"Jihoward: Howard Dean, Suicide Bomber" by Slate's William Saletan

[flpoljunkie]

http://slate.msn.com/id/2093083/

Sunday morning, the Deaniacs were at it again. On ABC's This Week, Dean campaign manager Joe Trippi said Dean was running against the Democratic "establishment." Pressed to define the members of this "establishment," Trippi bobbed and weaved. Eventually, he said, "I'm talking about Dick Gephardt, John Kerry, and Joe Lieberman."

Either all this stuff from the Dean campaign about the establishment is an attack on the Clintonian center, or it's the usual meaningless blather that politicians toss to crowds to make themselves look nonpolitical. Either way, it's fake. I think it's blather, but the more Dean talks about it and applies it to various issues, the more it looks like an attack on the center. And if that's the mission Dean has in mind, Democrats would be well-advised to jump off his truck before he blows it up.

Dean often says Democrats can't win by running as "Bush lite." Thursday, he accused "Washington Democrats" of failing to oppose President Bush more diametrically on Iraq, tax cuts, and education. "The Democratic Party has to offer a clear alternative," he argued. Toward that end, Dean rejects nearly every proposition or policy put forward by Bush. "We are no safer today than we were the day the planes struck at the World Trade Center," Dean said Thursday, adding that the capture of Saddam Hussein "does not mean that this president—or the Washington Democrats—can declare victory in the war on terror."

Picture that debate next year: On one side, Bush, the Washington Democrats, support for some tax cuts, relief at Saddam's capture, and the belief that by toppling the Taliban, if not Saddam, we're safer today than we were on 9/11. On the other side, Howard Dean.

...more...

[KissMyAsscroft]

1. Debate?

What planet does this guy live on?

Howard Dean would hand Bush his ass in any real debate.

Bush is not going to debate Dean unless it is rigged in his favor, and if Bush refuses a real debate Dean is going to debate an empty chair on live TV! LOL!

Go Dean!

[mike_c]

5. lol..., Bush* would only debate ANY of the dem candidates after...

...giving them some of whatever Saddam Hussein mainlines these days.

Q: What's your name, Governor Dean?

A: Well, um, gee Ted, give me a minute on that one. Damn, I knew it when I came in.... Who's that guy in the chimp suit, anyway?

[mouse7]

7. My coffee table would hand Dubya his a## in a debate

Dean would do significantly better that just that I believe.

[zulchzulu]

51. Dean seems a little scared and won't debate Kerry

Bush would wipe Dean off the floor. I've never been impressed with Dean as a debater. He would gaffe his way into the disastrous GOP landslide.

The first thing Dean might want to get are Dukakis' elevator shoes to face the towering 5'10" Bush at the other podium.

If Dean fans are so allured that their man is such a fine debater, why are they so uncourageous to have him face Kerry in a debate about national security?

Is the excuse a bad back or no spine?

[ibegurpard]

65. The excuse is there are still 6 other candidates in the race

Many of them polling above Kerry. Who does Kerry think he is to be able to demand a one-on-one debate?

[Clark Edwards]

2. Yes, I saw Trippi on ABC's This Week.

This article describes the segment well...except I thought Trippi was going to start going into a Nixonian sweat!

[neuvocat]

3. It is because of this

sort of thing that I don't care for Dean. He's supposed to be the outsider and yet he's doing whatever he thinks it will take to become an insider.

Bush ran on that very same anti-Clinton-outsider platform and it flopped. Now Dean is doing the same thing in rebuking Bill Clinton and he's supposed to be different somehow?

[Jerseycoa]

4. Yep, thanks nt

[moz4prez]

6. wow! William Saletan!

wasn't this guy head-over-heels in love with Dean just, like, a week ago?

[KittyWampus]

8. The Department Of Homeland Security Was A Democratic Party Concept

which Junior stole, violated by not giving the employies civil servant protections and undercut by underfunding.

HOwever, it was an essential Department and the Democrats that Howard Dean so despise deserve credit.

[rapier]

9. Izvestia vs Pravda

I am an agnostic on Dean.

Saletan is just punching his ticket. That ticket is punched by displaying total contempt for any Democratic candidate, by any means necessary, so as to ingratiate himself with the powers that be. He would have fit right in at Izvestia.

People always point to Pravda as the height of corrupt journalism and in a sense they are right since it was the peoples daily. But Izvestia was the party organ, the party paper. From there sprang the offical party line. Saletan with his faux above the fry style is the perfect transmitter of that line.

