"This" Was A Win For:

[Dinger]

[morgan2]

1. whatever crazy republican

ends up in front of these judges.

[cyclezealot]

2. for the Repugs..

Would you not guess the Repug in Dem clothing Liebermann sold us out.....Agreement says..can't filibuster unless you have extradorinary reasons...Priscilla Owens and Janice Rogers are extradorinary reasons...
Liebermann says there is nothing wrong with a Scalia Chief Justice ...all our liberties are shot to hell...

[paineinthearse]

4. agree

Two fascists will be seated FOR LIFE. Dems should have held firm and stood on principle.

Thomas Jefferson is spinning in his grave.

[kainah]

16. agreed and...

if Bush tries to elevate either (or Pryor) to the SupCt, I think everyone who worked on this agreement will agree that that is an extraordinary circumstance.

Moreover, I think the paragraph about the advise and consent clause is very significant. Sorry it doesn't seem to want me to cut and paste but this is important language: "We encourage the Executive branch of government to consult with members of the Senate, both Democratic and Republican, prior to submitting a judicial nomination to the Senate for consideration. Such a return to the early practices of our government may well serve to reduce the rancor that unfortunately accompanies the advice and consent process in the Senate."

[cyclezealot]

34. our polls show this a win for Democrats. you're dreming.

We are on our way to virtually every Bush nominee getting in unchallenged....Bush takes the advice and consent aspect for each states' senators to be meaningless...Suddenly this makes Bush want to be reasonable...get real..that is why a state's senators lost the consultation role to begin with..and why the administration no longer seeks the advice of the ratings of the ABA....
only the consultation of the 'Federalist society' matters...
we will shorty have a right wing court with other members speaking tongues along with Thomas...Hope they don't speak in tongues in session....Lawyers don't know that language...
the Democrats take this agreement seriously, then it will fly apart..don't see Frist's put his stamp on it...

[radfringe]

36. the "compromise"

OWENS and BROWN get their up/down vote (filibuster free)

no commitment on a filibuster for the other nominees

so - what's to stop repugs from causing another showdown when these other nominees come up for a vote? NOTHING

the filibuster has not been preserved - it's in a holding pattern until the next time the Dems consider using the filibuster, then it's deja vu all over again

I know alot of DUer's are seeing this as a victory - "i.e. made the repugs compromise" -- it's no win for either side - it's a "temporary cease fire" that won't last

[bvar22]

3. It was a WIN for the Republicans, and

the Republican Wing of the Democratic Party.

These Senators, alone and without Party consensus, brokered a DEAL that will put 3 Fanatical Corporatist Judges on the Federal Bench. They PRESERVED NOTHING for the Democratic Party.

Here are the traitors:

Joe Lieberman--DLC

Ben Nelson---DLC

Mary Landrieu---DLC

Mark Pryor---DLC

Ken Salazar---no DLC listing, PHenry rating -(minus)100

Kent Conrad---No DLC listing, PHenry rating -(minus)97.5

Robert Byrd---No DLC listing, PHenry rating -(minus) 60

These are the MOST conservative PRO-CORPORATE anti LABOR Democratic Senators in Washington DC.
Did they serve YOU, or their Corporate Masters?

(I hate seeing one of my heroes on this list, but there he is, just like the Bankruptcy Bill.

[saltpoint]

5. For the Democrats, they get to preserve the filibuster.

It's a flawed tool, but we don't have the votes to discard it right now.

Frist looks like a ninny. Well, he IS a ninny, but he never looked more LIKE a ninny than tonight.

The "14" senators may earn extra leverage on legislative initiatives from this point forward.

Who the hell knows where Arlen Specter was?

Dick Cheney may have believed that he would strut into the Senator tomorrow to cast the deciding vote in favor of vaporizing the filibuster. As of this evening, Dick can take the night off and go bowling.

By week's end, the pundits will generally agree that Bush, Cheney, Frist, and Dobson looked weak and Reid & the Dems looked like winners.

[AndyTiedye]

9. The Pundits Will Agree to Whatever Karl Rove Tells Them To Say

He owns them.

They'll paint it as a big win for the right wing, since they're
getting the worst of their judges confirmed, and they can always
go nuclear another day.

We could have accomplished the same thing (given away less, actually),
if we had simply stopped debating without a cloture vote.

It is a lose-lose for us, and they will delight in painting it that way.
They will also spin it so that the repubs will come off looking like
roses when they eventually reneg and :nuke: the filibuster anyway.

