I am a long time supporter of Kerry. He's wrong to backpedal on

[texpatriot2004]

whatever statement he made on the issue of election fraud. He needs to stand up. We need him to stand up. Many people would benefit from his making this statement and standing by it!

I am a long time Kerry fan. Like many others I got over, or past the concession. I, like many others, waited patiently for a year while facts were gathered and evidence compiled about election fraud. Today, I read (and I am excited to read) that Kerry says he believes he was robbed; then, within hours he goes back on his word. I am so disgusted. I was just defending him this morning and then poof he does it again.

The election fraud issue HAS to come out. I don't care if the Easter Bunny breaks the friggin' news. This whole evil regime that has taken over our government is propped up by the illusion that they were all elected; and NONE of them were. The sooner that illusion is wiped away, the sooner the entire house of cards falls to the ground.

While people play politics, the world is getting worse and worse. Kerry's going back on this statement is horrid. Americans need to believe, I need to believe that there are people in our government who are taking this issue seriously. We need a leader to rally around on THIS ISSUE.

I keep hearing it has to be the people. Write your Senator, write your Congressman...newsflash, my Senator and my Congressman are Rethugs who are allied with the neoconster gang. I still write them...it doesn't matter. I write others too since my "Representatives" don't represent me. Our government has been taken over, a hostile take-over of our government. We have no checks and balances, no oversight...

Enough is enough! They will keep on stealing them. 2006 won't matter. 2008 won't matter.

Flame away.

PS To me, the most important thing is to rid ourselves of this evil regime and IMHO revealing the election fraud issue is the most expeditious way to get them out.

Especially right now, with scandals everywhere and public polls against him/them.

This evil regime can be taken down by revealing this NOW. In my opinion it is now so much about changing the future laws, although I am all for that. It's about ridding ourselves of this counterfeit regime that has taken over two-thirds of our government.

It's urgent that we reveal the issue of election fraud.

[Quakerfriend]

1. Thx tex!!

You've expressed my sentiments exactly!!:bounce:

[texpatriot2004]

2. Thank you. I am so angry, so fed up...it's a sticky subject but I

believe that the sooner the election fraud issue is faced the better. Glad you can relate.

[Mass]

3. It is about ELECTION FRAUD whether or not the election was stolen

Note that Kerry did not deny there WAS fraud in Ohio and elsewhere, which is the important thing AND the only thing democrats are claiming.

Kerry is fighting on these issues. He is simply not ready to say that the election was stolen. Just ask yourself the question: what is more important:

- that fraud is investigated and laws are fixed so that future election are fraud free even if Bush won after all.

- that Kerry whines on the 2004 election now that it is too late.

Your choice.

I notice that neither Boxer, Conyers, the CBC, ... are saying the election was stolen. They are VERY careful that this does not happen because they want to fix future laws WHETHER Kerry has really won the election or not.

In addition, in the climate of the Senate, the fact that Miller names Dodd made it inevitable that Kerry would deny.

Once again, it is NOT about Kerry. It is about election fraud and ALL senators and congresspeople should be involved. The fact that THIS election is stolen or not is only secondary. There was election fraud and ANY election fraud is a problem.

If we make that about the fact the election was stolen, we are counterproductive as we CANT prove it. What we CAN prove is that there were multiple violations WHETHER Kerry really won or not.

[texpatriot2004]

4. We can prove that the result could only happen with fraud. n.t

[Mass]

6. Is that really the important thing - or is it that we change laws so that

future elections are not rigged.

We can prove NOW that some people were disaffrenchised for a variety of reasons. We have the DNC report, we have all the other reports. We should fight on that and lobby so that the laws are changed.

All the rest is a distraction (as much as, in a selfish POV, I would like that Kerry tells all these people F* You, I won).

[texpatriot2004]

8. To me, the important thing is to get this evil regime OUT NOW...

and IMHO revealing the election fraud issue is the most expeditious way to get them out.

Especially right now, with scandals everywhere and public polls against him/them.

This evil regime can be taken down by revealing this NOW. In my opinion it is now so much about changing the future laws, although I am all for that. It's about ridding ourselves of this counterfeit regime that has taken over two-thirds of our government.

