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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 07:05 PM
Original message
Joshua Frank: Democrats virtually identical to Republican counterparts
I don't totally agree with Frank, but I think he makes some points we'd do well to consider. Democrats' continued support of the disastrous Iraq War seems inexplicable. In addition, I was finishing up What's the Matter with Kansas: How Conservatives Won the Heart of America last night, and thought Thomas Frank's (no relation) criticism of the Democrats for abandoning middle class economic issues in order to curry favor with business was pretty much on point. It's worth asking whether the party has really gained all that much from its journey to the right. The loss of the White House, the loss of Congress, the loss of the Supreme Court might suggest to reasonable people it's time to go left.

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/061105Zeese/061105zeese.html

Interview with Joshua Frank
Electoral politics and the war: Lessons from 2004 and what the anti-war movement should do in 2006


<edit>

Joshua Frank: I learned a lot from the 2004 elections and this book is my attempt to put it all together and make sense of what went down. In "Left Out!" I shovel through the muck of our current political arrangement, where progressives and those on the left are continually told that we have real options within the so-called two-party system. Many told us during the 2004 elections that George W. Bush was so darn bad that we had to, just had to, vote for John Kerry. There was no other choice. The polluted climate, as you well know, was "Anybody But Bush." Or better put, "Nobody But Kerry." Hatred of Bush drove the support for Kerry. We had buses to Ohio, we had DVD parties, and all were targeting Bush rather than trumpeting Kerry. That should have been sign number one that the Democrats were on the wrong path. The candidacies of Ralph Nader and even that of the Green Party's David Cobb were seen as far too dangerous to support in the states that could have actually put pressure on Kerry (i.e. swing-states) to take on issues we believed in. The strategy, endorsed by so many respected activists and intellectuals on the left, including Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, Medea Benjamin, Norman Solomon, to name just a few - was all about expediting the process of removing Bush from office. Not issues.

Their strategy was a miserable failure, however. The Democratic alternatives were grossly inadequate. The left asked absolutely nothing of Kerry and guess what? They got absolutely nothing in return. That's what you get when you give someone's candidacy unconditional support, despite the fact that the Democrats mirrored Bush on so many crucial issues—from the economy to civil liberties to trade to foreign policy to the environment. It was textbook lesser-evilism and it was a loser. The left had succumbed to the plague of ABB. Their unconditional support made Kerry worse and undermined everything the left supposedly stood for. And this is where I think we must be crystal clear as to what the costs of expedient choices are, even if the benefits seem predominant. As I argue in "Left Out!," backing the lesser-evil, like the majority of liberals and lefties did in 2004, keeps the whole political pendulum in the US swinging to the right. It derails social movements, helps elect the opposition, and undermines democracy. This backwards logic allows the Democrats and Republicans to control the discourse of American politics and silences any voices that may be calling for genuine change.

Despite all this, there are still many that are not convinced that the Democrats are virtually identical to their Republican counterparts. So to argue this point, I focus a bit on one Democrat whom many argue represents the liberal end of the respectable mainstream Democratic Party—and that's DNC chairman Howard Dean. At this time Dean, along with Barak Obama, is thought to be a beacon of hope within the Democratic establishment. He wants to transform the party. He wants to empower the grassroots. But there's a catch, and that's that Howard Dean really doesn't disagree with his party's own platform, which is virtually the same as the Republican's. So his quest for change is not grounded in any ideological divergence. No Dean's "new" path is a strategic one. He simply wants to corral all the progressives into the Democratic fold. He certainly doesn't want them to leave the party and go join up with some progressive third party. And that is really what Dean's job is now: keep the party activists in line while he cashes their checks. Take their money and don't let them stray. Because when and if they ever do, real change could be possible. And lord knows that nobody in power out in Washington wants that to happen. They like business just the way it is.

Zeese: What happened to the anti-war issue in 2004? We had developed a large base of activists, massive demonstrations, the war was going down hill—indeed all of our worst predictions were coming true during the presidential campaign—yet the anti-war issue was not on the agenda during the presidential race. What happened?

Frank: What happened was the anti-war movement supported a pro-war candidate, which, not surprisingly, was an utter disaster. How can a movement back a candidate that supports everything it opposes? There is no question that during the campaign John Kerry was a relentless warmonger, as William Safire put it. Kerry was the newest neocon who even out-hawked Bush. True enough. Most people that supported Kerry didn't support his position on the Iraq war, which was shown by a USA Today poll taken during the Democratic convention in Boston.

more...

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/engel9.html

Hephalumps and Woozels:
A Review of Joshua Frank's Left Out


<edit>

On nearly every issue, Kerry was more or less in agreement with Bush in that the "issue" whatever it was, had to be dealt with firmly, with grave war metaphors and tough talk. The only difference was the way in which these numerous "wars" would be fought – Kerry's strategy for winning wars against diseases, ideologies, methodologies, nouns, adjectives, adverbial clauses, was somehow better, less costly and smarter than Bush's.