Other transmitters of The Party line abound. It matters not a whit which Democratic candidate runs in the election. He will be despised by a gigantic majority of commentators and damned by most 'reporters'. So it goes.

[windansea]

11. time for you to get some religion!

he's about to send us all down the tube.......

[clarknyc]

14. So you say.

I think you're wrong. Very wrong.

[RetroLounge]

54. Well then, have a nice trip

eom

[quinnox]

10. Wow, this is a surprise coming from Saletan

I guess Dean's magic must have worn off him. In the past, he has written many ardent pro-Dean pieces. A sign to come for Dean's campaign, no doubt.

[ibegurpard]

12. Are you kidding?

Not a surprise at all. He's written several Dean hit-pieces.

[quinnox]

15. No kidding

In fact, I think just recently there was a piece he wrote talking about how the capture of Hussein wasn't necessarily bad for Dean's campaign.

[WilliamPitt]

13. THIS is what scares me, folks

You can run two ways in the primaries:

1) You can run to the left without giving away the store, i.e without killing your chances with the moderates and independents once you reach the general; or,

2) You can run to the left and attack the crap out of the moderates and independents to really, really fire up the base, which will barnstorm you through the primaries to the nomination.

Most candidates do #1, because that path makes a lot more sense. Dean, however, has been taking the #2 path. That's why he's winning; to the base, he looks like a champion, gets them all charged up, and this will help him storm through the primaries.

Unfortunately, he will reap the whirlwind because of this, and so will the rest of us.

[ibegurpard]

16. Have you seen some interesting results from this latest poll?

<snip> Although he is known as the candidate of the antiwar Democrats, Dean draws roughly equal support from Democrats who believe that the war in Iraq was not worth the cost and from those who believe it was, another sign of his broadening support. A solid majority (60 percent) of Democrats continue to say they believe the United States should not have gone to war.

But Dean's strength against his rivals masks how little Democratic voters know about him. More than half of Democrats surveyed said they know "hardly anything" or "nothing" about Dean's experience or leadership capabilities and his positions on the issues.

The Post-ABC poll suggests that Dean's recent surge has come disproportionately from Democrats who do not closely identify with their party. In mid-October, Dean claimed the support of one in six Democratic-leaning independents and an equal proportion of party rank-and-file. Today, he gets significantly more support from independent Democrats (35 percent) than he does from party faithful (26 percent). <snip>

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22493-2003Dec22.html

Not all positive to be sure but the highlighted portion shows a very intriguing picture, in my opinion.

[poskonig]

18. Beat me to it!

:bounce:

[snyttri]

23. Dean's recent surge may represent the bandwagon effect. When people

who have picked his name in the polls because it's trendy find out about his record they may regret their choice.

The GOP could have a field day with black and white Dean lies on tape; such as Dean's denial that he used a line Carville wrote for him for a TV show in a debate and Dean's repeated heated denials on This Week with George Stephanopoulos that he had been a "strong" supporter of NAFTA, when Dean had written that he was a "very strong" supporter of NAFTA.

In a veracity contest against Bush, Dean would unfortunately come in a weak second in public opinion.

[ibegurpard]

31. They'll do that to everyone

And when they're through picking through someone's record and distorting every last detail they'll MAKE STUFF UP! Dean is doing something right here...he's apparently attracting the very kind of voters that naysayers said he risked driving away.

[snyttri]

47. With Dean they don't have to make anything up. They can show the HBO

show, then the Democratic debate with identical line, then Dean's denial that he got the line he used in the debate from the HBO show.
Devastating.

And it seems to be in Dean's character to go on making new ones no matter how much experience he gets. He recently denied, as I recall, ever saying that Sadaam Hussein posed a danger to the U.S., when he was already on tape on Face the Nation as saying that Sadaam posed a threat to the U.S..

Dean will not be able to portray himself as any new kind of politician when he is already on both sides of every issue and when his temperament keeps getting him into fresh trouble.

[stickdog]

68. Dean told the truth. And they ain't giving the truth any free commercials.

You know what worries me?

A gutless opposition party.

[KittyWampus]

29. Quote Says People Who Support Dean Are UNINFORMED

and it's funny that you highlight the FOLLOWING quote and ignore what comes before it:

"But Dean's strength against his rivals masks how little Democratic voters know about him. More than half of Democrats surveyed said they know "hardly anything" or "nothing" about Dean's experience or leadership capabilities and his positions on the issues"

We are talking nothing but name recognition and that has nothing to do with policies or identification.

[ibegurpard]

34. Please tell me how that is different from many of your average

"swing voters?"

