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Melodybe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:07 AM
Original message
Official stop Kerry thread
So if we don't get together quick Dean, Edwards, Clark people we all loose. What now?

I want to make the country better, not just get another politician. Kerry won't fix things, he hasn't fixed much yet, I don't think he'll start any time soon.
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
1. It was obnoxious when it was used against Dean and it's obnoxious now
Make no mistake, I can't stand Kerry and I think he's an electoral disaster waiting to happen but you need to knock this stuff off.
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wheresthemind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:09 AM
Original message
seconded... does this thread meet the rules?
hmmm
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mourningdove92 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. I agree. Lets stop this nonsense. No matter who the
candidate is in November, we have to stick together.
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. Are you sure you know who you're agreeing with?
I just don't think "stop Democrat" campaigns are appropriate here... when it comes to sticking together, I'm going to have to think long and hard and then think again if it's Kerry.
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Melodybe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. Dean /Clark people have been getting unfairly beaten all week
Edited on Wed Jan-28-04 12:14 AM by Melodybe
And we should just take it!?! I'm not going to cut it out Kerry is the most flawed of our candidates!

All of the bad things they say about Kerry are true! Dean's faults were hyped up by the media. Clark and Dean were called insane. How the hell is Kerry more experienced? Edwards is being labled wrongly as well, the man is 50 years old for Christ's sake. Just b/c Kerry looks like death warmed over doesn't mean he is out there fighting for the little guy! He is sitting on a house of cards and we all know it!
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youngred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. "we" don't all "know it"
but ABB
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
24. Hey, I don't disagree with a lot of your opinions
But trying to organize a "stop a Democrat" campaign here is bad form. Someone tried it with Dean and it generated a HUGE amount of ill will.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. Exactly.
On Koppel they're saying it's an insider fix, the Democratic establishment taking hold.

What will defeat him? Talking health care and economics. Talking jobs. Concrete plans to create jobs and keep them.

"It's the economy, stupid."
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youngred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. I agree with the sentiment
disagree on Kerry
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Democrats unite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
2. I wouldn't call it a stop Kerry thread...
Lest say, fire up our candidates, to overcome Kerry.
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angee_is_mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. she states
that it was the official stop Kerry thread. Since she is the one who started it is her right to define what she posted and have been posting all evening!

Her intentions are very basic and straight forward, my fellow Clark supporter.
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Catch22Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
3. I don't really think this is appropriate...
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murielm99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #3
22. I agree.
Let's get behind the nominee, whoever that is. And we do not really know who that is, yet! What is this listening to Koppel? Isn't he the one who dissed Kuchinich?

Forget the pundits. We need to be united here.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
4. Ask rageagainsttheirmachine if this is a good idea.
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angee_is_mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
6. What has Kerry done 2 U?
It sounds like you actually hate the man. Did you feel this way before Iowa? How did you feel about Clark in December when he was polling neck and neck with dean?
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cavebat2000 Donating Member (347 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. Lol i do hate him :)
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Melodybe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #6
27. I never said a bad word about clark until I found out about
Axicom and SOA, I researched and decided that his heart is in the right place. I was fine with Kerry for about 2 days when I thought that Kerry was our only choice b/c he opted out. When I found out the rules to the GE and realized that none of the Dems have a roof on fundraising, then I looked at Kerry record and person and didn't like what I found. then he started play dirty politics and ripping off our candidates in his wtump. then I saw the media hype how great he was and want to barf!

Kerry has yet to say one god damn thing that really matters yet, and so yeah I'm mad about this.
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angee_is_mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. and the other candidates?
have they said anything bad about Kerry?

Ever DUer are not kerry supporters, so there are going to be alot of upset people on here. I am one of them, but I am rational enough to look at the big picture.

I can remember a time one my candidate was polling very high and he and his supporters were attacked!

It seems that anyone who wins a primary, other then the one with the most money will be attacked.

I look for to the day where I will read a post from Dean supporters asking Sharpton, DK and Kerry to come together to try force Clark out.