[saltpoint]

13. Some but not all. The Press, such as it is, will have a --

-- relatively different relationship with the White House as 2008 comes on. It will be gradual, maybe, but Bush will not run again.

If Rove is not connected to McCain in some sort of Machiavellian future scheme for McCain's own White House run, then Rovian influence will wane as Dubya's 2nd term proceeds.

Tonight, several GOP moderates stopped Rove/Frist in their tracks on the floor of the Senate.

I wouldn't give up the fight just yet.

[AndyTiedye]

49. Rove Will be Working for Bush3, Catkiller, Condi or Whomever they Annoit

Whoever Rove works for will, of course, get nothing but glowing media
coverage.

As we learned in 2004, they only need their base and the voting machinez.

[MADem]

11. Who the hell knows where Arlen Specter was?

Getting chemo, maybe??? He is pretty sick...he's lost all his hair and is very thin.

[saltpoint]

18. Forgive me if I sounded as if I were ridiculing his health.

I'm aware of his illness and if that's why he's playing so low a profile, I retract the comment.

But he is the chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee and unless I'm just uninformed, he was nowhere present, either in forceful opposition to Frist's initiative, or with the "14" and their compromise.

Did not mean to belittle the man owing to his health.

[MADem]

28. He was there, I found a photo of him with Frist and posted it elsewhere

Here it is again...
Senate Majority Leader Bill First, with other Republican Sens. Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, left, Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, right, and Jim Bunning of Kentucky, second right, speaks to reporters on Capitol Hill, Monday, May 23, 2005, in Washington. Senators are locked in a fierce fight over what is required to approve President Bush's judicial nominees, Republicans want them seated with a simple majority vote, Democrats want to retain the right to block selected nominations with a debate or filibuster that can only be stopped with 60 votes. (AP Photo/Manuel Balce Ceneta)


Maybe he was the guy who delivered the "You're fucked" report to PissyFrist...or maybe he is just patting the guy's hand and saying "There, there." Time will tell...

[saltpoint]

30. Ok, there he is.

Well, I wish two things for Arlen, then.

First, I wish he has a turn of good health and is not in more pain.

And second, I hope he switches parties and votes with the Democrats.

[Cha]

12. Arlen could be sick from

chemo.

http://www.wireless-doc.com/lex/blog/2005/02/sen-arlen-spector-diagnosed-with.htm

[saltpoint]

20. Yes, zidzi. See my post #18 above...

Didn't mean to attack Specter if his abscence was health-related.

I just noticed that he was not much involved and wondered why a Judiciary Chairman was not more present in the proceedings.

I oppose Specter's voting record strongly but I honestly do wish him the best health.

[Cha]

22. Oh, I know you wouldn't..

If I hadn't have seen a couple of posts about him ..I wouldn't have known anything, either..I was just trying to let you know what may have happened to him.

[saltpoint]

27. I appreciate the heads-up and say thanks to you & Madem for it.

[cyclezealot]

35. Specter's record is not that great.

I wish him good health in his retirement...Pa has a Democratic governor...and, remember Specter has not the guts to take on Dubya's many unqualified nominees....That was the agreement or else the right wingers would have had him diposed...they made that threat and Specter was pretty much silenced...he is just a titular chair..
his illness can be a cop out that way...

[Frances]

6. I think it will help the Dems in 2006 elections

because Dems were able to paint Frist as a loser.

[pgh_dem]

15. That's gonna be one big loss for Frist, sure.....

Oh no, he'll only get every single one of Bush's appointees seated.

Since this agreement agrees to vote for cloture on 5 of 7 outstanding, and does not explicitly say the filibuster will stay in place for the remaining two, and in fact says the Dems will only filibuster in 'extraordinary' circumstances...Frist wins all around.

He'll make a big stink, and Dobson will, too...but yet again, the Republicans will get *everything* they wanted. By 2006, all the halfwits they count on will have forgotten anything but that all the judges will be seated.

Call it a victory...call it mashed potatoes with a frisbee in it...they don't care what you call it...they get what they want.

[despairing optimist]

7. A win for the spineless, a loss for the rest of us

From the Iraq War Resolution and the Patriot Act to bankruptcy and Social Security "reform" to an infamous Memorandum of Understanding, the US has reached a new nadir of national disgrace. No one can argue that there exists but one party with two wings to it. It's time for something better, and the Democrats have clearly failed. If Bush has no mandate, the Dems marked down theirs to move. Girlie men indeed. A shameful bunch of cowardly sellouts. Losers never win.