It's urgent that we reveal the issue of election fraud.

[Mass]

9. In this case, we need a lot more than we have.

we need somebody from one of the major BBV companies testifying there was a fraud and that Bush or Cheney were involved in the planning.

This is the only way and even there, we still would probably get Hastert.

So the best way is still 06 - impeachment of Bush and Cheney.

But we have to reveal the election fraud issue. I agree with that, and this can be done by ANY leading Democrat (Dean, Reid, Pelosi, helped by Conyers would be a lot more effective than Kerry for that, particularly if Kerry supported them).

[Zodiak]

20. Ahem, make that 3/3 of the government

The Supreme Court has been far from liberal for years, preferring to be a center-right, pro-corporate Supreme Court. It is not neocon, but they have the WHOLE enchilada already. Only one more neocon on the court and life in this country will change for the worse for the rest of our lifetimes.

It is that serious.

[texpatriot2004]

5. I respectfully disagree. It's about BOTH in my opinion. n.t

[5X]

7. No flames from me. I wasn't a big Kerry supporter..

I did vote for him, of course, after the primaries.
But, the dems that were elected need to stand up and fight.

[texpatriot2004]

10. Well, I have supported him for along time. nm

[texpatriot2004]

11. Reveal the election fraud and blow this house of cards down

NOW!

[Mass]

12. He has already done that numerous times

Here is his statement from Jan 6,2005

Since then, he has continued to talk about election fraud, last time being on wednesday. Miller is off the mark on this subject.

He does not need to say the election was stolen to speak about election fraud.

http://blog.thedemocraticdaily.com/?page_id=1065

The questions being raised by my colleagues in Congress about the vote in Ohio are important. As evidenced by the media and Congressman JOHN CONYERS’ report of the vote in Ohio, there were many voting irregularities in the November election that led to the disenfranchisement of voters. These included long lines at predominantly minority polling places resulting from the failure to provide sufficient number of voting machines; voter intimidation and misinformation; the restriction of provisional ballots in a fashion that likely disenfranchised voters; and instances in which malfunctioning voting machines transferred Kerry votes to Bush. .

[texpatriot2004]

13. He does need to say that it was stolen. n.t

[Mass]

14. I have to disagree with you.

[texpatriot2004]

15. Okay. nm

[texpatriot2004]

25. That doesn't say it was stolen. Those things are not about the

fraud.

[desi826]

34. A Nit over this

Mass wrote:

"He does not need to say the election was stolen to speak about election fraud."


No, but he DOES need to say that to bring the culprits that are indulging in this behavior to justice.

They should NOT be allowed to continue with this, and the only thing that will stop them is the threat of jailtime.
Put them under oath and they'll sing.

Federal election tampering is a crime punishable by prison and look at Katherine Harris.

She is a Rep in Congress.

The actions of election personnel need to be called into attention.

Or every election there will be more and more Kenneth Blackwells.

Why not?

There will be no repercussions of their criminal behavior.
In fact, they will prolly be rewarded.

But the real tragedy about this is that all of this fraud is being perpertrated on the minorities in this country.

They come into OUR neighborhoods, and take away every right we have, while employing more and more Jim Crow like tactics, and all you guys say is, "it can't be proven, so hey let's drop it and focus on the future."

Maybe some of us want to see these people in jail.

Maybe some of us want to see some justice after having our communities and rights, ravaged by asshole Repubs every two years.

It's stuff like this that is the reason Dems are losing the minority vote every year since the 2000 election.
Des

[karynnj]

60. To bring people to justice you need evidence

that is admissable in a court of law. There are some cases. Some NH Republicans were convicted of hampering the get GOTV effort by having telemarkers rapid call the Dem phone banks in the 2002 election. Only this year were they sentenced. There are at least 2 indictmants in Cleaveland pertaining to the re-count. The whole Noe situation in Ohio may lead to indictments.

Kerry saying he THINKS there is massive enough fraud to have swung the election would do nothing. (other than embarrass Kerry) They can only go to court when they have sufficient proof on specific actions.