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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
54. I do not hate John Kerry
I reserve that emotion for Shrub. However:

A. I did not support Kerry before Iowa, I do not support him now. I remain convinced that he is the surest ticket to a loss in November.

B. I liked Clark from the start. I have been critical of his support for SOA. But, I never had a problem with him polling well as I felt he was a more electable option than most.
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KC21304 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
7. You might need Kucinich, Sharpton, CMB andGephardt too. LOL
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HalfManHalfBiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
8. Tell me, exactly, what is wrong with our nominee
A more liberal voting record than Ted Kennedy.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #8
17. Excuse me? Kerry is NOT the nominee. Not yet.
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HalfManHalfBiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #17
26. Yes he is, it is obvious
Will you support our man Kerry vs Bush?
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #8
49. Bingo! You have given the answer to your question.
"A more liberal voting record than Ted Kennedy."

You nailed it on the first try, Impressive.
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Lefta Dissenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
10. Well, other than the option of
everyone getting behind Clark, I guess we can just plug on, supporting our various candidates, and seeing how it all plays out.

Yes, I'll encourage everyone to vote for Clark, but seeing as how he manages to compete while staying OUT of the gutter, I guess I'll try to follow suit.
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angee_is_mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #10
20. I am proud of you
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dolstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
16. We won't stop Kerry as long as Dean is still in the race
I suspect a lot of people are voting for Kerry because they're desperate to stop Dean. But if Dean were out of the race, people would give guys like Edwards and Clark a second look.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. But Dean is still in the race.
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PretzelWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
19. what do you say, folks? listen to one who can't even spell lose?
get a grip. the PEOPLE want Kerry. Some people don't, but if the PEOPLE do, then Democracy works. Don't be so negative. Why don't you focus on beating Bush? You are being too sharp in your anger toward an American hero and established leader in USA.
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jmags Donating Member (517 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
21. Grow up
Kerry and Dean have very similar positions. It's fair to say that both of them will change our country for the better. Today my support is for Kerry, and I hope he will win the nomination. However, if Dean wins, I will volunteer my time for him and do anything I can to get him elected. The bottom line is that the differences are rather small between the candidates. If you wish to hold his IWR vote against him, feel free...but don't act as if a Kerry presidency won't fix anything. To do so would be the same simplistic, black and white, juvenille bullshit that I can't stand about the GOP.
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murielm99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. Hugs to you!
You said that very well.
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ACPS65 Donating Member (217 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
25. Actually mel, acording to some of the tin-foil hatters,
Kerry fixed the Iowa caucus.

You know, hanging around outside, shaking up old people and telling them to switch their votes.
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Melodybe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. This race is dirty and poor people are going to end up screwed!
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
29. Is this a joke?
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angee_is_mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. she has a few
other posts similar to this one.

She probably just needs a good night's sleep and she will be OK in the morning! lol

Behavior like this reflects badly on her candidate. Maybe this is why the exit polls tonight showed that people felt that Dean was not electable and not as likable. People view him as a loose canon and uncontrollable, possibly.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #35
43. Loose canon and uncontrollable for sure
they all need to read Nick's post number 41.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
32. WE WILL BEAT BUSH!!!


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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
33. It takes a lot to win a nomination.
Message, energy, campaign organization, deflecting BS, and money. If Kerry can put all this together and win, more power to him. If the other candidates cannot overcome his strength, then too bad for them. They would have to be better than he is at all (or most) of those things.

And despite the fact that we would like the contest to be about message only, all of those other factors are important qualities for determining a President too.