[CWebster]

47. And now even the "Nation" is pimping

for Hillary Clinton.

[jfalchion]

8. another choice

The real choice should be between (1) the American People and (2) Karl Rove and the Plutocrats.

[Catch22Dem]

10. The Dems, and anyone who thinks otherwise...

Is dealing in reality where, in politics, there is no real-world reality, only political reality. In the real world, some seriously fucked up judges are going to be confirmed, which is a loss for you and me. In the political world, this is a huge win for the Dems.

If people aren't able to understand these nuances, they aren't dealing in political reality.

[AndyTiedye]

14. I Guess It is a Win if the Mugger Doesn't Shoot You After Taking Your $$$

[Catch22Dem]

17. That's not an analogy that makes sense politically. (n/t)

[AndyTiedye]

24. It is a Pretty Good Analogy

The mugger took all the money we were carrying -- i.e. extorted a promise to let Owen and Brown slide --
in exchange for not killing us this time.
I think we agree that the nuclear option kills us.

The mugger is still out there, of course, and we'll see him again next payday,
and the one after that,
and the one after that.

[Catch22Dem]

29. Ok, let's roll with that for a minute

I agree, it is a good analogy. My apologies there.

Let's say the mugger is part of a large gang. The leader of the gang is on his way out, and your mugger has been bragging about how he's going to take your money and shoot you. He wants to use this as his opportunity to make a name for himself, and perhaps lead the gang soon.

He's got all his mugger friends fired up about it too. They're all ready to see you get mugged and shot. They're practically frothing at the mouth. Even the papers are talking about it. "Mugger Plans to Rob and Kill Andy" is in the headlines for weeks.

Now, he steals your money, but doesn't shoot you. He lets you walk away.

What does he say to his mugger friends? He's too weak to lead the gang, that's what they'll say. He can't even shoot the "girly man" he's mugging! Now, muggers all over the city are not being taken seriously.

[Guaranteed]

40. It's a win when the mugger goes around bragging about killing you

and taking all your money and he only gets the three bucks off of you that you dropped on the ground and you kick him in the head and laugh at him as he runs away.

That's a win.

[AndyTiedye]

50. So What Will He Do After That, the Next Time We See Him?

I think you know the answer.

[Internut]

19. Here's the political reality:

The Democratic senators in the group agreed that they would only support filibusters of "extreme" candidates. But, in order for the agreement to hold, the Republican senators in the group have to agree with the Democratic senators that the candidate is, in fact, "extreme". But - if these 7 Republicans agree that the candidate is "extreme", they would not vote for him/her, so the filibuster is not needed anyway. Conclusion: the Democrats hold no cards at all.

On the other hand, if the Republican senators in the group think the candidate is not "extreme", they either veto the filibuster or open up the "nuclear" option again. They hold ALL the cards.

So - it is a loss for Democrats. It is a win for the seven Republican senators.

[IndianaGreen]

21. Calling this a win for Democrats is like saying Bush is winning in Iraq

Two lies don't make it true!

[Catch22Dem]

23. This is gonna play in the media as egg on the face of GOP leadership

That's the reality. Don't you know? Reality is what the talking heads say it is. You and I both know this deal stinks to high heaven, but the repukes are gonna be the ones who will look as though they backed down. The media has been playing up the "nuclear option" for a month non-stop, and now the pukes have backed down in the face of pressure. That's how the stories are going to go.

[AndyTiedye]

25. Karl is Making Some Phone Calls

It won't go like that for long (if at all).

[Internut]

26. Enjoy the "image" -

since that's all you got from this. They got basically an assurance of either no more judicial filibusters from Democrats or a resurrected "nuclear" option. Tell me which is worth more.

[MADem]

31. You know, you have just made an EXCELLENT point

The media is already pissed off at the administration, and it took that Isikoff stink, when the WH went after THEIR turf, to get them off their asses and thinking and reporting in even slightly critical fashion.

And as we have all learned here, often to our dismay, people are so damn stupid that they believe that IMAGE, or FIRST IMPRESSION, is REALITY.

If someone throws a large handful of shit at you, that is the handful you remember best...subsequent shit, even if it stinks more, doesn't resonate as much. So from that point of view, the GOP is gonna have to play some serious catch-up to regain high ground in the minds of the inattentive.

