What Did Dean Say About the UK Memo on Meet the Press????

[Dr Fate]

He had a whole hour- surely he took 15 seconds of that and brought up the UK memo!!! BOY- I'll bet that threw off old Russert!!!

So what did he say about the most important issue of our lifetime: The fact that we are in a multi-billion dollar war based on lies & fraud???

[Mika]

1. Nada. n/t

www.stopbolton.org

[Dr Fate]

2. Oh- what a coward he is then.

Bye bye, Democratic party. Nice knowing you.

[johnaries]

32. Haven't you said that before?

Are you really leaving this time? :shrug:

[LittleClarkie]

55. I think we're supposed to beg him not to leave or something

Isn't that how dramatic exits usually go?

I say go ahead, myself. I don't think we need the negativity, myself.

How anyone could refer to Dean as a coward is beyond me.

[Dr Fate]

58. No I have not.

What are you talking about???

[Catchawave]

76. LOL...alot of DUers say their leaving every time

a dem leader screws up, in their opinion :shrug:

I thought Howard did great with Timmy, especially that I think I knew, he knew, what he was getting into....yes, he did just fine.

Now we all just have to frame this. And we'll be just fine.

Oh, btw, the memo was mentioned, but very subliminally....we need to see the transcript to be sure.

[Dr Fate]

78. Not subliminal, nuanced.

And read my post- I said "Bye bye Democrats" as in, I wont be seeing you guys win any big elections again.

I never said anything about not posting in the Lounge, or reading about what real like Progressives like Micheal Moore, John Conyers or various DUers are up too.

But hey- if you can deflect it all on me, do it, whatever gets ya through the night is what I say.

[NoPasaran]

33. Don't let the door hit you on the ass

[Dr Fate]

56. I know- you already said you disagree with "left wingers"

Let me know how it works out campaigning with swing voters.

[NoPasaran]

70. "Swing voters"---there's a term I hadn't heard in ages

Granola Central must be recycling its talking points.

[Dr Fate]

71. You must not have worked on the 2004 campaign then.

It was a term used by DNC employees and at local GOTV headquarters on a daily basis.

As far as granola goes, keeep it- I'll have a rare burger with double mayo.

[Carolab]

57. That's not true. He didn't mention it BY NAME. But he did allude to it.

WHY DON'T YOU PEOPLE BOTHER TO GO TO THE WEBSITE AND WATCH OR READ THE TRANSCRIPTS?

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3032608

If you wanted to send troops into Iraq--you know, I supported his father when his father sent troops to Iraq. I thought his father made a reasonable case. Kuwait is an ally of the United States. Saddam Hussein has invaded it. He's torturing people. We have an obligation as the last superpower to fix this. Instead the president said, "Saddam Hussein is a threat to the United States," and that was just flat-out false. And I don't think that's the way you run a government.

MR. RUSSERT: But John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, Joe Lieberman all said Saddam was a threat to the United States. That was the belief.

DR. DEAN: Because they were told that by the president of the United States, and there is a wide berth given to the president. And I think it's justifiable. In a time of threat to the United States, there is a wide berth given to the president. You trust the president of the United States to give you the information no matter what party they're in. And I think the president was not--did not treat the Senate and the House properly either.

MR. RUSSERT: Wasn't it the intelligence community that misled the president, as well?

DR. DEAN: Well, I believe, and I think many Americans believe, and I think this has been written about, that there was pressure put on the intelligence agencies, as John Bolton was clearly demonstrated to have put pressure on a variety of people in the State Department, to come up with the conclusions that the president wanted. That's what I believe, and I think there's some evidence to that.

[Dr Fate]

63. So he does not know the name of it??

Why didnt he mention it by name? Oh I get it- more nuance.

That way he wont rock any boats- but he can still point back to his vague statment when folks complain that no one is fighting Bush.

[babsbunny]

3. Sarcastic Post?

I didn't see it, but at least we have that hunky Galloway saying the things that will help us!

[Dr Fate]

4. Bye bye Democratic party!!!

Nice knowing you. It was fun pretending to oppose the war with all you guys!!!

[NoPasaran]

34. I hate these long goodbyes

[LittleClarkie]

50. DU DQ DE

Democratic Underground
Drama Queen
Dramatic Exit

And I say :hi:

And I also ask, what DID Dean need to say that we didn't already know. We were misled into this war. WE KNEW THAT ALREADY. I don't understand what exactly is either surprising about the memo. Yes, it is concrete evidence. But we knew this already. Dean spent most of the primaries saying all there was to say about the war and what business we had being there.

Seems somewhat redundant now. And with the Congress configured the way it is, what do we expect to happen? A sudden impeachment? I doubt it. The Bush administration suddenly pulls out, deciding they don't want to profitteers anymore? Nah. The people rising up against the war? Eh, if we were surrounded by wonks maybe.

You know what will stop this war? The draft. THEN, and only then, will the average shmoe wake up. It will touch lives then. People would get upset then. People would see we are trapped in a pattern of unending war then. But until something like the draft comes along, the numbers we'd need on the street are not going to materialize.

And that's not DEAN'S fault. Your average shmoe could give two shits about Dean. Half of them think he's nuts anyway.

He's doing what he needs to do, strengthening the party and working on the South. That's all I expect. That's all I need.

