How open is Kerry to the "no moral center" attack?

[kaitykaity]

(I'm not trying to be flamey here. Yes, I'm a Dean
supporter, and yes, I thought Dean would win both of
the two opening contests.)

I will support Kerry if and when he gets the nomination
nod. So I don't want to hear that I'll support Bush if
my guy doesn't win.

From the beginning, Kerry has always seemed like a was
a little bit of a 'wack-a-mole'. What I mean by that is
that Kerry never takes a controversial stand. In 1991,
he voted against the Gulf War because that was popular.
In 2002, he voted for Gulf War II because it was popular.

It was only after Howard Dean found the fire of the party
faithful and took the fire from the ClearChannel wackos
and the patriotism police did Kerry decide it was safe
to be 'anti' war.

Again, I'm not trying to be flamey. I'm genuinely
confused as to how this guy could be seen as 'electable',
given what the Thugs will do to him for being a
'I'll stick my head out when it's safe' candidate.

[Uzybone]

1. apart from the war votes

what other examples do you have?

[kaitykaity]

5. USA PATRIOT Act, the tax cuts,

on top of the war votes.

The war votes are enough to establish the
pattern, though.

[blm]

10. You're wrong. Kerry didn't vote for the taxcuts and

Dean SUGGESTED a Patriot Act a few days after 9-11 and "tended to agree" with Bush on TIPS, too, back in July 2002 MTP interview.

Also, Dean was one of the Dems propping up Bush's "leadership" publically while Kerry was attacking Bush throughout 2002..


Kerry Shows Courage In Challenging Bush
Thursday, August 8, 2002 By: Joe Conason

New York Observer

>>>>>>
But it was John Kerry who delivered the most interesting, substantive and challenging message. His subject was George W. Bush's shortcomings as a world leader.
The New York Times reported that Mr. Kerry "offered a long attack on Mr. Bush's foreign policy," although the paper gave short shrift to the details in the Senator''s speech. What he began to articulate was a Democratic critique of this administration''s blunt and myopic unilateralism, and a vision that restores international alliances to the center of American diplomacy.

He agrees with the objective of removing Saddam Hussein, but objected to the vague plans for what will replace the Iraqi dictatorship. He called the latest arms treaty with Russia a "cosmetic" one that inadequately safeguards decommissioned weapons. He denounced the "Cold War" approach to North Korea that has undone the progress achieved by the Clinton administration. He expressed scorn for the administration''s disengagement from the Middle East crisis before Sept. 11.


>>>>>>>>
There is, however, at least one benefit for Mr. Kerry in speaking out on those faraway places and problems. While his rivals sound as if they''re campaigning for the offices they already occupy, he sounds as if he is running for President.

In a sense, Mr. Kerry enjoys an unfair advantage that mitigates the burden of his home state. He''s a decorated Vietnam veteran whose Navy service may help shield him from attacks on his patriotism. Throughout his years in the Senate, that credential has allowed him to investigate and criticize disturbing excesses of American policy abroad, as he did when he probed U.S. aid to the contra gangsters in Nicaragua. (That rather lonely crusade made him a target of the notorious Arkansas Project, funded by Republican billionaire Richard Mellon Scaife to bring down President Clinton.)

Whether Mr. Kerry can engage the electorate in a discussion of America''s global responsibilities is far from certain. His own dispassionate style may hinder him. Yet he deserves great credit for reclaiming international leadership for his party when others cannot or will not.

*********************************************

Here's your big hero after Russert shows clips of Kerry attacking Bush's leadership failures:

 MR. RUSSERT: Do you believe the military operation in Afghanistan has been successful?
       
       GOV. DEAN: Yes, I do, and I support the president in that military operation.
       
       MR. RUSSERT: The battle of Tora Bora was successful?
       
       GOV. DEAN: I’ve seen others criticize the president. I think it’s very easy to second-guess the
       commander-in-chief at a time of war. I don’t choose to engage in doing that.

[blm]

11. and the idea that he only does what is popular is ABSURD

Kerry was ostracized by most of Washington for his dogged investigations.

