Now that GM is planning their 25,000 job cut, I will never buy

[ncteechur]

another automobile made by a Detroit car company. Fuck 'em. The only bad thing is how that will hurt the remaining employees. I don't give a rats ass about their top managers or their shareholders.
My apologies if anyone is one.

[Salviati]

1. Does anyone know of a handy list of foreign branded cars built in the US

That way you get the best of both worlds, you get to pay American workers, while not giving one dime to the shortsighted, greedy Detroit CEOs.

[Carolab]

2. They're everywhere.

Toyota, Subaru, Nissan.

[gmoney]

3. Lotsa Hondas built in Marysville, OH

I have a Marysville Honda that is just great...extremely reliable.

And I believe Hyundai just opened a big plant in Alabama...

[WLKjr]

29. employees a lot of people in this part of ohio

many little good paying suppliers too in almost all of the counties north of marysville too.

I was planning on having a Silverado this fall, but looks like now I will be going for the Honda Ridgeline pickup. More truck for my money.


and my mom works there too.

[ncteechur]

5. Many of the "foreign" auto makers have plants here in the US

In fact, if you want an American built automobile, buy a Toyota, Hyundai, or Honda. The US comanies have effectively either moved to Mexico or have a large percentage of parts made there.

[benevolent dictator]

13. "US" built cars usually still have mostly Japanese parts

They send their contracts back to Japan.

GM still has more plants here than Toyota, Honda, and Nissan combined.

[Salviati]

23. Sure, but if GM doesn't make a car you want to buy...

it would be nice to know what cars Toyota, Honda, and Nissan make here in the states, so that you can consider those as well...

[Psephos]

4. The reason they're cutting is because people like you don't buy US cars

Your planned action does nothing more than add another stick to the fire.

My family was clothed and fed by GM. Go ahead and buy a foreign car. Another worker out of work. Thanks for nothing.

[ncteechur]

6. The reason they are cutting is greed--nothing to do with whether I

buy their cars or not. Same reason I don't shop at Walmart because they treat their employees like shit. Corporations like United Airlines are protecting their profits on the backs and at the expense of their workers while keeping shitty management practices. Cutting your workforce to protect your bottom line is the cowardly way to do business.

[Psephos]

11. Seems like the less people know, the louder they know it

They are cutting their workforce because they are selling way fewer cars. Had you read the news, you would know they plan to do it by normal attrition (about 5% per year). They aren't putting people out on the street (although if they do, they have to pay them 95% of their wage, anyway).

It takes at least five years to develop a vehicle and bring it to market. GM is choking on unsold light trucks and sport-utes, but that is not the structural reason for their problems. More like salt in the wound.

The structural problem is that GM has HALF the marketshare they had 30 years ago. The decline has been steady, as foreign makes became trendy and supporting US brands became so passe. BTW, yes, thanks to the UAW, GM workers are treated pretty well. 60 grand for bolting on bumpers is not my idea of abuse. (That represents pay + bennies.) The UAW seriously rocks. But how can GM compete on price against carmakers who pay half or less than half of that to THEIR labor? GM's medical costs alone add 1500 bucks to the cost of each car. Do you want to pony up the 1500? Or do you want to run down to the KIA dealership? Do you put your money where your mouth is when it comes to funding a good living for American workers?

Both the GM management and the UAW leadership must share blame for the big problem that's looming now: huge liabilities for medical care for all present and past employees, and their families. Trust me, GM healthcare is the best. But the best costs astronomical amounts of money. Strong argument for national healthcare, IMO.

The kindest explanation for the morass is that no one foresaw the spiralling growth of medical costs in this country when those autoworker contracts were enacted years ago. The more likely explanation is that management bought union peace to keep the factories humming and the quarterly reports looking good, and decided to kick the cost can down the road til a later day. Union leaders decided to take whatever they could get now, and ask questions later. That later day has arrived.

I don't know who was more stupid. I guess both.

One more thing. Before you tell me about Marysville Hondas and Carolina Beemers, tell me what you think about the trade deficit and the national balance of accounts. Love to know what you think about wiring all that profit to foreign owners in foreign lands.

[Old and In the Way]

12. Well stated.

I have no answers, but I think you pointed out the salient issues of GM's dilemma. I think they should have been out on the hybrid engines years ago, but they chose to ignore that opportunity to reinvent themselves....now, it might be too late.

[benevolent dictator]

16. But... without the huge health care costs....

they could be putting millions more into R&D to create those hybrids.

We need national health care, it would benefit states, corporations, and mom&pop shops. Not to mention all the people in the country...

BTW, just as a side note, Ford developed all it's own hybrid tech, it's licensing software from Toyota because theirs was deemed "too close," but they developed it all themselves.