(I am a Dean supporter and volunteer.)
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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
34. Oh Brother....
LET THE PEOPLE VOTE!
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
36. W. Shakespeare, Henry the Eighth, 1, 1, 140

"Heat not a furnace for your foe so hot
That it do singe yourself. We may outrun
By violent swiftness that which we run at,
And lose by over-running."
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
37. Melody, Don't Do This with a Dean Avatar
I would also like to stop Kerry. I think Dean will be much stronger in November. But it can't be approached like this.
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freetempe Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
38. I can't bring myself to vote for Kerry
Even if he is the nominee. I do not owe the DLC/DNC/Washington Insiders my vote "no matter what". And the whole "ABB" is BS. I won't vote for Bush. I'll vote Libertarian, Green or write in Howard Dean. I have no allegience to the party elite and their hand picked, blow dried, empty suit of a candidate.

Kerry and the Dem establishment are the problem, not the solution. Once Kerry is destroyed in 2004 because no one shows up to vote and we have a repeat of 2002, maybe they'll wake up, but I doubt it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Edge Donating Member (728 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
39. I don't like or trust Kerry either...
but I don't want to stop another Democrat.

ABB.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
41. Yeah sure
Edited on Wed Jan-28-04 01:17 AM by Nicholas_J
Kerry has the best record of fighting and beating republicans who were violating the law and fevderal regulations

Nixon, Reagan, Ollei North, Iran Contra, BCCI, and it goes on.

YOu will find absolutely nothing in Deans record of opposing Republicans and stopping them from forcing through thie agendas while he was governor, you will not find one instance in which Dean raise a finger to stop large corporaations from their abuses or violations of environmental or any other kind of regulations at all.

In fact, as governor, you will find that Dean supported Republican ideals, as well as having been supported by Republicans:

Monsanto's Intimidation Tactics Continue

Headline: Monsanto Unit Challenges Vt. Cow Hormone Licensing Bil Wire Service: DJ (Dow Jones)

Date: Wed, Jan 14, 1998

MONTPELIER, Vt. (AP)--Monsanto Co.'s (MTC) Protiva unit said it will stop selling the artificial bovine hormone recombinant Bovine Somatrotropin, or rBST, in Vermont if a bill requiring that it be licensed passes the Legislature...

With that provision, the state can keep track of who is using rBST and who is not, said Rep. Jenny Nelson, D-Ryegate, a member of the conference committee that approved the measure. There is no licensing fee. Dean said he would veto the bill because of the licensing provision, which he opposes not because of Monsanto's threat but because he knows farmers are against it. The bill also seeks to authorize a voluntary labelling program so consumers can select dairy products made without the use of rBST.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/rBGH/MonIntim.html

In 1998, Monsanto sent a letter to policy-makers in Virginia threatening to sue the state if a proposed voluntary BST labelling bill became law. Governor Howard Dean reversed his earlier support for the bill and instead threatened to veto it.

http://www.tv.cbc.ca/newsinreview/mar99/milk/other.htm

Monsanto's Legal Thuggery

Monsanto's legal team began 1998 by taking on the State of Vermont and its attempts to pass a very weak rBGH law that merely required Monsanto to register with the state and make its client list available to state authorities so "rBGH-free" claims could be verified. The company responded by publicly threatening to sue the state and stop selling its products in Vermont if the bill passed. Governor Howard Dean, feeling the lobbying heat from Monsanto and its rBGH-addicted farmers in Vermont, came to Monsanto's defense and pulled the plug on the measure by threatening a veto. The legislature then went on to further soften an already spineless bill by removing the section that required the drug manufacturer's client list. Eventually, after yet another legal threat and a "closed-door" meeting with Governor Dean, Monsanto backed off and let the near-meaningless legislation go into effect.

http://www.adbusters.org/magazine/24/monsanto.html


Dean was accused a number of times for vetoing legislation or standing back and not helping democrats pass legislation designed to require pharmaceutical companies to give the state the same kind of deep discounts and rebates for drugs it purchased to provide through medicaid, or through the VSCRIPT program, allowing "Big Pill" to bilk the government and citizens of Vermont for enormous sums of money:


Reports also described allegations that Governor Dean vetoed a pharmacy bill after collecting $ 6,000 in campaign contributions from drug companies.