>>>>>
Kerry and the Iran-Contra Fight
Before the conventional wisdom sets in on Kerry as some kind of careful pol with no bite, folks should reach back and remember his role back in the 1980s in challenging the whole Reagan administration ties to money laundering, drug running and the Contras down in Central America. Kerry was willing for years to face down the CIA, the Justice Department and narco-terrorists in pursuing the dirty dealings of the Reagan-North network of rightwing drug-linked paramilitaries.

http://www.nathannewman.org/log/archives/000945.shtml

[sangh0]

16. the idea that he only does what is popular is ABSURD

Given the pursuit of illogic that's running rampant on DU, I fully expect a Kerry-hater to argue that Kerry's vote on PATRIOT and IWR was the popular thing to do.

[PVnRT]

23. Both were popular at the time

Despite the sentiment on DU, both measures were very popular at the time, right or wrong.

[sangh0]

29. That's not what Dean supporters say

I keep hearing about the millions of protestors who were ignored by their representatives in Congress. I'm happy to see at least uderstands the facts.

[lyonn]

69. Not a Kerry hater

The problem is he has poor judgment when it is critical. Going to war is critical. The day the Senate voted on whether to allow Bush to decide to go to war vs. the people (congress) was a very sad day for me. I knew my opinion could be wrong but had not heard anything from Bush & Co. to convince me to give him the ability on his own to get this country into a war.

[TLM]

55. Why keep claiming he did not.... when you can go to the senate.gov

site and see that Kerry did vote for the democrats' 350 billion version of Bush's 700 billion cut?

It did not pass, but Kerry did vote for it.

[sangh0]

62. Tell the truth

It wasn't a vote for the dems 350billion tax cut.

It was a vote to reduce Bush*'s 700billion tax cut

[Warpy]

6. A quick search of the web

...turned up a man who votes consistently with Ted Kennedy on social issues, gets high marks from the ACLU and Sierra Club, but is considerably more free-trade than Kennedy is, more probusiness. He's all for keeping tax cuts targeted toward the middle class from Bush's ruinous tax cut package, but has said nothing about putting a floor under the Alternative Minimum Tax, something these tax cuts will soon trigger for most tax payers.

I don't fault him for his vote on the Iraq war. Don't forget, this isn't the first administration that has touted the WMD issue. Clinton was fed the same load of crap from the same Pentagon insiders, and hearing it from two different and opposing party administrations must have been pretty convincing. Besides, he didn't have the leisure to go to the foreign press to find out what the weapons inspectors were saying; we did. He made the mistake of trusting not one but two administrations to report intelligence honestly. It's hard to see him trusting those agencies again without a big shakeup in both of them.

Kerry's a mixed bag, socially liberal while probusiness and fiscally conservative. He's not going to be all things to all people, but he cares about this country and that makes him better than Bush.

[HFishbine]

15. Bogus

"he didn't have the leisure to go to the foreign press to find out what the weapons inspectors were saying..."

He didn't have to. He could have read the book by Kucinich's new press secretary.

[sangh0]

18. Your argument is bogus

The CIA, Clinton, Gore, and a long list of others not connected to BFEE/SnB/PNAC/GOP/etc have for years believed that Saddam had WMD's for the simple reason that they knew that the US had sold them to Iraq.

If I had to choose between Clinton, Gore and Kerry's advice vs advice from DK's press secretary, I know who I'd be listening to.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

44. In all fairness to Clinton, he got his info on Saddam from the same

source....the 98(?) PNAC memo...and the Defense Policy Board...this was well covered on Frontline's series about the war ..I believe it was called the Path to War.

[JohnKleeb]

9. Hey join the club

DK and JK. :)
On the patriot act, I really find it convient for people who support non congressional candiates to attack Kerry over it, when their guy hasnt endorsed the Kucinich bill on it. If IWR and PA are your litmus tests, then I would back DK, heck even if those werent I would :).

[Tesha]

14. Kerry missed several important votes re: abortion...

Apart from the war votes, what other examples do you have?

Kerry missed several important votes with regard to abortion
because he was "too busy campaigning". Then again, perhaps
he did not want to be on record as either supporting or
opposing choice this close to a Presidential run.

Tesha

[drfemoe]

43. Edwards passed on both *partial birth* abortion

votes last year. I've yet to determine if he is pro-choice.

