Why are people so hesitant to compare BushCo to the Nazis?

[Cyrano]

They have used every propaganda technique developed by Josef Goebbels.

They have invaded a country that did nothing to us.

They have spit on the Geneva Conventions.

They have spit on Kyoto treaties.

They have spit on our Constitution.

They have spit on international norms of humanity and justice, as well as world opinion.

They have (almost)totally destroyed freedom of the press.

They have imprisoned American citizens without benefit of a lawyer or a trial.

The president has declared a right to order the assassination (murder) of foreign heads of state when he sees fit.

The president has declared it his right to attack any country, at any time, which he believes is a threat to us.

This list could go on, but you get the idea. So what's the difference between BushCo and Hitler? Oh, yeah. We don't have any concentration camps yet, where people are murdered. Ummm, wait a minute. I forgot about Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, and all the other places whose names we don't yet know.

Wake up. The only difference between us and Nazi Germany is in the number of people murdered and the fact that we still have many of our freedoms left (for the time being). Enjoy them while you can.

[hobbit709]

1. I'm not hesitant

at all. Neither is my 74 year old mother, who lived under Hitler from 1938-45 in Austria.

[atreides1]

2. They're in Fantasy Land

That's why!!!!!!

[Inland]

3. Enough similarity to make ME puke, even if somebody wants to argue

about equivalence. Bush doesn't have to be just as evil as Hitler to be too evil to tolerate.

[Avalux]

4. Denial

Who really wants to believe that our great country has actually sunk to these levels? We are a proud nation, and sometimes it's much easier to look away and avoid what's happening right under our noses.

[BlueEyedSon]

5. Don't forget the abuse of religious doctrine/power for political ends.

[SouthernDem2004]

6. Because...

They are not Nazis. To compare them is an insult to those that fought and died at the hands of Nazis.

Bush may be a moron and the Republicans have serious issues but they are not in any way Nazis.

The Nazis murdered millions. The Nazis attempted to commit genocide.

Facist, maybe.. Nazis, not even close.

[Cyrano]

9. SouthernDem2004:

Okay, I'll tell you what. Let's wait until they run up a tally into the millions before we call them Nazis. The time to stop Hitler was at the beginning. Are you willing to wait while BushCo runs up the body count?

That aside, a Nazi is not measured in numbers only. One is known by his/her philosophy and BushCo has sufficiently demonstrated where they stand on this issue.

[SouthernDem2004]

17. Hmmm...

No forced round-ups of certain races. No forced registration of certain races. No demanding certain races leave the country. No denying certain races citizenship. No denying jobs to certain races. No denying certain races the right to vote. No wholesale slaughter of certain races. No attempt to invade out neighbors. I could go on...

The Nazis were Nazis. The Republicans are not Nazis.

[Selteri]

You must not have been paying attention.

I can attest that we are forcing and rounding up Arabic people, detaining them for months before letting them go, just because of who they are.

We have indirectly attack Islam and many republican talking heads are.

Also terming someone a terrorist to be able to arrest and disappear them is also another job our government is doing by pretty much anyone who they deem a significant threat of late.

Call the Neo-Nazi's the NEO NAZI's that they are.

[SouthernDem2004]

28. No one has been arrested solely on race...

No entire race is being arrested. Yes, people get arrested because of who they are. Ted Bundy got arrest because who he was.

The US governement and leadership is not directly attacking Islam.

Who has disappeared?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

32. Also because you automatically lose whatever debate you were having...

...due to Godwin's law of Nazi analogies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

[RaleighNCDUer]

35. It can also be argued that Bushco are not republicans.

In 1934 Germany there were no forced round-ups. These were no forced registrations. There were calls for Jews to leave Germany, just as there are increasingly intensive demands for Hispanics to leave the US, and those that are making the demands aren't looking at green cards first -- every Hispanic they see is assumed to be illegal. Are you unaware of the disenfranchisement of tens of thousands of minority voters in the last election? The "wholesale slaughter" in Germany didn't begin until 1941, after the Nazis had been in power for a full decade. And they didn't begin invading their neighbors until 1938, with the anschluss of Austria -- but before that they involved themselves in the Spanish Civil War to test their weapons and tactics.

