To the lurkers who want the Ten Commandments displayed

[Maraya1969]

at courthouses and want this country turned back into the "Christian nation" that is in your delusional minds. I have some information for you.

I took it upon myself to do some calculations since I found out what religions were growing in the United States.

From this site: http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions It states that Christianity is clearly the leading religion by far at – 76.5%. The combination of all the other religions such as Judaism, Hindu, Muslim Deist Sikhism etc. would equal 23.5% of the population.

I then added up the percentage change of these other religions. Christianity is growing at 5% per ten years. The “others” are growing at 153% per ten years. (1990 – 2000 figures)

Obviously Christianity is by far in the lead right now but what is going to happen in the future? I considered no other variables in these calculations but what I found is quite interesting.

I decided to use 75% Christianity and 25% “Other” to simplify things.

Right now there are 299 million or so people in the US so I’ve again simplified that into 300 million. 75% of 300 million is 225 million. 25% of 300 million is 76 million. So if thing keep going in the same direction this is what will happen by 2015.

FIRST ADD ½ TO ACCOUNT FROM PERIOD 2000 – 2005

5% Divided by 2 = 2.5%
153% Divided by 2 = 7.65%

300,000,000 + 2.5% = 307,500,000 Christian
25,000,000 + 7.65% = 41,250,000 Other

Add another ten years

300,000,000 + 5% = 315,000,000 Christian
41,250,000 +153% = 104,250,000 Other

This is the year 2015


Add on another ten years: to 2025

Christian 236,250,000 + 5% = 248,062,500
Other 104,250,000 +153% = 264,037,120

I DO realize that using my figures are not consistent with pure population growth in the US which is 32,000,000 per year according to the US census bureau.
(http://www.npg.org/popfacts.htm)

I am not factoring in deaths, immigration and people just changing their religions.

But I have checked other places and the verdict is in. Christianity is going down and other religions are taking off, (Deists grew 775% during the period 1990 - 2000 according to the site mentioned above).

So all you dingbats who desperately want a United States of Jesus. All you self aggrandizing pomp-ass preachers who think there is only "One Way" and it just happens to be "Your Way". I have one thing to say to you.......

WHEN YOU GRANDKIDS END UP HAVING TO CARRY PRAYER MATS TO SCHOOL, FACE MECCA AND PROSTRATE THEMSELVES 5 TIMES A DAY IT IS YOUR OWN STUPID ASS FAULT. AND DON'T TRY AND SAY WE DIDN'T WARN YOU!

[Melodybe]

1. Good work! You're brilliant! Thank you for you efforts!

I am kicking and nominating this post b/c you DO deserve it.

I feel the same way about a lot of the stufff that I post here, it makes me want to shake people that are suppose to be singing in the choir.

:yourock:

[Maraya1969]

4. Thanks so much - now I kind of feel like an ass for being be childish

:dunce:

[Kurovski]

2. I remember seeing the ACLU discussing

(on C-Span)how they protect all Americans' right to worship as they see fit.

The extremist's either don't get it or don't care, and do indeed want a theocracy.

[shraby]

5. If the churches want the ten commandments displayed,

why haven't they displayed them out in front of the churches??? I don't believe I've ever seen them on a tablet in front of a church.

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. I have wondered the same thing

I guess they like their signs with the stupidly clever little sayings on them.

[LiberalFighter]

43. Why didn't the Constitution require the 10 commandments to be posted?

[doublethink]

9. Yep key word here is 'Theocracy'

which is not what our Constitution, Bill of Rights, or Country is founded upon. There is a Separation of Church and State, and that means any and all church's be it Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Scientology, or the Church of South Park. We have the freedom to worship as we please, in our own way, unlike a Theocracy which mandates a certain ruling religion for a particular Country. Nope not here. God Bless. Good Post. Thanks. :) Peace.

[LiberalFighter]

42. They don't want competition

[queeg]

3. Who gives a F---k

Wait, my sacrificial goat is running away.

