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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-05 11:30 PM
Original message
Was Pope Benedict a "Hitler Youth"?
http://www.creators.com/opinion_show.cfm?columnsName=rsc

<clip>
I believe that my German uncle, the spitting image of my American father, was a decent man who >>>>>> like the new pope who once joined the Hitler Youth <<<<<< was swept along by events far beyond his control. He recalled that as a teenager, Hitler was a distant voice on the radio promising to return order and prosperity to a depressed country. Little did he know that the highway built near the town in the '30s, eagerly welcomed for creating local jobs, was intended to carry tanks to conquer Paris, or that the coming war would leave him near death on the Russian front.


That would explain why one of his first moves was to convince the liberal minded priest Father Thomas Reese that he wanted to resign from American Magazine which he edited.

One of the articles Reese probably wrote has Penraker lying up a storm...


original article exerpt:

http://www.americamagazine.org

"For those of us who grew up under the terror of the mushroom-shaped cloud, this was an extraordinary achievement. And he (referring to Pope John Paul II) brought it all about as a nonviolent revolution without shedding blood, proving foolish the conservative hawks who had counseled violent confrontation and first strikes that would have cost the lives of millions."


Per Penraker:

http://www.penraker.com/archives/001441.html

The left has to lie in order to make its case; no conservative ever "counseled violent confrontation and first strikes that would have cost the lives of millions". Catholic priests should not be spreading lies like this. Anyone responsible for this editorial should lose their job. I thought it was part of being a priest to tell the truth.

and also per Penraker

1. Father Thomas Reese of America, The National Catholic Weekly Magazine. http://www.americamagazine.org The Media loves to put Father Reese on display, because he agrees with them. Reese is a Jesuit, and nowadays you have to be careful of Jesuits. They used to be considered a tough and disciplined order; now it is widely reported that they have been taken over by a "lavender mafia". An unusual number of Jesuits are dying of AIDS, and many of the priests accused of teenager abuse were Jesuits. The order has fallen from about 8,000 priests several years ago to about 2500 now. It is said there are more ex-Jesuits than Jesuits. Garry Wills, a liberal, confirms the rot, as reported here. http://theviewfromthecore.com/20020408/column.html


Shall I forgive the Penraker in advance for I'm sure they know not what they speak of even without looking it up, but... let's find the facts.

That didn't take long. Doesn't anyone at Penraker know how to Google? 943,000 hits for communism first strike


http://www.georgetown.edu/centers/woodstock/publications/article18.htm

"Bush's 'first strike' threat: Can it be justified?", Our Sunday Visitor, June 23, 2002.
<clip>
Speaking to West Point graduates earlier this month, Bush began floating a doctrine of preemptive military action against nations viewed as terrorist threats, especially Iraq.

"If we wait for threats to full materialize, we will have waited too long," the president said. His defense secretary, Donald H. Rumsfeld, followed by saying the United States should not wait for "absolute proof" of an impending terrorist attack before acting militarily.
Since September 11, those in the mainstream of Catholic thinking on a "just war" have affirmed that the use of deadly force against terrorist havens in Afghanistan and elsewhere is a moral option. However, in Church doctrine a just war is a defensive war, and the tradition has offered little ground for justifying offensive military action.

On top of that, in recent years the Church has voiced growing doubt about whether war can solve deep-seated social and political conflicts, and therefore about the likelihood of a "just cause" of armed conflict. Pope John Paul II has seemed to put greater hope in the prospects of non-violent resistance to evil, and in healing wounds between fractious parties and addressing injustices through non-military means.

"The Church has been narrowing the just-cause categories," said Jesuit Father Drew Christiansen, an international ethicist who reflects the thinking of the U.S. bishops and Holy See, referring to one of the just-war conditions. "The Holy Father has been increasingly skeptical about the use of force being able to accomplish the aims" of restoring peace and order.