Even then - if Rove (secretly injected with truth serum) listed every illegal thing done, assuminmg there were and he had a hand in it - the Bush/Cheney administrtion would not be replaced by Kerry/Edwards - It's not in the constitution.

Therefore, Kerry and any other Democrat show concentrate on fixing the problem. If it would have been fixed after 2000 - we might have done better in 2002. If there was action after 2002, Kerry could have won. Now, rather hampering Kerry and losing one person who is trying to fix things because he won't say what he may feel he can't defend to the level he is comfortable with, shouldn't we be trying to fix the problem before 2006.

[Rowdyboy]

16. I believe Kerry's 2008 presidential campaign started when he said

the 2004 election was stolen. It ended when he back-peddled.

[Mass]

17. As he did none of those, too bad.

[texpatriot2004]

18. Yep. You can't move forward until you dig out. n.t

[texpatriot2004]

19. This will follow Kerry like pig pen's dark cloud. n.t

[DemDogs]

64. Ended when he disagreed with Edwards

and agreed with Shrum. Edwards said to fight, and Kerry went with Shrum's advice. <http://www.consortiumnews.com/2005/110505.html>

When did he decide not to fight? When did he decide not to send $15 million to Ohio? Instead, he kept it -- his 2008 piggy-bank. Lost 2008 for me then.

[hopein08]

21. Question...

You said, "Today, I read (and I am excited to read) that Kerry says he believes he was robbed; then, within hours he goes back on his word. I am so disgusted," and that got me to thinking (admittedly in conjunction with all of the other threads of the topic).

What if he never said anything of the sort to Miller? Could you agree that possibly Kerry didn't go back on his word because it was never his word?

Of course, what I'm saying is purely hypothetical speculation, but I think it is a little to early to condemn Kerry to a fiery political death based simply on a he said/he said basis.

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm picking on you because I'm really not. My response to this whole thing just hit me when I read your post.

By the way, I know there is a lot of election fraud and many theories on how to fix it, it really is one of my weaker areas that I'd like to build up on. If you know a lot about the issue, i.e., types of fraud, paper ballots, etc., could I possibly ask you some questions of PM or something? It's fine if you say no, I was just wondering.

[texpatriot2004]

22. Kerry issued a statement on the matter. I believe a private

conversation took place. All the he said, he said stuff won't matter. Now what will matter is that Kerry took it back. He didn't stand by the statement.

If you have questions about the fraud feel free to ask. I am no expert but I am informed. Whatever you prefer, PM or post...doesn't matter to me.

[kerrygoddess]

23. Actually it's wasn't Kerry

It was a spokesperson and it was taken out of context by Raw Story as well. Note a big difference in what I posted and what Raw posted.

Raw went on reactionary and I did research on what Kerry has been saying on the issue. There is a huge difference.

[texpatriot2004]

24. I know it was a spokesperson. Kerry is working on reform but he

must come out on the issue of election fraud which is a different issue.

[TayTay]

27. I see. So because he doesn't do what some people want

that means he is not working towards election reform.

Hmmm, the original statement from Mr. Miller states that Mr. Kerry was talking to his Senate colleagues and trying to get them to acknowledge that election fraud occurred. If Mr. Miller's version of events is true, then wasn't Sen. Kerry going around Capitol Hill trying to change the minds of other Democrats and get them all on the same page?

By Mr. Miller's own words, he was doing something and trying to get the issue on the Democrats front burner. Is this in dispute?

[texpatriot2004]

28. He's working on voting reform...he's not working on election fraud

That's the issue that must come out.

[TayTay]

31. Sen. Kerry specifically and on camera mentioned

fraud last week in Boston when he participated in the Selma-Boston commemorative march. He mentioned this in a brief speech to the crowd that was broadcast on Boston cable and on local tv stations. It specifically mentioned fraud. This is not the first time and it was not the first time that he said it publicly and on the record.

Fraud, fraud, fraud. He said it, his wife has said it, and his brother said it in an OpEd on the Huffington Post not too long ago. Fraud, fraud, fraud. In public and on the record in a 'you could look it up' kind of way.

