Before Shooting Off Our Mouths, What Facts do We Know Up Front???

[DemocracyInaction]

A poster this a.m. indicated that the three judges we are going to let through (oh jesus christ the sky is falling) are being appointed to courts that are already in the back pocket of the conservative assholes. Their appointments mean zip nuttin' to the leanings of those courts. On the other hand the two we stopped would change their courts into conservative courts - their appointments would actually have an impact. I'd like to know the particulars before I run around going insane. It's kind of idiotic to get all unglued if these appointments mean basically squat. Gee, wouldn't it be a terrible disappointment if we found out that our Dems are NOT the flaming, dumb fuckheads we assume they are???

Oh, and by the way, what kind of 'victory' did you expect?? Had this not happened, ALL their judges would go through as the filibuster was definitely eliminated. And after we pulled our hissy fit of slowing down the Senate, the repubs would have bashed us in the media as obstructing the people's business and within weeks we would have found that the Dem Party was hated roundly throughout the nation. And our Dems then would have given up the fight and gone back to business as beaten dogs. Come on....you've been around enough to know that that is exactly what the ultimate outcome would have been. Bottom line: as a totally powerless minority, we did damn good on this one.

[ewagner]

1. Agree

I made some of the same points last night.

[aden_nak]

2. I'll take "Subjects You'll Never See at FreeRepublic.com" for $200, Alex.

[TheGunslinger]

19. LOL!

[gordianot]

3. True this is not over. Pubs did not have enough votes to nuke anyone.

The Moderate Republicans betrayed them which is wonderful.

They also avoided a Civil War in the Senate.

[wurzel]

4. The Dems made one huge mistake

When they lost power they believed the repukes would behave in power as the Dems had behaved. Now they know different. And everyone should get the message. The Repukes are not like the Dems but with a different agenda. The Repukes really don't believe in democracy. That is why they keep talking about it. Dean is fond of pointing out that you can't trust the Republicans with your money. You can't trust them with power either.

[Pacifist Patriot]

6. That is a mistake I will agree with.

I don't think they are likely to make it again.

[wurzel]

16. I sure hope not. But

Democrats still believe in the democratic process. They would not be Dems if they didn't. And they will always be vulnerable. But they must learn that, ironically, they can only afford to be democratic when they are in power. To get power they will have to be as ruthless as the Repukes.

[Pacifist Patriot]

5. The pessimism and negativity is really getting to me.

This issue is far more complex than "holding ground" or "caving in." You make excellent points. In addition there is the PR angle which cannot be ignored. We now have an opportunity to exploit a perceived weakness and take advantage of the Republican in-fighting.

I maintain that party discipline is one of the reasons Republicans are in the position they are in today. They have it. We don't. I'm not suggesting anyone should vote against their conscience but the willingness to give up on our party leaders and elected officials is a little too quick off the starting block much of the time in my opinion.

I keep hearing how the Democratic party is in shambles and no longer viable and I have to wonder how active the people are who are making this claim. I joined my county DEC six months ago and became a precinct captain. We started 2004 with less than 40 members and are about to break 200 at the next meeting. Our new chairman and committee chairs are amazing and incredibly energetic. I urge anyone who thinks the Democratic party is in shambles to attend your county's next meeting. If you don't like what you see. Change it!

Bitching and moaning never got anyone anywhere.

[DemocracyInaction]

Pacifist--we quickly forget that half the country voted Dem

The other half voted for the regime - that group was a coalition of fairly normal republicans and the idiot fringe of the Christian right. Unless we go out and for no goddamn reason (hence my post about these judges and what their impact really is or isn't)divide up this party, we have the makings of one mother crack in their structure. It was predicted this would eventually happen and it began taking place last night. We were perishing and trodding along. Someone just gave us a horse and it's about goddamn time we got up on it and rode - right over the republicans.

[Pacifist Patriot]

9. Agreed

Except I'm a nutcase conspiracy theorist and I think well over half of the voters voted for (or intended to vote for) Kerry. ;)

[tgnyc]

11. PR angle?

MOst Americans weren't really paying attention to begin with. Now they have headlines like one in today's New York Times calling it a "modest victory" for Bush. That's our PR angle?

[wurzel]

17. Are Dems more organized and united now ?

Than under Carter or even Clinton? I would argue yes they are. And a lot more realistic. Dems are beginning to understand that these Repukes in power now are not their "opponents". They really are an enemy of occupation here as in Iraq.

[Dhalgren]

7. I guess we'll just take anything that we can remotely

construe as a "victory" and run with it. I guess when you are on death row and your execution is postponed for a month, that can be considered a "victory" of sorts. But when the Republicans come back in a few weeks or a couple of months and kill the filibuster, this "compromise" won't feel so victorious. These Pukes are playing the game for keeps, they will do anything to maintain and grow their power - anything. One thing we all should have learned by now: You - Can - Not - Trust - Republicans...

[Goblinmonger]

8. "So this is how Liberty ends; with thunderous applause" n/t

[Pacifist Patriot]

10. Two points.

1. This is not the end of democracy.

2. Even those who are accepting the compromise aren't exactly applauding. Perhaps enjoying the Republican cannibalism over the deal, but not applauding.

I don't understand why a legislative compromise is considered undemocratic. Isn't that what we send them to Washington to do? The Senate rules weren't changed. The Republican leadership couldn't get it done. So yes, I'll applaud that aspect of it.

[Goblinmonger]

12. The Senate rules weren't changed

on paper. Yet. We won't be able to do anything without the Repugs calling us deal breakers. They will push through whomever they want. We get maybe two filibusters before our "extreme" blocking is done.

If you think they won't get rid of the filibuster the first time it blocks somebody they really want, then clouded by the power of the dark side you are.

[RaleighNCDUer]

14. Compromise with the repubs is like compromising with Hitler.

On our side, we compromise to give up less than everything. On their side they compromise to take less than everything. They still take, we still give.

We give them the Sudetenland, and next year they'll be back for the rest of Czechoslovakia.

When they compromise, they win. When we compromise, we lose.

[Goblinmonger]

15. Since this seems to be my thread for Star Wars quotes

"What if the democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists, and the Republic has become the very evil we have been fighting to destroy."

Nobody has yet told me why the Dems aren't acting like an opposition party. Galloway showed us how and we shat on the example.

[lastliberalintexas]

13. Well, if you don't live in the 5th

you might not have anything to worry about in the *near* future. So let's just fuck the workers, minorities, and women in the 5th for having the gall to live down here. That's a great way to keep voters happy.

But really, ANY appointment made to a LIFETIME position is important. Even though not controlling, other circuits will still look to the decisions of the 5th circuit and others to see if there is a consensus opinion before ruling. Even the liberal 9th will look at other circuits, if there is no controlling SC opinion. So in reality, these appointments made to already conservative circuits do matter.


But also, the compromise only postpones the eventual showdown. Once O'Connor retires and her right wing wacko nominee is named, the nuclear option will rear its ugly head yet again. And at that point, since we backed down now, we might not have the public support that we did for this fight.

We had the support of the overwhelimg majority of the American public. I don't see how you think we could have lost in this- other than by compromising, that is.

[K8-EEE]

18. Thanks For Your Insight

I don't know a lot about the workings of Senate deals and all that, and have only been able to listen to snippets of news today. Finding lots of thoughful analysis here at DU and lots of illogical ranting at FR. Just that alone is a good thing!