Howard Dean: Bernie Sanders is a liberal Democrat

[dolstein]

Oh great. Even the DNC chair can't tell the difference between a self-avowed socialist and a liberal Democrat. Gee, I wonder how long it will take for the Republican message machine to incorporate that into the GOP talking points.

How hard would it have been for Howard to say this:

"I don't know whether Bernie's a socialist or not. I'll leave it to him to define his political beliefs. But if the voters of Vermont elect him to the United States Senate and he wants to caucus with the Democrats, that's fine by me. And if any Republican in the Senate is fed up with the heavy handed leadership of Bill Frist wants to come on board, that's fine by me too. We're a big tent party. We already have been.

But I can say this. Anyone who expects the Democrats in the Congress to start advocating nationalization of industry will be sorely disappointed. The Democratic Party under FDR saved capitalism, and considering what a poor job the current administration is doing when it comes to enforcing the rules that are designed to protect consumers and fair minded businessmen alike , the Democrats just might have to save capitalism again. And we will. Frankly, I think the handful of socialists out there in America would probably be better off voting Republican, since Republicans hate the free market almost as much as they do."

[jpgray]

1. Yes, since all industry in socialist Scandinavia is nationalized

And in Germany and Spain, clearly there are no private corporations in existence, and their poor dying economies are the result, their streets glutted with dozens of orphaned, filthy urchins pathetically crying out for a return to glorious free market adventurism.

And that this solitary quote is supposed to mean Dean believes all liberal Democrats are socialists is quite a reach, dolstein. Can a socialist be a liberal Democrat? I think so. Do you? How does this quote mean all liberal Democrats are socialists? As far as I can tell, it doesn't.

[dolstein]

5. Newsflash: There's a difference between socialists and Democrats

Perhaps you believe that words have no meaning. I must disagree.

The Democratic Party has NEVER advocated socialism. Sorry, but that's a fact. So any socialiast who votes Democrat expecting Democrats in Congress to vote to nationalize industry is bound to be sorely disappointed.

Oh, and you really do need to get your facts straight. There are plenty of privately owned business in Germany and Spain.

[jpgray]

8. Sarcasm is a lost art, but I'll explain myself anyway

The countries I mentioned have incorporated many socialistic principles without wholly encapsulating industry and production within the state--socialism isn't a black and white absolute thing. Socialistic ideas are the foundation of the New Deal, for example, and many are perfectly in tune with even our current Democratic ideals. There's no reason a socialist can't also be a liberal Democrat, so your problem with the quote seems pretty contrived and ridiculous to me.

[Mass_Liberal]

2. erm

The point of distinction about Bernie on MTP was that Bernie was a self-avowed social democrat. And Democrats and Social Democrats agree on many things (universal healthcare comes to mind). So Dean was merely saying that he would be glad to have Bernie as a senator because the Democrats need every liberal senate vote they can get. I don't think that Dean was saying that Socialist=Democrat. Unfortunetly given the state of our nation, that would be tantamount to political suicide.

Dean and Sanders have supposedly had 'differences' with eachother. I'm guessing that the bone of contention is the balanced budget, which Dean is so adamant about. If I understand (and perhaps I don't) correctly, many socialists are willing to run a temporary deficit in order to implement important programs.

Personally, I think they are both great men who differ over an issue that politicans and economists have been warring over for some time. Bernie is a great guy, I've met him personally, and I hope he and the democrats can work together, the more Left wing senators the better!

Cheers.

[NoodleBoy]

6. the deficit thing is just Keynesian economics

it's mostly non-ideological-- it's the principle that if governments overspend their budgets on internal improvements during economic crises, more jobs will be created by making jobs available with money that the government doesn't have but has gone into debt to pay. The right has mostly rejected Keynes' ideas though, so now it's considered generally a leftist principle.

[Mass_Liberal]

7. Right

well said.

[salin]

3. Great - he should bash an ally.

Bernie should be a republican per your post. :eyes:

Let's see, someone who votes regularly with democrats, but is further left, but keeps getting elected should be bashed.

But curses on any duer who utter an uncomplimentary word about a certain senator who actually does, from time to time, slide over and vote with the corporatist gop.

[NoodleBoy]

4. there are many different strands of socialism

if you wanted to classify the Democratic economic position, it's a cross between Market Socialism and Fabian Socialism. Both are nonrevolutionary and seek to create change through democratic elections. If I remember right, both of them fall under the broader catagory of non-Marxist socialism.

[dolstein]

9. Oops, forgot how many socialists there are around here

Foolish me. I thought other people around here would also be upset by Dean's failure to distinguish liberal Democrats from socialists. I keep forgetting that that DU is an alternate cyberuniverse where, unlike America, embracing socialism is not only condoned, but even encouraged.

[jpgray]

10. America has embraced a lot of socialist ideas

As has about 80+% of the industrialized world. I don't see what's so hard about this--capitalism can co-exist with some socialist ideas. There's no "one drop" absolutism that forever makes a socialist anathema to any and all Democratic values.