. The influence of out-of-state donations: "Outside money is one of Howard Dean's specialties. Of the $ 312,290 the governor raised for his 1996 election, 65 percent came from out-of-state contributors: labor unions, Washington lawyer-lobbyists, the health care industry, to name a few of the special interests." n13 For the 1994 election "Dean, for example, received more money from major pharmaceutical manufacturers during the reporting period ($ 11,000) thin he did from people and companies located in Burlington ($ 10,460)." n14 One editorial said, "it's no mystery why out-of-state contributors pumped hundreds of thousands of dollars into Vermont campaigns. ... They're trying to buy influence. But the cost is public trust." n15

Bryan Pfeiffer, Dean Angry About Pharmacy Veto Criticism, News Story, Rutland Herald, June 16, 1994


http://www.brookingsinstitution.org/dybdocroot/gs/cf/headlines/cases/LandellvSorrell.DOC

Challenging Pharmaceutical Industry Political Power in Maine and Vermont Ramón Castellblanch San Francisco State University

Legislative backers of S 300 in Vermont had little time to effectively build support for their bill. In addition to the demands the civil union bill was making on their availability, the legislature has one of the smallest staffs in the country. 5 Vermont legislative leaders had few people to whom they could delegate the task of obtaining support for the bill. Having relatively little time for the prescription drug price issue, Senate President Shumlin and Senator Rivers were not able to wage a strong campaign to gain the support of the press or to rally grassroots support. Shumlin and Rivers also did not have time to meet with pharmacists themselves to allay their fears. The senators could do little to ease the pharmacists' apprehension that they would lose money under S 300 or to keep them from opposing the bill.

The industry built a house coalition to block the price control bill. The house had a thin Democratic majority. To block the bill, the industry needed all house Republicans and a few of its Democrats. Republicans tend to receive larger shares of their campaign dollars from business than do Democrats. Public demands for social programs must generally reach a level at which failure to provide them would unmistakably cost elections before most Republicans would support them. Given that they were not feeling a great deal of grassroots pressure for price controls, the Republicans could be counted upon to oppose S 300. For its Democratic votes, the industry looked to four to ten "blue dogs," Democrats who sometimes voted with Republicans. Two of the blue dogs, Reps. Michael Flaherty (D-South Burlington) and Hank Gretkowski (D-Burlington), were retired pharmaceutical salesmen who opposed price controls. Flaherty and Gretkowski found enough other blue dogs to join with them that, together with house Republicans, price control opponents had a majority. S 300 was blocked in the house. After it was clear that S 300 was blocked, Governor Dean announced that he would not veto it. His "support" was too late. Had he acted earlier in the legislative session, he could have used legislative items sought by the blue dogs in bargaining with them on the prescription drug price bill. By the time the governor indicated his support, there was little left with which to bargain. His support also came too late for the independent pharmacists. Had his support come earlier, he might have helped persuade independent pharmacy owners that the bill would not reduce their revenues


http://www.metrostate.edu/cgi-bin/troxy/lproxy.cgi/URL-www.press.jhu.edu/journals/journal_of_health_politics_policy_and_law/v028/28.1castellblanch.html


Or

How about the questions about Deans sealed records and the questions about his relations with several large energy corporations, and the sale deal he made for them, thne receiving money for his current presidential campaign from the energy company executives for changing the sale from a company that already had been selected, to another company that put in a new bid, that was not in any way more advatageous to the people of Vermont, but to Howard Dean campaign funds:

CLF seeks details of Dean administration’s talks with utilities
March 11, 2002

(from the State section)
By SUSAN SMALLHEER Southern Vermont Bureau


MONTPELIER — The Conservation Law Foundation will file a freedom of information request with the Dean administration today to find out how many contacts it has had with Vermont utility executives over the pending sale of the Vermont Yankee nuclear power plant.

Mark Sinclair, senior attorney with the environmental group, said Monday that recent news reports about {b]the financial contributions made by Vermont utility executives or board members to Gov. Howard Dean’s presidential campaign political action committee were “too much of a coincidence.”

