How can Democrats get around christian persecution complex?

[Fire]

I was looking through the hate mail bag article on the frontpage and this one caught my eye with emphasis on the bolded part.

Subject: underground? I wish.

To whom it may concern:

I just wanted to comment that I used to be a democrat. And I now seriously question my sanity at that time. It seems to me now, that the democratic parties soul purpose is to scream, yell and make as big an ass as possible of oneself. Have you no morals? When I think of a democrat, the things that come to mind are this. The destruction of the family, gay marriage, nastiness that sinks to all time lows when it comes to your feelings of the republican party, liars, cheaters, swindlers, atheists who discriminate against Christians especially. And guess what? More and more of America is starting to feel that way every day. You guys are even starting to lose the minority vote due to your irresponsibility, your lying cheating ways, your self righteousness. There is no low that you all are not willing to stoop to. When someone tells me that they are a democrat, despicable is always the first word that pops into my mind. And I can honestly say that I do not know one other person who does not feel the same way. Are you all so moronic that you can't see that your doing yourselves in a little more everyday? The worst that I've seen, by far, is your beloved psychopath Barbara Boxley. Hey guys, lets let the corrupt UN come on in and monitor our elections. Hey, why don't we just let 'em take over America while their at it? A little pay off would have fixed the elections right up, correct? No wonder she wanted them to come into our country and take over. Do you guys honestly think that one single American would stand for that for one moment? You are all crazy. And I just wish for two seconds you all would shut the hell up. I cannot even cut my television on anymore because all you do is whine and snot and cry like two year olds. I'm speaking on behalf of every human being that I know, by the way.

Sincerely,
Stacie

The thing is, I don't think this view is at all atypical.

A recent Pew research poll had some surprising results:

http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?PageID=948

61% oppose gay marriage
74%(!) Say the ten commandments should be allowed to be displayed in government buildings
57% say creationism should be taught in schools along with evolution. 33% say creationism should be taught instead of evolution
71% say the U.S. is a Christian nation

See, I hear christians, even christians who dislike the republican party repeat the idea that dispite being a very strong majority in this country that they are somehow underprivledged. They see groups such as the ACLU who are committed to protecting equal rights for everyone as being anti-christian since they try to preserve separation of church and state. To these people, if they don't have the principal of their kids school read a christian prayer over the loud speaker or post the ten commandments in the court house they think that they are being discriminated against.

Democrats can't just ignore them, they're the majority of the population but at the same time how can we win them over without selling out the rights of religious and sexual minorities?

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[LoZoccolo]

45. ding ding ding indeed

But not in the same way as the other one. It's probably due to stuff like certain liberals advocating genocide, ya think?

[Al-CIAda]

2. Obvious many have been sold propaganda. How about the TRUTH.

Science threatens their world view so they reject it. I'd like to hear these people defend in public how the earth is but 6-10k years old, and explain fossils.

The US is not a 'Christian Nation" but founded on SECULAR law as passed down from the Magna Carta & Greek models, John Locke and the age on enlightenment.

Education, thats the answer. Unfortunately there is a wave of anti-intellectualism and hostility to 'book-learnin'. Dumbasses.

[Fire]

6. Re:

Science threatens their world view so they reject it. I'd like to hear these people defend in public how the earth is but 6-10k years old, and explain fossils.

The US is not a 'Christian Nation" but founded on SECULAR law as passed down from the Magna Carta & Greek models, John Locke and the age on enlightenment.

Education, thats the answer. Unfortunately there is a wave of anti-intellectualism and hostility to 'book-learnin'. Dumbasses.
____________________

I agree but how do we overcome that. This seems to be how the majority of the country feels even if it is wrong. They interpret calls for educating them to be condecending and people who try to persuade them to be pedantic.

[RaleighNCDUer]

3. You want a sure cure?

Back off and let them have what they want. After a decade or two of theocracy we will see a reaction that will turn churches into museums and make European religiosity look like high numbers. Church attendance will drop possibly into the single digits and the vast properties belonging to religious organizations, from fundie mega-churches to the most staid mainstream churches, will go on the auction block.

And it should cost only ten or twenty million lives.

