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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 09:45 PM
Original message
Do you remember what things were like during * sr's term in WH?
Edited on Fri Oct-28-05 09:46 PM by bliss_eternal
Were liberals/progressives that you knew depressed about the state of the world? Were you? Was it as bad as it is now?

Did anyone have any hope or idea that things would turn around the way they did?

Seriously would love to hear from people on this. I was a teen at the time. Sadly I did all I could to ignore * sr. when he was on tv (hated him), and pretty much buried my head in the sand politically. So, I'm curious as to how people felt then--Were people hopeful or hopeless?

Thanks!
bliss_e.
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spindrifter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm always depressed when there's
a Reep in the WH. My optimism comes from believing that we will always throw the rascals out.
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. I share your depression
when I see them elected. Nothing does more to give me the blues, frankly...

:(
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Brundle_Fly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. you have to remember we'd
Edited on Fri Oct-28-05 09:53 PM by Brundle_Fly
Just had 8 years of Reagan at the time.

Bush Sr. was a prick and a doorknob who sometimes puked on other world leaders, but it was nothing like these bunch of bozos.

Hopeless no, but we'd been beaten up for ages....

::: -= edit to blame clinton, for instilling such hope. =- :::
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. I recall that much--
the raygun years were rough with a capital 'R.' I honestly didn't think we'd EVER get a dem in office again--it seemed Clinton came out of nowhere...

I appreciated your edit to blame Clinton. LOL! ;)
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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. I did not worry as much then
Economy was bad but looked fixable (it was).
Momentum was moving left.
Democrats were not especially progressive, but contolling Congress kept things a bit more in check.
Cold war was winding down - after living with threat of nuclear annihilation all my life, that was a plus.
Bush Sr. did not have Reagan's teflon. He wasn't very smart, but compare to Jr...
Media still showed some independence, but without the internet it was harder to get a fraction of the info available now.



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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. Do you feel
that things are much worse now?

While things seem worse in ways to me now--I am very grateful for the internet and also seeing so many grassroots progressive movements popping up--that encourages me in...

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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. It's worse now in every way
The really sad thing is that we were really close to a very long term era of prosperity and peace. The late 90's were not fluke, but Jr. has ruined that opportunity for at least a generation.
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. I just don't understand...
I mean they all seem to care so much about money--why were they so angry about the clinton years? Everyone had more money. What was the damn problem?

When I hear people say,"...after clinton, I became a republican..." I just think that's sounds so insane. What was so horrible?
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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. There two groups
For the rich republicans, it's not how rich you are, it's how MUCH richer you are. To them, prosperity means having to pay higher wages and benefits. If we were slaves, they would complain about how much they have to spend on rations.

The poor republicans don't get the economic issues, they are freaked out about fear, sex, religion and guns.
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Ok--I think the poor ones
are waaaay more confusing. The ones that vote against their own interests, but get all fired up because gays can't get married and mexicans (or middle easterners, blacks, poor people, etc.) can't live in their neighborhood...

:wtf:

Dumb asses!
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. What's the Matter with Kansas
it will answer many, MANY of your questions
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. Thank you for the recommendation!
A reminder actually. Someone else here, mentioned that to me before--now that I am hearing the title again, it jogged my memory.

Must get book... :hi:
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Brundle_Fly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #26
39. there real problem...
was clinton was more of a republican than anyone in the white house now.

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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. A lot of us were depressed. It looked after '88 like the Dems might never
win the WH again. This had a lot to do with the DLC getting to take over the party and drive activists and progressives out of it.

Some of us, those who had been Jesse Jackson people, felt betrayed that Jesse demobbed the Rainbow Coalition. After the '88 campaign, Jesse had a progressive "people's army"(perhaps the "Gideon's Army" that Henry Wallace had spoken of creating)that could have been the base of a clear challenge to the right, but Jesse just dispersed it and settled for being nothing more than the White House marriage counselor during the Monica nightmare.

Those who had been Sandinista sympathizers(and I plead guilty to that)were further demoralized when the Nicaraguan people were forced to surrender and elect the UNO coalition in 1990. The Nicaraguan situation also made it harder for people like us to be enthusiastic Clinton supporters in '92, since Billary had allowed Contra training camps to be set up in Arkansas.

Seeing the people's revolt against Stalinism in Eastern Europe twisted into being a fight for right-wing capitalism(which was not the intent of the rebels in those countries when they started, in most cases)didn't help matters either.