Sinclair said the new offer from Entergy Nuclear of Jackson, Miss., last week wasn’t substantially better than the original bid, and doesn’t really address the serious concerns raised by the state earlier this winter about local control and other economic issues.

“The department didn’t get anything,” he said.

Sinclair compared it to the negotiations with Vice President Dick Cheney by energy companies that are now subject to an investigation by the General Accounting Office.

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/Archive/Articles/Article/43924


In 1998, Dean's Vermont similar task force met in secret to write a plan for revamping state electricity markets that would slow rising consumer costs and relieve utilities of a money-losing deal with a Canadian company.

The task force's work resulted in Vermont having the first utility in the country to meet energy efficiency standards. It also freed the state's utilities from their deal with a Canadian power company, Hydro Quebec, that had left them near bankruptcy but passed as much as 90 percent of those costs to consumers. Utility shareholders also suffered some losses.

The parallels between the Cheney and Dean task forces are many.


http://rutlandherald.com/hdean/76581

Then on top of this, Deans total flip flops on Iraq are legion.

Dean was talking about supporting unilateral invasion of Iraq before Kerry or the other candidates had signed any legislation regarding Iraq:

Face the Nation, September 29, 2002

DEAN: Sure, I think the Democrats have pushed him into that position and the Congress, and I think that's a good thing. And I think he is trying to do that. We still get these bellicose statements.

Look, it's very simple. Here's what we ought to have done. We should have gone to the U.N. Security Council. We should have asked for a resolution to allow the inspectors back in with no pre-conditions. And then we should have given them a deadline saying "If you don't do this, say, within 60 days, we will reserve our right as Americans to defend ourselves and we will go into Iraq."


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/30/ftn/printable523726.shtml


Salon.com, February 20, 2003

"As I've said about eight times today," he says, annoyed -- that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.

http://www.howardsmusings.com/2003/02/20/salon_on_the_campaign_trail_with_the_unbush.html

Dean's flip flops on the threat of Saddam Hussein

Viewing Saddam Hussein as a threat



"I agree with President Bush -- he has said that Saddam Hussein is evil. And he is," Dean said. " is a vicious dictator and a documented deceiver. He has invaded his neighbors, used chemical arms, and failed to account for all the chemical and biological weapons he had before the Gulf War. He has murdered dissidents, and refused to comply with his obligations under U.N. Security Council Resolutions. And he has tried to build a nuclear bomb. Anyone who believes in the importance of limiting the spread of weapons of mass killing, the value of democracy, and the centrality of human rights must agree that Saddam Hussein is a menace. The world would be a better place if he were in a different place other than the seat of power in Baghdad or any other country. So I want to be clear. Saddam Hussein must disarm. This is not a debate; it is a given."

A month later on Meet the Press, Dean said he believed that Iraq "is automatically an imminent threat to the countries that surround it because of the possession of these weapons."

Dean may have thought there was "no question" that Hussein was a threat before the war, but looking back now, his hindsight is telling him the opposite. Just this week, for example, Dean mentioned at the DNC's New Hampshire debate "that there was no serious threat to the United States from Saddam Hussein."

Similarly, the New York Times reported today that Dean said, plainly, "I never said Saddam was a danger to the United States, ever." In light of the Face the Nation quote from 2002, we know that's just not correct.

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/000940.html

Now loets look at what a number of Vermont Progressives and Liberal Democrats have to say about Dean and who and what he stood for:

Those who know Dean say he’s no classic liberal
By ROSS SNEYD

Associated Press Writer


Dean kept his distance from his party’s liberals during his governorship.

"He seemed to take glee in attacking us at every opportunity and using us as a way to form alliances with more conservative elements," said former state Sen. Cheryl Rivers, a leader of the state Democrats’ liberal wing and former chairwoman of the powerful Senate Finance Committee...

...Dean trimmed spending or held down increases in areas held dear by the liberals. More than once, Dean went to battle over whether individual welfare benefits should rise under automatic cost of living adjustments. Liberals were particularly incensed when he tried that tactic on a program serving the blind, disabled and elderly, which he did several times...