[nickgutierrez]

4. Talk about Jesus.

For all the bible thumping and God-quoting the Republicans do, they rarely quote the man that Christians call their savior. The reason for this, of course, is that Jesus would not support them, and they know it. So, when they reach for the Bible, it's always hellfire and brimstone, with little hope and love involved.

[Al-CIAda]

8. I'm in agreement here. A heavy consistent dose of the REAL message of

Jesus would expose the phony exploiters for who they are. Shove the real message of Jesus down their throats.

[militaryWife]

12. another agreement

I think that we can use the language of religion to prove that we follow the teachings of Jesus more than the Repubs. Jesus mentioned care for the poor, children and elderly over a thousand times in the new testament, but if you read a repub. bible you would think it is all about tax cuts, political posturing and domination. Absurd!

There are starting to be a few progressive Christian websites that are trying to get the message out(www.sojo.net and faithfulprogressive.blogspot.com to name a few). While I don't always agree with everything on those sites they are very well thought out. It is a start. Unfortunately, we are about 15 years behind.

mw

[newyawker99]

46. Hi militaryWife!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[shawn703]

5. We are getting our butts kicked because we aren't framing the debate

The only reason things like the Ten Commandments, gay marriage and creationism are a major concern to those voters are because the Republicans are getting away with making them high priority issues even though there are more serious issues like the war, the economy and health care. With our issues, peoples lives are at stake, yet the "moral crusaders" turn a blind eye to them. We need to point out that Jesus' anger while he was on earth was directed at the hypocrites, and strike back by pointing out the hypocrisy of their policies, even in terms of Christianity.

[forgethell]

7. They're more serious

to us. Evidently not to the Republican voters, though. No amount of "framing" will change that. Only a convincing argument, which we seem to be lacking.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

49. See post #4. Isn't THAT convincing? (nt)

[RaleighNCDUer]

13. Problem is, we don't have the press.

Two speakers -- 1 repub, 1 dem. Repub talks about gays. Dem talks about health care. They're both putting it out there. But the press only covers one of the stories. Guess which one.

Republicans have taken the media back to the guilded age, when newspapers had specific constituencies that were reflected in their names, i.e. The Democrat Tribune, The County Republican Chronicle, etc. They took opposing stands, supporting opposing candidates. Up till the 70s, most cities still had two major, oppositional newspapers. The inflation crisis wiped out most secondary papers, and today only a few cities have more than one major paper. Those unopposed voices are almost invariably Republican run.

Where the Republicans went, we did not follow. Their press is partisan, and ours is non-existant.

We no longer have a free press. THAT is the problem.

[atreides1]

9. It's not a question of ignoring them, they just won't listen

This country wasn't established for just one single religion, it was created for all beliefs. The original intent of those that first arrived here was religious freedom after all.

71% say the U.S. is a Christian nation, well then that 71% are idiots living in lala land. Perhaps they should take some time and
read documents like the Bill of Rights, or perhaps someone should
point out that according to a treaty ratified by the U.S. Senate,
the United States is not a Christian nation.

What kind of Christians are you listening to, the kind that support a war of choice, the kind that constantly use the Old Testament to back their arguments. These are not Christian people, Xtian Taliban
maybe.

In an nutshell, unless these "Christians" are actually willing to listen, to follow the true teachings of Christ, to look beyond their
own bigotry and hatred of anything different, there is almost no way
to win them over without betraying those who we believe should have
equal rights.

Perhaps they should be shown what it is really like to be persecuted,
maybe we can get some of the more hardcore ones to volunteer for an experiment where they spend 30 days in an environment where they are truly persecuted. Like the Jews were persecuted for 2,000 years, like the Catholics were persecuted after Henry VIII created the Church of England, like the Cathars and Muslims were persecuted by the Catholic Church.

Of course there will be limits, we wouldn't be able to execute them or cause permanent physical damamge, but just give them a taste of what real persecution is.

Why don't you ask some of those that you know, who say they feel persecuted if they would want be the first ones to volunteer for such
an experiment?

See how many takers you get?

[Fire]

21. Re: "It's not a question of ignoring them, they just won't listen"

This country wasn't established for just one single religion, it was created for all beliefs. The original intent of those that first arrived here was religious freedom after all.

This is who you're preaching to:
http://www.imageshack.us>

It's the choir. WE, people who post here who I would assume are solid democrats, know this already.