[Maraya1969]

7. The FUCK is...................these lunatics are losing - they are going t

be completely stripped of their power in a short time. Actually I think it is going to be shorter than what is actually recorded. Personally the people I know are delving into metaphysics and other alternative spiritual ways of being.

And while I am on the subject: "What the bleep do we know" is an EXCELLENT documentary that you can rent at Block Buster. It actually explains how we create our word through our thoughts at the sub atomic level. Basically a bunch of quantum physicists share what they have found out about how quarks work.

And then "Create Your Day" is a follow up that is GREAT.

[BlueEyedSon]

10. "What the Bleep...." undermined its own credibility by being

an infomercial for that crank cult-leader JZ Knight(a/k/a Ramtha).

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/2028.html?1084846569

[Maraya1969]

17. You don't have to discount an entire clump of information just

because you don't like one person. And I know the whole thing about her is a little freaky but I really like what she says. Besides the rest of the people in that documentary are physicists.

[BlueEyedSon]

18. You're killing me here. 5 of the 14 personalities featured are physicists.

That is far from "all" (more "fuzzy math"?).

http://www.whatthebleep.com/scientists/

"Liking what she says" hardly constitutes a yardstick of "truth".

Please visit (and read) the previously posted link.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/2028.html?1084846569

If you really want to get the lowdown on the "new physics" (minus the metaphysics) try this



http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375412883/103-0714687-4002251?v=glance

[Maraya1969]

39. So maybe they just showed the physicists at the end of the movie - give

me a fucking break! There are only 2 people that are considered "Spiritual Teachers" You can see the rest here. As far as Ramtha goes, what she says it not much different from what most Eastern Religions say. I used to go to the "Unity Church" and there are people who think it is a cult. In my opinion AA has cult like aspects about it. Why do people go to it for years and years hearing the same fucking thing over and over? Can you guess I'm a member? I've had to fight tooth and nail to gain some of my Independence without feeling guilty or afraid that I was going to "slip". I HATE that about AA yet it is the best thing going for alcoholics to stop drinking.

So you take what fits and leave the rest. Why is that so hard?


PHYSICISTS
William Tiller, Ph.D.
Amit Goswami, Ph.D.
John Hagelin, Ph.D.
Fred Alan Wolf, Ph.D.
Dr. David Albert

NEUROLOGISTS, ANESTHESIOLOGISTS & PHYSICIANS

Dr. Masaru Emoto
Stuart Hameroff M.D.
Dr. Jeffrey Satinover
Andrew B. Newberg, M.D.
Dr. Daniel Monti
Dr. Joseph Dispenza

MOLECULAR BIOLOGY

Dr. Candace Pert

SPIRITUAL TEACHERS, MYSTICS AND SCHOLARS

Ramtha
Miceal Ledwith, Ph.D.

[nickinSTL]

29. hmm, now I haven't seen the movie

and i don't have a clue who this JZ/Ramtha is...

But my fiancee went to see it with a friend who is a mathematician.

From what I understand, he's one of the world's leading experts on the boundaries of space-time.

My fiancee and our friend thought the movie was terrible.

[BlueEyedSon]

6. Your math is incorrect and you have a few typing mistakes

1. you need to use a compound interest/growth formula to find the five-year rate, you cannot get it by dividing the 10-year rate by 2. For example, if the 5 year growth is 76.5%, the 10 year growth is (1.765*1.765)-1 = 212%, not 153%.

2. Your references to the rate "7.65%" should be more like 76.5% (which because of point 1 above is wrong anyway).

Good luck using logic on religious fundies. :)

[Maraya1969]

8. Well you are right about the 76%. I'm going to have to re-do the whole th

BUT I did say that it was not completely done right. I also calculated in a compound rate but that was just too long to post. So I went for the basic math.

SHIT I don't feel like re-doing it.

[BlueEyedSon]

11. It would not make your post longer to use the compound rate.

it would be exactly the same length, but with correct numbers.

[Kurovski]

12. You'd have to do it in the next hour if

you want to get it in the original post.

The Freekers might have themselves have a field day with it otherwise.