And somebody's going to have to pry my party membership card out of my cold, dead hands before I'd let go of it. They need me. They need us. As my sig says, I have their back.

[Dr Fate]

64. You are right- it is "Old News" just like the New York Times guy said.

Why go on on about the truth- it's redundant and "old news."

You heard it here first, folks, the Iraq war is "old news."

[Sparkman]

121. Dean is posturing now, using the media to untarnish the "screamer" image

the MSM put out during the 04 primary. Many numb skulls are finally waking up to the truth of the Bush dynasty, the Iraq war, & middle America's plight! What would scare the newly enlightened, those just now begining to fear a draft, a stagnant market or a sluggush economy faster than waving any warning signs like "HEY OVER HERE IF YOU NEED TO HEAR MORE NEGATIVITY". When Dean is trying to show the most reasoned and deliberative qualities of the Democratic Party.

[Dr Fate]

122. So you are GLAD that he did not talk about the memo then. Fair enough.

I dont want him screaming either- he could have just said it in a normal voice.

That would have scared truth seekers away who are just starting to ask questions?

Er- okay. That's a new excuse, but no worse than the others.

If he HAD brought up the memo, specifically, I suppose you would have been disappoitned then???

[jfw9999]

96. More could be said

I'll say that I think more can be said -- or at least the manner of saying it.

It should be quite clear now and can be said with absolutely NO caveats that George Bush lied to the American People and the Senate.

He cooked the intelligence books to achieve his aim -- that fuck head Tenant went along with it - and it should be put in similar terms.

Until that is done the Repubs will gradually throw more and more dirt on these facts until they are buried.

Now - I thought Dean was willing to go after them in a strong way - but is the old DLC getting to him a bit? Will we be eventually pandering to the middle again in 2 years?

Well............................. we shall see.

[LittleClarkie]

97. I didn't think Dean was going to do anything more

than what he's doing. First order of business: get the bastards out of power. THEN and only then will we be able to do what is needed.

[Dr Fate]

5. We need more FRENCHMEN saying what DEMs should say too.

And Armenians.

[KittyWampus]

6. Your Agenda Is Tiresome. Dean Did Well & Got The Message Out

good bye

[Dr Fate]

9. So what did he say about this old ,tiresome issue then???

I know that old, tiresome issue about the Iraq War is just "old news," but some folks still have family over there.

Is it facism when people IGNORE MAJOR news items? Wolf ignores it, Russerts ignores it, Rove ignores it, Dean ignores it. I see the pattern.

It was nice pretending to oppose the war with all you guys!!!! I guess my "tiresome agenda" of BEGGING Democrats to tell the truth failed 100%.

[LittleClarkie]

51. He's BEEN telling the truth since the last primaries

where were you?

And if this was all so important to you, what he said, then why do you act like you didn't even watch it? Did you? Did you watch it?

But if what Dean has already said wasn't enough for you, if the candidate that said so much on the subject people thought he was some sort of uberliberal when he wasn't, if that's not enough for you then I don't want your whiny ass in my party anyway.

Later dude.

[Dr Fate]

65. But mum on the memo.

So no, he did not tell the truth about the memo- he ignored it just like everyone else.

[jfw9999]

125. It seems to me we have little choice

With a couple of exceptions. I don't believe we have to suffer through this next election with the view Greens did in the last being: We will hold our nose and vote for Kerry no matter what!!!!

We did.... so fucking what. Kerry was a weak campaigner who went the DLC way and only showed abit of fire at the end of his campaign when all figured (perhaps correctly) that he was a complete Phoney.

Who do the Dems have aside from a far tooo young Obamma? Who? Who has shown the kind of class that either Wellstone or Galloway has? Waxman is cool aside from being an ultra zionist.... Boxer is too new to the politic.

Kennedy? Bird? Gore? KERRY? Jesus------------ it's pathetic. Old tired beaten up horses.

[Jim Sagle]

7. This thread ain't nuthin' but shit.

[Dr Fate]

10. So tell me what he said about the memo then.

???

[TankLV]

24. He said NOTHING - but the DU'rs are only acting

out of their true character - it's habitual.

They can't stand the truth.

I for one, WON'T be voting democratic any longer (since 1976) until they give me a REASON for voting FOR them, not just AGAINST someone else.

Don't let the schmucks get you down - you're on the right track here.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

8. He talked about the fixing of intelligence but

missed an obvious opportunity to mention the memo.

:shrug:

[Dr Fate]

11. More vaugue nuance from DEMS. Just what we need.

n/t

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

44. Vaugue{sic} nuance?

Pray tell. He missed an opportunity that he should have taken to tie the memo to the lies in the run-up to war...granted. I think the memo is singularly important for "prosecutorial" purposes but if you think that most Americans don't know that Chimp lied us into war (whether it's admitted, or not)...you're wrong. I see the memo as important evidence in the trial of Chimp, not in the revealing of the crime. That being said, I think the memo is still useful toward the goal of revelation.

One is also on shaky ground when Whoresert is controlling the debate. Do I think Dean missed an opportunity? Yes. Do I think it deserves another hundred posts ripping him for the lapse? Probably not.

[Dr Fate]

67. A few weeks ago, DUers were saying Dean was "not allowed" on these shows.

They were saying that the reason Dean, Kerry, etc wont talk about the memo is becuase they dont have access to these shows- that the media would censor him.