In an nutshell, unless these "Christians" are actually willing to listen, to follow the true teachings of Christ, to look beyond their
own bigotry and hatred of anything different, there is almost no way
to win them over without betraying those who we believe should have
equal rights.

Perhaps they should be shown what it is really like to be persecuted,
maybe we can get some of the more hardcore ones to volunteer for an experiment where they spend 30 days in an environment where they are truly persecuted. Like the Jews were persecuted for 2,000 years, like the Catholics were persecuted after Henry VIII created the Church of England, like the Cathars and Muslims were persecuted by the Catholic Church.

Of course there will be limits, we wouldn't be able to execute them or cause permanent physical damamge, but just give them a taste of what real persecution is.

What are you talking about? This is a representative democracy.

[Skidmore]

10. Let them know that, if they want the right to peek in your bedroom,

we'll all be sure to have cameras pointed in their bedroom windows. The same laws will apply if they get them. We'll be happy to play that game. Who need privacy? It's time to play hard ball.

[Inland]

11. Not all dems and liberals want to win them over.

Unfortunately, while the first poster is clearly off her nut, there is a significant number of dems and liberals that would just as soon NOT have any attempt to win over christian believers and do have the sort of elitist, snot-nosed know it all attitude that turns off the electorate.

They would rather mock christians or engage in a dead end theological debate than respectfully address other issues.

So first you have to get an agreement on the goal.

[Fire]

29. How about persuading them to support our platform

is that not what politics is all about?

[Bridget Burke]

14. "Christianity Under Attack" is a Dominionist lie.

If you’re intellectually sensitive to the presuppositions underlying current events, you’ve already seen the explicit agenda of humanists to silence the Christian voice in America.

No doubt you are greatly disturbed by the efforts of secularists, pluralists, and false religious groups to remove the Judeo-Christian God “from every post and pillar.” The following is just a few of the wicked strategies imposed by such humanist organizations as the American Civil Liberties Union, Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, and other secular and false religious groups:

* The persecution of Chief Justice Roy Moore in Alabama
* The judicial attempts to remove Christian symbols, such as the nativity, from every public place
*The elimination of public prayer from every local and federal institution
* The promotion of gay marriage in Massachusetts and San Francisco
* The unhindered encroachment of Islam throughout Western nations

www.chalcedon.edu/underwriters.php

This is from The Chalcedon Foundation, founded by the late R J Rushdoony. He's one of the "thinkers" behind the Dominionist/Christian Reconstructionists--the folks who want to remake the USA into a sick vision of the Old Testament. They have been politically active for years now & get lots of their propaganda into the media.

Find out about these guys & tell real Christians about them. Many Evangelicals & even Fundamentalists would be appalled to find out their plans for all of us.

[MojoXN]

40. All I can say is Oy,

who let these ones out of the asylum? Quick, someone call the guys with butterfly nets!

MojoXN

[Igel]

15. You can't, any more than you can convince

many Muslims that Islam isn't under determined attack by Crusaders.

Take one scenario, with two different responses, based on religion. A guy who blows up a building and kills civilians in the name of his religion, and he's called a terrorist, his religion front and center.

If he's a self-avowed Muslim, we bend over backwards lest Muslim advocacy groups get offended.

If he's a self-avowed Christian, we question our aversion to FBI infiltration of religious groups.

Both sides pick and choose their evidence; nobody dares challenge with one with contrary evidence, or feels like "getting dirty" by challenging the other.

[knight_of_the_star]

44. One difference

The Muslims at least have a veneer of truth ie the invasion of Iraq + comments by various members of the US military along the lines of this being a crusade against Islam. It isn't completely true, but it isn't completely false. As far as Xians being under attack, with the exception of the extremists being questioned, I don't see HOW they could make that kind of bs up that actually has support.

[markus]

16. People who believe in Xian Persecution in the US

have drifted outside the pale. I don't know that you can directly recover people who have drifted so far of into La-La Land. I think the issue is how do you contain them by maginalizing them.

They need to be put in the same box as Jim Jones and the flying saucer cultists where they belong. Then they can moan all they want, and no one will care.

[Fire]

18. Re: "People who believe in Xian Persecution in the US"

What is the "pale?" These people are a majority. When they moan, laws do change. Do you think the gay marriage amendments that passed in every state they were in materialized from nothing? Don't underestimate them or cast them aside. They have to be recovered if democrats want to win.