[texpatriot2004]

40. Thanks for this info. I had no idea since I am in Texas and the

corporate media doesn't cover this.

[MelissaB]

48. I just received an email from a friend in the same area and she said she

saw it on television, too. I'd sure like to see a clip of that. Anybody have connections?

[MH1]

52. The video seems to have been taken down, but

at the time I transcribed the relevant quote.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=273&topic_id=48038&mesg_id=48084

(that is a link directly to my post, look at the entire thread for context).

REPORTER: Thousands took part in the march from Roxbury to Boston Commons, and were urged not only to remember the struggle but to continue it, especially with the Voting Rights Act of 1965 up for reauthorization in 2007.

KERRY: We're very concerned about what the Republicans want to do to it. They're trying to put these phony provisions in it, that actually make it harder for people to vote, pretending that they're trying to stop the very thing that they've been engaged in. Which is fraud.

[elshiva]

26. Thanks for being civil and discussing this.

[texpatriot2004]

29. I am trying to be civil. I have supported Kerry for a long time. It's

a difficult topic.

[politicasista]

30. ....

Check your pm.

[texpatriot2004]

33. I sent a reply :-) nm

[elshiva]

32. I would still support him if he won the nomination in 2008.

My impressions of him were of a thoughtful and understanding human being. Really can't say anything bad about him...

[autorank]

35. One of my favorite posters strikes again. I agree.

I supported for, worked for, and gave to Kerry. I don't think that the choice was even close.

I'd like him to loosen up a little, take some major risks, and bring out his fighting spirit...what is there to lose? Not much. We are going broke and we are reviled around the world.

To gain? The mobilization of the American people.

Bush is on the ropes. He's ready to drop.

All it takes is Kerry or somebody major to say, "You know what, the Republicans created a nightmare on election day. Some say that they stole the election but we know their tricks were on purpose. I DEMAND an immediate investigation by someone Prosecutor Fitzgerald appoints into deliberate election fraud."

[texpatriot2004]

37. Right. The time is now. Strike while the iron is hot. n.t

[EndElectoral]

36. Curious? Have there been any courtroom wins on election fraud yet?

[autorank]

39. Yes, see below...

From this article
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0511/S00067.htm

The Vigorous Pursuit of Election Integrity

<snip>

The Voter Action legal team includes San Francisco Bay area attorney Lowell Finley, an experienced litigator in civil and election rights cases. Mr. Finley is co director of Voter Action. He is also one of the very few lawyers to win a victory over a voting machine vendor when his client, Alameda County, CA, received a refund from Diebold Inc. for problems with their voting machines. Finley also successfully blocked California Governor Schwarzenegger from using campaign contributions to repay a $4 million personal loan to his campaign. Two distinguished New Mexico attorneys, John Boyd and David Garcia, complete the Voter Action litigation team. Boyd has extensive experience in civil rights, first amendment, constitutional, and election law. He is currently litigating a religious freedom case before the U.S. Supreme Court. Garcia has extensive experience in election law and served as co-counsel in the 2002 redistricting trials in New Mexico. Garcia is active in New Mexico politics and bar activities.

********

[karynnj]

66. For the 2002 NH Senate race they just indicted some Republicans

who stymied the GOTV effort by hiring telemarkrting companies to rapid dial the phone lines. Geting everything in order, getting an indictment, having a trial all take time.

There are some indictments in Ohio (though even if true they may not show votes lost - just illegal activities. (The clearest statement on what the Democrats saw in Ohio was Cam Kerry's statement.)

[kster]

38. Kick-n-Recommended..nt

[texpatriot2004]

43. Thanks for the K & R nm

[texpatriot2004]

41. Another thing, it's not that I believe the pundit/author over Kerry...

It's not that I believe the pundit/author over Kerry. It's just that once the comment is out there, denying it is the wrong thing to do. It opens him up, AGAIN,to the flip-flop crap and it is a knife in an old unhealed wound. He would have been better off to say nothing IMHO then
to backpedal here. You know?