What a crock!!!! And yet all the DUers will still blame "The MSM" for not talking about it- hell- Dean him self cant talk about it!!!

He could have brought up the memo by name and talked about it specifically- it would have taken him 30 seconds at the most.

This time Russert was not holding a gun to him from under the table.

DEMs dont want to challenge Bush directly on Iraq- but they will make a few vague statements here & there so that they can point back to it when accused of not fighting or when asking for money.

[Mika]

12. I thought it was BushCrimeInc that "fixed" intel?

So Dean wants to fix it again? :sarcasm:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

14. Erm, no.

He talked about BushCo fixing intelligence in the lead-up to the Iraq war, Bolton specifically. As a Dean delegate, I too, would like this memo to be picked up as a talking point. Who knows why it isn't? :shrug:
However, he did call BushCo on their lies and hypocrisy.

B+

[Al-CIAda]

16. My critique & grade (posted elsewhere)

 I'm giving Dean a 'C+', sorry but thats how I'm calling it.
It appears 'they' have reigned him in sucessfully. Ho-hum, no one dare speak truth anymore. He's in a difficult spot though, as his spineless party is so cowed he can't say too much else he appear to be a 'wild eyed mavrick' who is percieved to be out of step.
Where is the outrage? Criminals are in the WH...my frustration turns to dispair.
My kingdom for a Galloway....

[Dr Fate]

18. There will be no "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" moments from Dean.

Or anyone else except party unknowns like Conyers, or TV comedians.

I'm now certain of it. This is the nail in the coffin for me- this very moment.

[NoPasaran]

35. Buh Bye!

[Dr Fate]

59. Hello Swing voters!!!

I hope they work hard for ya!!!

[NYCGirl]

38. So long, and have fun storming the castle!

[LittleClarkie]

54. Heh

My name is Howard Dean. You killed my country. Prepare to die.

[Dr Fate]

60. I'll let you pretend you are storming castles.

Have fun in the desert - I aint going.

[European Socialist]

27. well said

He needs to to better than he did today on MTP.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

45. Fair enough.

No doubt that they've placed a bit in his mouth.

[Al-CIAda]

13. I rise in support of Dr.Fate, and echo his frustrated remarks.

As someone else put it, 'wake me when we're starving and in the streets."

If not in action, in spirit anyway, for I WILL keep pounding for the TRUTH.

[OneBlueSky]

15. I'll second that . . . I'm still waiting for the Democrats to start . . .

acting like an opposition party . . . and to start calling BushCo on the catalog of their illegalities that grows by the day . . .

they seem to be more comfortable serving as enablers whenever the opportunity presents itself . . .

[Dr Fate]

17. Dean apparently holds the same position on the memo as Bush & Russert.

They all want it to be kept a secret.

[senseandsensibility]

21. Keep it up, Dr.

You are one hundred percent right, and ignoring the facts will do nothing to improve things for our party. It is amazing to me that some people would rather live in denial than hear anything negative about their favorite. I really don't get it. If they honestly think that Dean should not mention the memo on a nationally televised show, let them state their reason instead of calling you names.

[Debs]

29. I agree with Dr Fate also

I am not totally giving up on the democratic party (though I left it for the Greens years ago). It is time for some REAL and courageous opposition. Lately it has been like watching, in horrified facination as they weakly try to stand up without backbones against a GOP hurricane of lies, smears, and nonstop attacks. There have been some principled exceptions, Boxer, and Kucinich come to mind, but it really is hightime to scream about Bush being a liar, who led us to war with lies from the rooftops (I commend Dean for doing that) and demand an accounting. Bush should be arrested and frogmarched to the Hague to stand trial for warcrimes. If the Nuremeberg laws were applied he would be hung. The supreme warcrime according to Nuremberg is starting a war of aggression. I can see why tactically the Dems cant do that but demanding an accounting for lies and distortions is something they CAN do and its essential that the DO IT. If it never happens because of GOP control of the house, fine but the HAVE TO TRY

[TankLV]

25. Dr Fate says it spot on.

Keep it up Dr Fate!

[0007]

28. I'll second that proposal.......I liked Dean up until he blew our voice

on an important issue. Did Tim scare him?

Where's our George Galloway's? Counting their fucking money?

[rhett o rick]

19. Repeat after me: "WE NEED A NEW PARTY"

[kath]

23. WE NEED A NEW PARTY, WE NEED A NEW PARTY, WE NEED A NEW

PARTY, WE NEED A NEW PARTY...

[ClassWarrior]

31. When you have one, let me know. Meanwhile I'll continue to infiltrate...

...this one. And I'm not so infantile as to think that happens overnight, nor so immature that I'll threaten to hold my breath if it doesn't.

This is a game for grown-ups, folks - not tantrum-throwers.

NGU.

[LittleClarkie]

53. Hey man, I just got here

I ain't goin' nowhere.

I don't think anyone but Bush's most hardcore base really needed the memo to know that we don't belong in Iraq. Though I'm not a Deaniac, I suspect Dean said quite enough during the campaign not to be labeled a coward in this regard. That Dean hasn't talked about it doesn't bother me. If he wasn't doing what he said he was going to do, then I'd be bothered. But I think he's doing well so far.