Of course, this is nothing new. "McCarthyism" played itself out during a Democrat's tenure, as did the first years of heavy fighting/bombing of the Viet Nam war. But even Lyndon Johnson had the liberal fig leaf of the "Great Society" to balance his war mongering. The real leap of bad-faith for the Democrats, the poisoning of the well which will never yield potable water again but must be abandoned for a fresher source, began with the first term of Bill Clinton.

Clinton's "welfare reform" forced single mothers to work minimum wage jobs without the option of child-care or other crucial services. Clinton's NAFTA agreement sent millions of American jobs across the border and overseas. Clinton began the first major assault against the Bill of Rights, which would culminate in the USA PATRIOT ACT under Bush, when he signed the "Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act" in 1996. In addition to bombing Iraq several times, bombing the Sudan, and launching the planet's first "Humanitarian War" in Bosnia, the Clinton Administration was responsible for well over half a million Iraqi deaths, according to former Secretary of State Madeline "It Was Worth It" Albright, due to lack of medicine and other necessities blocked by sanctions. More money was spent on PIS and more Americans went to prison (especially Americans of Color) under Clinton than under Reagan or Bush I.

The list of Clinton's offenses against the people and environment of the U.S. and the world is long and painful to read, but Frank explores this list of swindles and privations worthy of the most right-wing of Republicans, worthy of and indeed expanded upon by George W. Bush. The Democratic Party is not the party of "the people," it's just not the party in control, or at least, not the party with a president in office. It lost the past two presidential elections, and many House and Senate seats, by following the pro-war, pro-corporate, anti-environment, destructive lead of the Republicans while trying to maintain the charade that it's the "party of the people."

more...





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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. John Kerry's positions on the environment, economy, and
Edited on Wed Jun-29-05 07:19 PM by Eric J in MN
civil liberties are all different from Bush's.

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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. Details, details
why ruin a perfectly good theory with the facts?

Esp. environmentally. For fuck's sake, Kerry's an accomplished environmentalist who, with Wellstone, was able to stop the drilling in ANWR a couple of years ago. Can you picture Mr. "Clear Skies" giving two shits about the environment.

Franks may have a point about the culture of Kansas, but he's talking out his butt here.
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kwolf68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-30-05 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #18
37. Really

I was buying this until we got to the environment part. That statement alone saps the credibility of the writer.
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lojasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. Dead on.....every point. EOM
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Let's compare.
Bush- sent people to execution as governor, even if their attorneys slept through their trials.

Kerry- against the death penalty except for terrorists.

Bush- believes he can label any one of us an "enemy combatant" and lock us up for the rest of our lives without access to our families or an attornery (The Jose Padilla Case)

Kerry- due process of law

Bush- drill in ANWR and don't raise CAFE for cars.

Kerry- don't drill in ANWR and do raise CAFE

Bush- tax cuts for the rich

Kerry- raise taxes on the rich




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lojasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. He's talking about the positions that were pushed during the campaign
Kerry tried so damn hard to trianulate to the right it was damned painful to watch. The left WAS EXPECTED to toe the line and vote for him, regardless of his vote to let Bush attack Iraq, against the rule of law, and regardless of his decision to allow bush to strip americans of their civil rights.

he also voted for the patriot act, so his "position" on the rule of law doesn't really matter.

I will never again be AB(X) I strongly feel that I'll be voting green in november of 2008
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I think Kerry's strategy worked, and there had been an
honest vote-count then he'd be president now.
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lojasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Well, regardless, the left was fucked by Kerry's strategy
Forced to vote against their own interests.

And upon the "strategy worked" point, we must agree to disagree. There were not five million stolen votes, in my opinion.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. It wasn't just Kerry's strategy that was foolish
it was the fact he is a Senator with a voting history along with his failure to keep it simple when talking to the people.
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confludemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. A voting history that was pretty equivocal on several issues.
Low attendance record, 30-40% rating by various progressive groups. Very middle of the road. Not truly a progressive but a consumate "positioner". And he tried that "maneuver or jockey for the right position" tactic with Iraq, it failed and it has wrecked him as a viable leadership candidate. And now he is sticking with his failed 2004 position of I can do it better and is hitching that to a policy that is in a flaming tailspin.
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lojasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-30-05 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #17
35. part of his strategy was use of language.....
just one of his many failures, IMO.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-30-05 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #12
40. Was the left fucked, or did the left fuck the campaign
By trying to wage their own shadow campaign AGAINST Bush, without finding reasons to be FOR Kerry.

Negative campaigns don't work. Ask Dole.

