It takes faith to believe in evolution.

[obxhead]

This was a recent headline editorial in my local paper. Anyone have any ammo for/against?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

1. It doesn't.

Faith is required for things you can't observe. You can observe evolution to an extent.

[obxhead]

4. Yes, I agree.

I need ammo for a good reply though.

[LostInAnomie]

14. Exactly. Micro evolution has been proven in countless experiments.

The problem is that the fundies do not accept micro evolution as proof, mostly because they refuse to.

Scientific proof will never be enough for them because they will always continue to move the goal posts.

[neebob]

34. I've observed evolution in my lifetime.

People are getting taller.

[deadparrot]

2. It takes faith in science.

Obviously, humans weren't around hundreds of millions of years ago to record what happened. But we choose to trust years of scientific research and techniques, along with fossils, etc., that all point to evolution as it is currently defined.

[Baconfoot]

3. I don't understand. I thought we already fought the enlightment?

:shrug:

[obxhead]

5. Yeah right.

That's why the "religious right" has so much power now.

[Baconfoot]

7. Exactly. To arms against authority as the sole truth criterion! NT

[Trajan]

6. Nonsense ....

Belief in Evolution is a 'reasonable' conclusion based on known evidence .... it is founded on empirical data, not 'invisible' entities, or speculations about deities ....

It is always easy to play such word games by claiming belief in ANYTHING comes through 'faith' that something or another is 'real' ... Questions surrounding the nature of knowledge, and how we acquire it, or how we assimilate it, can lead to confusion about what 'belief' means, and what 'faith' means ... It is that confusion that is exploited, fallaciously, in order to purposely misdirect the arguments ....

I have no 'faith' whatsoever ... I have a set of beliefs based on physical, a posteriori information .... Those beliefs can be changed as information changes .... Evolution is a reasoned conclusion based on the state of the physical evidence: not a baseless presumption based on wishful thinking or the desire to reach an specific conclusion that fits into a predetermined agenda .... IF the evidence leads AWAY from evolution, then I will conclude it isnt a reasonable explanation of the 'REAL' nature of things ...

[obxhead]

8. Great answer. I'll have to incorporate some of this into my

reply LTTE.

[parasim]

9. No, it doesn't.

It takes faith to believe that evolution can be controlled.

Whether or not evolution can be proven is of no concern to me. My fear is that our species is evolving into the lady with her fingers in her ears.

[obxhead]

10. Evolution will not end there.

society may try to drive it to that point, but evolution will turn away from it.

[parasim]

12. Well...

With that logic then I would expect mankind to evolve into beings that don't kill each other. Doesn't seem like we're evolving away from war.

[obxhead]

13. OK I see your point

yet it seems vague...

[LostInAnomie]

15. I wouldn't say that we are evolving away from war.

Culturally we may be headed in the direction to where people are less likely to become engaged in one (although that may not be completely true). This is probably to do with the fact that wars are far more destructive now and people have much more to lose because of them.

[izzie]

19. People do seem to like things that go bump in the night

Reason must be dull to them. I know people who really get into those odd things. But then have you seen all the people taking pills from doctors to get them through the day? Scary.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

17. I am with you. I don't know if you believe in God, but I do and

science to me is proof of God! I have never had a conflict between science or God, because both can exist, just not at either extreme!

[Vickers]

23. "It takes faith to believe that evolution can be controlled."

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[LostInAnomie]

11. No faith needed.

The belief in evolution comes from the induction of certain facts and understanding the natural extension of those facts.

If I were to drop a bowling ball directly over my foot I know through my knowledge of the law of gravity and through my own observations that if I do not move my foot it will be struck by the ball. There is no faith needed. I do not need to have faith that the ball will continue to fall or faith that it will continue to fall in a straight line. It will do both these things because of the laws that govern the physical world.

The same is true of evolution. If a physical trait allows an organism to have a higher rate of survival than the same organism without the physical trait it does not take faith to see that the organism with the trait is more likely to survive and mate. This not only insures that the physical trait will be passed on but that the other organisms genes will not.