[bhunt70]

37. swing voters are usually informed...

on issues that matter to them.

[ibegurpard]

41. That is debatable

n/t

[stickdog]

69. Yes.

They are American.

[QC]

38. Another interesting piece of info from that poll....

As a candidate in the general election, Dean starts well behind Bush in the public's estimation. In an early test of strength, 55 percent of those surveyed said that if the election were held today, they would vote to reelect the president, and 37 percent said they would favor Dean. No other Democrat was tested against Bush in the Post-ABC poll.

For some reason this part is not getting spread around anywhere near as much as the rest of the story.

[ibegurpard]

45. I said not all of it was good

AND there ISN'T a Democrat right now who comes out on top of Bush. So at this point in time, this doesn't worry me.

[LouisFC]

58. Independents

"31 percent of registered Democrats said they favored Dean, up from 20 percent a week ago and 15 percent in October. No other Democrat reached double digits."

Was there another poll that included independents?

[poskonig]

17. Not factual.

Dean does better among independents and independent-leaning Democrats; while Clark and Kerry do better with hardcore liberals.

[KittyWampus]

30. Wrong- Dean Does Better With Uniformed People

who rely on name recognition to form an "opinion".

"But Dean's strength against his rivals masks how little Democratic voters know about him. More than half of Democrats surveyed said they know "hardly anything" or "nothing" about Dean's experience or leadership capabilities and his positions on the issues"

[stickdog]

70. So Dean's popular with Americans?

As if the same couldn't be said about any fronrunning opposition candidate at this point in the contest.

[clarknyc]

19. Here's the point

What most Dean detractors don't get is that he's building an expanded base, not just being content with the small, disaffected turnout of the recent elections. Can he do it? I don't know, but we're not going to win this time by trying to appeal to the same swing voters as Bush. We need to attempt something else. An end-run around the middle may or may not work, but it may be our only hope. I don't think the nuanced difference between the two parties is enough of a distinction to win in 2004. It's a risk, I realize, but politics as usual isn't going to cut it.

Respectfully.

[clarknyc]

22. One more thing

I'd be really interested to hear how you think the other candidates will be able to appeal to the middle with conviction enough to peel away the necessary votes from Bush for victory.

Really, all I want is Bush out of the White House, as do you. I think that we just differ as to how that's best acheived.

[Paragon]

42. Since we're debating prudent politics...

...how smart is it to bash Dean so fiercely in a public forum and then expect to be an advocate for him later?

Anything you say on his behalf will be countered with "you said he'd reap the whirlwind" or any one of your other searchable hatchet jobs?

There's a reason why left-leaning authors/journalists try to stay somewhat neutral before the outcome is obvious. I'd hoped you wouldn't have had to learn this the hard way.

As such, I'm not inclined to fear the usual harbingers of doom from you any more than I would from the moranic William Saletan.

[WilliamPitt]

55. Thanks, Yoda

:eyes:

[Paragon]

61. "THIS is what scares me, folks"

Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you.

The dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see the future is.

You must unlearn what you have learned.

[thinkahead]

50. simplistic Will

there are more than two ways to run in the primaries. I think it's safe to say Dean has found atleast a third way. And the second we start believing what we read from Saletan (who is atleast as schizophrenic as most pundits) we are doomed.

This isn't about Conventional Wisdom, as there is no such thing. Wisdom left media (not to mention politics) a long time ago, and we can't base our fears on what one or even fifty people think will happen. It doesn't work that way.

The world is not classical, it's quantum, so rather than trying to make sense of it, you just gotta do your best to fight for what you believe - and not be afraid of the dark.

That's how progress happens.

[RetroLounge]

57. If # 2 is so great and surefire way of winning the primary

funny it hasn't been used before. or has it?

So sad when Dems succumb to fear...

THIS is why Dean is winning. He has no fear of the BFEE and kicks their ass at every chance, while the other Dems do rose garden appearances and vote for his war. Sorry, the only whirlwind that's being reaped is the one caused by the bush appeasers in pink tutus.

[stickdog]

67. It scares you if we run a candidate who tells the truth forcefully.

It scares me a lot more if we don't.

[Fovea]

20. Picture that debate next year:

I see that debate a lot differently--

The effects of the Norquistian poison pill and the Iraq
debt will render all social support on the edge of collapse.
Every family will feel the effect.

Saddam's capture will turn into Saddam's legal debacle or show trial and show execution under Shi`ite jurisdiction. That will not play well with many Sunnis.