[Cats Against Frist]

23. I agree with the poster -- they have to be marginalized, ridiculed

called out for the anti-Enlightenment, anti-democratic, pro-Dark Ages whack-a-moles that they are. Draw a clear line of demarcation, so the slow idiots in the middle might be able to see the difference between a "just and virtuous society" that welcomes the free practice of religion, and a pre-modern, knuckledragging, oppressive form of cultural fascism, disguised as the divine.

I'd start with the marginalization. Dredge up that condoms cause cancer, and that they want the death penalty for reading Maxim magazine. Get the preachers from the megachurches on every television, talking about "visions." Show the holy Starbucks. The pyrotechnics of the big-bowl brainwash churches. Get Doblooney and Fallcrazy on every television station. They're their own worst enemy -- but they can be helped along with a healthy dose of ridicule.

[markus]

35. They are not a majority

There is not a majority that believes that Xians are persecuted in this country. If you have some poll numbers on that I'd love to see them

There is a small, delusional but vocal minority.

[Pacifist Patriot]

26. I agree.....

Here are the concluding paragraphs to an essay I wrote last week.

"....Considering the example being set by our elected officials we shouldn't be surprised by the religious intolerance demonstrated today. We have Senator Frist broadcasting to church services claiming religious persecution against judicial nominees.

In the last few years, I have had several fundamentalist Christians tell me they felt they were being persecuted for their religion in contemporary America. Until they are prohibited by a court from sharing their beliefs with their own child, drive by a sign that insists the Bible should be flushed down a toilet, made to graduate from a government institution with a 25 foot Pentagram in the background or forced to recite an amended pledge of allegiance that defies their religious beliefs, they have no right to utter the word persecution. Christians who feel persecuted in contemporary America should take a moment to recall the horror of 20th century Europe under Hitler, the genocides in Africa or the present strife in the Levant. That, my Christian friends, is religious persecution."

The person who wrote the above diatribe is clearly not dealing with reality and certainly not interested in debating based on facts.

[LittleClarkie]

17. This sounds like a job for....

Christians for Kerry! Dum da da DAAAAAAA!

Don't worry your pretty head, darlin'. We'll be on the front line of THAT fight.

I'm sick of being made to feel I'm somehow a second-hand Christian because I'm not a Fundamentalist and not a Bush voter.

They do NOT own God.

[DrGonzoLives]

19. The Democrats

have failed in the debate on this aspect, and have instead allowed the Republicans to fight the battle on their own terms. For instance, it's not about "gay marriage," it's about a rampaging federal government trying to define what love and commitment are. You'll win a hell of a lot more converts to your side using that argument than with railing about gay marriage.

[Roland99]

20. They've framed it well. But, we all know it's not all Christians

In fact, it's only a very vocal minority of fake Christians.


We need to get the word out they are false of faith and not real Christians.

[Cynot]

41. The Dems are closer to real Christian values.

You are right. Any knowledgeable Christian should be a Democrat. We stand for looking after the poor and we are against the power of the rich. At least, most of us are. And these values are much closer to what Jesus preached than what the Repugs stand for. We have got to get out that message. We need to embrace Christians and get their votes in the upcoming elections.

[Roland99]

43. I'm an atheist and I think I follow Jesus' teachings better than them.

[newyawker99]

47. Hi Cynot!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Cats Against Frist]

22. I think secession is the answer

Let it be that we embrace the elitism that they think we so embrace. Elitism was essential to the Enlightenment philosophy on which this nation was founded. Think of the binary-oppositional construct -- if someone is "enlightened," there is a non-enlightened state, which defines it. That state, my friends, is the grandparents of today's radical Christian movement -- the Dark Ages, Church & King devine authority, et. al.

I hate Marx because he came and screwed it up. I like the tenets of the collective -- the "just society" is also a part of our heritage -- but Marx distracted us. Who remembers the elitism that founded this nation? Why, the neocons, and their Strauss -- they're beating us to shit with elitism -- the "philosopher" king, instead of the "divine" king. Maniuplate the dull freepers for an army of water carriers. Tell them the "noble lie."