[bigtree]

47. Didn't he just recover from prostate cancer? I wonder

how many of these attacks for missed votes are taking into account the time it took to recover.

[Tesha]

57. No, the incidents I'm thinking about...

Didn't he just recover from prostate cancer? I wonder how many of
these attacks for missed votes are taking into account the time
it took to recover.

No, the incidents I'm thinking about were definitely times
when he was out campaigning, not recovering; I remember
calling his office and complaining about it.

Tesha

[bigtree]

60. Hey

Even the best candidates have missed votes while campaigning. We only hold it against the ones we don't support. Of course, some candidates have no legislative responsibility.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

2. Like Arlo says in Alice's restaurant:

"you want to know if I'm moral enough...."

[George_Bonanza]

3. Gulf War vote popular?

I'm pretty sure that most Americans supported H.W. Bush's Gulf War, as well as a large coalition of other nations, and Congress did as well. I seriously seriously doubt that the country and Congress were in a uproar about the Persian Gulf War.

If you want one of the biggest and most recent examples of Kerry's willingness to stand up amongst the minority, look up the DoMA of '96. He voted NO with only 14 other senators.

Kerry was the only major candidate that chose to be critical about Bush's botched Afghanistan job as it was happening. In TIME magazine, Kerry criticized Bush on his lack of environmentalism before the Iraq saga. Kerry fought against Bush's uncalled for ascension to the White House, even though 500 000 more people voted in Gore's favour (JFK won by only a 100 000 or so votes, so that's a big margin), by vigorously supporting Gore and dismissing thoughts of a personal run for presidency. Howard Dean took the mantle, but he was not the one and only to speak out. I guess people simply chose to listen to him. But the message was always there on C-Span and the New York Times.

[demon67]

25. Actually ...

the Senate was in an uproar about the Persian Gulf War (Iraq War I). In fact, the authorizing resolution passed by a single vote. The vast, vast majority of Democratic senators voted against the war authorization. Hence, Kerry's vote was, within his party and likely within his state, quite popular.

[oasis]

4. Kerry has done all of the boring hard work and horse trading that it took

for him to be in his present position.

Overall, he has served his country and his party well.

[murielm99]

7. The only thing I can think of is

that he said the eff word in Rolling Stone, and they want him to apologize for that. Big deal. It would have been unusual if he had NOT used the F word in a Rolling Stone interview.

They will make a big deal of it again, though, I am sure.

But the people who get upset about it will vote for shrub anyway.

[isbister]

8. There was no vote for Gulf War II

There was a vote for a resolution that granted the President the authority to use force in Iraq if the president met the specific conditions set out in the resolution. He did not. The republican controlled Congress covered for him then as they continue to do.

Kerry's held the same position throughout. Howard Dean and the corporate media have misled you on the IWR, Dean's and Kerry's position on it. Don't believe me, look it up for yourself.

They are also misleading about the fire Dean inspired, although you said it about right... Dean found and took "the fire". It was there, there's a lot of Americans that do not like bush and even more that do not like what he's doing to our country. Dean tapped into it.

Unfortunately, Dean chose to divide the party by shifting the blame for the war from bush to those that voted for the IWR for his own political gain. Using terms like "voted for war" about anyone other than bush was/is dishonest. He's read the resolution, could've chosen to frame the IWR correctly but didn't because he knew what the term would do. In Kerry's case, Dean needed to knock him off and Dean grouped Kerry in with the others by using the "voted for war" and "supported the war" lines. Dean spent enough time on the stump and knew Kerry was his main competition... he knew what Kerry's position and chose to misrepresent it.

Iowa and New Hampshire show that going negative isn't going to work. Look at what Dean did in New Hampshire. When he had his wife beside him and was positive he stopped the bleeding and climbed back into the race (Zogby had him getting as close as four points, within the MOE). As soon as he turned negative he dropped like a stone again... losing nine points in a matter of a day, day and a half. So far, it seems as if the Democratic voters are saying that this election is different. They are rejecting what has traditionally been successful, negative attacks, and look to be saying that tearing the party apart is not what they want. ABB, they need to get the worst President in the history of the United States out of office.