[Old and In the Way]

24. I agree...healthcare is a huge issue for corporations.

For the life of me, I can't figure why they aren't behind a national healthcare system to offload that cost from their balance sheets. It would be a real no-brainer.

Personally, I think US Big Auto is tied to tight to US Big Oil....and it will be their downfall.

[benevolent dictator]

33. Both the CEOs of Ford and GM are pushing for national catastrophic

health insurance. It's stopping short of national health care but it's on the right track.

[LiberalFighter]

36. GM supported national healthcare during Clinton Admin

[hatrack]

25. But they wouldn't

They'd just inflate a couple of new advertising campaigns to push their Chevy Subdivisions, or cut bigger dividend checks, or give their executives bigger bonuses.

And if anyone raised the point you just did, they'd point with pride at the billions they've invested in their Hydrogen Car Of The Future - which is going to remain in the future for the indefinite future. They may as well have invested billions in training harbor seals to operate curling irons.

[gmoney]

32. GM put all their money on the wrong horse, hydrogen...

Can you believe someone actually believed Bush's line about hydrogen power?

From what I understand, hydrogen cars are at least 10 years out... plus the hydrogen supply infrastructure has to happen, too.

[uncle ray]

17. you just made my point for me, thanks.

60 large for bolting on bumpers? THAT"S why i despise unions like the UAW. how can they "rock" if the generous benefits you enjoy contribute to running the company into the ground, thus losing jobs and pensions? preventing sweatshop conditions is one thing, getting rich for doing brainless work is another. of course it's not all the unions fault, there's plenty of blame to go around, but the LAST people to be blamed are the consumers who are not willing to pay more for an inferior product. you want consumers to pay more to support americans? that goes both ways, how about YOU take a big fat voluntary pay cut? we'll meet halfway. after all, it's in the interest of selling GM cars. i don't feel bad about profit going to foreign owners, when those foreign owners are providing jobs for their people?(and OURS) this isn't a GM problem, it isn't a United Airlines problem, it's a problem with the American way of life and standard of living. how American to want to maintain our inflated standard of living and screw the rest of the world.

[Psephos]

20. I don't work for a car company, so I guess I can't take that pay cut

I'm self-employed. Which is another way of saying I take my pay cut every day.

Do you enjoy generous benefits, Uncle Ray? Or any benefits at all? Cuz I don't. No health care, no insurance, no company pension, nada, nip, nothing. Get it?

As alluded to in my O.P., I do have close relatives, going back over generations, who have been proud to be UAW members AND proud to work for GM. GM fed and clothed a good chunk of my family for a long time. I've eaten plenty of meals that were paid for with a GM paycheck. I have a UAW jacket and about ten GM hats. I've seen things from a different vantage point than you. Up close and personal.

I understand your frustration with unions. Big unions, like big companies, like big government, like big anything, tend to become inefficient and bloated unless they are facing the disciplining effects of competition, and accountability for their power. However, the UAW does "rock" for protecting a good middle-class lifestyle for its members for many decades. Conversely it deserves blame for becoming greedy, demanding more than good economic analysis showed to be sustainable, and then assuming some magic fairy would fix things later. GM deserves ten lashes with the same whip. I said all this in my post. Take another read, if you missed it.

If you don't care about the outflow of capital from the US to foreign owners, then you don't care about the trade deficit. Is that true? Trade deficit and weak dollar don't bother you one bit? Capital is like water in a bathtub. Drain enough of it out without pouring more in, and one day you will no longer be taking baths.

Regarding your challenge, I've already more than met you halfway, Uncle Ray. Now it's time for *you* to pony up.

[uncle ray]

21. either way, you seem to be proud to be reaping the union benefits.

yes i have very meager benefits, and i am grateful for what i DO have. which still isn't much, paycheck to paycheck is the norm.

yes we see things from a different perspective, my family has scraped to get by, it wasn't until i was an adult before i could have any kind of dental care, and it STILL cost me, not a benefit of any job. that's why it's bothersome to me to listen to those who have been enjoying excellent benefits for simple work complain about losing, or having to pay for what some of us never had, or always did have to pay for ourselves. while union members struck for more, many others were getting less. sure i COULD have taken a nice union job with a major company, or even a government job, and had great benefits and easy work, but i chose to stick to my principles, learn as much as i could at small companies where people get places by their merit, not by putting in their time, trading off the pay/benefits for a more personal work environment. why? because knowing what little i do/did, i knew the gravy train wouldn't last. as these people lose their jobs, they continue to expect comparable pay for the same work, good luck!