Rivers blames Dean for helping a third political party to flourish in Vermont that many say siphons votes from Democrats. "The Progressive Party gained some momentum during his years as governor because he was so conservative,"

http://premium1.fosters.com/2003/news/may_03/may_19/news/reg_vt0519a.asp


And


Howard Dean: the Progressive Anti-War Candidate?
Some Vermonters Give Their Views

August 29, 2003


I know that a lot of you are going to vote for Dean -- he talks a good game; he can be charismatic and charming. But I'm warning you. This man will tell you what you want to hear, or at least tell you something that has some little kernel of something that you can interpret as support for the things that are important to you. But when the time comes to stand up and lead on the issue, to take on the money interests and backsliders in his own party, that stiff little spine will turn into a slinky.

If you vote for him, it's your job to stand behind him with a poker and keep him headed in the right direction. Don't give him any honeymoon period, either--keep the pressure on from the second you drop that ballot in the box. The minute you relax, he's going to turn right back into what he really is...a privileged, arrogant, middle of the road republican. Put your political energy into getting some truly progressive folks into the House and Senate, and into State legislatures around the country so that there will be more pressure from more directions. We need to get together our sophisticated progressive thinkers to develop policy ideas in every area, so that we're ready with real, well-thought out counter-proposals for the incremental changes a Dean administration might put forth. If you feel you must, support Dean, do--but then go do the work necessary to make real change.


http://www.counterpunch.org/jacobs08292003.html


Who's the Real Howard Dean?
As Vermont governor, the liberal firebrand was a fiscal conservative with close ties to business



Conservative Vermont business leaders praise Dean's record and his unceasing efforts to balance the budget, even though Vermont is the only state where a balanced budget is not constitutionally required. Moreover, they argue that the two most liberal policies adopted during Dean's tenure -- the "civil unions" law and a radical revamping of public school financing -- were instigated by Vermont's ultraliberal Supreme Court rather than Dean

Business leaders were especially impressed with the way Dean went to bat for them if they got snarled in the state's stringent environmental regulations. When Canada's Husky Injection Molding Systems Ltd. wanted to build a new manufacturing plant on 700 acres of Vermont farmland in the mid-'90s, for instance, Dean greased the wheels. Husky obtained the necessary permits in near-record time. "He was very hands-on," says an appreciative Dirk Schlimm, the Husky executive in charge of the project.

And when environmentalists tried to limit expansion of snowmaking at ski resorts, "Dean had to show his true colors, and he did -- by insisting on a solution that allowed expanding snowmaking," says Stenger. IBM (IBM ) by far the state's largest private employer, says it got kid-gloves treatment. "We would meet privately with him three to four times a year to discuss our issues," says John O'Kane, manager for government relations at IBM's Essex Junction plant, "and his secretary of commerce would call me once a week just to see how things were going."

Still, Dean had a knack for positioning himself and never lost an election. Those who know him best believe Dean is moving to the left to boost his chances of winning the nomination. "But if he gets the nomination, he'll run back to the center and be more mainstream," predicts Stenger. Says Garrison Nelson, a political science professor at the University of Vermont: "Howard is not a liberal. He's a pro-business, Rockefeller Republican."


http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_32/b3845084.htm

Dena was widely supported by Republican Insiders as Governor:


Some Republicans back Dean
By TRACY SCHMALER Vermont Press Bureau


MONTPELIER - Democratic Gov. Howard Dean got a boost from the other side Thursday when a group of prominent Republicans turned out to support his re-election bid.

Led by South Burlington attorney William Gilbert, a core group of 11 Republicans said they believed Dean has proven his ability to lead the state in a fiscally responsible direction and for that reason, and his nine years of experience, he is their choice over GOP candidate Ruth Dwyer...

Even Dean acknowledged that his fiscal policy was the common ground he shared with the nine men and two women at the table, most of whom admitted to voting for Dean in the last election.