John Kerry is seen as 'electable' because of who he is, what he has done and his vision for America's future.

[NashVegas]

20. You're Absolutely Correct

It was not a vote on going to war with Iraq, rather it was a vote to give Bush the power to declare war, and therefore remove congress from having to face their constitutional responsibility for making the call to send us into war.

[isbister]

49. Read the resolution

http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/text/1010res.htm

Plus, bush didn't need the IWR to invade

[NashVegas]

50. Only Congress Can Declare War

"Authorize the use of force" is a cop-out. It always has been.

[batman]

12. yes he is. the republicans did a paper on kerry saying anything to get

elected in the late 1980's. im sure they'll (drudge) it up again. he's electable because he can play every side of the war. he has not taken a stand. he's very slippery. as others have pointed out, kerry needs a compass to find his position on the war. yep, electable. :eyes:

[bigtree]

48. OOO! republicans!

:scared: :scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared:

[CWebster]

13. On Hardball I actually heard him say

that when he returned from Viet Nam he protested the war because "it was the popular thing to do at the time".

Tell you anything?

[Monte Carlo]

17. Hear-say is not admissable evidence in a court of law.

Neither is strained conclusions or innuendo from it.

[CWebster]

19. Speaking of "strained conclusions", check the transcript

I remembered because you can't imagine how little it made me think of him at that moment.

[sangh0]

33. Check the transcript?

What transcript? You haven't provided any link

[Cha]

22. Wow! This gets thicker and

THicker!

[Cha]

21. Kaity, Kaity, Kaity!

Thank you for pointing out the obvious!

And a wee bit of toast to you this morning! :toast:

[kaitykaity]

27. Okay, now I can stick my head up.

Thanks. :hi:

[blm]

30. and avoid replying to the replies about who Kerry is?

Those posts don't merit an answer?

You asked a question, then only respond to those who share your preconceived notions, even though they are demonstrably incorrect?

[kaitykaity]

32. John Kerry was in the Senate when Bush stole the election.

Did John Kerry stand up? No.

John Kerry was in the Senate when George W. Bush
got his resolution for the Iraqi war. If Kerry had
the courage of his convictions, he would have voted
'no' on that IWR. Instead, Kerry chose political
expediency, cowering in the shadow of Bush's popularity.

Kerry was one of the pink tutu Democrats who appeased
Bush.

I don't think an appeaser is qualified to lead this
country.

Sorry.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

38. Go ahead and ignore the question

but it's obvious that your question was not a genuine request for information.

[blm]

36. Gore asked them not to. Blame Gore.

Kerry negotiated for that resolution which was nearly the same resolution supported by Dean back then.

btw...that resolution stopped Bush from extending use of force into Iran and Syria as he wanted. It also forced inspectors back in, which he did not want. And forced Bush to go to the UN first, which he did.

You see what you want to see. Somehow you have decided that Dean's support of Biden-Lugar = antiwar and that the IWR = prowar. No logician would agree.

btw...where is that GENUINENESS you claim in your original post?

[kaitykaity]

39. I made an observation regarding my reason

for not being able to embrace Kerry.

My confusion is genuine. I believe Kerry's behavior
is indicative of a lack of a quality we absolutely
must have in order to defeat George W. Bush.

I will let the 'genuineness' personal insult go,
because you at least tried to be polite.

Bottom line is, when we were out here in the
wilderness screaming about the lies Bush told,
Kerry was no where to be found.

[sangh0]

40. Not true

You did more than just "make an observation". You said you were not trying to start a flame-war while accusing Kerry of having no morals.

You also "genuinely asked" if Kerry's supposed lack of a moral center will hurt him in the GE, but later posts of yours show that you have already come to a conclusion

[blm]

45. You're wrong. kerry was the firstt to say Bush lied last June.

He also called for an investigation into Iraq intel last July.

Don't you know that Kerry and Joe Wilson are working together? Wilson wouldn't have come forward last July without shoring up support from Democrats he trusted first.

[kaitykaity]

66. Heard of Rand Beers?

Kerry also has one of the other intelligence guys
who retired in protest, Rand Beers, working for him.
(I think this is the guy.)