i never said that GM wasn't to blame, my point is that the workers who reaped the benefits of the unions are also to blame, they are not innocent victims. it's not like foreign car companies landed here last week. the problem is all of America, and America's greed. the global economy is here, like it or not, and if we as a country are going to survive, we have to learn to compete in the global economy, not too hard to figure out! this needs to wash out somewhere between third world workers earning a dollar a day for busting their asses, and Americans earning $20+ an hour to push a button every 10 minutes.

i AM doing my part, i earn a fairly modest wage for honest work, though i COULD make more. i sleep well knowing no matter what happens, i have a damn good chance of finding employment in any job market because of my variety of skills, be it machining, welding, fabricating, foundry work, upholstery, as well as all the hands-off things, hell, practically everything required to make a car short of building a computer, and i'd learn that given the opportunity. i'm doing my part to keep what America was built on alive, by doing what i love, building cars from scratch. i do my best to buy American goods. what do you want me to do, buy a new car i don't want/need, can't afford? maybe we're both halfway there, just on different paths.

[benevolent dictator]

34. The unions are basically why we have a middle class

A lot of the non-union jobs that paid well did because they didn't want a union. Now, if you look at job growth studies as unions decline, most of the jobs being created are low wage sector jobs, and nearly half of them (at least in MI) pay below a living wage.

Unions aren't entirely blameless, but they're still the reason that most people have paid holidays and benefits and a decent wage, whether directly or not. Now, as they lose power, we'll start to see a lot more people who are working 2-3 jobs just to make ends meat.

[SemperEadem]

26. I take it you don't bang metal at an auto plant

try working in one and then come back and talk about what someone doesn't deserve to be paid.

[uncle ray]

30. no i don't

bang metal in an auto plant. i do it over a stump, using whatever hand tools i find/make, the "old" way, plus many other tasks that nobody on DU cares about. i know what my skills are worth, thanks. those are the same varied skills that will keep me employed when the assembly line workers are not. working with metal is my trade, politics is my hobby/civic duty.

and i suspect very few people are paid to "bang metal" at GM.

[LiberalFighter]

38. G R. Wagoner General Motors Chairman and CEO

In 2003, G R. Wagoner raked in $12,798,572 in total compensation including stock option grants from General Motors.

And G R. Wagoner has another $12,477,364 in unexercised stock options from previous years.

[benevolent dictator]

14. It's been pointed out by others on DU

that GM is overstaffed and could save a lot in the long term by replacing a lot of their employees with robots.

Comparing GM to Wal-Mart is completely baseless and unfair. GM pays good wages and benefits and that's a part of why they're in trouble. Over $1,700 of the cost of every car is health care and pension benefits, and they spend more on health care for their employees than they do on steel for their cars.

Cutting the workforce is sometimes necessary to stay in business. They're also cutting out some SUV lines. I'm not saying there's no fat in the management, I'm not saying they should be excused. I'm just saying they've got to compete and if you don't want their other 100,000 employees to be out of work, too, then something's got to give.

There's also the fact that it's pretty much illegal for them to do anything that the stockholders feel is cutting into their profit share. A corporations only responsibility is to it's stock holders and if they feel the company isn't looking out for them enough, they can sue.

Not buying American cars only puts our car companies deeper in debt, which means they will lay off more workers.

Sorry if this post is a bit disjointed... it's getting late.

[ncteechur]

7. Was GM the same company then as it is now?

Were its values the same? Did it treat its workers better? How much did the UAW play in securing the rights the workers do have?

[driver8]

10. Give me a fucking break...

Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans all have factories in this country. I guess it is more important to keep the GM families employed than it is the ones that work for Honda and Toyota.

If GM would have got with the program and built a few cars that people wanted (hybrid) instead of those gas guzzling pieces of shit they produce, they might not be in this mess.

Thank the management at GM for workers being out of work...not the consumer who wants a good value for his/her money. GM refused to change to fit the times...that is why these workers are losing their jobs.

[benevolent dictator]

18. GM has more plants than those 3 combined.

GM has more plants here than Toyota, Honda, and Nissan combined. Not to mention that it's estimated that GM indirectly employees another 9 people for each 1 direct employee. And Japanese car companies tend to send their contracts back to Japan, rather than to American suppliers.

The Japanese car companies also have a lot more money to throw around on R&D since they don't have the health care costs or the pensioners like GM does. GM spends more on health care for its employees and their families than on steel for its cars.

As pointed out in an above post, the workers are being let go through attrition, not tossed out on the street. Not saying there's no fat at the top that could be trimmed, but it's not like these 25,000 people are going to be out in the cold tomorrow.

[Protagoras]

15. MIght it also just have a little something to do with business plans

that rely on cars that are oversized and underperform compared to the competition? I've never thought to myself "Damn I'd like to support a japanese company" but I also never think to myself "Screw the environment, give me the gas guzzling car with the inferior repair record".