You can't compare the present regime with post-1936 Germany. If the Germans of 1930 had any idea what 1939 would look like, they'd have never let Hitler come to power. But from 30-36 they looked a lot less dangerous - and a lot more like the neo-con theocraticans of today.

The idea is to stop then now, while we still can.

[Cyrano]

40. NCevilDUer: "The idea is to stop them now, while we still can."

Amen to that. How we go about doing that is problematic, but the thought is right on.

I firmly believe that if they remain in power, no one in this country will have the freedom to express the thoughts we're expressing today.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

16. You're not going to make the point, unfortunately.

I'm awaiting the screams of Iraq=genocide. Nazis and genocide - two terms that have been totally neutered by overuse.

[goodboy]

7. Because you don't have to be a Nazi to be a Fascist. See, it goes

without saying that the Bushies use a lot of the same techniques that Goebbels employed, but the cornerstone of Fascism is Corporatism. Nobody can deny the Bushies stance toward corporations, and this alone makes them fascists. If you'd like to take it a step further and draw some other comparisons, here are the 14 points of Fascism:

1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
4.) Supremacy of the Military
5.) Rampant Sexism
6.) Controlled Mass Media
7.) Obsession with National Security
8.) Religion and Government are Intertwined
9.) Corporate Power is Protected
10.) Labor Power is Suppressed
11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment
13.) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
14. Fraudulent Elections

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

[SouthernDem2004]

19. Also look at the Nazi platform:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/document/nca_vol4/1708-ps.htm

They were for national ownership of corporations.

[goodboy]

44. Wow...sounds like things the Bushies have said...wow. (nt)

[hughee99]

60. How is this list any different from Soviet-era Russia?

And the Soviets were definitely not Nazis.

It's just curious that I haven't heard any */Stalin comparisons. Just a thought.

[hughee99]

63. For that matter, how is this all that different from the US in WW2?

FDR was NOT a fascist.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

8. Because as soon as you do it...

...anyone in the room with an ounce of sense would stop listening.

[BlueEyedSon]

11. You must be joking.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

13. Joking? No.

While I do think the Bush administration has a lot of authoritarian tendencies, they're absolutely nothing like the nazis. Is America really so spoiled that it believes that this current sucky state of affairs is ANYWHERE NEAR AS BAD as Germany in the 30s? Please. The fact that people can come in here and accuse Bush of being a Nazi proves that he isn't, because the OP is still alive.

[BlueEyedSon]

36. At the beginning of the Nazi movement, for most people, life was just

ducky.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

39. No it wasn't.

It most certainly wasn't. Things were not at all right in Germany at that time - in ways that are no way comparable to the fiscal and social problems we're having here today.

[beaconess]

42. Thank you.

[Cyrano]

12. Why do I get the feeling that those not willing to listen now,

will be standing next to me in a large "shower" room waiting for the water, while I'm waiting for the gas to be dropped in.

What then? Do I tell them, "I told you so?"

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

14. So you believe he's going to set up gas chambers.

That's really cute. Look, I hate the stupid dimwit as much as the next person here, but this is just ridiculous. As I said upthread, Americans must be pretty damn spoiled to believe that the current state of affairs is as bad as Nazi Germany.

[Cyrano]

21. Gas chambers are a metaphor for genocide.

And anyone who believes "It can't happen here," is a fool.

Most European Jews didn't "get it" until it was too late. Especially the German Jews. They believed that they were Germans first and Jews second.

Virtually an entire generation of my own family, (my grandmother's generation) died in the Holocaust. I can remember my grandmother telling me that most people refused to believe what was going on and that many getting on those trains heading east held onto the illusion that they were just being "relocated."

