In church this morning...

[RayOfHope]

the scripture reading was about the Pharisees (those folks that made a big fuss about being religious but really weren't--it was all for show, not for God).

Right after the pastor finished the reading, he began his sermon by saying "there was a rancher from Texas...."

My eyes got HUGE and my jaw dropped, and I whispered "oh please oh please oh please"....

But unfortunately, he wasn't talking about dumbya. It was a good sermon though (pretty liberal Methodist church).

[texpatriot2004]

1. Why the hell aren't the churches speaking out against this

evil regime? Full of false prophets and actions that are Anti Christian?

[RayOfHope]

2. Some churches are doing it in an indirect way

because they are doing what they are *supposed* to be doing, which is staying out of politics (tax exempt and all that).

But in my church, nearly every Sunday brings messages of love, peace, and helping one another. It's political without being explicit, does that make any sense?

[William769]

4. Thats what my Church does.

[CarolNYC]

14. Yes, it does make sense

I guess I've been lucky in my Catholicism. I've been blessed to have good priests around me. Before the election last year, one of the priests at my Mom's church would pray that everyone have an equal chance to vote and have their vote counted. He spoke one Sunday of how life is not valued any more but said nothing about abortion or taking people off life support. Instead, he spoke of wars and injustice and terrorism of all kinds and not caring for the needy and things like that.

The other priest in her Church gave a great little lecture the Sunday before the election, after saying with disgust that he'd come out of an earlier Mass that morning to find a leaflet on his windshield claiming the Church was saying it was a sin to vote for John Kerry. He said the Church's actual stand was that you couldn't vote for someone because of their stance on something the Church condemned...like the Curch would not approve of a Catholic voting for Kerry primarily because of his stand on abortion but you could vote for Kerry in clear conscience if you were voting for him because of his concern for the poor or the elderly or his position on health care benefits, etc, etc...He listed a whole string of reasons that you might want to vote for Kerry. Then he said, likewise, you cannot vote for Bush because you support the war because the Church has condemned the war...I don't believe he mentioned a single reason why it would be OK to vote for Bush...It was great....He wasn't tell anyone who to vote for but you could definitely tell where his leanings were.

And, two Sundays ago, when the gospel was about "give to God what is God's and give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's, the priest at my NY Church had maybe the best sermon I've ever heard, all about how you can be true to your Christian values and obligations while fulfilling your obligations as a citizien AND keeping mindful of the separation of church and state. It was all about accepting everyone and not responding to events with violence, about keeping strong your core beleifs while respecting the beliefs of others who don't see things the way you do, about not judging or condemning, just a whole bunch of stuff that seemed like a condemnation of this Administration and the extreme religious right. I wish I had a transcript because there are a bunch of extremists who I'd love to show it to. It surprised me too, because I'd always thought he was kind of conservative leaning....

[Ikonoklast]

21. It has been my understanding that

as a Catholic except for the extreme right-wing Opus Dei types, there is an underlying fear of the breakdown between church and state by the church hierarchy in this country.
I am not sure that many realize the contempt if not downright hatred some of the evangelical sects and others of their ilk have for Catholics in this country, and would welcome the chance to use the power of the state to oppress any other brand of Christianity except their own narrow interpretation. After all, if all Catholics are going to hell anyway as some of these so-called Christians believe, it must be okay to oppress them while they are alive and deprive them of their rights.
Many sermons that I hear even remotely referring to voting or government in my church are almost always of the same type; to pray for a just and fair outcome for our country, and to remember the teachings of Christ when deciding issues.
I am amazed that the tax-exempt status of churches that have their pastors stand in front of the congregation and tell them that if they do not vote a certain way that they will burn in hell has not been called into question. If my priest ever told me how to vote on any issue, I would have to tell him to worry about my soul, and leave politics out of the pulpit.

[ladjf]

13. That's one of the great questions. Where are the real Christians?

Why aren't they outraged that their faith has been criminally hijacked by greedy, vicious thugs?

[DanCa]

19. I have been trying to rally all the left to protest and picket the fundies

I can't do it myself. we need to organize and act as one voice against the right to be an effect force.

[ladjf]

23. It's the preachers who should be talking about this from the

pulpits. But, for the most part, they are remaining silent for reasons unknown to me.

[DanCa]

25. There's an old saying my friend where money lies honor dies.

And than when something good happens like the uu comericials and my church appointing a gay bishop - the fundies have the wealth and numbers to drown it out any progress made by us liberals.

[ladjf]

26. True and it goes back to the ancient human-animal trait

of greed. Fundamentally, greed is a survival technique, useful in many primitive settings. However, in the modern context of life, greed, whether individual or group, will lead to extermination rather than survival. The human race either learns this or dies.

[shrike]

27. trouble is, you can't have it both ways

If they're not supposed to talk about politics, they're not supposed to talk about politics. Period. And I think that's a good thing. If they want to be tax-exempt, they've got to stay neutral. (And those churches should have their privileges yanked, IMO.) That doesn't mean they can talk about OUR issues, and not the other side's.
They CAN talk about things like hypocrisy, greed, etc., and the good ones do. My pastor (I'm Catholic) gave a fantastic sermon not long ago.