I'm sad as hell that Detroit is so married to boats on wheels...but I have a hard time dropping 20+ grand on a car that I don't believe is as reliable and gets worse gas mileage...often with worse features.

I've owned Chevy, Ford, and Dodge...and none of them touched my Honda or Subaru. I wish it were otherwise, but giving them my money didn't make them better..sending it elsewhere may not help them either...but it did help me and the environment...and I'm not required to be both a consumer AND a martyr in my automotive purchases simply because they refuse to innovate.

Build me a reliable car with decent features that gets 30mpg and I'll flock to your door.

Build me an affordable hydrogen or even hybrid car that gets 40mpg and I'll be cheering you on.

Build me a mainstream car that gets 50mpg and I'll volunteer a day a week promoting your product.

But don't come a day late and a dollar short then try and guilt me into buying a second rate product because you (the Boardrooms in Detroit) are unable to see the direction of transportation needs in the new century.

[ET Awful]

22. Bull. The reason they're cutting is A - Profit and B - they spent so

damned much time trying to develop the biggest baddes SUV that they forgot that most people buy cars, not behemoths. Had they spent their time building cars that the averge person can both afford and drive, they wouldn't have ended up in the hole they're in.

They fucked themselves and everyone else in the process.

[RunningFromCongress]

31. I don't buy GM/Ford because the quality is poor and the vehicles can't

compete with their foreign counterparts in any class expect for work trucks.

Any vehicle in any class (except trucks) will lose a heads up comparison. Especially once you get into interior design and quality.

I'm not going to buy a car that gives me less b/c it's "Made by an American company" I'm going to buy a car that meets my wants. And GM hasn't been able to do that for some time.

The only CAR I'd ever purchase from GM is the Vette, and only as a 3rd or 4th vehicle not as my primary summer toy/fun car.


Build something I want, and I'll buy it. Until then I'll continue to give my business and money to foreign based auto companies.

[benevolent dictator]

35. I think the perception of poor quality/design

is a lot more pervasive than actual poor quality/design. If you take cars made on the same assembly line of the same parts where half are stamped with an American car company and half are stamped with a Japanese car company, the Japanese ones tend to get better quality and satisfaction ratings. But they're made on the same line! It's all about perception. It's also the fact that if you buy a Mazda you don't like, you're more likely to think it's the car, whereas if you buy a Ford you don't like, you think "well everyone knows Ford makes shitty cars..."

[LiberalFighter]

39. I seriously doubt that you have shopped enough to know

the quality of GM/Ford vehicles.

[ncteechur]

8. Of course, I guess that is how GM will be able to offer

everyone in America the GM employee discount--they won't have any employees left to buy their cars.

[The_Casual_Observer]

9. I won't buy another one of those things. But I'm just one guy

and I don't matter.

[benevolent dictator]

19. That's right, one person can't ever make a difference. Ever.

That pretty much sums up the mentality of most of America, I think. "I'm just one person, so it doesn't matter what I do."

Whatever happened to that "be the change you want to see" quote or whatever it was? Ah never mind. Doesn't matter.

[hecate77]

27. I'd buy American if they made what I wanted, but they don't

We had a Saturn, which was a decent car, but this time we bought a Prius. I would have considsed an American hybrid if they made one, but they didn't.

I have always ended up buying Toyotas (my partner bought the Saturn before we got together), not because of love for Japanese companies or hate of American companies, but because the American companies simply never made anything I wanted or could afford to drive.

My first car was a Toyota Corolla (all I could afford), then a Toyota with front-wheel drive because no American company made a car that I could afford that was not a hatchback, then a Toyota 4WD small truck (needed it for hauling materials), since no American company made one that was small and that I could afford, and now the Prius, since no American company made one.

And today it is the same. The American companies just don't get it till too late. They are always selling last years car, and are really bad at gauging the trends, so they tie themselves up with useless production that they cannot sell.

Also, you have to admit, the American companies do suffer a lot from us not having universal health care under a single payer system. That alone could make them competitive again.

[RB TexLa]

28. If they don't cut the 25,000 you might not ever get the chance to buy

another GM car IMHO

[candy331]

37. I remember back in 1972/73 the oil crisis was on us then like now

that was when gas first went over $1.00 a gallon, gas pumps had to be changed because they were only made to go to 99 9/10. Conservation was going to be the thing, smaller cars were to be the norm for the future, and low and behold some body yelled the crisis is over and the auto manufacturers went haywire building bigger and bigger inefficient gas guzzlers. I said it would come to this, while American manufacturers were fiddling the Japanese were working. I don't feel sorry for the auto industry at all(sorry for workers, not CEO's) because I don't see them learning a damn thing from this just as they learned nothing from the 1970's.