http://www.voiceoftheturtle.org/library/porthuron4.php

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Universal controlled disarmament must replace deterrence and arms control as the national defense goal.
The strategy of mutual threat can only temporarily prevent thermonuclear war, and it cannot but erode democratic institutions here while consolidating oppressive institutions in the Soviet Union. Yet American leadership, while giving rhetorical due to the ideal of disarmament, persists in accepting mixed deterrence as its policy formula: under Kennedy we have seen first-strike and second-strike weapons, counter-military and counter-population inventions, tactical atomic weapons and guerilla warriors, etc. The convenient rationalization that our weapons potpourri will confuse the enemy into fear of misbehaving is absurd and threatening. Our own intentions, once clearly retaliatory, are now ambiguous since the President has indicated we might in certain circumstances be the first to use nuclear weapons. We can expect that Russia will become more anxious herself, and perhaps even prepare to "preempt" us, and we (expecting the worst from the Russians) will nervously consider "preemption" ourselves. The symmetry of threat and counter-threat lead not to stability but to the edge of hell.

http://www.cfr.org/pub5035/max_boot/who_says_we_never_strike_first.php
Who Says We Never Strike First?
By Max Boot
The New York Times, October 04, 2002

Some critics, such as Michael Walzer, the political theorist, argue that the current threat from Iraq is different from and less immediate than those faced in the past. Attacking Iraq now, they argue, would make this a preventive, not a pre-emptive, war, and hence less morally justified.
Boot, whom I think it safe to say is easily identified as a Conservative Hawk, continues.... This is a distinction that may have made sense in the past, when mobilization took time and diplomacy proceeded at a slower pace. But today weapons of mass destruction can be used without warning. For this reason, the distinction between pre-emptive and preventive collapses. "Preventive" actions like Israel's 1981 raid on Iraq's Osirak nuclear facility have become essential.
Nevertheless, as Congress and the American people debate war against Iraq, there is unease that pre-emptive war, even to eradicate weapons of mass murder, runs against the American grain. The presumption of those, like Dick Armey, the House majority leader, who have made this argument is that Americans are a generally pacific people who will put down their ploughshares and take up swords only if attacked first. Leave aside the question of whether we can afford for the enemy to strike the first blow when that blow might leave millions dead. What about the historical accuracy of this idea that we are a nation animated by the spirit of Cincinnatus?
As support for this proposition one can cite the defensive justifications offered for major American wars, from the attack on Fort Sumter to the attack on Pearl Harbor. But some supposed provocations do not stand up to much scrutiny -- as critics at the time pointed out.
Mexico attacked United States troops in 1846 because they had moved into disputed border territory; President James Polk used this as a convenient casus belli, but he was preparing a war message for Congress even before the attack. A half century later there was no credible evidence (there still isn't) that the Spanish sank the Maine in Havana harbor; Congress declared war anyway to liberate Cuba and flex American muscle. And the United States entered Vietnam not to avenge two attacks on American warships in the Gulf of Tonkin (one of which didn't occur) but because President Lyndon B. Johnson wanted to prevent the spread of Communism.


Geese, the rot runs deep and way back..

But I think Penraker is only referring to Reagan's forked tongue which said, "No" to preparing for First Strike Capabilities all the while he was deploying a program that could only be effective in a first strike situation.

I mean if you only look at Reagan as having the "millions of lives" in the balance that Penraker referred to then technically they were right... he didn't actually come our and say it. But then they did say "no conservative ever..." so they are still wrong.

http://www.clw.org/scoville/nyt-100881.html
October 8, 1981
First Strike
By Herbert Scoville
Deploying the ''counter-ICBM'' MX in silos known to be vulnerable can only signal to the Russians that we plan to launch them in a first strike before their own attack could wipe them out. After their attack, we could not rely on having any missiles with which to retaliate. Thus, with this MX program we are giving the Soviet Union strong incentives to launch a pre-emptive strike in a time of crisis.
The entire MX program should be canceled now, and President Reagan should listen to his closest Senate advisers, Paul Laxalt of Nevada and Jake Garn of Utah, who urged in June early negotiation of a ''strategic nuclear offensive arms reduction agreement - particularly in those weapons which constitute first-strike counterforce systems.''
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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-05 11:40 PM
Original message
WebMalfunction
Edited on Tue May-17-05 11:46 PM by Tigress DEM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI

His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI (Latin: Benedictus XVI) was born Joseph Alois Ratzinger on April 16, 1927 in Bavaria, Germany. He is the reigning 265th pope, serving as the bishop of Rome, Patriarch of the West, head of the Roman Catholic Church and sovereign of Vatican City. He was elected on April 19, 2005, in the papal conclave over which he officiated in his capacity as Dean of the College of Cardinals. He was formally enthroned during the papal inauguration Mass on April 24, 2005.