[bvar22]

37. NOPE

The Republicans are going to look like the Great Compromisers. AND they get 3 fanatical Corporatists on the federal bench for LIFE and possible a SC seat for one of them.

The Democrats got......exactly what they had yesterday. Keep your eye on the ball, not the spin. Since when does DU care what the Media or the Freepers say. George Bush, Dick Cheney, and their Corporate Pals are celebrating today.

Repubs----3
Dems------0

[CWebster]

48. It isn't going like that at all

that is your political reality--the media always spins towards the Right no matter what.

[cyclezealot]

39. you think they know extreme

when Liebermann does not know Scalia to be extreme..or the nomineess Owen and Rogers-Brown to not be extreme..!
or even Sen.Lincoln Chafee does not know John Bolton( last I read) to be extreme..we all better define extreme.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[aion]

33. A win? What do you have that you didn't have a week ago?

This reminds me of those fools who pay a buck to buy a lottery ticket, and when they discover that the ticket is a $1 'winner' they strut about and call it a win. It is not a win, it is a break-even. Calling it a win is foolish.

Similarly, democrats have nothing more than they had before. The filibuster stands. Okay. That's not a win. That's a break-even...but it's not, now is it? Three extremist judges are going through, and I will be quite surprised if the other two withdraw their own names or have their names withdrawn by Bush.

What did we 'win'? Nothing. We actually lost, because 3 judges ARE going through. Period! We did, however, KEEP (not win) our republic form of government.

Those are the facts. Spin it however it makes you feel best if it helps you sleep at night. But let's be intellectually honest among ourselves here.

[Guaranteed]

38. What did we lose?

We ended up with less extremist judges than it would have been, they took the nuke option off the table, and we retained the filibuster.

Doesn't sound like a loss to me.

[aion]

41. A Gain for Republicans is a loss for us.

Well, if you consider the fact that they're getting 3 extremist judges through -- and possibly the other 2 at a later date -- you would have to consider that a win for them.

If you would like to explain to us all how their win doesn't translate into a loss for us, I am all ears....or is that eyes?

They just rammed 3 judges through -- or in the process of it -- and we have the same filibuster we have always had. I don't see that as a win. And since it is a win for them, and all we got was a preservation of the status quo (filibuster lives), it is, ipso facto, a loss for us.

[Guaranteed]

43. Because their plan was to pack the courts.

Remember?

Besides, Graham's been saying one of those judges probably won't even get confirmed. That's only two judges that they got.

You're gonna bitch about two judges, in the whole federal system, when we forced them to back down on the nuke option (a net gain for us), protected the filibuster, severely angered and demoralized their base, and gutted Bill Frist?

Are you sure you don't just want to lose?

Again, our role at this point is to just lose as little as possible. If you'll remember we don't control any branch of government, really, at the moment. We have to get that back, and then we can start talking about winning TANGIBLE things again, which you seem to be hoping for somehow.

Yeah...what exactly were you HOPING to WIN??

[aion]

45. I am quite sure.

First of all, you are assuming quite a bit. You are assuming that the republicans were not bluffing and that they had the political support in their districts to pull off the nuke option. I find that assumption quite lacking in fact -- especially after Sessions' freudian slip.

Severely angered and demoralized? You're talking about a group of people who are extremists, and who will feel such emotions on a somewhat daily basis. They're emotionally unstable to begin with. You would call the status quo a victory and ignore the fact that all but 2 (or if you are correct, 3) of Bush's appointees are going through.

Don't p!ss down my back and tell me it's raining.

'Losing as little as possible' is not a victory, my friend. Spinmeisters are necessary to make that leap, and you seem quite good at it. I never spoke of anything TANGIBLE. I spoke of GAINS. We made no gain in this. The senate was 'allowed' to keep its rules. That benefits both sides, as both sides can find themselves in the minority in the future. What did I want? I wanted the democrats to force the republicans -- to draw a line in the sand, and say NO FARTHER. But we didn't get that AT ALL.

We got nothing more than what we were legally entitled to before it all started. They got 3 judges through the pickets, and 2 more remain in limbo.

[Disturbed]

42. Internut is correct.

Internut

Here's the political reality:

The Democratic senators in the group agreed that they would only support filibusters of "extreme" candidates. But, in order for the agreement to hold, the Republican senators in the group have to agree with the Democratic senators that the candidate is, in fact, "extreme". But - if these 7 Republicans agree that the candidate is "extreme", they would not vote for him/her, so the filibuster is not needed anyway. Conclusion: the Democrats hold no cards at all.