[ClassWarrior]

91. Never Give Up, my friend...

:hi: Clarkie...

Thing about the memo is the fact that it's a powerful smoking gun. And I agree we need to pressure all Dems and the Corporate Whore Media to make an issue of it.

Unfortunately, some people can't take the heat, and bail when the going gets rough. Sad.

NGU.

[rhett o rick]

107. I hope you aren't referring to me re. giving up.

Starting a new party isn't giving up. I will stick with the Dem's as long as i think they are seriously working for the middle class. I am having serious doubts. Yes there are a handful (small handful) that are speaking up. Call me paranoid but I think the momentum to fascism is strong. If we lose the filibuster or compromise, i feel irreparable damage will be done. How many Demo's are speaking out. Five, six ? Where are the rest? Hiding? protecting their own jobs. Tell me this isn't a serious test for Democracy. To gain power back we need to unite moderates across party lines. By bickering back and forth we are playing right into Rove's hands. I AIN'T QUITING.

[ClassWarrior]

113. Great! So what's your plan for a new party?

How many members do you have? What's your party platform? What are your sources of funding? What's the name of the new party, and where can I get a lapel button?...

Huh?

I'm waiting...

NGU.

[rhett o rick]

127. I will make you a lapel button.

So what's your plan. To follow Reid off the edge of the Earth.

[NoPasaran]

36. Party on dude!

Don't forget to send us a post card now and then,

[rhett o rick]

20. He's doing one hell-of-a job fixing the Party

[Coexist]

22. I thought he did fine

Russert asked tough questions and he answered them intelligently and thoughtfully. He alluded to, rather than referred to, the memo. I would have preferred he do more than that - but I am not his puppet master.

My .02

[TeeYiYi]

26. He did say the war was based on lies . . .

. . . and TRgasbag said, "What lies?". Dean said WMDs. TRgasbag said, "YOU said there were WMDs". Dean said, "I believed that there might be some at the time because the White House said that there were WMDs". TRgasbag said, "Pelosi yada yada yada believed there were WMDs". Dean told him, "That's because Bush told them that there were WMDs and they were giving him a wide berth following 9/11. It was a lie and they believed him".

This is all paraphrasing but you get the jist.

TYY

[Patchuli]

39. It sounds promising to me

although I too was hoping he would mention the documented proof that lies were used by U.S. and U.K. to go to war.

He didn't get specific so there may be plans in the works regarding this proof that Dean knows of and doesn't want to endanger.

I was a lifelong Democrat. I turned Green Party in the early 90s but came back again, last year. This must be a concerted effort by us all. Maybe not everything is up to our elected leaders. Maybe things are just so fouled up this time (as in the days before the American Revolution began) that it will be up to WE THE PEOPLE to fix this mess. I came back and I'm not giving up on this party again so easily. I've seen the Democratic Party do GREAT THINGS and I want to see it again!

If you are discouraged, certain folks, try not to infect others with the apathy thing, okey-dokey? Thanks! And take heart in all the EXCELLENT resources we are building: MoveOn, Media Matters, BBV, Air America to name a few. Then add in that our leaders are asking for hearings regarding the rightwing media takeover and actions in pushing progaganda. Getting freedom of the press back will help a whole bunch.

I think positive things are happening and a positive attitude and efforts from all of us in whatever it is we have to do to get our America back will help us DO IT! We're American, we DON'T GIVE UP!

[emulatorloo]

30. He said Bush lied about WMDs and Iraq

Did he mention downing street memo by name? No.

There is more coming on that front.

[mod mom]

37. Dean's lack of comment on this matter was the final straw for me. 1st

fraudulent elections and now the dems won't stand up for evidence on this immoral war. I sent a letter of resignation to my democratic club memberships. Hope you will still welcome me here-My level of outrage is beyond the breaking point with the Dems. I wish Conyers, Boxer, a few others along with George Galloway could form a new sensible world party!

[ClassWarrior]

40. So you thank Conyers and Boxer by abandoning them??

Nice.

With friends like you...

NGU.

[mod mom]

41. I beg to differ, the Dems have abandoned Conyers and Boxer and me. Why

wasn't Conyers placed on the DNC committee investigating Ohio-he certainly could have contributed vastly to that investigation? Why wasn't Conyers selected to the Carter-Baker commission? I will continue to fight for all the same things I have before this decision, but I believe now is not the time for decorum but for screaming FASCISM and FRAUD! Now is not the time for silence on these important issues.

I will certainly donate to Conyers and Boxer but the Dem Party, DNC will not get another dime until they are willing to call a spade a spade.

[ClassWarrior]

43. So now you speak for Conyers and Boxer?? I haven't seen them leave...

...the Party. So don't use Conyers and Boxer to justify abandoning Conyers and Boxer and me and the rest of the Progressives who are mature enough to know that the fight to win back the Party will be long and hard, but we CAN'T give up because everything's at stake.

"Donate??" Are you an armchair Democrat?? <LOL> What do you know about fighting? I'm donating blood and sweat, sister. This is about the survival of our democracy - I don't have time for selfish little hissy fits when something doesn't go quite right.

NGU.

[mod mom]

46. Armchair Dem? I stepped away from my business in April of 04 to work full

time plus for Kerry/Edwards in Ohio. Since the election I closed my business of 17 years to investigate the election and work on election reform. I belong to 2 election reform organizations (which I will certainly continue) and am organizers of a local Dem group as well as served on the ex committee of a regional one.