BushCo, as of the present time, has not come close to the degradations committed by the Nazis. But they are well along the same path. And why would anyone believe that they will not continue down this path? All of human history indicates otherwise.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

24. Ignoring evidence is one thing.

If you can show me one single shred of evidence that Bush plans to commit genocide in the US, show it now. Otherwise this is just a bunch of smoke and mirrors.

[Cyrano]

27. See ya in the showers.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

30. OK, you're on.

If we get to 2025 and you haven't been gassed, you owe me $100 + interest. If you have been gassed, I will donate $100 + interest to the charity of your choice.

If I get gassed and you don't, then you'll just have to be satisfied with being right.

[Frances]

10. Because it backfires

When someone makes that comparison, the Bush machine immediately attacks and the point that the person wanted to make is lost.

Look what happened to Dan Rather. I saw Dan interview the secretary who said that the document Dan had was not authentic. She also said that the contents of the document were accurate. Yet the average American now sees Dan Rather as a liar. Bush came out clean as a whistle.

The same thing is happening with the Koran incident. I find it hard to believe that anyone who saw the photos taken at Abu Gharib (sp?) would doubt that the military would hesitate to throw a book in a toilet. BUT Newsweek is now the bad guy and Bush is getting away with saying that the military would never do anything like this.

Personally, I feel in my bones that the country as a whole is getting very close to becoming like the state I grew up in during the era of segregation. We were a one-party state with a few rich people and many poor people. Our education system was a disgrace. Social mobility was very limited. Religion was definitely the opiate of the masses. The judicial system was a mockery.

[Grooner Five]

15. The very moment

...that the Bush Administration has their opposition killed or jailed, and sets up concentration camps in America designed to efficiently kill millions of people, I will feel comfortable calling them Nazis.

Otherwise, it grossly cheapens the memory of what the Nazis were and amounts to little more than intellectual laziness and over-the-top diatribe. Silly stuff.

Does anyone really believe that Michael Moore or DU would exist (and thrive) under true fascist leadership?

[Cyrano]

23. Give it a little more time.

If we can still have this open conversation two or three years from now, maybe I'll agree with you.

[Grooner Five]

25. I wouldn't be holding my breath...

...while waiting for the stormtroopers. Bush can't even get every elected Republican do do his bidding, so I reckon there's a long way to go before they'll turn their attention to us.

[Melodybe]

18. Study your history, if the shoe fits...

If our government was trying so hard to tell us all the same things that the Germans were told in the late 1930's and early 1940's then maybe I wouldn't call them that.

But since they have even gone as far as to spout that "god is on our side", I'm calling it like I see it.

Our government is run by a bunch of fascist NAZIS!!!!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

20. If that is the case...

...why are you still alive?

[Grooner Five]

22. I really don't see...

...how this sort of silly diatribe will convince anyone of anything. I'd wager it would have the opposite effect from the one desired, because folks don't like to align themselves with hyperbolic ranting.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

26. folks don't like to align themselves with hyperbolic ranting.

Now THAT'S something I can accuse bush of being - a hyperbolic ranter.

[Grooner Five]

29. lol

Agreed.

[RoyGBiv]

31. Because ...

It dillutes the meaning of Nazism, shrouding its true horror.

In its simplist terms, Nazism is a unique brand of fascism. Elements of fascism are what most people are identifying when they make the comparison to Nazism. If that distinction is not made, it actually plays into the hands of the propagandists.

For a more practical reason, the comparison has been so misused over the years that it no longer has any impact.

[Melodybe]

41. Whatever do the hundred thousand dead Iraqi's mean nothing to you?

How about the million + that died due to our sanctions, what about the 1600 dead US soldiers, or the 15,000 newly disabled soldiers? What about the fact that Prescott Bush made money off of Jewish slave labor?

Just because they haven't started carting us off yet, doesn't mean they won't, we must fight the power now so that it never happens.

They are still a bunch of fascists, no matter how you slice it.

Call your senators today: 202 224 2131 tell them godd luck with the filibuster, ask that they talk about the UK war memo and Galloway's testimony.