So yeah, that was a sucky time, in some ways worse than now, if you can imagine that.
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Wow--reading your post
I feel like I really missed a lot that was going on! It does seem that in some ways, things were, or at least would seem, darker then.

Thank you for the informative post!

Did any of this play a rold in poppy bush's war, prior to the clinton admin.?
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xray s Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. yes it was
Edited on Fri Oct-28-05 10:13 PM by xray s
Bush Sr let Hussein invade Kuwait, then killed 100,000 Iraqis in a week to kick them out.

Then he let Hussein slaughter Shi'ites that tried to overthrow Hussein after the war. He told our troops to stand down and let Hussein's helecopter gunships fly.

Evil. Fucking. Bastards.

Each and every one of them.





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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. Kuwait and dessert storm...
I was really depressed then...

Getting stuck with jr. in 2000, I knew it was a matter of time before he took this country to war-- that family loves war. :eyes:
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
6. I was in my twenties at the time, so I remember it pretty well.
I absolutely detested Poppy, but it wasn't anything like the way it is with Jr., at least not to me. As much as I despised him, I felt that he was at least marginally competent, and was not bent on the total destruction of this country.

I've never experienced anything like Jr. in my life, and I was thrown into a two year long episode of severe depression, just from coming to realize how truly aweful he was.

I was grateful as hell to be rid of Poppy, but I never felt the kind of desparation about it that I did about the son.

I'm speaking only for myself. I don't know how other people feel about that time. The divisions in this country didn't seem nearly as bad back then, and I at least felt like this country still stood on a solid foundation and that a bad presidency would pass, and the country would survive more or less intact. Not with Jr.
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. I appreciate your post--
Crunchy Frog--and I relate to your feelings of hopelessness with this admin. :hug:

I hope that we are both wrong, and that there is a 'turning' that could still come along and make things some better for us all...

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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
7. We were horrified at George No New Taxes Bush's TV war
But I think Mr. New World Order faded into obscurity after Magic Johnson's admission of AIDS was made.
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #7
20. Oh yeah--
that was a pretty big moment, wasn't it?

I've never seen so many grown men be so upset in my life. Seriously. That was really sad...
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Yeah, that admission really brought AIDS closer to home
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
9. I remember. The economy was down the drain. Things were not looking
Edited on Fri Oct-28-05 10:05 PM by 1monster
good for middle income people. Junk bonds bought, sold, and traded during the eighties came to their natural fruition of disaster for both issuers and holders.

Jobs were scarce, which allowed employers to break wage/hour laws with impunity ("You wanna make something of it? Go ahead. Let's see how fast you can get another job.")

But the standing of the U.S. in the world wasn't nearly so dire as it is now. Poppy Bush had sufficient diplomacy (or at least enough dirt on other world leader) to keep most of the world's other nations simpatico.

Bush also kept his violations of the sovereignty of other countries (such as his devastating invasion of Panama to arrest Noriega) very brief. The first Gulf War against Iraq on the ground lasted only a matter of days. The air assult started about a month before.
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
22. The economy
was in the dumper for sure! I don't recall if it was raygun's term or poppy bush when the housing bubble burst here in california. I had never seen anything like that!!! So many foreclosures and people losing their homes AND JOBS!

Just heartbreaking...

I agree, jr. is much more of an ass than the father. Hard for me to say, because I think sr. is a HUGE piece of scum.
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Syncronaut Seven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. October surprise, Iran Contra, gulf war 1
I was painfully aware of each transgression. Bush 1, Reagan, I looked at them all as of the same cloth, Evil, criminal.

Then, now, forever, Nothing will reedem these foul creatures in my mind.

Republicans in power sap the host body (America) untill her blood no longer flows. Lifeless, cold, dead, mutilated, beaten and raped. This is the bush legacy.

Those were the good old days Depressed? perhaps. Compared to suicidal, I would gladly welcome back the days of merely depressed.

In a cocaine heartbeat.
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. It took me
truly becoming an adult and living on my own to see the differences in terms of how each admin (dem vs. repub), affects one's life.

The difference is/was staggering...