Thanks for all the work. Good luck. :-)

[Maraya1969]

15. I can't change it now - the editing time is over

I do the whole thing over tomorrow. :nopity: Or maybe I'll just post the information from the sites I found.

Definitely stuck my foot in my mouth this time.

[Kurovski]

19. Just add the corrections as a post.

I've seen others post addendums to their own threads when they needed to do so.

[hnsez]

13. your post - the part i enjoyed :)

WHEN YOU GRANDKIDS END UP HAVING TO CARRY PRAYER MATS TO SCHOOL, FACE MECCA AND PROSTRATE THEMSELVES 5 TIMES A DAY IT IS YOUR OWN STUPID ASS FAULT. AND DON'T TRY AND SAY WE DIDN'T WARN YOU!

[BlueEyedSon]

14. "Good luck using logic on religious fundies."

That needed repeating.

[eridani]

16. How come is it--

--that the Fundies never want the Beatitudes on public display?

[Tux]

36. Simple

It promotes peace, harmony, and was taught by Jesus instead of a god that through temper tantrums.

[man4allcats]

20. A few errors, but it's a good post.

Thanks for the effort and hard work. Errors aside, the trend is clear. As for re-doing it, I'd say the heck with it. Just get some sleep so you'll be fully charged for your next attack on the not so funny Fundies. :applause: And for BlueEyedSon, thanks for the book link. :thumbsup: I'll check it out.

[Rainbowreflect]

22. I think you make a great point.

I think it boils down even further to who's Christianity.
I am sure the fundies would not want to have to submit to my Christian beliefs. My Christian beliefs are that we should take care of the homeless & the hungry. That poor street person has as much value as the CEO & that we show our true selves by how we treat others not by the money & power we accumulate.

[tmorelli415]

23. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but this doesn't help...

Sticking it to people who are motivated by faith just validates the notion that liberals are just a bunch of athiests and anti-Christian. The polls indicate a vast majority of Democrats, liberals, progressives define themselves as Judeo-Christian. Yes, we also include athiests, Moslems, Hindu - we admire positive spiritual values no matter the label - they've got to understand this because it is true. Otherwise, Their reaction is to try to codify their faith tradition because they are frightened to death of exactly what you pointed out. Instead of reasoning that they could be the 'other' someday, they try to assert a permanent religious preference into our institutions that will be unaffected even if they are in the minority - it gives them the reins of power no matter who outnumbers them.

We need to marginalize the extremists and make it uncomfortable, unacceptable for secular Christians to be associated with them. Focus on their radical agenda and use their own wordspeak against them: they are un-American, they are not worthy of the noble Christian label, they are modern Pharisees. Talk to them like they are bad children who ought to be ashamed of themselves, who don't know the first thing about values or morals because they have none. And finally, pit them against one another - who is a 'better' Christian? Focus on the theological issues that divide Catholics from Evangelicals and Mormons and Baptists as history shows time and time again that as soon as they hit their high point they start lookign around at one another and begin to implde as they fight about who has the 'right' views. Then point out that they can't even agree on the most basic things of faith, and so the public forum should remain neutral.

We are not the enemies of Christians - They need to see that liberal and progressive causes are far more compatible with the core principles taught by Christ. We value religion and know it is only given proper reverence in a secular society. They are already acting from a place of fear so we absolutely must not feed into their irrational fear of secular society or this fundamentalist monster will never die.

Blah blah blah...

[AmBlue]

34. Welcome to DU, tmorelli415

I've seen and enjoyed your posts in a couple of forums already. Keep it coming!! :hi:

[Tux]

37. Yay

My family is turning into cult members now. They refuse logic and rely on emotions for everything. We can't "talk to them like bad children" because we're all godless commies. What we have to do is join Falwell, Dobson, and Robertson. If they can make cults nationwide, why can't the Quakers or UU? Evangelicals surrendered reason and will obey their lord and master. Best to out cult the cults.