The left were not voting against their self interest. It has been said in this thread that we're not discussing Kerry's actual positions, but his positions during the campaign. Well, for one thing, I hear these pundits say he didn't discuss this or that issue, only to be able to quote chapter and verse of instances where he did, but they weren't listening apparently.

If we talk about Kerry's voting record, and what he has stood for in the Senate for 30 some years, one will see that the left was hardly "fucked." They only thought they were, for some bizarre reason.

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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-30-05 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #2
31. NOT!
:thumbsdown:
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lojasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-30-05 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. Very succinct. EOM
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
3. He is pretty close though
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
5. would we be in Iraq right now
if Gore had gotten in?

End of discussion.
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NightOwwl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. No, because there would not have been a...
September 11 to begin with.

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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
6. This begs the question
Is the Democratic Party the Party of the People, or is it just a 'kinder, gentler, corporate party?"

It's an important question, really. "Republican Lite" didn't do the job the last election...will it work the NEXT time?
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. A reminder:
This place is not the Democratic Party. It is the Democratic Underground.
I am member of the Green Party. Yeah, damn proud of that! I say again for the umpteeth time that if Progressives that are sick of the Dem (Rethug. Lite) Party would join the Green Party maybe we could have a Natl presence. Yeah, it's Catch 22.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. I understand
but things are stacked badly enough for the Democrats. Any third party--and I respect some of the positions of BOTH the Greens and the Libertarians--has about a snowball's chance in hell of gaining participation in this great experiment unless we somehow find a way to implement proportional representation.

Sucks, but that's the way it stands right now.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. Sounds like a recipe for a filibuster proof majority for Senate Repubs.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-30-05 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #21
34. That threat should work both ways.
I want progressives to take back the party from those who seem to want us all to morph into moderate Republicans. We have to figure out some way to reconnect with America on economic issues even though both the leadership of our Party and the corporate media are determined to pretend we don't exist. There is a class war and we're losing in a huge way.

At the same time, moderate Democrats can't keep saying shut up and don't rock the boat or Republicans will have even more power to dismantle America. Just as progressives have supported candidates at odds with our core beliefs, moderates are going to have to move our way, too. Cultural conservatives are extremely passionate about their misguided positions and it translates into electoral victories for the right and rich time and time again. We can't match that with DLC lukewarm crap. Kerry's insistence on pulling his punches did him absolutely no good. There's a rich tradition of progressive thought within the Democrat Party and we need to embrace it instead of pretending all answers lie in the mouthings of spokepeople for multinational corporations.

Here's an article by Thomas Frank (the "Kansas" writer, not Joshua) that does a good job of explaining why the Democrats lose and lose and seem destined to lose again:

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1105-32.htm

<edit>

The culture wars, in other words, are a way of framing the ever-powerful subject of social class. They are a way for Republicans to speak on behalf of the forgotten man without causing any problems for their core big-business constituency.

Against this militant, aggrieved, full-throated philosophy the Democrats chose to go with ... what? Their usual soft centrism, creating space for this constituency and that, taking care to antagonize no one, declining even to criticize the president, really, at their convention. And despite huge get-out-the-vote efforts and an enormous treasury, Democrats lost the battle of voter motivation before it started.

Worse: While conservatives were sharpening their sense of class victimization, Democrats had all but abandoned the field. For some time, the centrist Democratic establishment in Washington has been enamored of the notion that, since the industrial age is ending, the party must forget about blue-collar workers and their issues and embrace the "professional" class. During the 2004 campaign these new, business-friendly Democrats received high-profile assistance from idealistic tycoons and openly embraced trendy management theory. They imagined themselves the "metro" party of cool billionaires engaged in some kind of cosmic combat with the square billionaires of the "retro" Republican Party.

Yet this would have been a perfect year to give the Republicans a Trumanesque spanking for the many corporate scandals that they have countenanced and, in some ways, enabled. Taking such a stand would also have provided Democrats with a way to address and maybe even defeat the angry populism that informs the "values" issues while simultaneously mobilizing their base.

more...

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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-30-05 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #10
39. As a member of the Dem Party, I wish you would
You could work positively in the Green Party, rather than being negative in the Dem Party. If you're unhappy, then you'll make both the Dems and the Greens stronger by going where you're heart tells you to go.
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Nikki Stone 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
11. " that is really what Dean's job is now: keep the party activists in line"
And that is really what Dean's job is now: keep the party activists in line while he cashes their checks.


That is one way of explaining his "gaffes"
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democracyindanger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
13. Hilarious. One Nader drone interviewing another Nader drone
about what's wrong with the Democratic Party.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. except what they say is true. nt
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Bullcrap.
:)
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confludemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Kerry jumped on the bandwagon, took too few independent stands,
now that's bull crap, and it has cost him the viability he so hoped to preserve with each of his moves.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Bullcrap.
So you think this was an honest election? You also negate the fact that Kerry got more votes than ANY other DEMOCRAT in the history of this country.


