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I turn my back on the flag during the pledge.

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bububjones Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-05 11:34 AM
Original message
I turn my back on the flag during the pledge.
Edited on Sat Sep-24-05 11:35 AM by bububjones
A few people in my class were offened and so I taped this up at the front of the class and they stopped bugging me, and I'm wondering what you guys think:

Trying times for trying souls in a trying age of a trying world.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one person to no longer daily avow the ideological bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the secure and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.


I was under the impression that we still hold these truths to be self-evident:

That all people are created equal. That they are endowed by their creator with certain rights that cannot be denied nor revoked. That among these rights are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed, and will accordingly seek peaceful means of protest until the situation becomes intolerable. These forms of protest being carried out in such a way as does not harm others and that fallow the rule of law. Such now is the necessity which constrains them to alter their former system of patriotism. The history of the current President of These United States is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object of establishment of a Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused to assent Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has, by means of false interpretation of the laws of these lands, imprisoned the citizens of These United States without charge or bail.

He has controlled the representative houses repeatedly from opposing with manly firmness his invasion on the rights of people.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing to nominate judges that judged based on the law, and when parties take just action as prescribed by the law, his representatives in the senate coerced those parties by threatening to remove the legality of the actions taken by those who would oppose him.

He has erected a multitude of new offices, and placed in those offices political allies, with no concern for the necessity of those offices, nor for the qualification of those appointments.

He has, willingly and knowingly, passed laws onto the states that the states are unable to uphold without funding, and when these funds were petitioned for, those petitions ignored.

He has affected to render the Military independent and superior to Civil power.

He has combined with others to create laws illegal and foreign by our constitution; giving his assent to their act of Pretend Legislation:

For protecting those who support him, by means of mock trial, from punishment for any unwholesome acts which they should commit on the citizens of these States.

For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretend offences

For imprisoning members of the press, against any reasonable interpretation of the law, for publicly investigating and questioning the actions that he has taken against the people of these states.

For abolishing our most valuable laws, and altering fundamentally our form of government.

For allowing the fiscal condition of the government of these United States to become so sorrowful as to be beyond remedy.

He has committed felonies against the people, breaching the very laws he has sworn to uphold:

He has used the revenue from taxes to bribed members of the media of these states in order for them to print in favor of his positions
In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Then our founding fathers said:

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.


No cause is so noble as to allow forgoing that cause as a means of retaining it. No ideal is so great that in reaching it we should lead to its destruction.
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-05 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
1. That's so cool.

You're a brave, and smart soul!
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don954 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-05 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
2. holy shit, ALL the actions of the old king are current again..!
its just hard to imagine, King Gorge is reborn...!?
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bububjones Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-05 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I did change some stuff.
Only a few of them are direct quotes from the original Declaration, though a lot of them all I had to do was change one or two words.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-05 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
4. kicked and nominated n/t
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BobRossi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-05 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
5. Remember..
The flag is YOUR flag, it is my flag, not the government's. Shrub in no way represents OUR flag. Our flag was chosen by our founders to represent the citizens that fought and died so we could all be free. Shrub has nothing in common with our founders and refused to fight for our flag himself. That beautiful piece of cloth is bigger than any administration. When you turn your back on Ole' Glory you turn your back on those that spilled blood for a great cause, you are not turning your back on shrub.
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bububjones Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-05 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. My flag...
Unfortunently, my flag represents the Current Administration to me. I hate to turn my back on it. It was one of the most dificult dicisions I've ever made. How can I say that I nolonger care for my country? That's not what I mean to say, but I'm sure that's how some people interpret it, and I'm sorry.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-05 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. you should remember, imho
Many generations of my family have lost loved ones in defense of that flag. Most of us have. I have to fight against it becoming a negative symbol for me (and I absolutely hate red-white-and-blue on July 4th), but it is the symbol of our *people* not our government.

I do recognize your reasons for doing that, but when you get older, you may see things differently.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-05 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. My father and uncles and countless others did no such thing.
Edited on Sat Sep-24-05 01:43 PM by TankLV
They did not fight for a PIECE OF MEANINGLESS CLOTH - they fought for our CONSTITUTION and the IDEALS it REPRESENTS!

My father, bless his sole - told me so REPEATEDLY!

I never care or will ever VENERATE a piece of CLOTH - especially, just like the confederate and nazi flags before it - has come to represent the current, illegal and criminal regime!

It might have - AT ONE TIME - stood for something noble and fine - but THAT TIME HAS LONG GONE!

Not until the war criminals are removed - peacefully or forceably - from their positions of control of our country - will I ever fly or hold in esteem that piece of cloth!

Mine now sits firmly in the darkness, at the bottom of my dresser drawer, waiting for the time when I can be PROUD to fly it again!

I don't see it happening any time soon.

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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-05 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. You're splitting hairs - the Constitution is just a "piece of paper"
If you allow the enemies of this country - like George Bush - to steal our cultural symbols, we have no culture.