[tmorelli415]

41. the extremists are lost

WE need to marginalize them and make extremism unacceptable - that forces the non-extremists to make a decision as to whether they want to be associated with them or not. If we give them a place to go where they feel respected for their beliefs and potential contributions, they will come.

[spooky3]

24. Where in your calculations are the non-believers? When you

project that 75% of the entire population is Christian, you're ignoring the fact that nearly 15% (according to some polls, but the figure could be much higher due to the social disapproval and discrimination against those who reject religion) of the adult population is agnostic, atheist, or freethinking, etc.

And what about the possibility that the extremists would respond by saying "this just provides MORE evidence that we need these Ten Commandments posters (etc.) because those evil secularists are forcing a decline in our religion by preventing our free expression of it!!!"

[tuvor]

25. Why aren't these "christians" frothing to have Jesus' beatitudes displayed

Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek,
for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they shall be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure of heart,
for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called children of God.

Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


Gospel of Matthew 5:3-10

[Tux]

38. LOL

Godless heathern, it doesn't mention tax cuts, free trade, worship of death and money, and would require moral lives.

[PurityOfEssence]

26. So, EVERYONE in the U.S. believes in a religion?

Look up some stats on the other 24% before you make wild assumptions.

It's 2% Jewish, 2% Muslim, 10-15% non-believer or unaffiliated, depending on how the question's asked.

I'm sick of the assumption that everyone actually does believe when push comes to shove. Belief is not the default setting for the human brain.

[sinkingfeeling]

27. Must be why so many 'christians' are having 8 to 12 kids!! Thanks.

[magnolia]

28. Why is it....

...that these people, who use the name Jesus in every sentence, want the 10 Commandments on display instead of Jesus's own words in "The Sermon on the Mount"???

I guess the words of Jesus...Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the world. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they are the children of God...etc...aren't part of their agenda.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

31. Check out my sig line by Vonnegut

[C_eh_N_eh_D_eh]

30. You're forgetting a major component of the plan.

If the Fristian Right succeeds in establishing a theocracy, every form of worship different from their own will be banned; it's the logical next step. Those numbers for Judaism, Hindu, Islam, etc. will go way down.

[socoljam]

32. I like the ending!

Somehow, the Right in this country has convinced us that it's a "christian nation" founded on "christian principles." I'd like them to find a single reference to Jesus, or even God, in the Constitution. The closest you get is "their creator" in the Declaration of Independence. Not "our creator", but "their," implying some sort of religious tolerance - as if it matters, the Dec. of Ind. is not, nor ever has been, law. We don't even have a basis in Judeo-Christian ideals, our country was absolutely founded on Enlightenment principles. Individual rights, freedom, democracy. Things that had grown out of a three thousand years of European culture starting back before a little book called The Republic, which only came out 400 years before Jesus, and wasn't written by a Jew, either.

No, the Judeo-Christian idea would've been a theocracy. (Think Jewish Pharisees or the lovely village of Plymouth.) We'd be living in a society that was much more "Scarlet Letter" and much less "Roman Republic."

Why did our country choose Plymouth as the greatest place? Why not a place like New York, a democracy where people from any country, language, or religion have always been accepted? Instead we choose a quiet little village where if you didn't abide by church law, you could be burned as a witch.

I am incredibly bored of hearing how we're a Christian nation. It is not historically accurate at all. If people care to read that wonderful Constitution of ours (no sarcasm intended), they have a chance of figuring that out.

[tmorelli415]