No, I certainly don't claim to speak for Conyers and Boxer, but it certainly would be nice if their fellow Dems would stand behind them. They spoke the truth on Jan 6th. They put their careers on the line for speaking out against the Ohio Election -where were the other senators? Where has Howard Dean been on this subject? Did you see the list of committee people chosen by the DNC? If they wanted to get to the bottom of what really happened, John Conyers would have lead the chrge instead of being side lined by the DNC.

[ClassWarrior]

48. You're right, "it certainly would be nice if their fellow Dems would..."

"...stand behind them." But then, some of us are stronger than others.

Never Give Up.

[Dr Fate]

66. So I guess Dean was not banned from interview TV shows after all.

Or what ever the excuse was a few weeks ago.

[ClassWarrior]

89. What on God's green earth are you talking about?

:shrug:

NGU.

[Dr Fate]

108. Oh nothing. We have never had this conversation before.

And you have never read my threads with all those comments about how it's the media's fault that no one is talking about certain issues.

YES. It is The media's fault that DEMS wont talk about certain important issues- you guys were right all along.

[ClassWarrior]

114. So because we've conversed before, you get to make up what I said??

:crazy:

Says a lot about your credibility.

NGU.

[Dr Fate]

117. No. But you read those arguments and you know what I'm talking about.

Read my post again- I never accused you of saying anything.

But you know how silly those excuses are now, I hope.

My credibility? This is a chat room, so why is that even an issue?

You should be more worried about the DEMs on TV than the grinning, skeletal visage that is Dr Fate.

[ClassWarrior]

118. True, you're very slick about not accusing anyone of saying anything.

Pat yourself on the back.

NGU.

[Dr Fate]

120. You read those old threads and you know what I'm talking about.

Remember- several DUers were saying that Dean, Kerry, etc cant get on TV and that is why we should blame the media.

I was saying, "No- they can go on those shows and say what they want."

It seemed to be the suggestion that they could not go on these shows-well, they can- so now we have to make new excuses- mainly "Oh that memo- that's old news- I'm GLAD Dean ignored it! Dr Fate is CRAZY!!!"

The problem is not access, but fear to be specific about the biggest issues.

[europegirl4jfk]

42. What's about Clark?

I just read that Wesley Clark talked about the memo on Blitzer's Late Edition. Any video or transcript out there?

[europegirl4jfk]

52. From the CNN transcript - not what I expected

I've seen the CNN transcript now and it's not exactly what I expected:


BLITZER: There's a huge story in England especially, a British memo was published in the Sunday times, Richard, suggesting that before the war, the head of British intelligence came to Washington, went back, wrote a memo suggesting that the intelligence wasn't there for Iraq's WMD, for getting rid of Saddam Hussein. There were other much greater threats elsewhere in the region, around the world.

But he told the British government, the Bush administration was going to come up with the evidence, cut the intelligence, if you will. It seemed clear -- I'll read the memo -- "that Bush had made up his mind to take military action even if the timing was not yet decided, that the case was thin, Saddam was not threatening his neighbors, and his WMD capability was less than that of Libya, North Korea or Iran."

Do you accept this notion that the intelligence was manipulated to fit the policy whims of the Bush administration?

PERLE: No, I certainly do not. And it's worth remembering that the intelligence that was presented with respect to what Saddam was believed to have in the way of weapons of mass destruction was the same intelligence that had been presented to the previous administration. There was nothing new about it. It was not produced under pressure. It was woefully inadequate but it was an honest attempt by the intelligence community to say what it thought it knew.

BLITZER: Do you believe it was an honest attempt for the intelligence community to come up with an assessment, or there was political manipulation, General Clark, of the intelligence community?

CLARK: Well, the British memo doesn't say there was any manipulation. I think what Richard said is exactly right. It's the same intelligence that I had when I was running the campaign from Turkey against northern Iraq.

But, Wolf, the point is this. This administration made up its mind it wanted to go to war in Iraq. And it was going to use the intelligence to do so. And that's precisely what the British memo confirms. Most people in Washington knew it. Most of the Senate knew it. I talked to a number of senators who knew it. And they were unable to change the policy.

More here: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0505/22/le.01.html

[Clark2008]

86. What did you expect?

The memo explained the same intelliegence - that Saddam probably did have WMDs - that Clark had when he was commanding the Northern Fly Zone. And then Clark pointed out that, no matter what the memo said, they had made up their minds not to let diplomacy work. We were going to war.

Later, in the interview, Clark said this: We should have dealt with North Korea first, Iran second, and Iraq third, because that was the order of the significance of the proliferation threat. The administration went after it backwards, unfortunately."

He clearly made the case that, while nearly all foreign policy and military leaders had information that Saddam probably had WMDs, they simply weren't the threat that Korea or Iran is.

[europegirl4jfk]

95. I watched the video

And of course Clark is right when he says that the administration made up its mind it wanted to go to war in Iraq, and that they should have dealt with North Korea first, Iran second, and Iraq third. I was just a bit surprised that he agreed with Perle about the intelligence they had and didn't go into the "intelligence fixed around the policy" statement in the memo.