This is the only way we get out from under the Christo-fascists. Mark my words. It worked, last time.

[melissinha]

24. When I hear "freedom", "Christian" and "justice"

I can't even stand to hear the words "freedom", "Christian" and "justice", because it is generally a tip-off to some radical Chrito-fascist that can't come up with any valuable arguments and rely upon standard words like "freedom", "Christian" and "justice" to carry them, when in fact they are stripping the true meanings of those words by dishonoring them with their actions... it makes me sick.. and quite often sad.

[Pacifist Patriot]

25. I'm sorry, but I don't consider the person who wrote that to be sane.

How does one argue with the mentally diseased? And I am in NO WAY making light of mental illness. Trust me!

[geckosfeet]

27. I have been ignoring them very successfully. Just wish they would

leave me alone as well.

[tmorelli415]

28. Christian Nation?

I think part of the problem is that when they hear us say, "this is not a Christian nation," they think that means we don't like Christianity or religion in general. They need to understand that in fact the vast majority of liberals identify themselves as Judeo-Christain, and those who do not usually have a deep sense of personal 'reverence' and/or personal faith that guides them to be caring, responsible and respectful contributors to society. Of course, what we mean is that while this country may be one that is primarily made up of people who have a Judeo-Chirstian faith tradtio - and certainly a belief in and reverence for God, and a power greater than one's self has been important to the hsitory and development of our country - it is precisely because we do not and have never defined ourselves in religous terms as a nation that allows each and every one of us to worship (or not worship) as we please. We are not offended by and large at the concept of a nation that is in reality guided by the noble teachings of Jesus (love one another, take care of the poor, render unto Caeser, respect for all life, what we do to the least among us we do to ourselves, etc.), but we are offended that the term 'Christian' or any religioius label is assigned greater value and co-opted for political advantage. Because we also know that there are lots of people who don't agree with our own faith system (heck, I'd be surprised if any two individuals in this country entirely agree on any religious matter), but they are good people and have as much to offer as the rest of us. In short, we are not a 'Christian nation' precisely to ensure that we will remain a nation of Christians ... and Jews, and Moslems, and even Purple People Eater worshippers. It is not because we 'hate' Christianity per se, or any person of faith in particular that we deny we are a 'Christian nation' - it is because we care so much about our own faith, and because faith is so important to us as individuals and as a nation that we won't allow any religious label to be handled so irreverently and carelessly as to dilute it into political slogan.

[loudsue]

30. ANSWER: Call it for what it is; clearly, loudly and often.

The big mega-church corporations

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/052805A.shtml

control the talking points, and make sure everyone is on cue. So, the only way to counter that, is to talk about their methods.

America tends to be a dysfunctional family these days, in that nobody is willing to talk about the elephant in the living room. All it takes is to speak the truth, clearly, and call bullshit exactly where it is.

Remember the lessons the Scotsman brought to the Senate last week? That's what I'm talking about. Just call a spade 'a spade' and let the chips fall.

Cuts right through the bullshit.


:kick:

[Lexingtonian]

31. treat 'em like the naughty petulant children they are

215 years of independence and domination by Christians, and if this isn't the country they wanted- they might want to consider that ideology a failure. If it hasn't worked yet, how can it possibly work out in the future?

As for "Stacie", the voices in her head and on her radio seem to drown out reality pretty well. Maybe she should stop blaming other people for the problems of society and get to actually doing something constructive about them.

As for Christian underprivilege, that's just whining about how the amount of entitlement involved has diminished. Exactly why can't it compete on equal terms and "win"? (I've never gotten a coherent answer to that one.) A true and humble Christianity is not an entitlement program. It doesn't need affirmative action- unless it happens to be corrupted- if the New Testament is correct, right?

Christianity started off as a passive-aggressive religion of politically inferior people, as the creed of slaves. It attracts people with inferiority problems, and American Christianity still insists on solutions to things that are based in notions of inferiority, faux superiority (a sign of inferiority), and inadequacy of the average adherent.