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/attack/statement/2003/0319bossresigns.htm

Yeah, Wilson kicks serious ReThug bootie, and I'm real
glad he's working for a Democrat, I don't care which
one.

July 2002 or July 2003?

John Kerry had his chance to impress me. Howard
Dean pinch hit for him and hit a Grand Slam while
Kerry was putting on his batting gloves.

"Mee tooo" after the bleeding has stopped doesn't
cut it with me.

[drfemoe]

24. Special Interests

I have a hard time believing he is not beholden to "special interests", as has been reported at DU. That's not an automatic dis-qualifier, imo. Covering up "special interests" would be more egregious imo. So what to make of this?

C. Stewart Forbes, Chief Executive Officer of Colliers International (Kerry's cousin), awarded a contract worth billions designating Colliers International as the exclusive real estate agent representing Vietnam.

In December of 1992, not long after Kerry was quoted in the world press stating "President Bush should reward Vietnam within a month for its increased cooperation in accounting for American MIAs," Vietnam announced it had granted Boston, Massachusetts based Colliers International, a contract worth billions. Colliers International became exclusive real estate agent representing Vietnam.
That deal alone put Colliers in a position to make tens of millions of dollars on the rush to upgrade Vietnam's ports, railroads, highways, government buildings, etc.

[Cheswick2.0]

28. yes Kerry represents everything that is wrong and corrupt

about the democratic party. He is also a follower. He never takes a stand on anything until someone first shows him the way, lately the person he is follwing is Howard Dean.

[blm]

31. HAHAHAHAHAHA...you can't be serious.

Kerry was ostracized by most of Washington for his dogged investigations.

>>>>>
Kerry and the Iran-Contra Fight
Before the conventional wisdom sets in on Kerry as some kind of careful pol with no bite, folks should reach back and remember his role back in the 1980s in challenging the whole Reagan administration ties to money laundering, drug running and the Contras down in Central America. Kerry was willing for years to face down the CIA, the Justice Department and narco-terrorists in pursuing the dirty dealings of the Reagan-North network of rightwing drug-linked paramilitaries.

http://www.nathannewman.org/log/archives/000945.shtml

[drfemoe]

41. So what about Colliers International ?

How is this different from Halliburton contracts?

[bigtree]

51. "So what about Colliers International ?"

links? argument? references? who is making these charges? context? timeline? article? quotes? tutorial? rag?

[drfemoe]

63. Vietnam Veterans

http://www.usvetdsp.com/jf_kerry.htm

Do they have an agenda? Yes. To inform the public about John Kerry's *record*. They have problems with it.

So how is this different than the current *reward you and yours* ethos of Washington?

[bigtree]

46. From Nathan Newman

"Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.) charged yesterday that Attorney General Edwin Meese III and the Justice Department have shunted aside allegations of illegal transactions involving the rebels in Nicaragua for months and cannot be trusted to conduct a thorough inquiry into the secret money transfers disclosed this week.

"It's like having the fox guard the chicken coop," Kerry said at a Capitol Hill news conference. "Attorney General Meese and others involved in the formulation of this policy, part of the overall politics of the White House, cannot be the ones to clear the air, no matter what their good intent and good will."

Kerry, a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said he has been conducting an investigation of "the network set up and operated by Oliver North from the National Security Council for almost a year now."

At issue, along with the rebels' character and reputation, is the U.S. government's commitment to enforce the law against criminals whose activities might advance foreign policy objectives, congressional investigators said. An overarching issue, Kerry said, is how "the power of the narco-dollar" has come to affect governments and policies."


Meese. Anyone here remember Meese? He was the king of corruption. We hate Ashcroft for his abuse of rights. Meese was nothing but a crook who used every slimy tactic in the book to stop John's investigation. But we grouse that he was ineffective in this. As if John had all of the power to stop them. Almost as if he himself were to blame. Have you seen the S&B crap? Some here would have you believe that he was an accomplice in the republican schemes. Let's see. He uncovers ollie North and his crimes for the world to see. Mars the facade of Reagan for all of us to revel in. But they obstruct and obfuscate and we foist the blame on John.