<clip>
When Ratzinger turned 14 he joined the Hitler Youth, membership of which was ....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1572667,00.html

The Sunday Times - World

April 17, 2005

Papal hopeful is a former Hitler Youth
Justin Sparks, Munich, John Follain and Christopher Morgan, Rome


THE wartime past of a leading German contender to succeed John Paul II may return to haunt him as cardinals begin voting in the Sistine Chapel tomorrow to choose a new leader for 1 billion Catholics.
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, whose strong defence of Catholic orthodoxy has earned him a variety of sobriquets — including “the enforcer”, “the panzer cardinal” and “God’s rottweiler” — is expected to poll around 40 votes in the first ballot as conservatives rally behind him.

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Unknown to many members of the church, however, Ratzinger’s past includes brief membership of the Hitler Youth movement and wartime service with a German army anti- aircraft unit.

Although there is no suggestion that he was involved in any atrocities, his service may be contrasted by opponents with the attitude of John Paul II, who took part in anti-Nazi theatre performances in his native Poland and in 1986 became the first pope to visit Rome’s synagogue.







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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-05 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. Per WikiPedia: Short Answer. Yes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI

His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI (Latin: Benedictus XVI) was born Joseph Alois Ratzinger on April 16, 1927 in Bavaria, Germany. He is the reigning 265th pope, serving as the bishop of Rome, Patriarch of the West, head of the Roman Catholic Church and sovereign of Vatican City. He was elected on April 19, 2005, in the papal conclave over which he officiated in his capacity as Dean of the College of Cardinals. He was formally enthroned during the papal inauguration Mass on April 24, 2005.

<clip>
When Ratzinger turned 14 he joined the Hitler Youth, membership of which was ....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1572667,00.html

The Sunday Times - World

April 17, 2005

Papal hopeful is a former Hitler Youth
Justin Sparks, Munich, John Follain and Christopher Morgan, Rome


THE wartime past of a leading German contender to succeed John Paul II may return to haunt him as cardinals begin voting in the Sistine Chapel tomorrow to choose a new leader for 1 billion Catholics.
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, whose strong defence of Catholic orthodoxy has earned him a variety of sobriquets — including “the enforcer”, “the panzer cardinal” and “God’s rottweiler” — is expected to poll around 40 votes in the first ballot as conservatives rally behind him.

<clip>

Unknown to many members of the church, however, Ratzinger’s past includes brief membership of the Hitler Youth movement and wartime service with a German army anti- aircraft unit.

Although there is no suggestion that he was involved in any atrocities, his service may be contrasted by opponents with the attitude of John Paul II, who took part in anti-Nazi theatre performances in his native Poland and in 1986 became the first pope to visit Rome’s synagogue.







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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-05 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
2. Duplicate
Edited on Wed May-18-05 12:00 AM by Tigress DEM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI

His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI (Latin: Benedictus XVI) was born Joseph Alois Ratzinger on April 16, 1927 in Bavaria, Germany. He is the reigning 265th pope, serving as the bishop of Rome, Patriarch of the West, head of the Roman Catholic Church and sovereign of Vatican City. He was elected on April 19, 2005, in the papal conclave over which he officiated in his capacity as Dean of the College of Cardinals. He was formally enthroned during the papal inauguration Mass on April 24, 2005.

<clip>
When Ratzinger turned 14 he joined the Hitler Youth, membership of which was ....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1572667,00.html

The Sunday Times - World

April 17, 2005

Papal hopeful is a former Hitler Youth
Justin Sparks, Munich, John Follain and Christopher Morgan, Rome


THE wartime past of a leading German contender to succeed John Paul II may return to haunt him as cardinals begin voting in the Sistine Chapel tomorrow to choose a new leader for 1 billion Catholics.
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, whose strong defence of Catholic orthodoxy has earned him a variety of sobriquets — including “the enforcer”, “the panzer cardinal” and “God’s rottweiler” — is expected to poll around 40 votes in the first ballot as conservatives rally behind him.

<clip>

Unknown to many members of the church, however, Ratzinger’s past includes brief membership of the Hitler Youth movement and wartime service with a German army anti- aircraft unit.