You're right--all cut from the same cloth. Evil to the core.
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NeoConsSuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
12. To me it was similar
Same war crimes in Iraq, same economy swirling around the toilet, an administration infested with neocons.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. But not a Republican controlled Congress
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
31. Close enough. Republican and Southern Dem controlled.
The conservatives held Congress, even if some were called Dems.
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. I hear ya'...
I'm just hoping that maybe there is hope that we will come bounce back from all of this eventually...

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spacelady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
17. My fiance & I had just bought our first home together, we got married on
Edited on Fri Oct-28-05 10:14 PM by spacelady
Oct. 12, 1991--we vowed together that we would LEAVE the USA if Bush senior got re-elected. You all know what transpired. We moved from Nebraska to Arkansas in 1992, lived there until 1995, then moved to South Alabama. When Chimpy STOLE the 2000 election, we were appalled, but did not want to SECEDE to such an idiot. We are still together & still want our country BACK!

Edit for spelling.

2nd edit: I HAVE NEVER BEEN MORE DEPRESSED AND PISSED IN MY ENTIRE LIFE AND YES I AM YELLING!!!
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. Hi spacelady--
:hi: Always a pleasure to see you...

I don't blame you one bit for yelling. How can anyone not yell about what these ass clowns have done to our country and the world?

I'm sorry that you guys didn't leave the country--at least you may have been somewhere where EVERYONE agreed with you about the USA's president...

Happy to have you here with us, sorry you aren't somewhere else--happier. :(
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spacelady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Hi bliss_ eternal, yeah we seem to respond to similar subjects sometimes.
I enjoy reading your point of view, are you trying to get rid of me?
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Absolutely NOT!
LOL! I just feel sad when I hear someone could have been somewhere other than here and they stayed here (because they had hope) and got screwed...

I'd like to think good people could have a good life and not suffer through this bullshit.

I enjoy reading your perpectives, too! :hug:
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spacelady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:39 PM
Original message
Thanx bliss_eternal, we did not move because when the sun sets...
we still love our country and we want it back. Hugs to you!
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
33. Anytime--
I'm honestly happy you stayed to fight this out with us. We need all the people that give a damn that we can get!

Hugs to you as well, spacelady!

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spacelady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. You make me feel better, thanks. n/t
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
30. It was much worse. Not sure why people remember it as better
The president and the previous president were under investigation for treason. They had sold weapons to a nation that had declared war on us and was launching terrorist attacks on us. They were illegally funding other terrorists in Central and South America, and were causing the deaths of tens of thousands of people. And the media ignored the crimes, and the Congress (controlled by conservatives, though it was a coalition of Republicans and southern Democrats) seemed to not care at first.

There was one criminal scandal after another. Bush/Reagan had defrauded billions from the government. Departments like HUD were controlled by Reagan/Bush cronies with no management skills, and were funneling funds and jobs to buddies. Military spending had no oversight. Each time someone was caught they were replaced with more cronies.

There were more investigations, indictments and convictions of administration officials under Reagan than under any other president.

The deficit was the largest in human history. People believed we'd never recover. Wages were low, and falling. The poverty line was over 15%. We believed we would be the first generation to live worse off than our parents since the Depression.

The homeless problem we take for granted blossomed under Reagan. The educational system collapse began with Reagan's spending cuts. Reagan cut drug rehab spending and the drug problem exploded. Reagan cut federal crime prevention assistance and the crime rate exploded. The murder rate in New York City alone was higher than in most other nations.

Reagan won his first election by stealing Carter's campaign notes and making Carter look bad during the debates. There was also a possible deal with Iran to hold 50 American hostages until after the election, after Carter had negotiated their release. The so-called "October Surprise" seems even more suspicious considering Reagan's treatment of Iran throughout his administration. He sold weapons to them, secretely, even though they had declared war on us. He shielded them from accusations of terrorism against us when the rest of the world accused them. He blamed Libya for Iran's actions, and bombed Libya, leading to an increase in the number of terrorist attacks, including the Pan Am flight exploded over Scotland.

When Bush took over, he had to prove he was tough, to shake his "wimp" nickname that Nancy had given him. So he invaded Panama in the dead of the night. He bombed the poorest section of the city, setting fire to apartments and houses as people slept. Estimates are that 4000 people died in the invasion to arrest Noriega, but Bush claimed it was 200, and the media parroted that number until people had stopped caring. The attack succeeded so well in raising Bush's tough-guy image that he provoked a war in Iraq, and killed an estimated 250,000 people to take Kuwait from the Iraqi dictators and give it back to the Kuwaiti royal family, which was just as bad.