The group, known as "Republicans for Dean" represents the first organized GOP endorsement for Dean in any of his five campaigns

http://www.rutlandherald.com/election2000/repbackdean.html

P.S. The William Gilbert who headed Republicans for Dean was also the head of his secret energy group.


The record is clear. One truth that Howard Dean speaks in his presidential campaign is the line about the fact the "The biggest lie that people like him tell people like us when they are running for president is that "They will change America". The truth is that You will change America."

In Dean's case this is particualrly true, as it is clear from his record, that once in office, he will do little if anything to keep the promises of his campaign. That is is history"
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 07:12 AM
Response to Original message
42. what do you mean : get together?
Why don't we just let the primary play out? That's my plan. :) Go Wes.
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RageAgainstTheirMachine Donating Member (310 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 07:20 AM
Response to Original message
44. I would advise against this.
My shortlived efforts to "Stop Dean" were wrong and divisive. This campaign would be also. I'm no fan of Kerry but you should prop up Dean (if he's your guy), not try to tear Kerry down.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #44
53. I've grown to loathe Kerry...
I've grown to loathe Kerry for his disingenousness, but (1) I won't participate in a solely-negative campaign like this, and (2) I'm still gonna have to vote for him(?) come November. ABB.

One step closer to... Skull vs Bonehead
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woldnewton Donating Member (402 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 07:23 AM
Response to Original message
45. Another great place for Kerry STOPPERS to convene and mobilize...
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #45
47. Here is an even better place to bash Kerry for you
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
46. Was this meant to be posted at Freerepublic or something? n/t
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Loonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 07:30 AM
Response to Original message
48. Wow, Dean supporters are sore losers
Who woulda thunk it?
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. Perhaps the folks that were calling us
"Kool-aid" drinkers...
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. I'm joining the stop-Kerry team. By donating up to my 2k limit to Dean
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #52
56. Money can't buy everything!
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. So, why is Bush raising 200M ?
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. Because he can
so what? Tom Carper beat Bill Roth by a landslide here in Delaware and he had HALF the campaign funds and Roth was the incubent for years.
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union_maid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 08:02 AM
Original message
That's really supporting your guy
There's nothing wrong with that. I don't have that kind of money to donate to Clark. But stopping anyone by sliming him with the kind of garbage that's only going to help the Republicans in the GE is not helping anyone. Kerry has a good record. It's not perfect. All the candidates have things in their records that make them less than the Platonic ideal for a left leaning Democrat, including Dean. Even including Kucinich. Before you put on the tinfoil hat and decide that Kerry is the choice of the DLC, remember that first that was supposedly Lieberman and then it was supposed to be Clark. Seems like Kerry is third choice according to conventional wisdom. And if a pundit says it, it sure doesn't make it so. What the pundits have demonstrated is that they're getting paid to go on TV and air their views with no more insight than those of us who do it for free here.

Kerry might be stopped in the south. That's where he'll really be tested. Any candidate who wants to beat Bush is going to need to be able to take those primaries. If Kerry is stopped, then it'll be the process that does it. If he wins there, then he's probably the right man. This year the process seems well designed to produce the best candidate to rid the world of the worst administration in history and in the end that's by far the most important thing.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #48
55. Being on an anonymous board there is no way of knowing they are...
...Dean supporters or not. Could be Bush supporters for all any of us know.

Don

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #55
58. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #55
59. good point Don n/t
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
51. How about we let the voters decide.
I'm a Dean supporter and I find your 'Stop Kerry' thing repulsive. Count me out.
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Zech Marquis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
61. this is sad
stop Kerry from what? We should be resolved to stopping *, not each other!
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
62. The best reason to stop Kerry is because
once he gets out in front, it will be snoozeville from here on in.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
63. Locking.....
1. If you start a thread in this forum, you must present your opinion in a manner that is not inflammatory, which respects differences in opinion, and which is likely to lead to respectful discussion rather than flaming. The moderators have the sole authority to decide whether a thread topic is inflammatory.



DU Moderator
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