Although there is no suggestion that he was involved in any atrocities, his service may be contrasted by opponents with the attitude of John Paul II, who took part in anti-Nazi theatre performances in his native Poland and in 1986 became the first pope to visit Rome’s synagogue.







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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-05 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. Not only was he a Hitler youth hatemonger,
he also served as an anti aircraft gunner. We have truly fallen through the looking glass into the proverbial parallel universe and there is no powerful "allies" consortium to jump in and defeat the bad guys. They (and we) are the bad guys!
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-05 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Oh, come on.
If he didn't join the Hitler Youth, his life would have been in danger. He also deserted his post as the anti-aircraft gunner into which he was drafted at the age of 16.


Let's focus on the real issues behind this Pope, his ultra-conservative views of Catholicism.
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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-05 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Did you read the rest of the post?
I understand that "his life would have been in danger" but the "real pope" John Paul II (although also conservative, was able to recognize evil when he saw it and had the balls to stand up to it.)

Don't you think with the way the world is turned upside down and with atrocities being committed by the Religious Right that it would be very much in everyone's best interests to be aware of a Pope (read powerful world leader) that says he is close to God, but didn't "get" the idea that Hitler was evil when he was immersed in it and is AGAIN stepping in line with the behaviors of the suppressors of TRUTH by axing Father Thomas Reese for telling the TRUTH?
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-05 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. Been there, done that, still have the t-shirt
from a month ago. Where were you?

What he was forced to do as a 14 year old is of little concern to me. His family was demonstratably anti-Hitler. They had to be forced to admit the kid to the HY. He went AWOL before he was done.

Most of the Germans of his age group will be found to have been HY, I reckon.

Really, his positions on the issues NOW are more of a concern than what he was doing then. Or should we start executing those 14 year olds even though the Supreme Court said we couldn't? Because if Ratzinger must be held accountable for the actions of a 14 year old, then all 14 year olds must be held accountable for their actions.
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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-05 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. I don't know why your undies are in a bundle...
I'm not all about what he did "as a youth" except as it relates to suppressing the truth by ousting Father Reese who was speaking about real issues and real faith.

I'm saying that those type of behaviors don't befit a priest who would be Pope. I don't like his conservative Catholic views, but if he keeps his views in the Church and I have the choice not to go there that is one thing.

If he is going to repeat his "fall in step behavior" because he is worried that the Church will crumble under the weight of all the scandals around it, then he is as big a danger as Bush.

You yourself brought up another simularity that bugs me. In Nazi Germany he was rich enough to be somewhat shielded from the effects, kind of like Bush who "sort of" went to war and then conviently awol.

You are free to have your opinion and I mine. It's just that the things I find scary in a man holding that much power are different from the things that bug you it seems.

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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-05 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. You Come On
Edited on Wed May-18-05 12:15 AM by atreides1
Many didn't join the Hitler youth, and yes some even paid for it with their lives. Near his own hometown a group of young Catholics
opposed to Hitler and the Nazis were executed.

And he was actually drafted 3 times into the German Army, he was
assigned to an anti-aircraft unit, then after returining home he was sent to the Austrian border with Hungary and was part of the engineers and helped to construct anti-tank traps for use against the
Russians.

He returned home in November of 1944, and was once again put into the Army, this time in the infantry, he deserted after Hitler killed
himself.

In the 60's he wasn't very happy with the young Germans who protested the Vietnam war, referring to them as thugs.

So he did have a choice, he just lacked the courage that others had.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-05 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
4. He can't deny it.
By all accounts, he led a protected happy and privileged boyhood in the midst of the Nazi atrocities, and then joined the Hitler youth like all good little bastards.
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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-05 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Looks a bit untrustworthy to me.... more like a politician than a holy man

< >
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-05 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Looks like some kind of evil nut case to me
The catholic church is in a tailspin. In OC California they have just settled for something like 100 MILLION DOLLARS for the local abuse claims. The roof of the church hall in my town rotted away and collapsed 2 months ago, and they have no money to fix it, it remains that way today.
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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-05 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. As a former Catholic - I've probably been excommunicated by now...
Edited on Wed May-18-05 12:04 AM by Tigress DEM
I would rather not be aware of these things. But the pain of it is that the church has been used before as a political tool and it is very important that a man who can be trusted to do God's will sits there at the head of the church, not someone who will fall in line with behaviors of concealing evidence that doesn't match their predetermined party line.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-05 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. That guy isn't a man of god, he is a hack politico
opportunist among a bunch of non-temporal lambs. A shrewd bastard with some kind of wild retro dark age fetish.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-05 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. He's 78 years old
I grant you, probably not at his peak.