I know he is working on voting reform...but election fraud is different, it's a separate issue. He is uniquely qualified here to come out on this
issue. Plus, it's like the concession until he faces it it's
not going to go away. He won't get the support that he could
get because he isn't fighting for all the people who went to
bat for him. Get it?

[Gregorian]

45. Unfortunately, the flip flop issue is something I just realized as well.

We all know Kerry is a prized politician. Compared to the human trash we're up against.

But he opened himself up to the spin machine.


My bottom line on this is that we simply ignore the spin machine and do what we want. Ie., he should speak the truth. And we know what that is. The republicans in the White House are criminals. They stole the election.

Stand up Mr. Kerry.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. In taht sense he has

[karynnj]

67. Kerry has spoken of fraud ( as recently as last Sunday)

at the Boston march with John Lewis - He even said Fraud to the TV reporter (NECN). What Kerry doesn't say is that there is sufficent legally provable fraud that shows the election was stolen. The likelihood is this is because he doesn't have that proof.

He is speaking the truth, but only to the extent that he really "KNOWS" it. As a prosecutor and in his Senate investigations, he was excrusiatingly exact - which is what made him so good. Even in politics, I can't think of any time where what he said extended beyond the facts.

[texpatriot2004]

42. I hate conflict. I hate Kerry bashing. I just think this issue isn't going

away for Kerry or for the rest of us either.

You know, in life, there are things that we all have to
face. I know personally this is true for me and some of the things I
don't face...they keep coming up again and again.

This is the crux of it...Kerry has this PR problem, a perception that
happened when he conceded (even Gore fought all the way to the
Supreme Court). It's an issue that is right there, for at
least half of the people in America, right there under the
surface and it WILL NOT GO AWAY.

He's going to have this stigma until he faces this issue - head on. I understand that this is dangerous and risky and likely to have fallout politically. At the same time, I understand how important his work in the Senate is. I don't have all the answers but I know that this issue
is still there, it's unfinished business that Kerry is in the
thick of whether he likes it or not.

[zann725]

44. Again, I'm entirely with you on this. But instead of writing ANY Senator.

write Kerry DIRECTLY again and again.

Every time he emails me about some speech he's given on certain issues, or the wrongs he believes there are....still trying to impress me from the Senate...

I simply "reply" email, "NOT ENOUGH. Speach up NOW. Tell the Truth about the '04 Election Fraud."

The time is NOW. THe country is ready...yes, even middle-America, Red States too...for the Truth. And for Prez. Kerry NOW!

Email and deluge his staff with calls. "Speak up about the '04 Election Fraud NOW!"

[Marleyb]

46. I am with you all the way!

"Reveal the election fraud and blow this house of cards down"

Now is the time!

[smoogatz]

47. It would be nice to see Kerry take a clear, unequivocal position

on SOMETHING, wouldn't it? The guy can't seem to stop tripping over himself--he is, IMO, everything that's wrong with the leadership of the Democratic party.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. I'll put in a way that many will not like

the man, like the rest of the party, took an oath to protect the constitution against enemies both foreign and domestic...

If and this is the big if, we can prove the election was stolen (and I believe it was, but what I believe is very different than what will stand up in a court of CRIMINAL LAW, aka burden of proof)... then not standing up to this issue proves to me that these men are not fit to lead this nation. Whether the name is Kerry, or is mickey mouse... they are not fit, period.

And of the Democratic leadership is avoiding the issue and walking on eggshells over it there are three reasons possible

1.- Burden of proof, they cannot prove it

2.- They can but they have been scared

3.- They won't because they still believe that this will have a huge destabilizing effect on the country (and its system of government) and it will.

So if this is case number one they won't admit to it UNTIL they can make a case in a Court of law... if this is the case... I may be angry with them, but justice is glacial at times. Those of us who have lived long enough or have a historical memory understand this, no this is not Boston Legal and the case is not wrapped up in an episode, at times it takes decades. On the brigth side I don't beleive there is a statue of limitations on what they did.