Why do people worry about others' souls and not their own? Why do people complain about tank tops in church (he'd just gotten a complaint), when people are dying in wars and starving to death?

No Christian, he concluded, has the right to decide who will go to heaven and who will not. And that goes for any creed, any nationality, any race. We all knew what he was talking about.

The closest thing he ever got to specifics was the Left Behind series. He gets so tired, he says, of those who worry about the end of the world. No one knows when it will happen, so let's concentrate on being better people and making the world a better place.
Of course, there are those who say they know when the end will come. "And we all know who those people are," he said.

[DanCa]

28. If it were all even and neutral i'd agree with you.

The communion rail and the pulpit shouldn't be a place for politics ideally. But since the right have broken this rule what do we do? We can't lie back and be complacent any more.

[shrike]

30. True, but ...

There are ways to dissent outside the pulpit. The church is no place for a pissing contest, if you excuse the expression.

[realisticphish]

24. Wow!

as a christian, i never before realized that fundamentalists have hijacked a faith of peace and love and turned into the tool of hate! holy crap! Thank GOD you were here!
DERP!

[ladjf]

31. My sense is that your response to my remarks were sarcastic.

If so, why? Were my comments offensive to you?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

3. I attended an English-language service in Kyoto

and we used the same readings. This was a service attended by expatriates from several countries, and you could see the knowing smiles passed back and forth during the reading from the book of Micah about "false prophets for hire."

They had a "dialogue sermon," in which the members of the congregation discuss the passage after the priest throws out a few thoughts, and yes, contemporary politics came up. :-)

[DanCa]

5. Father Risk mentioned something like this during the schiavo fiasoc

he said that who come congress can give health care to schiavo and let the rest of us go without insurance. Than he went off about automatic weapons, and how Iraq was wrong. people were just floored.

[Liberal Dose]

6. Put on your tin foil halo, but I totally believe that

there is some truth to the Christian prophecy of Revelations just as there is truth to the Hopi and Ojibwe prophecies from 700 years ago. For example, one Ojibwe prophecy says that the eagle will land on the moon. 700 years ago, how could someone have possibly envisioned, "Houston, the Eagle has landed." But I digress. Bush fits the description of the antichrist that I and millions of others have been taught to identify and oppose since childhood. It seems that some of us have not done such a good job. My mother (rest her soul) always said that the sea in Revelations was the sea of politics. <cough> I'm just saying... :hi:

[classof56]

8. I had not heard that take about the sea in Revelation.

Your mother was very perceptive! My mother (rest her soul) strongly believed in the Rapture but in 96 years did not live to see it. I no longer believe the Rapture will happen (it's a stretch to think it's biblical, IMHO) but I do believe in Christ's Second Coming. Not sure how it fits in with the other biblical prophecies, but I know it will happen. I personally think the tribulation happened in the first century A.D. but won't put money on that. As for antichrist, I agree with you--Bush seems to fit the bill and must be opposed by everyone.

Blessings!

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[classof56]

10. Hmmm...you give new meaning to "Go Ask Alice."

Get some rest and if you want to share what your subject line means, you'll get one more post.

Blessings.

[RayOfHope]

16. Did I miss a troll? And in my second thread, too. n/t

[Agnomen]

9. I don't wander into church services very often

but last time I attended one, in August, during the prayers of the people, when congregants speak up their requests, one man said "and let us pray for Cindy Sheehan and the good work she is doing". There were joyful smiles on the faces of the worshippers as they bowed their heads to pray for Cindy.

[classof56]

11. Wow. If I could find a church like that I might start going again.

Lucky you!

Tired Old Cynic

[pacalo]

12. May I ask a nosy question about your pastor?

Are his initials L.P., by any chance? I have a first cousin who is a Methodist preacher near the Missouri state line & your description sounds like him.

[RayOfHope]

15. Nope, not him

But it's nice to know there is another in the ranks, especially here in a red state! One of my good friends is a woman with a daughter in law who is a very liberal Methodist minister

[the observationist]

17. Re: church

If I could find a church that taught the truth rather than right wing principles I would also consider going back. Unfortunately I live in red state and all the churches I know of here are extensions of the Republican party.

[Arugula Latte]

22. Welcome to DU, observationist!

:hi: :toast:

[RevCheesehead]

29. Hi, observationist

Do you know about First United Methodist of Omaha? Jimmy Creech was the pastor there who performed a gay marriage ceremony (and had his credentials revoked). My understanding was that his congregation was very supportive of him. Chances are, they're still very liberal.

You might want to check out their website: http://www.fumcomaha.org/

Here's their vision/focus statement: http://www.fumcomaha.org/vision_statement.html

[Cleita]

18. You should have known. The Bushes of Connecticut are

not Texas ranchers even if * bought one for his photo ops.

[RayOfHope]

20. I know. But one must always have hope! n/t

[No Exit]

32. LOL, you should've known it wasn't about Dumbya!

If it were about Dumbya, it would have had to begin with: "There was a rich man's son born in Connecticut..."