Bush Daddy lied all the time, and the media repeated his lies. They boosted his approval rating into the high 80s.

Halfway through HW's term, though, it was just too much. The economy was sinking and everyone knew it. Bush was spending and trying to cut taxes. Everyone knew the deficit was larger than he claimed. Bush had no idea what to do. He told everyone there was no recession, because he beleived that recessions were caused by people not spending. It was our fault, in other words. His last SOTU address was stunning. He claimed there was no recession, that the economy was growing and solid. He announced a series of spending plans that he had stolen directly from candidate Bill Clinton's speeches. After the speech he was praised by Charles Rangel, who asked when he had switched parties.

Bush never acted on one of his SOTU promises. A few months later he was asked about them, and point blank said he had never intended to carry through on any of them. He had just said all that to make people quit worrying, so they would start spending again and end the recession. He truly could not imagine how government could effect the economy at all.

The economy by then had turned around, but not because of Bush. Congress had simply refused to listen to him. They ignored what Bush wanted and passed bipartisan legislation to keep America afloat. Bush vetoed just about everything, and they over-rode his vetoes. Bush still holds the record for the most over-ridden vetoes of any president.

So yeah, things were bad. I think they were worse. The media, the corruption, the scandals, the slaughter of other peoples, the detachment from reality, the poverty--everything was worse under Bush. The only thing that was better was Congress. They worked together for the good of the nation as a separate branch of government, rather than rubberstamping Bush's attempts to drive the nation to Hell.

One reason I hate Nader so vehemently, maybe as much as I hate Bush, is because he stole Clinton's revolution. The nation was just as conservative under Bush Daddy. Clinton's triangulation strategy won the election from a president with 70% approval ratings when he started campaigning. Clinton tried to govern as a liberal, but was ambushed by the souther Dems, led by Sam Nunn (the original Zell). After that, he became a moderate, realizing he would have to work with the Repubs to accomplish anything. He moved the nation slowly, very slowly, away from the right, so that were just about in the center by the time he left office. Gore was to be the payoff. Gore was supposed to finish what Clinton had started (and what many of us had worked for), moving us over that center line and further to the left.

Then fucking Nader, using Republican money, ambushed us. He's as guilty as Bush for every drop of blood shed in Iraq, Afghanistan, and New Orleans, if you ask me.

Sorry so long. As a former historian, I like to keep things in perspective. And I believe the media has made Reagan and Bush Daddy appear more benign than they were, so that W seems worse. In ten years, W will be revamped to look like a saint, unless we attack not only W, but the mechanism the right has used to make their past atrocities less disgusting. Reagan and Bush should be exposed, so that they can't revamp W the same way. Or else we'll go through this all again in another decade, if there is still an America to go through it for.
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spacelady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. I agree, it WAS much worse, but not as hopeless. n/t
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-29-05 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. It FELT as hopeless then. If anything, I'm more optimistic we can recover
if we start winning in 2006.
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. Please, don't apologize--
I enjoyed reading this so much!! I'm an information junkie, one of the reasons I spend WAY too much time here reading. LOL!

I recalled some of what you detailed--Reagan's many cuts. Specifically the one to mental health facilities that created much of are country's homeless population.

Unfortunately I wasn't in tune enough to realize that the media then was giving a national 'snow job' to the masses. That pisses me off!

I know that when ray gun died, I was rather shocked by all the 'fawning' over him the media did, as if he were some sort of saint. Having grown up and lived in an area that was hit VERY HARD by what he did (the middle class), I see him in a whole other light.

Anyway, I could go on and on--thanks so much for providing another perspective on the way things are today.

I had no clue about Nader--that was enlightening!
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stillrockin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
35. Well, in a word, yes.
Back then we looked down on 41, thought he was a nitwit. Boy, we had NO idea what his son would inflict upon the world. He looks like a bleedin' genius now. I remember during Reagan's time hearing *sr. talk about being "out of the loop". The press didn't do didley then either. That said, things are MUCH worse now. The cabal in the WH is full a people considered too extreme by the nut cases from 41's term. Their party has been appropriated by the American Taliban because they need their votes to stay in power. This president is stupid, willful, full of hate and anger. His father was capable at least of measured thought and considered situations from other points of view. This guy is a bully, incapable of hearing opposing views. He is much more dangerous. We really need to clean house.
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