Just as the law of gravity governed the first scenario simple statistics and biology governed the second. It didn't take faith to understand the outcomes it just took simple induction of facts.

[depakid]

16. Actually it takes a belief in Time

as in large amounts of time.

Even very slight changes that confer very slight advantages over long periods of time can result in pretty radical differentiation.

If the math is too hard for people to get, then simpler analogies like a roulette wheel (or dice) sometimes work.

Spin a roulette wheel once or twice even ten times, and your odds of coming out at least even with the house are pretty good.

Spin that wheel 1,000 or 10,000 times, and because of those two little green numbers 0 and 00, the house is going to take all your money.

Doesn't take much faith to see that!

[TheGunslinger]

18. Wow. It's exact OPPOSITE! Evolution itself is a FACT! A F-A-C-T!!

It's the THEORY of Evolution that is at the center of debate. The right-wing fuckwads keep distorting that fact, though.

[Warren DeMontague]

30. It takes FAITH to believe in FACTS! n/t

[Robert Cooper]

20. It takes "faith" to "believe" anything ;-)

It's a set-up, Obxhead. "Faith" and "Belief" are synonymous. You can't refute such a statement. It takes "faith" to "believe" we weren't just created five minutes ago with a full set of memories ;-)

The question revolves around what is easier to believe, and this depends upon the cultural background and personal experiences of each reader.

I just love it when newspapers throw out existential stuff to give themselves something to say.

You might try this essay:
http://www.opinioneditorials.com/freedomwriters/rcooper_20051005.html

It might give you ammunition regarding some of the alternatives to evolution that people can believe in ;-)

[obxhead]

21. Thanks Robert Cooper

and a big welcome to DU extended to you! :hi:

[Robert Cooper]

28. Glad to help

and thanks :-)

[seabeyond]

22. i couldnt agree more. and...... i have never heard it so well stated

this is just excellent. talking to fundie friend yesterday about the christian school we both went to........i told her, her religion is lacking faith and i will not participate or honor that fear and lack of faith. they do it in so many ways. this is a perfect example. i have told all my educated old creationist people, i will not honor the this universe is 6009 years old. that is not truth. i assure you you dont have to lie to protect god. that should be a clue in. lacking faith to have to boldly lie and teach children a lie to get people to believe in bible or god

good stuff. thanks

[Robert Cooper]

29. I seem to recall

that there was a commandment about bearing false witness. It is interesting reading the denials, refuted wth video tape no less, of the Dover board that voted for creationis...er...ID ;-)

I don't think this is about religion anymore, or that commandment would be of more value to them. It's politics, pure and simple. It's the old story of demagogues using religion to steer the religiously vulnerable.

[KittyWampus]

24. Very Easy. There is abundant physical evidence PROVING Evolution

there is NOT, however, abundant physical evidence proving Evolution occurs due random chance or that phyiscal matter can give rise to Consciousness.

[Ediacara]

32. Actually, yes there is

If by "random chance" you mean "stochistic nature of mutation," there is simply no way around that. Mutation is purely stochastic.

If you mean to replace "natural selection" with "random chance," then you're constructing a strawman (and you and I have debated this enough, you know what you're doing). Natural Selection is not random, no one suggests it is, and you know that. On the other hand, there is absolutely ZERO data suggesting that anything like the invisible hand of God guides selection pressures (and you know this also), and if that bothers you, too bad.

[JNelson6563]

25. Even creationists cede the point on evolution

I'd wager due to the growing mountains of evidence to support it. They are now agreeing, ok, evolution took place but bible-god did it!

:toast: Julie

[obxhead]

27. yeah, I've been hearing some of that too.

[Swamp Rat]

26. It takes faith to believe that George W. Bush is not the Anti-Christ...

:)

[Ediacara]

31. The only faith you need is faith in your eyes

Evolution is observable and has been observed. If you choose not to believe that, then get thee to the optometrist.