Surely we have more to go on than what he looks like, and what he did when he was 14.
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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-05 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. I AM talking about what he has done recently.
The rethug tactic of intimidating reporters that tell the truth started in Baghdad with the murder of two reporters.

Search Truth Out for the "Two Murders" and you will find an investigative report about that.

If the Pope is beginning his reign by silencing dissident voices, that is a bad thing. A very, very bad thing.


It isn't as bad as what has happened to reporters as a result of the war in Iraq and the policy of the US to shoot first and ask questions later - only if caught - but in a holy man it is just beyond horrible. Here is a man who should hold the truth in much higher esteem than any political figure. He says he is God's representative here on Earth.


He may not have reporters murdered, but if he's shutting them down, he's still very much on the same page as those who murder reporters because the goal is the same even if the methods differ.



BTW - If anyone hasn't seen it. The list of reporters killed in Iraq since the war began.

Put out by Reporters Without Borders.

JOURNALISTS KILLED
Name Nationality/Media outlet Date
1 Paul Moran Australian/ABC 22 March 2003
2 Terry Lloyd British/ ITN 23 March 2003
3 Kaveh Golestan Iranian/BBC 2 April 2003
4 Michael Kelly American/Washington Post 4 April 2003
5 Christian Liebig German/Focus 7 April 2003
6 Julio Anguita Parrado Spanish/El Mundo 7 April 2003
7 Tarek Ayoub Jordanian/Al-Jazeera 8 April 2003
8 Taras Protsyuk Ukrainian/Reuters 8 April 2003
9 José Couso Spanish/Telecinco 8 April 2003
10 Ahmad Karim Iraqi/Kurdistan Satellite TV 2 July 2003
11 Mazen Dana Palestinian/Reuters 17 August 2003
12 Ahmed Shawkat Iraqi/Bila Ittijah 28 October 2003
13 Ali Al-Khatib Iraqi/Al-Arabiya 19 March 2004
14 Ali Abdel-Aziz Iraqi/Al-Arabiya 18 March 2004
15 Nadia Nasrat Iraqi/Diyala 18 March 2004
16 Burhan al-Louhaybi Iraqi/ABC News 26 March 2004
17 Assad Kadhim Iraqi/Al-Iraqiya 19 April 2004
18 Waldemar Milewicz Polish/TVP 7 May 2004
19 Mounir Bouamrane Algerian/TVP 7 May 2004
20 Kotaro Ogawa Japanese/freelance 27 May 2004
21 Shinsuke Hashida Japanese/freelance 27 May 2004
22 Sahar Saad Muami Iraqi/Al-Mizan 3 June 2004
23 Hossam Ali Iraqi/freelance 15 August 2004
24 Mahmud Abbas Iraqi/ZDF 15 August 2004
25 Enzo Baldoni Italian/Diario della Settimana 26 August 2004
26 Mazen al-Tomaizi Palestinian/Al-Arabiya 12 September 2004
27 Ahmad Jassem Iraqi/Al-Iraqiya 7 October 2004
28 Dina Hassan Iraqi/Al-Hurriya 14 October 2004
29 Karam Hussein Iraqi/EPA 14 October 2004
30 Liqaa Abdul-Razzak Iraqi/Al-Iraqiya 27 October 2004
31 Dhia Najim Iraqi/Reuters 1 November 2004
32 Abdel Hussein Khazaal Iraqi/Al-Hurra 9 February 2005
33 Raeda Wazzan Iraqi/Al-Iraqiya 25 February 2005
34 Laik Ibrahim Iraqi/Kurdistan Satellite TV 10 March 2005
35 Hussam Hilal Sarsam Iraqi/Kurdistan Satellite TV 14 March 2005
36 Ahmed Jabbar Hashim Iraqi/Al Sabah 1 April 2005
37 Shamal Abdallah Assad Iraqi/Kurdistan Satellite TV 15 April 2005
38 Ali Abrahim Aissa Iraqi/Al-Hurriya 14 April 2005
39 Fadel Hazem Fadel Iraqi/Al-Hurriya 14 April 2005
40 Saleh Ibrahim Iraqi/AP 23 April 2005