If this is door number two, which is a very good possibly, and we have plenty of evidence... none of them deserve to be elected... and yes the bush regime has used teroristic tactics against democrats, and the environment in DC is one of fear... talk to you local Democratic congress critter if you can on the issue (assuming they will talk... and if they went fully public whit it, it would be over... I have and what we have is a classic environment of fear)

Oh the third option is a classic in situations like this across history. Just that this nation is relatively young so it does not have much experience in this. The MPs or Members of Congress or ruling class decides that somethings are better left for historians many years later, maybe. The crumbs are usually left behind in letters, papers of the time, and other primary sources. But the common belief is... the people cannot handle it.


Now we are placing a heavy burden on them, what exactly are we prepared to do and sacrifice if all of a sudden you had Dean, Conyers, I don't know Kerry come out on national TV and go, yep the election in 2004 was stolen and here is the evidence. How many will immediately take to the streets, instead of blogging, and not go home until something substantial is done?

I am willing to bet the number will be very low... after all Survivor is up tonight, and they know that...

Yes the worm is turning, but not to the point that people are willing to take pitchforks and march down Pennsylvania Avenue.


That said John Kerry's presidential aspirations are probably over and if he ended up in the ballot I would have a hard time voting for him... a very hard time. The reason, the concession speech.



Oh and giving up, voluntarily mind you, your right to vote is not an asnwer either.

[bleever]

51. Election fraud is a cancer on democracy. It's a life and death issue.

"Our government has been taken over, a hostile take-over of our government. We have no checks and balances, no oversight...

Enough is enough! They will keep on stealing them. 2006 won't matter. 2008 won't matter."

You said it right there, texpat. I shared your elation when I read that Kerry had acknowledged it, and I share your deep disappointment at the subsequent denial.

[texpatriot2004]

53. Thank you Bleever for being here. It's urgent, it's beyond urgent

It would have been better for Kerry to say nothing at all then to issue a statement denying it IMHO.

[RazzleDazzle]

54. I'm not a Kerry supporter, 'cause I'm a quick study

and an excellent judge of character as well.

[texpatriot2004]

55. Right. I am sure. Welcome to DU nm

[mzmolly]

56. How does anyone know he back-peddled? I read Millers account

of the conversation, and no where did Kerry say the election was stolen? He said he felt he was robbed of votes, but that doesn't mean that the election was "stolen" per se.

I'm out for now, I'll check back later.

[texpatriot2004]

57. When you have been "robbed" then something was stolen. nm

[mzmolly]

59. Votes were stolen.

That's not in dispute.

[texpatriot2004]

62. So was the election nm

[mzmolly]

63. Perhaps.

nm ;)

[Rosco T.]

58. I think there's a simple explanation for this.. it's not time yet...

Kerry may have spoken too freely to Miller..

Yes, I think he feels this way,
Yes I think at the right point he'll come out guns blazing..

but RIGHT NOW, we don't want the 'sour grapes' chant to drive the SCOTUS, Secret Gulags, Treasongate, et.al. off the front pages.

It's going to take more to totally and completely turn the people against the Cabal, there are still those 30'ish percent that think Chimpy is god's chosen.

Let the dirty tricks of WHIG/Cheney get blasted more..
Let the dirty tricks of DeLay get proven in court
Let the Ohio scum get exposed (Coingate) and SHOW where the MONEY WENT..

THEN... open the door on the voting fraud.. somewhere around March I think...

[paulk]

61. the last thing Kerry wants right now

is to give the mainstream media an excuse to change the subject. The Bush administration is imploding - the focus needs to remain on that. For Kerry to come out now about the stolen election would be just the sort of distraction Bush needs, and the MSM would be willing to provide. That's why Kerry's spokesperson came down so hard on Miller, IMO.

[New Earth]

65. i am right there with you.

i admire him greatly but it doesn't mean i praise every thing he does and defend every word he says or doesn't say, or retracts....

he is a great speaker, i know he has it in him to bring this issue to the public in a professional manner without looking like a 'sore loser'. i am not a blind Kerry supporter, there are things i wish he'd do that he doesn't.

this is one of them. he now has an official government agency's report to help back the cause.

[lateo]

68. Kerry doesn't deserve the nomination again if this is his attitude.

"Fool me once...shame on...shame on...."