[CTLawGuy]

11. the cold war ended 15 years ago

give it a rest

[dolstein]

12. If you think the Cold War is the reason America didn't embrace socialism

you have an awful lot to learn about this country.

[CTLawGuy]

15. the point is nobody cares

and nobody will interpret Dean's statement as equating liberal Democrats with socialists.

I had the same attitude toward Kerry's constant talk about Vietnam during the campaign.

[salvorhardin]

16. What's to distinguish?

They are not mutually exclusive. A Democrat is a member of a political party. A socialist is someone who broadly believes that individuals should control the means of production and not be subjected to the ownership, control or power structure of others. More specifically, Bernie Sanders is a social democrat -- someone who, again broadly, believes that the transition to a socialist society can be accomplished democratically.

You are confusing Bernie Sanders' political party membership with his beliefs on economic theory. Anyway, the point is moot since Bernie Sanders is a registered Independent, unless he wishes to switch his party affiliation to Democrat.

Oh, and on edit, being called a socialist is not something I would consider an insult though it would be incorrect since I consider myself, philosophically anyway, an anarcho-syndicalist.

[Eloriel]

13. It's a shame you didn't hear Dean directly

Because if you had -- and were being intellectually honest -- your discussion would be far different. Dean's meaning, which was clear from the actual disucssion, was an implied "like" in there -- Bernie Sanders is like a liberal Democrat."

Words DO mean something, and Dean went into a small but important (IMO) discussion re different forms of socialism, and what Sanders calls himself, etc.

AND, as long as I'm on the subject, about the fact that the two of them have had "issues" in the past but if they could iron out a few things (including that no real Dem wants to run was hinted at), the DNC might support Sanders in a Senatorial bid.

He also said that Bernie votes with the Dems 98% of the time. Hell, that's a far sight better than a good many of our "actual" Democrats and all by itself warrants Dean's metaphor which you seem to take exception to.

[creeksneakers2]

14. Howard handled it OK

Supporting Sanders is much better than having a gopper take the seat. I think Dean said something pretty close to youar first paragraph.

[JDPriestly]

17. Social democrats -- democratic socialists

I don't know much about Bernie Sanders, but I'd like to dispel a few myths about social democrats and democratic socialists based on my many years of living in European countries.

In many European countries, parties that call themselves "Social Democrats" or "Democratic Socialist" have moved to the center. They no longer support socializing industry. They now focus instead on protecting the rights of ordinary people including middle class people and tend to vote for safety nets like universal healthcare and labor rights and regulation to protect the safety of consumers and the environment. This trend can be seen in Germany, Austria, Britain and France, places where industry is doing pretty well, thank you, and embracing new technologies pretty quickly. (Yes, those countries show a higher rate of unemployment, but we don't know how high the rate in this country would be if it were counted more accurately. Personally, I think the US actually has far higher than the statistics suggest.) The centrist shift in Europe has become much stronger since the fall of the Berlin wall and the movement away from Communism in Eastern Europe. Similarly, the Democrats in this country, including Dean, have moved to the center, not leftward.

Many European countries have a very long tradition of government involvement in and licensing of business. The monarchs of various countries endorsed specific enterprises, so there is a tradition of government favoritism and involvement in businesses that we like to think does not exist here.

But, wait a minute, is that really true? Look at the United Airlines pension deal. Under ERISA, the U.S. government pension fund is essentially bailing United out of bankruptcy by paying off a small portion of its pension liability. Talk about government interference in business. Talk about socialism. And guess who was responsible for ERISA -- the Nixon administration. It is, to a great extent, a Republican plan. Maybe that is why United doesn't have to give the government anything, like some of its stock, in exchange for the bailout. Personally I think it is a big business give-away -- and that's about as "socialist" as you can get because whoever provides the capital, and the pension fund forgiveness is a big-time capitalization of United -- ultimately controls the business.

I remember talking to someone from Hungary many years ago who was bragging that her country had recently instituted a school lunch program. I had to laugh and told her that the U.S. has had a school lunch program as long as I remember. The U.S. program was started not just to help children, but to help farmers so that they would have a market for their surplus production. It was actually a form of socialism for farmers as much as for poor families. Republicans were the defenders of farm supports, i.e., socialism for the businessmen who own farms, for many years until international trade agreements made it impossible to continue the practice. Republicans established a voter base in rural America precisely because it was the party that favored subsidizing farmers and the agri-business.

So before anyone tries to brand Democrats as the socialists based on Dean's remarks, better look at the deals the Republicans make to support businesses -- insuring overseas investments, small business loans. The list of Republican-sponsored socialist programs is very long and growing. And the Republicans are defending and expanding that list as we post. Faith-based programs and the Medicare prescription plan to say nothing of the "privatization" of the provision of military services are good examples of Bush's shift toward socialism -- funding private programs with tax money or money funneled through government programs. What will the Bush administration get in return? Not a direct interest in the companies or share of their profits (if there are any), but votes for him and his party. Socialism? Depends on whether you are a Republican or a Democrat. In my view,it's certainly government influence and involvement in industry -- and closer to the industrial nationalization programs of post-war socialist Europe than to the aid for the poor programs that Democrats favor.