We must own our own culture - not abandon it to the enemy.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #14
25. The Constitution itself embodies the ideals they fought and died for
When people say they died fighting for that flag, they did not. They died fighting for the ideals that flag represents, not the flag itself. It goes the same with the document known as the US Constitution. People don't die for the parchment itself; they die for the ideals embodied in that parchment.

Taking away the flag and taking away the Constitution won't, as you assert, take away our culture. As long as people still believe in freedom, then that is a piece of our culture that still endures regardless if there is a tyranny in the land.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. I didn't say it would "take away our culture"
Edited on Sun Sep-25-05 01:36 PM by melody
No one is suggesting you must embrace these symbols, just to understand why those of us who still consider them of value do so.

We who support the symbols and defend them should not be subjected to abuse by those who consider them against their own belief systems. The culture belongs to us, not to the enemy.

My initial post was just pointing out that some people still consider the symbols of value and will therefore argue against defacing them. Certainly we should have a voice in court, too.

As for your comments regards the Constitution, see my other recent post.
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wellstone_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-05 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. I served to defend the constitution---not the "flag"
the flag is a symbol---originally to ID combatants on the battlefield. I was asked to take an oath to the Constitution of the U.S. not the flag. The overwhelming campaign about flag piety has become ridiculous---particularly when it bothers no one that my super patriot neighbors fly it in all weather and in darkness in contravention of the code. Oh, and the tattered filthy one on their car antenna!

A Flag is a symbol of the nation and of the government of that nation. By extension it is a symbol of the people but the soul of the people of the US is the Constitution. I'll stand for that but not the daily loyalty oath over the flag some fetishize.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-05 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. What flag piety?
I'm not talking about the cloth itself - burn it all you like. It's not worth anything if you can't burn it. I'm talking about the symbol. The flag is a symbol. The Constitution is a symbol. These aren't just things you can pick up and hold.

As it is, do whatever you like in whatever way, so long as it hurts no one, but be prepared for people like me to take issue.

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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. I'll quibble.
The flag is most definitely a symbol.

The U.S. Constitution is not. The U.S. Constitution is something you can pick up and hold. It's also supposed to be a blueprint for our government and the yardstick by which we measure the worth of our laws. The U.S. Constitution is our government, not a symbol of it.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #20
32. The concept behind the Constitution is ongoing and not confined to paper
There are, in fact, numerous copies of the Constitution. It is evolving and on-going. One could easily discount the worth of the Constitution by saying "yes, but it has been coopted", etc.

One might argue that the information on the flag (in terms of abstract symbols) is as powerful as the literal information on the Constitution.

My point is that we who want to should still be comfortable defending the symbols of our culture without being likened to wingnuts, et al. They are *our* symbols, not theirs.

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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #16
31. Exactly.
I also served to defend the Constitution. I am doing that now by organizing against the Patriot Act in the state that I live.

This student can do what he likes. He is free to express himself as he chooses. I defend his right.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. so do I, but he shouldn't be surprised to have negative reactions HERE
...is my point.

I'm very tired of my liberal brothers and sisters being embarrassed of being American. We have no reason to be. Bush and his ilk have every reason to be embarrassed, however.
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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. I am not sure that we disagree.
Do we?
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Nope, I was just beating a dead horse... a hobby of mine lol
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #6
21. Some people Will interpret it that way...and will you have the chance
Edited on Sun Sep-25-05 08:07 AM by mcscajun
to explain Your Reasons to each and every one of them? Not likely. You discredit Democrats to those people.

Not saying the pledge is one thing, not standing for it another, but to turn your back on the flag is to relinquish it to Bush and his ilk, and to disrespect everyone who has ever fought for it or died for it in legitimate wars.

We should be Taking BACK the Flag from those who misuse it, not turning our backs ON it.
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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
27. They are blinded.
It's blind patriotism without any independent thought. You should be concerned about what they think, because they are the future of the country. Keep at it. Keep explaining yourself. Show them how King George has fundamentally altered their rights and future. Continue showing them how he is a tyrant, dealing in a system of death, destruction, and corruption. And show them how he is putting people and laws into place to keep this system in place forever.

Don't be sorry about anything you do. You are doing well.
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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
29. Actually...
it's not our flag or his flag. It belongs to whoever bought it and it wasn't made by our founding fathers either. Take a closer look at the tag sometime. You will see a "Made in Taiwan" tag on it. Might as well be made in China. Because every morning they have a raising of the flag ceremony outside of their schools, teaching blind patriotism to their students.

I am not ready to tell America's youth to give up and start negotiating their causes. They are free to express themselves as they like. And this one student is a leader who is influencing others in his class.