All that can really be said to the conservative Christian adherent is that their politics is a set of idolatries to liberals. Conservative Christianity engages in idolatry of the idea of Sin, idolatry in the way it reads the Bible, idolatry of the idea of a Devil, and idolatry of Nature aka paganism in the form of Creationism, their anti-gay behavior, and their fertility cultist beliefs about abortion. Just about everything culture-political about conservative Christianity is in fact lifted from pre-Christian paganisms, including public demonstrative prayer and a need for temples full of images of their deities. None of these politics are in fact genuinely Biblical- Jews do not agree that the Old Testament forbids abortion, or gay marriage, or supports Creationism, or that life is improved by graven images of even the Ten Commandments in government buildings. If anything, aren't conservative Christians in trouble with the Commandment that says "Thou shalt not bear false witness" when they assert that these political positions are indeed Biblical?

There isn't a way to reconcile being an American with a liberal sense of justice, i.e. that the rights enumerated in Section 1 of the 14th Amendment are to be enforced, with the conservative paganized Christian desire for an entitled/privileged way of life, as I see it.

But what is possible for liberal folks to live with is humbler, de-paganized, Christianities. Christianities that serve justice and the unfortunate rather than the interests of power and privilege, whatever their beliefs and manner of reading the Bible. Christianities that seek healing and personal struggle for purity and service rather than blaming and projection and cheap grace. In short, Christianities that actually are Christian, inspired, creative.

[autorank]

32. Here's what we say everywhere:

"My opponent seems to be obsessed with the subject of homosexuality. He talks about it a great deal and, apparently, he's thinking about it a lot. I say lets all mind our own business, you never know what people may say about you. And let's let my opponent have lots of free time to think about his favorite subject, after we defeat him on election night."

Fuck them. Let's tell the truth. Our political opponents are obsessed with thinking and talking about homosexuality. They say they're straight. What's their major malfunction?

If the American people want to go to Hell in a hand basket on this issue, there is nothing we can do about it ultimately. We can mock the Republicans for their strange obsession.

I'm for gay marriage, don't think about it much and it's not my top issue. So when Clark and Kerry,etc. said they didn't support the state referendums, I just thought OK, they're cool about it but don't want to fall on their sword.

Here is a nice term that describes the Republicans.

Reaction formation: "The blocking of desire by the opposite."

NEW LEADERS FOR A NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY!

Contact the DNC and Give 'em Hell About NOT Acting on Election Fraud

[snowbear]

33. Smart Americans are starting to see through the B.S.

They didn't like Mr. Bush like using Terri Schiavo's personal family matters for political gain, they didn't like Reverand Chan Chandler kicking out non-Bushie church members, they didn't like Bill Frist's phony televagalist appearance, and basically....

...they pretty much don't like the continual LIES that come out of this administration.

The extreme radical "Dobson type" though.. fahgettaboutit.. :nuke:

And remember.. it was the M-E-D-I-A that claimed "family values" are the reason Bush won. Tell that to all the people who cast their votes in Wally O'Dell's DieBold Machines...

[markus]

36. If these numbers were true and solid

We see numbers like these because we have not confronted the nut jobs of either the religious or the plain-old Limbaugh looney right. They have spent the last 20-30 years putting nonsense out into the public domain

Until we confront them at the water cooler and everywhere else we might meet them, we can't turn that around.

[PaDem]

37. 20 plus years of Republican Strategy

is paying off in spades. The Repubs are winning becuase they have been running campaigns under the assumption that the American electorate is stupid. The Dems have tried to appeal to the electorate's intillect. The Repubs have the right idea. The family values rehtoric is an appeal to the lowest common denominator and very diversionary.

[markus]

38. About the poll itself

It was condcuted December 1-16, 2004. This is the time of year when all of the vaguely religious begin to think about the X in Xmas. I think this might skew results. It's a lot easier to tell a poster God Is Great and Bush is His Profit than it is to actually do something Xian. I'd love to see the same respondents polled June 1-16.

Also, should the government do more to protect morality in society? Net 51 to 40 say now.

Books that contain dangerous ideas should be banned from public school libraries (44%) or to carry any books they want (51%).

The growing number of newcomers from other countries threaten traditional American customs and values (40%) or strengthens American society (50%).

Most people think that the U.S. is a Xian nation in the same way they think it's a English-speaking nation or northern hemisphere nation.

It's been fun, but I think we can stop panicing how (my prior posts included) and return to figure out how to turn that gay marraige number around.

