Lemmings, Cargo cultists, and Angry Dems for Dean/Clark

[arendt]

N.B. This post's title is homage to a quote from the A.
Lincoln campaign, in which maligned Northern workers
held up a sign saying:

"Mechanics and Greasy Mudsills for A. Lincoln."

(see "Battle Cry of Freedom" for the story.)

This post is a call for some sanity and restraint.
(You can throw tomatoes and eggs now.)

----

The Dem primary discussion is getting hilariously
surreal.

You have die-hard leftists fighting over the ideological
purity of two clearly center-right candidates.
And, in the process, destroying the only people who
have a chance of beating Bush.

Let's face it. It is soooo easy to dig up the past on
either of these guys that it is a WORTHLESS EXERCISE.

Yes. Dean used to be very DLC and very small government.
Yes. Clark has been very cozy with the PNAC crowd and
voted GOP.

So, let's stop these counter-productive mud-slinging battles.
We are just giving the GOP sound-bites. The media is
already calling Deanies "cultists". Soon they be calling
Clark a Ross Perot "cargo cult".

Obviously, both of these guys have changed their spots.
You can't credit one guy's "seeing the light" and diss
the other guy without being a total hypocrite.

I'm not listening to the smears. I'm voting for the guy who is best at:

1) hammering the GOP
2) returning as good as he gets when the GOP attacks him
3) energizing the Dem base (its the base that will win it,
not the morons in the middle who spin like anemometers).
4) raising money in primarily small donations from the middle class,
not big money from insiders.

Obviously Dean has done all four. Clark has done lesser amounts
of all four.

Can we please have fights about who has done MORE for us
lefties, rather than who has done LESS?

You may now return to slaughtering each other like crazed
walruses.

arendt

[Eurobabe]

1. Hate to break it to you

But some of us aren't way leftie here.

[arendt]

3. What has that to do with not bashing two nearly identical backgrounds?

I'm not here to start a flame fest over who is
more left, right, or center.

I want fewer one-liners like yours and more positive
messages.

arendt

[arendt]

4. Do you find my 4 criteria "leftie"? Just asking n/t

n/t

[floridaguy]

11. The Clark v. Dean battle has just begun!

Your argument that those people "fighting" to nominate the most "electable" candidate are somehow hurting the Democratic Party is faulty reasoning and smacks of the same arrogance of the Gore endorsement and his going to Harlem to make the announcement.

Shouldn't the Democratic party hold all the candidates up to the same bright light that the $200-million backed GOP will shine on them?

Howard Dean may have mobilized the misguided and previously apathetic youth by using the internet which is commendable, and he may have been able to sell the die hard Democrats who were begging for someone who could stand up to Bush, but all that was before Wesley Clark entered the race.

Considering that Dean has been running for President for several years and Clark has been at it almost 2 months, it must dawn on Dean supporters that those Democratic leaders supporting Clark just might be on to something.

Wesley Clark appeals to voters from the entire spectrum, and that makes him the most electable Democrat. Democratic Centrists and dissatied Republicans will not vote for Dean - period. The left wing can not elect him by themselves. Therefore, those still supporting Dean may eventually assist Bush. Just ask the Republicans who are begging for Dean's nomination.

As someone who is dedicated to removing George Bush from office, I beg of you and all Democratic voters to not let the pollsters, the unions, or even Al Gore tell you who the best candidate is. I ask that you use your own intelligence and examine the candidates, their qualifications, and their "elecatability" vis a vis George Bush, and should you still think Howard Dean is the best choice - good luck.

WES CLARK - The only "ELECTABLE" Democrat in the race.

[arendt]

12. Fine. But it shouldn't be WWF rules.

> Your argument that those people "fighting" to nominate the most "electable"
> candidate are somehow hurting the Democratic Party is faulty reasoning
> and smacks of the same arrogance of the Gore

This is the same level of mistrust that led Bob Dole, when the
Clinton/Gore campaign offered to run a positve campaign, to
say words to the effect that "a proposal of positiveness was really
an underhanded way of smearing Dole as an attacker."