[Clark2008]

99. Well, he should agree on the intelligence they had because he's

said before - and testified to it, as well - that the intelligence they had said Saddam had WMDs or the potential for them.
Perle would have called him a liar had he shifted his position now.
It's true, though, that is the intelligence military commanders had been given up until Clark retired in 2000. And up until he testified to Congress in 2002, based on what he was told by friends still in uniform. However, he still testifed that now (2002) was not the time to go to war in Iraq - that Hussein was contained.
I can't speak as to why he didn't go into the "intelligence fixed around the policy" issues, but he's said more to this issue than any of the other Dems out there. I'll take what I can get. :)

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

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[snowbear]

49. Awesome Larkspur!

I didn't get a chance to see it.. But I was wondering why reading all of these complaints, if he even had the chance to bring it up?

Those interviews --- especially with Russert --- are timed to a "T", and are scripted so you answer what you're asked and move on.

:kick:

[Dr Fate]

62. Thats right- let Russert define the game & rules. It's worked great so far

Why throw him off script and bring up a specific issue that he refuses to ever cover- that would be too radical and impolite.

[Dr Fate]

61. It would have taken him 15 seconds to bring it up.

You think he should ignore the memo- fair enough. I dont. I think this war based on lies is the biggest issue of our lifetime.

[Larkspur]

101. And Dean did mention that Bush use lies to get usinto war

So Dr. Fate, move on and I don't care if the door hits you on the posterior or not on your way out.

[Dr Fate]

111. Dean used the actual word "lies?"

And who said anything about me leaving?

I said "Bye bye Democratic party, it was fun pretending to oppose the war with you."

I said nothing about leaving DU or progressive ideals & action.

[bread_and_roses]

68. Children are dying for the silence and the lies

To quote "mod mom," " Now is not the time for silence." How can anyone complain that "the" memo is not in the mainstream news and then defend one of the highest profile Democrats around for not bringing it up? People are dying, children are dying as we speak for the lies of the war criminals now in office. And Dean is silent? EVERY person of conscience has an obligation to bring up the death and horror caused by this lying pack of murderous Imperialists EVERY chance we have.

Silence is appeasement and collaboration.

[Dr Fate]

69. Russert was holding a gun to him from under the table.

And it's also somehow my fault- and probably yours too.

[Patchuli]

72. Now that I've watched it

I have to say without a doubt: DEAN ROCKED! He hit many, many issues
and I think some of you guys need to be a little patient. He blasted Tom DeLay and everytime Russert tried to get him off poor ol' Bugman, Dean came right back and reiterated that DeLay has been admonished over and over again and may very well, do jail time from the riff he has down in Texas over campaign finance rule-breaking. Dean hit on almost every other important thing and I just think if we expect to get the sheeple who drank the Kool-Aid to listen, we can't fire all barrels at their errors at once.

Dean is trying not to look like a wildman. That is ESSENTIAL to his credibility. If you have a problem with the Democrats, that's your business but it's our only chance at this point.

Less drama, more patience and imagination may help. We can outsmart the Republicans; I mean, look at them these days!!

[Dr Fate]

74. No one will be talking about "DeLay" when Bush starts his next war.

Or his golf trips, Social Security, or Micheal Bolton.

They will be talking about war and how patriotic they are.

Enjoy the small victories concerning "safe" issues while they last.

I'm out of patience- and I dont trust Democratic strategists anymore.

[Patchuli]

88. Well then don't "trust it"

but don't be a negative force to those who want change.

[Dr Fate]

90. What has changed? Bush still gets away with lying, scot free.

Go ahead, blame me- I dont mind.

[Patchuli]

93. Just how fast do you think it's going to be

when the Rightwingers have been planning this mess for 30 years or so?!

These people will go down because the pendulum always swings back the other way. It won't be as quick as we want but it will happen. I predict the Republicans will wallow in their shame for many years to come. This is the closest they have come to totally destroying their party. The real Republicans are beginning to rise up against the neocons.

Meanwhile, the only chance liberals and progressives have is in the Democratic party. Instead of pissing and moaning, let's fix what's wrong.

I'm not "blaming" you...but your negativity sucks, to be honest. Maybe your angst could be put to more constructive use than to tell everyone that it's all over and the sky is falling?

[sendero]

73. I thought Dean did ..

... a very good job, I'd give him a "B".

He got confused once (well twice really) and said "Osama" when he clearly meant "Saddam", but other than that he was on message and made some good points over and over.

While I share your wish about Dems talking tougher, I don't share your opinion of the Downing Street Memo which is essentially hearsay and will not get the result that so many of you seem to think it will, no matter who talks about it.

The fact is, it is COMMON KNOWLEDGE that this war was planned WELL BEFORE 9/11 and that is why there is no shock and outrage.

Be mad at the Dems for going along with the whole thing, but give this stupid memo a rest already.

[Dr Fate]

75. Pretend the memo involves Clinton.

And then imagine a Republican saying what you just did.

Pretty hard to imagine, eh?

Now you know why they beat us.

[sendero]

79. Dr Fate..

... I'm generally right behind you here, if you been paying attention.

But not this time. I watched most of Dean's interview and I was satisfied with his performance. He said a lot of things that nobody else will say.

You obsession with this memo is absurd. The reason it has not and will not get any traction is that all the Washington insiders already knew this, they knew it a long time ago, it is NOT NEWS.