And we savage John Kerry here like Meese and his cronies did. Some here are more than proud to follow republican's drivel about him if it means possibly bringing John down. Will we follow all of their lies and distortions or just the drivel about the candidate we oppose?

Ever consider standing up against them? "Kerry has always seemed like a little bit of a 'wack-a-mole'" What! Afraid of republican bullshit? Well, get ready for an assault, whoever gets nominated. Why do we pull the men apart for them here? The only principle you express in your argument is electibility.

Sophomoric arguments like "Dean said it first!" won't get anyone elected. We need to make our arguments and defenses so that they will stand the test of time. This effort should be more than an attempt to carve out some small niche for your candidate. Tell me why I should vote for your candidate without the hand wringing and grousing. How can anyone make a decision about your candidate from an attack on another's character. All of these Democrats have extensive records of service to our country. All deserve the highest level of debate here that doesn't rely on innuendo and half-truths.

The level of discourse here would make the slimy Meese proud.

The IWR is a dividing line for trust in John Kerry. More so than the others who stood with him on that vote. No one believes Biden-Lugar would have stopped the president if it had passed. But we allow Gov. Dean, who supported Biden-Lugar, to claim the anti-war mantle. No Democrat, save Sen. Leiberman and Zell Miller, supported unilateral, preemptive invasion and occupation. Indeed, Some Democrats saw their vote as an effort to forestall war and push Bush back to the U.N. to obtain a broad coalition. The alternative was a 'no' vote that would have prevented nothing and given no guidance to return to the U.N. Do you believe a draft without their input would have mandated return to the U.N. like the final IWR did? Language aside in the bill, nothing in there actually gave Bush authority for unilateral, preemptive invasion and occupation. He could merely use the same authority that decades of presidents had used to commit forces without congressional approval:

(1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION- Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.

(2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS- Nothing in this joint resolution supersedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution.

After the troops are in the field Congress would be loath to remove them. What input would we have then? Just opposition. John Kerry and others attempted to influence the return to the U.N. within the IWR. Bush mostly disregarded that. He made the token attempt in the U.N. but he had stated all along that 1441 gave him the authority to do whatever he wanted in that region. The provisions that were included, steering him back to the international body, refuted that as much as a 'no' vote.

The bill did not provide the cover he sought. Nowhere in the IWR does it mandate unilateral, preemptive invasion and occupation. Nowhere; notwithstanding it's title, which belies the conditions within:

b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION- In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro temp ore of the Senate his determination that--

1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq


Bush pushed past Congress, the American people, and the international community in his predisposed rush to invade. Only in pursuit of the furtherance of our candidates do we blame Democrats for the sins of Bush.

[blm]

52. THANKYOU!!!!!!!

You're a real patriot, bigtree.

[blm]

59. you should post this as a thread.

.

[drfemoe]

64. *B* thought the amendment would

"tie his hands". That's why he didn't want it. I don't have to major on this issue to understand the fundamentals. He said I want *this* and in the end, that's what he got. Democrats, for the MOST part, not ALL, said OKAY, here you go!! My indignation goes way beyond the *war* vote and includes all the other rag legislation that gave *B* EXACTLY what he wanted all along.

I can only conclude that they either AGREE with what *B* wants or they are too scared to say otherwise or the *price* for them to vote their conscious was too high to pay from their POV. Which one is the answer? Did Kerry AGREE with *B* policies? Or "Other"? Being "misled" by gwb is a poor argument to recommend someone to replace him. .doy. "He fooled me ONCE (20 x?) .. but I have better judgment." I don't think that possibility can even exist.

[bigtree]

58. I viseted Collier's site. There are a number of former military who work

for the company. My question is what evidence beyond the normalization of relations do you have to prove some sort of collusion? It appears that there were many former military interests within Collier. Could some of these have influenced the contracts? Would that necessarily implicate John Kerry? The only associatin you make is the fact that they are cousins. Close cousins? Contact before or after John Kerry's actions with regard to NOR? What, other than innuendo will you provide to back up these charges?


Here's a partial list of the former servicemen who work for Colliers. Are you alleging a veteran's conspiracy?