MEDIA ASSISTANTS KILLED
Name Nationality/Media outlet Date
1 Hussein Osman Lebanese/ITN 22 March 2003
2 Kamaran Muhamed Iraqi/BBC 6 April 2003
3 Jeremy Little American/NBC 7 July 2003
4 Yasser Khatab Iraqi/CNN 27 January 2004
5 Duraid Isa Mohammed Iraqi/CNN 27 January 2004
6 Mohamad Ahmad Iraqi/Diyala TV 18 March 2004
7 Majid Rashid Iraqi/Diyala TV 18 March 2004
8 Omar Hashim Kamal Iraqi/Time 26 March 2004
9 Hussein Saleh Iraqi/Al-Iraqiya 19 April 2004
10 Rashid Hamid Wali Iraqi/Al-Jazeera 21 May 2004
11 (unknown) Iraqi (local media) 25 May 2004
12 (unknown) Iraqi (local media) 27 May 2004
13 Samia Abdeljabar Iraqi/Al-Sabah Al-Jadid 29 May 2004
14 Mahmud Ismail Daud Iraqi/Al-Sabah Al-Jadid 29 May 2004
15 Jamal Tawfiq Salmane American/Gazeta Wyborcza 25 August 2004
16 Ismail Taher Mohsin Iraqi/AP 2 September 2004


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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-05 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
14. Yes he was. It has been looked into. Most all kids had to join. I mean
those from Aryan type families.

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neweurope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-05 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
16. Come on now! Of course he was. He was born in 1927
Edited on Wed May-18-05 12:34 AM by neweurope
which makes him 6 years old when the Nazis came into power. He like every other German child had years of brainwashing before he like (damn near) every other German child joined the Hitler youth. You speak as if this was a conscious political decision of Ratzinger. It wasn't; the boy Josef just did what everybody did. Or do you really think that a 14-year old brainwashed child is capable of political decisions, and what's more, that he should have seen what damn near every grown-up didn't see?

And PLEASE no double morals here: The US soldiers who fight in Iraq are just doing their duty and deserve your support while Bushco. is solely responsible... no? Well, the guys in your army are full grown men who - one look in a history book should be enough - know damn well that the upper class of their country will use them time and again in attacking and oppressing poor third world countries... and they join the army nevertheless. And you support them nevertheless. They are not brainwashed youths who are forced to join!

That said I want to state that I can't stand Ratzinger. I can't stand him because of what he stands for: ultra conservatism. What he did or did not do when he was a child is of no consequence here whatsoever.

----------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!
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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-05 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. A person's moral compass is set up when they are very young.
John Paul was also conservative, but what I am trying to say is there is a difference here.

Surely, I can feel for someone who as a child was subjected to such an awful life, but if he was brainwashed as a child, how much of that has remained?

This kind of mental leaning toward doing what it takes to not be run over by those in power may be conditioned in him, may be something he isn't even aware of, but it will likely cause him to be persuaded by Bush's tactics of strong arming and propoganda than someone who did not have that experience.

A woman who as a child has been molested by someone trusted will blame herself and often get into an abusive relationship as a result because it feels familiar even though it isn't healthy.

Do I blame the victim in this case? No. But would I expect her to be able to handle a position of world leadership if I didn't think she had gotten help to get beyond it? No.

Bush's family was also involved with Hitler and there are dreadful simularities to the tactics being deployed. If Benedict is susceptible to those kind of tactics, the church could be used as a weapon against us as it has been in other times. Times when the church itself benefited financially and memberwise from enforcement from other nations to make people tow a religious line.

If Benedict keeps his conservatism within the church, then people can choose not to go there and the church will eventually dwindle down to those people who truly believe in those things. If that's the way the church is going. Good riddance, I say, and I love my church - or I did before it went nuts.

I don't see him letting that happen, though, based on his effort to get rid of his liberal priests or at least silence them. It seems much more likely that he will cozy up to Bush and get his piece of the world pie for the church.





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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-05 12:54 AM
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19. Locking.
This thread is inflammatory. For further information please see DU Rules here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-05 12:55 AM
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20. You're late to the party.
We discussed nothing else for a solid two weeks or more, back when this place transformed into PopeUnderground.
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