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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
16. He is entitled to his opinions
even if he is wrong.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
19. I can't believe anyone spews this bullshit rhetoric with a straight
Edited on Wed Jun-29-05 11:19 PM by mzmolly
f-ing face ?!

These purist F-ers say "democrats" as though we all think in lock step. We have over 100 DEMOCRATS calling for an investigation into Downing Street last week in the congress alone. We had over 100 DEMOCRATS vote AGAINST THE IRAQ WAR. Anyone who lived through the past decade and can still claim this full of shit, shit needs a serious head exam. All a reasonable person has to do is actually contrast the Bush record with the Clinton record for starters.

Democrats = Republicans my arse!

Edited for profanity. ;)
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
22. Check the people voting against the war and the PATRIOT Act
All but a very few were Dems. The resistance to the neocon agenda by Dems may be inadequate, but it's all we've got. See also the recent vote on the medical marijuana amendment. Name me a single Green or Libertarian who voted against the war or the PATRIOT Act. (And no, Ron Paul doesn't count as a Libertarian. Joining the Repubs was the price he had to pay to get to make those votes.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. 1 Republican voted against the war and 149 Democrats.
Edited on Wed Jun-29-05 11:07 PM by mzmolly
Yeah, they're the same alright. :sarcasm:
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
24. "Asked nothing of Kerry?"
Got, not asked.
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jmcon007 Donating Member (782 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-29-05 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
28. well, Frank settles it. Vote Republican 'cause Clinton and Kerry are awful
or.....we should have voted for Nader, then Bush could have won by more and wouldn't have needed the Ohio fraud.
Quit bashing the Democrats.
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EC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-30-05 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
29. Sorry, but this sounds like the Corporate Media and Republican
talking points. Kerry and the Democrats had issues, in every speech, in every town, they talked about jobs, a clean environment, better schools, insurance and on and on. Their ideas were completely different than ** and were put out there in every conceivable way they could get them heard....but of course the Corporate Media didn't put their ideas out there or texts of speech's, much less even a quote...Was this guy even at a Kerry rally? Or see Edwards speak? I don't think so, unless he went with preconceived opinions and didn't even listen....
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-30-05 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
30. One more point of concern - the DNC still denies that there were enough
Edited on Thu Jun-30-05 01:33 AM by Nothing Without Hope
"problems" with the 2004 election to affect its outcome and is silent on the role played by electronic election fraud. This is beyond unacceptable. Providing more voting machines to areas that did not have enough is of course necessary, but with the electronic election fraud network in place, it won't matter a damn unless this MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR issue is fought with full-out vigor.

The Democratic leadership MUST be forced to stand up against electronic election fraud or else not only will democracy be gone, it will be irretrievable.

Why do they hesitate? I believe corruption is likely to be one answer:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=380878&mesg_id=381011

This is the end unless we put their feet to the fire. They will not fight to recover Democracy - getting more machines is not enough and they have shown no sign that they will fight to dismantle the machinery that stole the 2004 election for Bush. In my book,failure to face this truth and do something about it makes them complicit. We have to push hard and be very clear and loud about what really happened in Nov 2004.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-30-05 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. I agree.
The article addresses truths, however difficult they are to swallow.

If we are luke warm, we simply are no better than Switzerland, or Pontius Pilate for that matter.

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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-30-05 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #30
38. Too many Dems talk a good game and then vote in lockstep with R's and
Edited on Thu Jun-30-05 09:49 AM by flpoljunkie
against such crucial core Democratic values as economic justice--i.e., their craven and unjustifiable vote for the recent one-sided bankruptcy bill, already signed into law by Dubya, and due to take effect in early October of this year.

We need to hold their feet to the fire and insist they vote like real Democrats, and aggressively support and defend those Democrats who are deserving of the name.
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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-30-05 03:09 AM
Response to Original message
33. Thus
I tried to vote Green but KY won;t allow that and we needed Bush out of office for America to be America. Without the American Dream and innovation, we're no longer America.
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CityDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-30-05 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
41. We can thank the DLC
The DLC has been moving the party to the center and this has blurred the lines for some. Also, our party's support for the war in Iraq has blurred the lines as well.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-30-05 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
42. The DNC got the data for the Ohio Election Report from BLACKWELL!!!
Edited on Thu Jun-30-05 05:35 PM by Nothing Without Hope
Yes, THAT Blackwell. Must be a coincidence that the report concludes that electronic fraud was not a significant issue and that there were not enough "problems" in Ohio to affect the election outcome.

Very, very suspicious:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x381676
Thread title: DNC Ohio Election Report data were obtained from BLACKWELL!!! Hmmm...
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