The taliban and al qaeda are not toppled, merely decimated. Their resulting desparation will cause them to over reach in colorful (red, mostly) displays of terror against all those they percieve as representing American interests in their region. In a traditional war, this would weaken the resistance. This is not a traditional war.

I expect an insurrection in Saudi Arabia. I expect that the Kurds will be very troublesome indeed if Bush is screwing them, and if he isn't expect trouble with Turkey and Syria.

I think that their will be a shift from asymmetrical warfare based on terror to become less important than asymmetrical warfare based on resource and goal denial.

If the Islamists percieve that Bush's goals are resource hegemony and cultural warfare against the Islamist cultural-political base, then it will impliment strategies that increase the cost of those goals to unacceptable levels. That would suggest that they percieve a value in denying the Bush strategists a paradigm that is worth repeating such as Iraq has become. Clearly the Bush's met their own initial goals.

They became sole executor of Iraqs resources. They drained off the Saudi Islamist resources into the Iraq resistance, instead of re forming al Qaeda and reattacking the on our domestic front. But they weakened their association with the Saudi royal family by exposing it to greater danger from within. They further militarized the Arab street. This instability has resulted in a 'de-laminating' of several regional cultural and governmental coalitions. Pakistan, in particular, does not look like a government capible of implementing a single coherent policy without bloody civil war, which in the case of instability might well trigger a pre-emptive strike on India.

The world of next summer will not look more secure than today. Further, one should ask weather you feel safer today than you did four years ago? It is clear that Bush and Cheney came to office with a game plan and agenda. It involved breaking parts of America for fun and profit.

It involves despiriting American society's underclass (all those at the 65% of wealth, aka the middle/working classes) into accepting military service as a form of private employment. We may not have a draft. We may have a Brown and Root soup kitchen/recruiting center in every city though.

It involves breaking the ethical constraints that prevent government from acting as an honest broker of the public interest. We are already there.

What stands against it? A critical mass of awareness. If the Democratic party cannot raise that awareness, it IS as irrelevant as Rove says it is.

And that is where we come in, lighting a fire under the lumpen centrists, and outright 5th columnists of corporatism. If we all do our duty, by next year, people will not be talking about Jon Benet Ramsey, Michael Jackson, drugs, any of the other smothering stories of the whorish media. They will be chatting in the restaurants, online forums, church meetings, and everywhere they are still allowed to associate. When it gets really bad, watch for the Red alert/Op Northwood events to start popping up in key constituencies.

But the rovian process of politicizing *everything* has already galvanized the formerly multi polar world into surprizingly unified action against us.

The EU victory over steel is also the proof of a paradigm. That is the idea that Bush needs key states support, if he hopes to get even close enough to steal the election. What the EU, and hence the world now knows is that Bush can be attacked politically on the domestic front, with targeted attacks that shed no blood, but cost Bush votes. Expect to see a lot more of it in the next year from our trading partners in Russia, China, and India.

But what will *really* hurt is the effect of al Saud capitulating negotiating with the Islamists. We will end up paying a lot more than $2.50/gal by that point.

[jaysunb]

25. Great post !!!

very well thought out and accurate. :toast:

[killbotfactory]

21. Seems like Dean is just calling it like it is...

I guess that might make some people uncomfortable... you know, saying that capturing an ex-dictator who has nothing to do with the war on terrorism, actually didn't make us safer from terrorism.

I guess Dean should start pandering to fox news viewers... like Lieberman.

[zulchzulu]

56. Dean has been on Faux Snooze plenty of times

If he really was for breaking up Fox, he would never go on the network.

Then again, Dean wants it both ways. Again and again and again...

[jaysunb]

24. Mr. Saletan forgets to mention

That Al Gore won the last election, so evidently whatever his message, the majority of the voters bought it.






The third problem is that it's a demonstrable failure. Three years ago, Al Gore's pollster conducted a survey to show that Gore's "people vs. the powerful" populism hadn't hurt him. The survey showed the opposite. Given a list of 15 reasons to vote for Gore, of which each respondent could choose three, 12 percent of respondents chose "his willingness to stand up to the HMOs, drug and oil companies." Given a list of 16 reasons to vote against Gore, 17 percent chose "his attacks on HMOs, drug and oil companies." For those of you keeping score at home, that's a net loss.

[AWD]

26. The hell with the rules, I guess.....

Nicknames for Democratic candiates, their supporters, or their opponents are no longer permitted anywhere on Democratic Underground.

I guess that no longer is in effect with terms like "Jihoward" and "Deaniacs", huh????