The fact that the admin can and will spin the meaning of "fix the intelligence" and the fact that it is hearsay doesn't help. The memo is good for clueing in the clueless about how we got to this war, but it is not proof of anything and trying to make is so is futile, and that is one reason nobody is doing it.

It would not be that hard to PROVE that Iraq was in the planning stages before 9/11 - do you really think that would have some huge effect on public opinion? I don't. I think people already know this and that is why support for the war is down, but it will never drop below a certain level because there are too many Americans who think we are entitled to throw a deadly temper tantrum over 9/11.

Be mad at them for chris sakes.

[Dr Fate]

81. Let the Republicans split all those hairs over what "fixed" means.

It all sounds like desperate excuses to me- and the American people know they were lied too- so having this in the news would hurt Bush and all Republicans.

"Fixed" is like "what is, is" if you throw it back in their faces like they would do to us.

Dean should have mentioned the memo- it would have taken 15 seconds to bring up, but all week for Republicans to explain away.

The Iraq war is not old news, BTW, it is a current event.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Clark2008]

77. Maybe this will make you feel better: Clark talked about it today.

And, he's a Dem:

Well, the British memo doesn't say there was any manipulation. I think what Richard said is exactly right. It's the same intelligence that I had when I was running the campaign from Turkey against northern Iraq.

But, Wolf, the point is this. This administration made up its mind it wanted to go to war in Iraq. And it was going to use the intelligence to do so. And that's precisely what the British memo confirms. Most people in Washington knew it. Most of the Senate knew it. I talked to a number of senators who knew it. And they were unable to change the policy.

http://lara.forclark.com/story/2005/5/22/174835/432

See... there ARE Dems talking about it. Why not a thread praising that?

[Dr Fate]

80. He is the 1st high profile DEM to do so.

And I did not know about it until I read this thread.

Feel free to start a thread about whatever you like, BTW!!!

Clark always seems ahead of the curve in that way. He has the right idea- you have to TALK ABOUT it or it will go away.

Thanks for the info.

[Clark2008]

84. I understand what you're saying - we have to keep it in the news

But, I think the way you phrased it above is coming across as flamebait - and I'm not trying to flame you (just offering some gentle advice. :hi: .)

I know you want more Dems to make an issue of this memo on high-profile shows - and they should! I just think this thread sounds a little, well, dramatic. ;)

And - there is a thread or two about Clark's appearance on "Late Edition," which is where this quote came from.

[Dr Fate]

85. Flame bait is the only way to get your word out to the most readers.

Yeah-you nailed me- drama works apparently!!- see that little fire???

That is kind of my point about DEMS and how so many of them fail to play the media.

Try a "measured," nuanced, vague thread and you might get 15 posts if you are lucky.

[demo dutch]

82. He talked about the lies and mentioned that it has been written about

that was it!!

[Dr Fate]

83. He used the actual word "lies?"

Or did he say somthing more nuanced than that?

[Adelante]

92. It's just what he's been saying always, Dr Fate

He wrote about it in his book Winning Modern Wars -- that the Bush administration within one or two days after 9/11 were planning to invade Iraq whether the intelligence was there or not connecting Saddam with 9/11 or WMD to justify it. And planning meetings took place at Camp David to extend the wars to, I think, seven countries: Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, North Korea, and two others I can't remember.

Clark talked about it on TV several times, and in newspapers, and was called a lunatic for it, remember?

None of it was news to him, and none of it was news to the Senate, so I don't think the memo has the same effect as it did in London or here at DU.

Unless I'm missing something.

Today he said they "pushed" the intelligence.

BLITZER: Do you believe it was an honest attempt for the intelligence community to come up with an assessment, or there was political manipulation, General Clark, of the intelligence community?

CLARK: Well, the British memo doesn't say there was any manipulation. I think what Richard said is exactly right. It's the same intelligence that I had when I was running the campaign from Turkey against northern Iraq.

But, Wolf, the point is this. This administration made up its mind it wanted to go to war in Iraq. And it was going to use the intelligence to do so. And that's precisely what the British memo confirms. Most people in Washington knew it. Most of the Senate knew it. I talked to a number of senators who knew it. And they were unable to change the policy.


-snip-

PERLE: Well, the rush was, once we started the process of permitting ourselves to take action, if Saddam did not satisfy us on the intelligence issues, it's not so easy. You can't turn it on and off.

And he didn't satisfy us. Even the U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix said he was not cooperating to the degree that we expected and desired.

BLITZER: Let me let General Clark respond. Go ahead, General Clark.

CLARK: Well, with all due respect, Wolf, I think that's a selective reinterpretation of what actually happened.

The administration determined after 9/11 that going to war against the Taliban wasn't sufficient; that they wanted to go after Iraq. They used the evidence to justify going after Iraq. They were concerned that if they went to the U.N., somehow it might be deferred and postponed. So they went to the U.N. anyway at the urging of the Brits and Colin Powell, and they managed to just stay on the original time line, which had always called for an attack sometime in the spring of 2003. That's what they did.

They pushed it; they pushed the intelligence; they didn't do the preparation that was needed.