[RoyGBiv]

45. Why not call them Stalinists?

If an authoritarian regime that controls other countries and indescriminately kills people is the measure, then one label is just as good as another.

My point, which others have made in more details, is that Nazism is a specific thing. If you want to call Shrub and his cronies fascists, I'm with you because that has a substantial basis. But you and other use the terms fascist and Nazi interchangeably, and they are not the same thing.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

49. How about we call them "assholes"

I think we can all agree on that.

[RoyGBiv]

53. I'm with ya!!!

I like consensus, and on this we definitely have one. :-)

[G_j]

55. there are millions of assholes in the world

calling Bush one simply deflects from the seriousness of his crimes.
If you choose not to take those "Crimes Against The Peace" seriously, as clearly layed out in the Nuremberg Tribunals, that is your choice.

[carnie_sf]

33. There is also

a fundamental unwillingness on the part of Americans (myself included) to believe our government, and our society is capable of evil on a scale comparable to Nazi Germany, or fascist Italy and Japan.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

37. Which is good...

Beause to date our government and our society haven't been capable of evil on a scale comparable to Nazi Germany, facist Italy, or Japan. Not that we've particularly learned our lessons (Vietnam) very well.

[carnie_sf]

46. Really

what about the slaughter of the native americans, the illegal invasion of Texas, the illegal actions in Haiti and Mexico outlined by Gen. Butler in his book, the Philippines, the invasion of Vietnam, Grenada, the murder of thousands of El Salvadoreans etc etc?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

48. All of which, with the exception of the slaughter of American Indians...

...aren't examples of anything remotely resembling naziism. Or fascism. Murder does not equal naziism. Invasion does not equal Naziism. Do you know what a Nazi is? Do you understand their philosophy? You can't possibly understand Naziism and equate it with Grenada.

[erpowers]

34. Criticism

Anyone who compares Bush to the Nazis or Hitler will be greatly criticized. Do you remember what happened to Moveon.org. The commercials were not even Moveon's ads, but they were criticized for days. It does not matter how many facts you have you will be criticized.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

38. Stupid fucking Drudge.

Those commercials were awful and dumb. MoveOn was right to get rid of them. Drudge was an ASS about it, and got all the other crackpots riled up, even though anyone could post anything as an entry on the site. I seriously considered posting an "I love Matt Drudge" ad just to prove that (obviously) it wasn't monitored for apropriate content.

[Cyrano]

43. Yep. Just more proof that BushCo controls the message and the media.

[EC]

47. Well, maybe a new form of it,

if you look at the Patriot Act II, there are provisions in which any dissident could be termed a terrorist and taken away...that gives pause, makes me wonder why they want to shut us up...I don't like the build up of all the new businesses like CACI, and Blackwater, how many more secret mercenary troops are there (just this past week we learned of Rummy's secret military and spy organizations that our money is paying for)? And are they to be used against us when our own military refuses to harm American Citizens as a matter of conscience...I do worry if this administration gets a stronger hold on the government and continues to grow, what could be coming isn't going to be pleasant and could rival the Nazi's of past. Remember this has been building since the Nixon administration at least, possibly longer - Rummy, North, Wolfowitz all of them have been busy forming different groups to this end...look at North's churches for Prisoners, I wonder what that is really about...And the PNAC really believes in the New World Order....Then there is the Moonies working in concert, to what end? (remember this is the guy that says he's the new Messiah) I don't like where the new bankruptcy bill is putting many American's, in a continual loop of debt, possibly end up in a form of debtor's prison or army.(who knows) I don't like the Real ID, and the fact that it is open-ended, that Homeland Security can add on what is needed to obtain it and where it will be used, (will this lead to the old "Company Store" type of society where everything we have is charged to this card, and we work for the government to pay it off and trapped by never being able to pay it, because of new interest rates or penalties)



This site had some interesting connections: http://www.winterboy.com/dejavu17.html
and this site on churches and government (a watch list site)
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/groupwatch/wacl.php


Anyway, rather they are Nazi's or not, they are evil and setting up a New World Order that we will be in servitude to...