Colliers Cauble & Co.: Russ Jobson
... Mr. Jobson served as an Infantry Squad Leader in the United States Army (Vietnam, one tour). ... School. ... He is an Executive Board Member and First Vice President of Atlanta Vietnam Veteran's Business Association. ...
http://www.colliers.com/Markets/Atlanta/ FindAPerson/russ.jobson?

Leasing Guidelines
... 68 United States . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 71 Vietnam . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 73 For further information, please contact: Ross Moore, Vice President Research, ross. moore@ colliers. com Reproduction of any ...
http://www.colliers.com/Content/ Repositories/Base/Corporate/English/

Prehm.SteveProfile
... Dean’s List Military Service 1966 -1969: United States Army, Armored Division, 4 years, First Lieutenant 1967 -1968: Armored Cavalry Troop Commander, Cu Chi, Vietnam 1968 -1969: U. S. A. Armor Headquarters -Fort Knox, KY Business Experience/Honors 1996 -2001: 90/10 Club Member for Outstanding Sales Achievement ...
http://www.colliersparrish.com/ PDFprofiles/sjc/sprehm.pdf -

Profile.Template.New
... Colorado, was educated at the University of Denver and served with distinction as a combat sergeant with the United States Marine Corps in Vietnam. JOSEPH NORTH Retail/Investment Division E-mail: jnorth@ lvcolliers. com Web: www. lvcolliers. com. com/jnorth PROFILE COLLIERS INTERNATIONAL 3960 Howard Hughes Pkwy ...
http://www.colliersparrish.com/ PDFprofiles/las/jnorth.pdf -

Rowland.Bob.Profile
... Special Achievement” from the Federal Energy Administration for service during the Arab Oil Embargo of 1973. “The Air Medal” for meritorious achievement in Vietnam. Granted Captain Wings for MD-80 Jets by TWA in 1993. Education University of Colorado, Bachelor of Science in Accounting University of Missouri, Finance ...
http://www.colliersparrish.com/ PDFprofiles/sjc/rrowland.pdf -

Colliers International: T. Orden Yost, CCIM
... range of market conditions. Yost is Airborn, Ranger, Special Forces qualified in the United States Army and is a decorated veteran of the Vietnam War. His educational experience includes studies at Brigham Young University with a focus on marketing and psychology. ...
http://www.colliers.com/Markets/

Colliers International: Mike Farmer
... goals. ... Farmer attended the University of Kansas, where he focused on studies in mathematics and English. He is a Vietnam Veteran and served a three-year stint on active duty as an infantry officer with the United States Marine Corps. He recently retired from ...
http://www.colliers.com/Markets/

Colliers International: C.E. "Buddy" Dunstan
... U. S. Navy, 1965-1969, Combat veteran, Vietnam, 1966-1968 ...
http://www.colliers.com/Markets/Memphis/ FindAPerson/buddy.dunstan?

Colliers International: Robert Kasvinsky
... market projections, special studies, and real estate market reports. A former Lieutenant Commander in Naval Air Intelligence, Bob served two tours of duty in a carrier-based jet attack squadron in Vietnam. ...
http://www.colliers.com/Markets/Boston/ FindAPerson/robert.kasvinsky?

[drfemoe]

65. Evidence

My question is what evidence beyond the normalization of relations do you have to prove some sort of collusion? It appears that there were many former military interests within Collier. Could some of these have influenced the contracts? Would that necessarily implicate John Kerry? The only associatin you make is the fact that they are cousins. Close cousins? Contact before or after John Kerry's actions with regard to NOR? What, other than innuendo will you provide to back up these charges?

This is one instance where Kerry's *stand* on an issue had a direct benefit to either himself or someone related to him. Granted, most of his actions have been taken with the intention of advancing his own ambition. If you read the information I linked above, you may find that at one point, he was a hindrance to the recovery of POW/MIAs in Vietnam, et al. Once again, he works one side of an issue then jumps to the other side for the payoff. Very shrewd, I will grant you. Very advantageous for political power in this country, I will grant you. Dependable with heart felt convictions for the best thing for the *American People*? I am skeptical.