[windansea]

28. nice try but

that's the name of the article

[AWD]

32. The rule says "NO nicknames"

..and it says "ANYWHERE on DU"

Where does it say "except for when it;s in an article."

I guess I'll go find articles that use derogatory nicknames for other candidates. It's allowed now, I see.

[windansea]

39. posted articles

are not subject to editing...I would presume

[La_Serpiente]

27. I know the people at the New Republic dislike Dean

http://www.tnr.com/deanophobe.mhtml

They always give him poor grades in the primary. They like what he has done with the internet, but that is all the praise he gets.

Note: I don't read the New Republic simply because they are DINOS in my opinion.

[bhunt70]

35. I just wanted to use this quote.

"But Dean's strength against his rivals masks how little Democratic voters know about him. More than half of Democrats surveyed said they know "hardly anything" or "nothing" about Dean's experience or leadership capabilities and his positions on the issues."

from an article a poster above me wrote.


Doesn't anyone else think this is scary?

[ibegurpard]

44. Not at all

You forget we're talking about the American electorate. Not just the stupid people but the people who don't have time or interest to follow politics that closely. Do you honestly expect that the people referred to in your quote would be any better informed about a different candidate had he or she been leading in this poll?

[quinnox]

40. Yea, it seems they do but Saletan works

for MSN's Slate magazine.

*Please ignore if you were just tossing out a random comment, I wasn't sure if you were referencing Saletan or his article.

[helleborient]

33. Here's Saletan on Dean last June

On domestic issues, Dean beats the rest of the presidential field hands down. He knows the nooks and crannies of all the policy debates. He's been an executive. He's principled where he ought to be principled and pragmatic where he ought to be pragmatic. He hurls fire and brimstone with the best of them. He isn't one of those wishy-washy liberals who inspire contempt on both the left and the right. And he states his views in a way that everyone can understand and most people can support.

[windansea]

36. I guess Saletan has "evolved" n/t

[helleborient]

43. Oh, but Kerry supporters don't allow that...

If Dean's position evolves, Kerry supporters insist it's a lie.

So is Saletan lying? Or is there a double standard here?

[windansea]

46. based on the article

I conclude Saletan has changed his mind...about Dean

no linkage to Kerry...

[helleborient]

48. Other than your strong support for Kerry...along with the other sand ID

[windansea]

53. sandansea is from Oregon

i am from California

next??

[thinkahead]

52. although Saletan reminds me of Kerry

in the sense that he's always talking about Dean

[zulchzulu]

60. Nonsense

Kerry talks about the issues and his solutions.

The only time he mentions Dean is when he wants to straighten the record about the lies that Dean spews about him and the other candidates.

I don't blame him for defending himself against a pathological liar.

[thinkahead]

62. Kerry could not wait to get on TV

the day Saddam was captured to re-embrace his position on IWR - and trash Dean. I sat there and listened to him say, "this isn't about politics, but Howard Dean..."

Dean is always on Kerry's mind, and never far from a mention whenever he gets the chance.

[snyttri]

49. Many of the people trashing Dean here now may have had a positive

opinion of him last spring. Dean has done a lot to change Democrats' minds about whether he is principled when he should be principled and
pragmatic when he should be pragmatic.

"At a news conference after the speech, Dean was asked repeatedly about a Washington Post report that detailed instances in which his comments on a variety of subjects proved to be untrue or misleading. Dean did not address the article's specifics, but said voters can believe him "or they can believe the Washington Post."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A9661-2003Dec17.html

[Gloria]

64. Snyttri, you are correct..I flirted with Dean but was finally unconvinced

And once Clark entered the race, after about two months of consideration, I went with him. He seemed to combine anger with solid credentials and that rather unique background of military and diplomatic experience.

If people would get off their one-note song and look more closely, they might find themselves considering a switch.


"Many of the people trashing Dean here now may have had a positive"
Posted by snyttri
opinion of him last spring. Dean has done a lot to change Democrats' minds about whether he is principled when he should be principled and
pragmatic when he should be pragmatic."

[zulchzulu]

59. Saletan doesn't have his blinders on anymore

Good for him.

[clarknyc]

63. Saletan is an equal opportunity basher

Rest assured that if your candidate climbs in the polls, Saletan will invent an attack in that direction. Will his blinders be off or will he be an asshole at that point?

[stickdog]

66. "On one side PNAC lies, corporate whores like me & Bush bs. On the other,

the TRUTH."

[oasis]

71. Taking on the Democratic Party "establishment" can wait. Trippi is

getting too power hungry. He should focus on winning the White House.