[Adelante]

100. Here's a video

http://www.dembloggers.com/story/2005/5/22/134814/506

[Larkspur]

103. Nuance. Isn't that a Kerry and DLC clone trait?

[Dr Fate]

109. Seems the "trait" is catching.

Lotsa "nuance" going around these days, not enough specifics

[demo dutch]

105. Yes, Dean said Bush used lies to go to war and that it was written

about.

[Dr Fate]

110. And he uses the actual word "lies?"- come on now!!!

I know better than that- Dean is not a Republican talking about a Democrat!!!!

[demo dutch]

123. Sorry I heard him say lied on the air

[Dr Fate]

87. Good night all. Time for some Al Swerringen.

I wish that dude was a freaking DEM.

Someday my prince will come...

:)

[zulchzulu]

94. He swerved in many directions to Timmy's Little Ploys

I thought Howard did alright...considering...

...when you go on Meet The Russert and you're a Democrat (or other than a Repug), you will get quotes taken out of context used for quickie cheap shots on issues...

...and you have 6 seconds to wipe the bullshit off the screen....bzzzzttt!!! Too late! F-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f......

Fat Timmy got you again!!!

[Chicago Democrat]

98. Zippo ......Write him a letter....

Heres mine

Maybe the interview would have been better if Howard did fricking more of them! Howard Dean, your only job is to be on TV. You will be on TV all week this week repairing this disaster. USE THIS TIME! I have been DESPERATE to hear from my hero. Leave him alone you DNC playing to the center types! Be yourself Howard. I cannot believe they made you backpeddle on Delay. God Bless Barney Frank, but screw him! Go for gold. Be pround you are not religious; talk about the facts. WHAT ABOUT IRAQ!?????THE DOWNING STREET MEMO! GALLOWAY. Etc.

[NightOwwl]

104. What he said:

"Well, I believe, and I think many Americans believe, and I think this has been written about, that there was pressure put on the intelligence agencies, as John Bolton was clearly demonstrated to have put pressure on a variety of people in the State Department, to come up with the conclusions that the president wanted. That's what I believe, and I think there's some evidence to that."

:wtf:

What he should have said:
"The case for the war was a pack of lies. 100,000 people paid with their lives; 1600 of them American soldiers sent to their deaths on a pack of lies; 15,000 of them wounded, many of them disabled forever on a pack of lies."

Compare the two statements side-by-side and tell me again that Dean's statement was effective. Simply stated, he blew it. Republicans are two days away from getting ABSOLUTE CONTROL of our government, and I am outraged that our Dem "leadership" still believes that pussy-footing around the facts is a wise strategy. It is NOW or NEVER! For God's sake, are they going to fuck this up for all of us again?

[Dr Fate]

112. Thats not nuanced enough- WAYYY too specific.

You have to be "nuanced"- that way you wont ruffle any feathers, but you can still say "I'm fighting Bush" when people percieve you are not.

You must actually want Dean to be on the front pages with this or somthing!!!!

You are obviously a DEM basher.

[demo dutch]

124. He used the word lied once

[Carolab]

126. Yes, indeed Dean DID use the word "lied"

http://www.dailygate.com/articles/2003/10/17/news/news7.txt

Dean then turned his attack directly against President George Bush and his cabinet.

"The middle class never got a tax cut," Dean said. "You may have received a $600 or even a $1,000 check, but think about what you paid in increased property taxes, in increased education costs and increased tuition for public universities. We need to get rid of the tax cuts and start all over again."

He went on to say that Bush lied about the reasoning for going into the second Iraq War because Bush lied about weapons of mass destruction.

"The American people will see through his lies," Dean said.

[Q]

106. Welcome to the 'shit stirrers' club of the Democratic party...

...and always remember that the 'leadership' agrees with the Bush Doctrine more than they're willing to admit on the campaign trail. Yet one more reason why the DLC should be considered a danger to the party. They have been in the forefront in pushing this war on the Democratic party and smearing anyone against it.

The 'memo' is just one more item that proves the attack against Iraq was illegal/aggressive and the war on terrorism is a fraud. (Watch: The Power of Nightmares)

[Zen Democrat]

115. You aren't very informed. Dean was fantastic!

He gave it to DeLay and Limbaugh. He was limited by Russert's attacks on him -- and he laid Russert low. Throwing "morality" right back in his face.

If you don't think Dean's doing his job, you didn't hear MTP. He rocked, IMO.

[Dr Fate]

119. DeLay and Limbaugh will be issues when Bush starts a new fake war???

I doubt anyone will be talking about DeLay, Limbaugh, Bolton or even Social Security when we are in another fake war.

But sure, nothing wrong with savoring the small victories concerning the safe issues.

[wiggs]

116. I'm going to be optimistic and assume.....

...that he couldn't pull out the big guns because of the Tuesday fillibuster vote. He couldn't be so polarizing that the moderate pugs would react unfavorably. I think this is reasonable.

However, if that's NOT the case, I am disappointed. I thought he was articulate, careful, presentable, reasonable and that he played his cards in typical clever fashion. BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT WE'RE GOING TO NEED! The tactic of playing the same politics game but only better is not going to work. We have to step outside the box, lay it on the line, be honest, be brutally frank, step on toes, scream, etc. Galloway tactics.

The political landscape is stacked against us. Playing on that field will get us another loss. Dean played on that field on Sunday. That's OK as long as we find another field soon.