You also have taken an honest offer and twisted into a smear.
I feel sorry for people who are so bloody contentious.

Why must everything be a fight? Maybe people are just sick
of smear campaigns against people who don't deserve them.
Smear Bush, not the Dems.

> Shouldn't the Democratic party hold all the candidates up to the same bright
> light that the $200-million backed GOP will shine on them?

No. The Democratic Party should use DEMOCRATIC DOLLARS to
shine the light on BUSH. Like I said. The guy who hammers
Bush and fights back best gets my vote.

> but all that was before Wesley Clark entered the race.
>
> Considering that Dean has been running for President for several years and
> Clark has been at it almost 2 months, it must dawn on Dean supporters that
> those Democratic leaders supporting Clark just might be on to something.
>
> Wesley Clark appeals to voters from the entire spectrum

What a double standard. The reason he appeals is that nobody knows
who Clark REALLY is yet; nor how he would govern, nor whom he would
appoint. He is the classic blank slate.

Of course he has appeal. Nobody has sat down to dig up the dirt and
publicize the hell out of it yet, like has just been done to Dean WHEN IT
BECAME CLEAR HE HAD SIGNIFICANT AND LOYAL SUPPORT.

Come back and tell me the same stuff when Clark has 20% in the
polls and after the media has done one of their full-spectrum smear
jobs on him.

> I beg of you and all Democratic voters to not let the pollsters, the unions, or
> even Al Gore tell you who the best candidate is. I ask that you use your own
> intelligence and examine the candidates, their qualifications, and their
> "elecatability" vis a vis George Bush

I assure you that if I could find a pollster, I would punch him out, not
let him tell me anything. I have visited Kerry's office, talked to Dean
staffers, my wife shook Dean's hand at a rally. When Clark is close,
we'll take a look at him, too. I make up my own mind. So far, Dean
is doing OK. Clark is still unfocussed. I'm not dropping a known
commodity for a potential DLC stalking horse.

Like I said, its Dean or Clark. But can't we make it a little bit more
gentlemanly. If for no other reason than to disprove the "angry
Democrat" canard.

arendt

[stickdog]

14. It's not Dem leaders vs. Dem youth.

It's business-as usual establishment Dems vs. new voters and a newly energized base royally pissed at establishment Dems for letting Bush run roughshod over our country.

[GainesT1958]

2. I'll vote for the candidate...

Who will energize the base AND, at the same time, get enough of the "swing" voters to actually WIN the election. I know my candidate can do that--can other candidates do it? :eyes:

B-)

[Maximus Darius]

5. CLARK: Euros come first...

Wesley Clark: "And I would say to the Europeans, I pledge to you as the American president that we’ll consult with you first. You get the right of first refusal on the security concerns that we have."
- Gen. Wesley Clark
On ‘Hardball: Battle for the White House.’ Dec. 8, Monday, 7 p.m. ET

[arendt]

6. That was positive, but how does it relate to my topic?

Was it a tomato or an egg? :-)

arendt

[bobbieinok]

7. absolutely love 'cargo cultists'

Wasn't the term coined to describe Pacific islanders before WWII who saw colonial powers with ships and later planes nd thought that all the power and goods these countries had came from their having ships and later planes?

So they built ships and planes out of tree branches and waited by them for the power and possessions to come.

There was a haunting shot of this in the 60s movie/documantary Mondo Kane.

[arendt]

8. Yes. The same. Epithet first applied in politics to R. Perot n/t

[LWolf]

9. LOL

I'm not voting for either one of them in my primary, so I don't have to fight about their not-so-pure ideology. As of today, there are still 7 other choices.

[arendt]

10. The sane walrus gets the babes while the others fight. n/t

[anti-bush]

13. I'm right there with you

Let the Deanies and Clarkies argue about whose candidate is more of a carpetbagger, and I'll wait and watch the cream rise to the top.

Vote Edwards, and all of these concerns go away.

[Patriot_Spear]

15. I love that Cargo Cult reference...

Very esoteric and cool.