[GreenArrow]

51. new times ...

call for new approaches.

[Grooner Five]

50. Maybe some folks...

...feel they need to compare Republicans to Nazis in order to validate their fight and feel like they're waging some epic battle against evil for the triumph of logic, freedom and compassion.

Personally, I don't need to call them Nazis for that. It is what it is.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

52. And it's another example of the good vs. evil...

...us vs. them, with-us-or-against-us mentality that we're supposed to be combating. Guess how many voters you win over by calling Bush a Nazi? Zero. What happens if you don't win over any voters? You don't win any elections. What happens if you don't win any elections? Re-elect Jeb in '12!

I'm always astonished by how many people forget that the fundamental goal of politics is winning elections in order to enact your agenda. Witness another thread floating around today, demanding that Carl Levin be included in the top 10 conservative idiots list. This kind of rigorous adherence to ideology always ends in disaster (as it will soon end in disaster for the Republicans, bless their Christian fundamentalist wannabe souls.

[FreedomAngel82]

54. I'm not

I call them what they are. Nazi fascists assholes.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

56. Has it ever crossed your mind...

...that they call you exactly the same thing? And that they're just as wrong?

[onenote]

57. because "Nazis" didn't do all the things you list and bushco isn't doing

what the Nazis did. Have Bushco rounded up America's Jewish population and sent them to camps and gassed them? Have they even taken less drastic steps to terrorize the Jewish population?

No. So Bushco aren't "Nazis" because that's what the Nazis did.

Does that mean the things Bushco are doing aren't bad? Of course not, but Nazi is not the same as "bad" or "evil". Its a specific type of evil with a specific history. When you call Bushco "Nazis" you suggest they have the same philosophy and would take the same actions against the same groups as Hitler did. And the average person with half a brain knows that isn't so.

So call them idiots, fascists, evil, whatever. But it makes no sense to call them Nazis.

onenote

[Mass_Liberal]

58. Because

to do so would be ignoring the historical reality of what the Nazis did. It makes us sound ignorant and extreme. Enough w/ the whole 14 pts. of Fascism thing, please, the simple fact is that we are clearly not living in a Fascist society today, and you know it. To say so is to demean the suffering of people who actually live without freedom in other countries under dictators.

[Q]

59. I wish that those who start these threads would use 'fascist'...

...instead of 'Nazi'. The Bush Junta exactly fits the description of a fascism. Using the word Nazi always brings out resistance to discussing a very important subject.

We must keep in mind that the Bush Fascists don't have to use the tactics of the Nazis to get practically the same results. Technology and modern communications has made it possible for the Bushies to take control of this country without the use of overt violence. In other words...they're accomplishing everything they've ever wanted without having to use Hitler's tactics.

Although one could say that Bush DOES have his Brownshirts...that bully, intimidate or arrest anyone who dares protest at one of his rallies/speeches.

And let's not forget the Patriot Acts and the New National ID Card. They will be used to oppress and control the masses. They will most certainly be used against the 'enemies of the state'.

[Karenina]

61. Ya know what's funny?

From my 80-something neighbors to my 20-something drinking buddies I hear the same refrain: HOW can the Amis NOT SEE the jackboot? THEY have the benefit of OUR HISTORY and EASY ACCESS to information. Sie werden schlimmer als NAZIS wegen Geld and und Macht....

[Clarkie1]

62. Because they are not morally or historically equivalent.

I will, however, grant you this:


Long ago, there was a noble word, LIBERAL, which derived from the word FREE . Now a strange thing happened to that word. A man named Hitler made it a term of abuse, a matter of suspicion, because those who were not with him were against him, and liberals had no use for Hitler. And then another man named McCarthy cast the same opprobrium on the word. Indeed, there was a time--a short but dismaying time--when many Americans began to distrust the word which derived from FREE. One thing we must all do. We must cherish and honor the word FREE or it will cease to apply to us....
--Eleanor Roosevelt