He is doing a great job.
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
30. I have to agree
Mark Twain "Patriotism is loving your country all the time and your government
when
they deserve it"

Millions have died for this country in honor. Don't confuse the hatred for Bushit & CO and it's policies with what this country stands for. OMG, we have made so many mistakes it the past but we have tried to fix them. I have to believe that our heart were in the right place. This country is made up of 10's of millions of citizens that do the right thing when called upon. A perfect example is 9-11 and Katrina. I live 1/2 mile from the 2nd largest Red Cross call center. I have called twice to volunteer for a few hours in the evening and IT IS FULL and they have plenty of volunteers.
I am probabably one of the few on here that does not support Flad burning. Bash our leaders all you want, but leave the flag alone.
*********Rant over!!
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-05 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
7. That's too bad. GW Bush and his administration are NOT the US.
That flag and this great country will be around long after Bush and his cronies are just a bad memory.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-05 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Agree NYC Girl
Could we possibly make it any easier for the other side to beat us?

With friends like these, ....
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djeseru Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-05 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
8. Nominated. n/t
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LandOLincoln Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-05 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
10. TAKE IT BACK, Don't turn your back on it. Otherwise you're
Edited on Sat Sep-24-05 01:03 PM by LandOLincoln
just walking right into their trap.

THINK, man. Damn....

Find U.S. manufactured flags (or make them yourself if you can't find any of U.S. manufacture) and fly them proudly, right alongside your Kerry or Clark or Kucinich or Edwards or Feingold stickers.

TAKE IT BACK. TAKE IT BACK. TAKE IT BACK.
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lawwolf Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-05 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I agree
It's actions like that they they use to say we are un-American, or un-patriotic. No need to give them any ammo.
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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
28. Don't worry about it.
You can just disown him, like Howard Dean disowned Lynne Stewart.
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Humor_In_Cuneiform Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-05 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
15. While very understandable, it is a double edged sword to
take such an action.

Decades ago similar things were done, and it did tend to alienate without increasing understanding or communication.

Sometimes it becomes a question of making a statement, which because of its emotional impact for some people (maybe the ones we want to reach) is like "preaching to the choir."

Some people, maybe a lot, will never get to the message.

On the other hand it will draw attention, which is one of your/our purposes.

Personally, I would not take such action now.

How about having an upside down flag, the signal for distress, instead?

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LandOLincoln Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-05 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. HinC, I understand your concerns, but believe firmly
that we need to forget the nuances of flag-flying and simply wipe those traitorous bastards off the map. Right now--and since 9/11, if I remember correctly--they own the franchise.

In the meantime, Wes and John Kerry and other Dems have attempted to take back that premiere American symbol, but without much success.

It's time we forgot about nuance and even history and just do it. Fuck nuance. Fuck history (and I say that as a 1/8 Comanche). I'm not kidding. We quibble over nuance while they ride roughshod over us every time.

We need to take it back. We need to do it NOW, and anyone who whines or equivocates needs to STFU. They're just too damn pusillanimous for any use, IMHO. :hi:
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Humor_In_Cuneiform Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. I totally agree with
"...simply wipe those traitorous bastards off the map. Right now--and since 9/11, if I remember correctly--they own the franchise..."

I do think Wes has had some success in reclaiming the flag and patriotism for the Democratic party.

I loved the essay named something like A Campaign To Remember, about his campaign.

:hi:
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Atlanta Progressive Donating Member (20 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
22. I appreciate your passion, but...
I think it takes more strength of character to fight for the ideals of our country, depspite the current regime, than to turn one's back.

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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
23. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if this post turned up on FR
It's just the kind of raw meat they look for. Positive responses are also grist for the RW 'liberals are traitors' mill.
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chefgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Kind of what I was thinking
In fact, I might even suggest something a bit more sinister, mcscajun, IF I were the suspicious type.

I also have to agree with the posters, who I'm glad to see in this thread, saying that to turn your back on the flag is to surrender it to the little idiot and his cronies. NEVER!

-chef-
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. I might just Be That "suspicious type" ... but again...
I ain't sayin'

:)
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dogman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
26. Bush and his cronies turn their back on the flag except during the pledge.
They do however recognize the symbolism of the flag and use it to their advantage. They also are able to use disrespect of the flag to their advantage also. Whose use of symbolism is carrying the majority to their purpose? If the goal is is to set yourself aside from the rest to make a statement, fine. Is that statement effective? Not likely.
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
38. My son told me the other day that he would not salute the flag
or say the Pledge of Allegiance because he felt similarly to you. He felt as if the country we have now was no longer his country.

I told him that I think his COUNTRY needs him more than ever now. His COUNTRY is under attack from those who are using it instead of cherishing and protecting it. His COUNTRY has done nothing wrong and does not deserve to be disrespected.

He doesn't have to respect the President. Respect is earned and we each decide who has done what it takes to earn our respect. If Bush hasn't done that for him, fine. He hasn't done it for me, either.

But the COUNTRY, this collection of ideals and people and hope, deserves as much help and respect as it can get. The flag represents the people. Bush does not. In any way.
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