. People don't talk much about religion.

[Rowdyboy]

20. Thats very reassuring....Mario is one of the greatest presidents America

never had. One of my major professors, Bob McElvaine, wrote an excellent bio of Cuomo and worked withhim frequently. Cuomo was able to be an exceptional governor and hold fast to his religious convictions without batting an eye. I can't believe he lost the that worthless, scumsucking, POS George Pataki.

Thank God, New York is about to rectify that mistake next November.

The Kilgore ads sounded really abysmal. How stupid do they think the average voter is? And the robocalls only serve to piss me off.

[autorank]

22. ...what a lost opportunity. I was hanging on his announcement...

I think calling is on the way out period. Our voters got tired of calls because Kaine's pros rightly were monsters on GOTV, they were way past the Kilgore people and pushing for more. It was like having Patton command GOTV, quite impressive...but, calls, nobody liked them. People can now stop telemarketing and that's what they see any calling for a cause...an unwanted intrusion. Literature drops, door knocking, & 'drive and drag'--going to marginal voter homes on election day--were all well received. Many voters stopped on the way out of the polling booth and said "thanks for your work."

As for stupidity...Northern Virginia is highly educated--85% college graduates. The knowledge industry is predominant. It took most of us, including the Republicans, about 10 seconds to pick up on the "spooky" music announcing the "Kaine is a liberal" smears. These ads were viewed as pathetic and Kilgore came across as insulting our intelligence. In addition, attacking him because he's a Catholic negated the obnoxious voting 'instructions' many Catholics hear at church.

Great day for the people, Jefferson smiled!

[Gloria]

21. Yes, it's sort of like the "Cuomo" stance...Cuomo was so

eloquent on this issue.

Kerry tried to approach abortion this way, but it wasn't good enough a year ago at the national level...how times (may) change...

[autorank]

16. Yesterday in VA was a cultural revolt and the year of the pissed off woman

I ran a precinct in Northern Virginia, 90% well off, 8% kinda, and 2% soon to be kinda well off. It's a majority white and very well educated. It went Kerry 53% to 47%.

Our numbers matched Arlington (Berkley East) and Alexandria (Dem stronghold). We actually beat them by a bit.

Two things happened yesterday, IMHO (I'll know more when I can look at numbers with some degree of rest).

1) It was a cultural revolt. Republicans up here have tolerated the Falwell-Robertson-crypto racist down state Republicans with a wink and a nod on the tax issue. Kilgore and the Falwell clones down ticket were just too much. Kilgore is what he looks like, a weasel and his bearing doesn't help.

I think that many of the reflexive financially driven Republicans said "Enough, we've had it, I won't have this clown as my governor. It's just too offensive." I think that a portion of those Republicans who voted for him in my precinct did so because they are loyal party people and held their noses. I know that if Warner ran a second time against Kilgore it would have been 80%-20% Warner.

What does that mean? The professional class has had it with 'cultural conservatives' and finds them so offensive they're done voting for them.

2) Professional women were very pissed off at the Republicans. The Republican ticket, all three (Gov, Lt.Gov, AG) are all anti-abortion in extreme and anti-woman by implication. My precinct has a majority of two professional families. Since I viewed every walk-up to the polling place, I can say this. I only had about 1 in 20 women turn down my Democratic sample ballot. About 4 out of five women turned down the Republican ballot and most of them were angry. They made a nasty face, put their hands up, rolled their eyes, and otherwise let their displeasure be known.

It was apparent from start to finish. The at home wives, casually dressed or with strollers, were more laid back but the professional women were pissed. Some stopped to talk to me after voting and they were just adamant. It was great.

This may or may not generalize to other communities but Northern Virginia was over 60% - 40% Kaine and this is what happened where I was.

Jefferson smiled.

[madfloridian]

23. Yes, I was right about TNR carrying water for the Third Way dems.

I guess the September conference hosted by TNR in Aspen is bring forth talking points.

http://www.third-way.com/products/national_security.htm

"Legislation: Third Way is helping to design, produce and inspire legislation intended to shore up areas of weakness in our national defense and to underscore the progressives’ commitment to strength and security. We are working closely with a number of Senate offices of both political parties to introduce legislation on this subject. The United States Army Relief Act of 2005, introduced on July 13th by Third Way National Security Project Chairman Senator Joe Lieberman and Senators Hillary Rodham Clinton, Bill Nelson and Jack Reed, along with Representatives Ellen Tauscher and Mark Udall, resulted from a Third Way report detailing the serious crisis facing the Army. Another Third Way bill would improve relations between civilian employers and members of the National Guard and Reserve.

Events: Third Way is hosting a dinner series to bring together leading experts on national security policy for substantive discussions with Third Way Senate chairs and senior Senate staff. In the spring of 2005, Third Way hosted national security dinners featuring former Senators Sam Nunn and Gary Hart, as well as more than 20 others: senior policymakers like Sandy Berger, Graham Allison, Dennis Ross, and Mickey Kantor, commentators like Peter Beinart (Editor of The New Republic), and a variety of other opinion leaders.

Briefings: Third Way is holding a series of monthly luncheon briefings for senior Senate staff, designed to help shape policy and messaging options on military force structures, homeland security, intelligence reform, and energy policy, among other things. Featured guests at these briefings have included former Senator Gary Hart, Dr. Kenneth Pollack (noted author and former senior NSC staffer for the Persian Gulf region), and Dr. Andrew Krepinevich (the leading thinker on military transformation).

Conferences: Third Way is teaming with other organizations to host semi-annual retreats that will engage Senators, senior progressive officials, and experts on security affairs on issues that go to the heart of the progressive problem on national security. The first such retreat, co-hosted by The New Republic, will take place in September at the Aspen Institute’s Wye River Plantation. The insights and arguments elicited at that retreat will play a major role in the production of the first Third Way blueprint on national security.

AND perhaps the role of women in the party as well? Just a thought. I see several other articles on a quick search today, but I've made my point, I guess.

[Arkana]

24. This line right here pisses me off:

The Kaine victory is really a rebuke to the Howard Dean model of running campaigns. It shows that a Democrat can triumph in a southern state by running a centrist campaign that blurs cultural differences.

How is it a "rebuke" to the Howard Dean model of running campaigns? All that line does is play into the RW talking point that Kaine ran on Kilgore's platform.