[Zhade]

33. It takes faith to accept a demonstrated fact?

Wow, maybe most Americans really ARE stupid, if they think that.

[Robert Cooper]

35. How many new species...

have been witnessed in the process of being created?

Mutation occurs in the parent and doesn't manifest itself until the birth of progeny. To date there's been no actual witnessing of the creation of a new species. It has been inferred from the geological record (and don't get me wrong, I support that interpretation) but the truth is many aspects of the -theory- have yet to be demonstrated.

But to answer your question: yes, it takes faith to believe your senses do not deceive you, that you are aware of all the variables affecting the resulting experience and you've accounted for all of them, etc. Consider those who hallucinate or witness convincing mirages.

It takes an act of faith to doubt your senses. Ergo, it takes an act of faith to believe in them.

[Ediacara]

37. You are wrong

Speciation has been observed, and in many cases it has been observed within human lifetimes.

[Robert Cooper]

38. Name of the species?

I would certainly like to know the name of the new species as well as the species of the parents?

[Ediacara]

39. short list

Auffenberg, W and W W Milstead. 1965. Reptiles in the Quaternary of North America. In: Wright, H E and D G Frey (eds.), The Quaternary of the United States. Princeton, NJ, Princeton University Press, Pp. 557-568.

Beadle, S C. 1991. The biogeography of origin and radiation: Dendrasterid sand dollars in the northeastern Pacific. Paleobiology 17: 325-339.

Cheetham, A H. 1986. Tempo of evolution in a Neogene bryozoan: Rates of morphological change within and across species boundaries. Paleobiology 12: 190-202.

Greenwood, P H. 1965. The cichlid fishes of Lake Nabugabo, Uganda. British Museum of Natural History Bulletin (Zoology) 12: 315-357.

Greenwood, P H. 1974. The cichlid fishes of Lake Victoria, East Africa: The biology and evolution of a species flock. British Museum (Natural History) Bulletin, Suppliment 6: 1-134.

Johnson, M W. 1953. The copepod Cyclops dimorphys Kiefer from the Salton Sea. American Midland Naturalist 49: 188-192.

Johnson, T C, C A Scholz, M R Talbot, K Kelts, R D Ricketts, G Ngobi, I S Beuning, and J W McGill. 1996. Late Pleistocene desiccation of Lake Victoria and rapid evolution of cichlid fishes. Science 273: 1091-1093.

Miller, R R. 1950. Speciation of fishes in the genera Cyprinodon and Empertrichthys inhabiting the Death Valley region. Evolution 4: 155-163.

Miller, R R. 1961. Speciation rates in some fresh-water fishes of western North America. In: Blair, W F (ed.) Vertebrate Speciation. Austin, TX. University of Texas Press, Pp. 537-560.

Trawavas, E, J Green, and S A Corbet. 1972. Ecological studies on crater lakes in West Cameroon Fishes of Barombi Mbo. Journal of Zoology 167: 41-95.

Zimmerman, E C. 1960. Possible evidence of rapid evolution in Hawaiian moths. Evolution 14: 137-138.

[greyl]

40. Here's a few:

Oenothera gigas from Oenothera lamarckiana
Primula kewensis from Primula verticillata
Stephanomeira malheurensis from Stephanomeira exigua

There are many, many others.
One source:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

[Robert Cooper]

42. My apologies and thanks

Thanks for the link, Greyl. I've visited the talk.origins site several times over the years (even have it bookmarked) but failed to notice that page.

And thanks Dinoboy. That's an extensive list of material (and I doubt the library in this town of 2000 has any of them) and I suspect they cover at least some of the examples at the talk.origins site.

Apparently my knowledge is out of date on this issue. It was not my intent to spread erroneous information. For that I apologize.

Now I'm wondering what's left of the theory to prove.

[obxhead]

36. Late kick

I want some more views for a good reply LTTE.

[Thom Little]

41. It takes faith to attack evolution for no reason