40. PLEASE STOP!!! !why are we debating this?!!! it is a NO WIN for everyone!

bottom line is as long as we keep blasting away at anyone who identifies as Christian, we just look like a bunch of anti-religion, anti-Christian ragers. Yes, I am angry and disgusted by the so-called religious right and what they have done to our country, too. I don't blame you for being angry one bit - what they are doing is WRONG. But Christianity is NOT OUR ENEMY! Religious extremists are the enemy. There are millions of Democrats and progressives who consider themselves Christian and/or some other perfectly good and fine religious tradition. We APPLAUD them for their deeply held principles and we welcome anyone who shares our commitment to improving people's lives, creating a more just society. OUR VALUES ARE MORAL VALUES - religious extremism is not moral nor a value and it is not to be condoned. BUT I REPEAT --- WE ARE A NATURAL AND GOOD PLACE TO BE FOR SECULAR CHRISTIANS whose beliefs we admire in many ways. STOP STOP STOP attacking the faith and instead focus on the extremists. Extremists in any form are a proglem: extreme Islam, extreme athiests, extreme secularists (are we being such a thing? think about it!), extreme Flying Purple People Eaters, whatever - religion is not bad - religious extremits are bad! THIS IS CRITICAL to our success - we are not living up to our OWN IDEALS by slamming these people (we're just being jerks if we do).

WE ARE BETTER THAN THIS!!! WE MUST RISE TO OUR OWN HIGHEST IDEALS AS DEMOCRATS!! What would FDR say? What would RFK say? What would MLK say? What would JFK say? OUR HEROES are our guide! THINK ABOUT IT!!

Stop shouting at everyone to act like 'real Democrats' and not 'Republican lite' if you can't do it yourself! WE ARE THE NOBLE ONES! WE ARE THE ADULTS! WE ARE THE PARTY OF THE PEOPLE - ***ALL*** of the people! WE ARE DEMOCRATS!!!! When when when will my liberal and progressive friends begin to get this? Do you really think that Robert Kennedy would have stood up in front of a group of people and barked t them about how Christianity was a dying religion, tossing out statistics and frightening them with thoughts of praying to Mecca? WHAT THE F*CK!!??

WE ARE THE PARTY OF HOPE!! Give them some hope!

[hecate77]

33. Your math is bogus

You can't just keep applying the same rate each 10 years. After the first 10 years (where we are now), the beginning numbers have changed, but the growth rate of the population is pretty much constant. So, given the same number of new people added, something has to give. Either the rate of growth of the non-Christians has to decrease, or the rate of the Christians has to decrease, otherwise you will end up with a number greater by far than the actual population.

So, what is more likely is that the percentage of Christians will slow in growth and eventually reverse (not keeping up with population due to not enough new folks and a lot of defections), and the growth rate of non-Christians will slow down considerably.

Let me give you an (simplified) example:

Assume there are 10 Christians and 1` non-Christian and there are two new people a year.

Year one, Christians gain 1, non-Christians gain 1. Christian growth rate is 10%, non-C is 100%. (C = 11, non-c = 2)

Year 2, c gains 1, non-c gains 1. C growth is about 9%, non-C growth is 50%. (C = 12, non-C = 3)

Year 3, c gains 1, non-c gains 1. C growth is about 8%, non-c growth is 33%. (C = 13, non-C = 4)

Now, add in some losses from C to non-C and maybe this changes a little, but the initial rate of 100% doesn't hold. This is just an illustration of one major thing that is wrong with your math on a fundamental basis.

Once the actual number of non-Christians grows a bit, then the rate will have to drop considerably unless there is a massive defection from the Christian ranks, since there simply is not enough population growth to sustain your rates.

So, to have non-Christians overtake Christians anytime in this next century, you need to have massive defections from the Christians. I am not saying this is impossible, but it is not the case you made.

[Tux]

35. Cool

Deists grew 775% during the period 1990 - 2000 according to the site mentioned above

There is, what, 1,000 of us? Small but needed to balance the irrational emotional hatred of evangelicals.

Not all but one church here supports separation of church and state and removal of mandatory prayer in schools since Islam is growing quickly. They don't their kids to be Muslim and the laws protect their kids from being Muslim.

What I'd like to know is, what is the reason for having the 10 Comandments in a public courtyard? Freepers will say, "My minister said so" but why not put up in your house. I have the UU 7 Principles/Practices on the wall but they'll never be on a rock in pubic. I don't want them to be. Why force everyone into freeper's cults? I think they are scared of life and fundamentalism makes it all better. Anything that causes thought scares them since it may desttoy their worldview. Babies.

[HR_Pufnstuf]

44. Elvis 3::16

"Man shall shake, rattle and roll"