On the other hand, if the Republican senators in the group think the candidate is not "extreme", they either veto the filibuster or open up the "nuclear" option again. They hold ALL the cards.

[Guaranteed]

44. A lot of them didn't even want to do the nuke option in the first place,

though.

They've been on TV talking about how they saved democracy. Now they're just going to back down and let democracy go to hell?

They dealt because they didn't really want to do it. We gave them the three judges, one of which probably won't be confirmed, just to make sure that it didn't happen. Not that big of a deal.

Man, it's business as usual. We gave them two judges. That's basically what happened. In the meantime, we get to filibuster crazies again.

When a possible judge comes along that thinks, for example, women shouldn't be able to vote, that's an extraordinary circumstance.

I don't think they're going down that road again unless it's an extraordinary circumstance that we're filibustering them.

[CWebster]

46. A win for Democrats? How?

It made it like the ethical questions of the candidates were never a consideration of advise and consent. The Right was never exposed for it's arrogance of power and they got the appointments they wanted--since it was questionable the other two would even get the votes.

The Dems were scammed by their unethical centrists who agreed to a compromised position for the minority now (without threatening the Right's future ability to block)while giving the Right everything it demanded--without ever making a principled stand.

What exactly did they win?

[Stinky The Clown]

51. I voted "other" .... NO one won ...... but Frist lost

And for that, I am supremely happy.

But winners? Nope. We didn't win jack fucking shit. We're gith where we were before. The (nuclear) sword of Damacles continues its inexorable sawing, ready to put its point smack through the former soft spot in the top of our political heads.

We were fucked before.

We remain ever so fucked.

[yebrent]

52. I don't think we had the votes.

And we got a reprieve, which, IMO will give us a better shot at winning the filibuster war down the road. Especially the public relations and media aspect of the war. We gave up some ground to get better positioning for the final filibuster battle ahead.

Timing is an important factor that seems to be overlooked. I think the closer any nuclear event is to the 2006 election, the better for the Dems. If soldiers are still dying Iraq (God forbid, but likely) and the economy is a mess, then Republican's triggering the nuclear option in 2006 will be a disaster for them. Most American's don't care about right wing judges. They want progress in Iraq and the economy. The Dems can frame the nuclear option as the ultimate example of the Republican abuse of power and failure to understand the real concerns of citizens. We can sell ourselves off as the Party to clean up Washington. It worked for Ahhhhnold.

This may be why the Repukes are so eager to test the Moderate 7? The longer it takes them to trigger it, the greater the chance of them not getting the votes or of it backfiring on them with the public.

[ailsagirl]

53. If Boxer is pleased, I'm pleased. I trust that woman implicitly.

The subject of her email is America won last night

If you were wondering if we won or lost the debate on judicial filibusters, look no further than the following statement from James Dobson, founder of "Focus on the Family" and a key architect of the right-wing extremist movement:

"This Senate agreement represents a complete bailout and betrayal by a cabal of Republicans and a great victory for united Democrats. The rules that blocked conservative nominees remain in effect, and nothing of significance has changed."

For more evidence, check out the headline from today's Washington Times, a key mouthpiece of the right-wing:

"7 Republicans abandon GOP on filibuster"

I am so pleased that senators from both sides of the aisle have walked the Senate back from the brink and defeated this terrible abuse of power. You can read my full statement about last night's agreement on http://barbaraboxer.com.

Thanks for your continued support in this fight for America's future. I'll keep you posted on the many battles that lie ahead.

In Friendship,

Barbara Boxer

[sendero]

54. It's a stalemate..

.... and trying to classify it as a 'win' for anyone is futile.

The fact is, we'll know in 2-3 years who won, and not before.

[Griffy]

55. NEITHER .. its a pointless event... WHEN WE REALLY WIN!!

this wont matter, the real win is in braking the silence on the truth.. I was at the media forum COnyers held today! They are talking about marching into the Washington Post office and DEMANDING the editor hear them!

the basic point I felt was.. the right lies, the propagandists repeat it, and the corporate media wont dispute it! SO.. since we REFUSE to be silenced we must go on the offensive!

a quote was .. "we are playing touch (football) and they are playing tackle, its time we play tackle too! ...

so it might not happen tomorrow... but the message is getting to the top, and the idea that we need generals in this fight to bring the truth to light!

[In Truth We Trust]

56. both since they are playing us like a fiddle-fucking corporate fascists