Oh, and read the numbers of some of the Bush issues. When this poll was taken, 54% favored some privitization of Social Security. My how things do change when you're a lame duck and the house is falling around your head, don't it?

[MojoXN]

39. Well, she's a fucking liar about one thing...

She didn't used to be a Democrat, or a democrat, for that matter. A religious zealot, sure, a DINO, probably, a homophobe, undoubtedly, but a Democrat? How dare she sully my party's good name by claiming association! For the record, I have no problem with creationism being taught in Biology class, as long as I can teach Quantum Mechanics during the (insert denomonation here) Sunday "why you're a sinner and will suffer for it" session. Also, displaying the Ten Commandments is fine, provided that the Buddhist eightfold path, the Satanic eleven commandments, etc. are displayed just as prominently. But that would defeat the purpose of the Jesusians desire to make this country exist solely as a big J.C. based theocracy now wouldn't it?


Also, won't they be shocked when Saint Peter tells them, "Sorry, but you didn;t follow the teaching of Christ. No, he never said that being gay was wrong. No, he never said that you should support violence done in his name. No, he certainly never spoke with George W. Bush! Oh, you're another one of THOSE! The ones who got suckered by that slick con-artist! Sorry, but Jesus Himself told you that theonly path to salvation was through Him. No, He didn't mean that you could just BELIEVE in Him and go to heaven, you had to practice what He preached. Oh, you didn't? Wasted your time practicing what Bush preached instead? Pity. Well, I hope you'll enjoy your eternity in the flaming pits of Hell. Send George my regards, would you? He did God a big favor, what with making sure all you hypocritical Christians were kept out of Heaven and all. Tata!"

MojoXN
MojoXN

[melissinha]

42. Its not Christianity its about fear

BTW the St. Peter scenario was awesome!!!!

Really I don't think we "lost" the election... it was stolen... but we lost a lot of "independent voters" to one thing... the most powerful emotion. FEAR.... we shouldn't be concerned with trying to fit into their Christian mold.. even though we logically fit into it.

No we need to address the true culprit of this decaying democracy...
I don't care of you guys do make fun of me for this....

Its all in Revenge of the Sith.... FEAR... Palpatine planted the fear of losing Padme into Anakin.. that is what drove him to turn to the darkside.Period.

Yoda gives a synopsis of this to Luke in Return of the Jedi "Fear is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you."

Luke feared losing his friends as Anakin feared losing Padme. But he had been warned by Yoda who had seen it happen 20 years before. Hindsight is 20/20.

Current political climate well you all know it... fear of Al Qaeda, fear of Saddam, fear of catching the gay disease, fear of "tyranny", fear of sex, fear of financial instability.... it all fits .. BUSHCIO has done so well.. look at the Patriot Act.. its just like the formation of the Empire in Star Wars....

[XemaSab]

48. The other day

I was driving through Riverside County, CA and there was a sermon on the radio about Jesus and the Cleansing of the Temple. Usually I listen to radio sermons to see what the fundie freaks are talking about, but I found myself fascinated by the explanation of the historical and cultural context of the moneychangers and dove merchants and how they came to be doing business in the temple. The preacher gave some great parallels between the cleansing of the temple and the cursing of the fig tree.

Then the dude went on to say that this sort of thing is happening in our own time, and of course... wait for it... it's all about the abortionists (D&C specifically) and gays.

Now I'm not a preacher, but I could have given some terrific examples of official corruption in modern times that have nothing to do with abortionists and gays, and I'm sure anyone here could do the same.

It seems to me to be a real failure on the part of the Left that we have let them turn ANY discussion of faith into a discussion of D&C abortion, gays, evolution, stem cell research, euthanasia, the ten commandments, and one or two other hot-button issues.

The other day I was talking to my friend and he was telling me about charity distribution at Buddhist temples. Also, I know that Islam has a very strong tradition of charity.

The New Testament has as strong a message of charity as that of any other faith, if not stronger, but why is the left not pushing this? At some point we need to jump in there and tell these people what.

We're never going to talk them out of their persecution complex because that's what unites them as surely as white supremicists think that the white man is under attack. The persecution complex will always be there, but we need to make some gesture towards the moderates that shows that we share their concerns about issues like violence in the media and other "family values" issues that are not so contentious. If we do this they will be unable to paint us as satanic, which they are doing now.