[Castilleja]

26. That is about how he appears to me

not wanting to rock the boat, staying safe, finger in the wind. Thanks Kaity, nice post.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

34. About the same as any other of the candidates

I've heard such accusations about all them, frankly: Dean for the disconnect between his podium personality and his record as governor, Clark for his late conversion to the Democratic party, Edwards for railing against Bush yet helping draft the Patriot Act, Kucinich for changing his mind on abortion, Kerry for voting for the IWR after protesting the Vietnam War, Lieberman and Gephardt for cozying up to Bush, Moseley-Braun for accepting an invitation from a Nigerian dictator, and Sharpton for his past activities in the New York area.

(Before you jump on me, I don't necessarily agree with all these accusations. I'm just stating that I've heard them.)

Now if you want "lack of moral center," I give you former Governor George Walker Bush. Or any of his cronies.

[janx]

42. Kerry is unelectable.

His IWR vote, his support of the Patriot Act, and his former anti-war activities are fodder for Chimp and his boys come November. They will pulverize Kerry.

These aren't just talking points either; they're facts. Chimpy has already started in on the IWR inconsistency.

A vote for Kerry is a vote for four more years of Bush*.

[bigtree]

53. A vote for Kerry is a vote for four more years of Bush?

Only if we refuse to defend him.

As far as your post is concerned those are just talking points. Snarky surrender to "Chimp and his boys". You do all of the tearing down and they will come in and clean up.

Let's not defend against the republican attacks on John Kerry. But when they come for our candidate, who will stand with us?

Chimpy on the IWR inconsistency: These aren't just talking points either; they're facts. So anything Bush will say will be accepted by you as a fact. Will you accept every lie and distortion from the republicans or just the drivel about John Kerry?

[Ganja Ninja]

54. He's wide open considering....

that this type of attack is something the "librul" corporate owned media specialize in. They certainly won't attack Bush with this type of vague nonsense. What the hell does that mean "No moral center?" Next thing you know somebody like the Boston Globe will be trying to do a hatchet job on him for having a distant Jewish ancestor and not shouting it from the roof top.

[drfemoe]

67. Or "Insight on the News"

will write a two part in-depth report titled:
The Many Faces of John Kerry
... "Granted, to win elections American politicians of every political stripe have for decades altered and bonded their positions to suit the zeitgeist of public opinion. But Kerry has been singled out by both Democrats and Republicans for saying without conviction or belief whatever will generate media attention and help win elections. Often he is ambivalent or obfuscates to try to satisfy those on both sides of antithetical issues. Many editorial writers and commentators have dismissed him as a transparent self-promoter, a phony and an opportunist. It has been reported widely that he has been running for president since his days at prep school, with every significant move in his life calculated to further that end. A local joke among Boston pols is that his initials, JFK, stand for "Just for Kerry." ...

If his 'electability' is derived from being all things to all people at just the appropriate moment, the ball of twine will reach an end. No person can continually practice this approach to life on this karmic plane without an eventual head-on collision with reality.

[kaitykaity]

68. Maybe my phrasing was off a bit.

Maybe I could have used 'strength of character' or another
one of the stock RW buzz phrases that they use to praise
the marvelous qualities they see in their fearless emperor
pretender.

I'm not the one that would make this attack. I phrased
it the way the RWingers will phrase it. If you think the
Thugs won't attack Kerry if he's the nominee . . .

I'm a committed Democrat, and I will hold my nose if I
have to to vote for him.

But he's vulnerable on this.

[TLM]

56. The fact he has no moral center is why his supporters like him

They think Kerry can;t be attacked since he supported the war, the patriot act, no child left behind, and a ton of Bush's agenda.

But Bush will hit Kerry with the flip flops and the fence sitting... lying about throwing his metals etc.

Kerry would lose, and lose hard. He'll make Gore's campaign look like a day in the park. They'll hit him with everything... and guess what, a hell of a lot of democrats won't support him.

I know Kerry can count on not getting my vote... I will not vote for another DLC puppet corrupt status quo DC insider.

[kaitykaity]

61. I really hope that's just the heat of the moment talking.

I still think Kerry is a 'finger in the wind'
politician; hell he's my third choice after Dean
and Clark.

I don't have to like it. I won't like it. But
hell or high water if he's the nominee I'll damn
sure vote for him.