Why is Darfur not an issue? How many must die before DU Liberals get mad?

[FrenchieCat]

Just finished watching "Hotel Rwanda" for the 2nd time.

The star of the movie addresses us, the audience, after the film, and states that what happened in Rwanda is happening in Darfur.

So where is the DU LIBERAL outrage? Why aren't we doing something about this other than acknowledging that it's happening. Do we just wait till it's all done and point our finger at Bush? Is there not anything we can do about this now?

http://www.eamedia.org/2005/nr05/01.php
US FORCES SHOULD INTERVENE IN DARFUR, SUDAN – GEN. WESLEY CLARK
Almaty, Kazakhstan, April 23 – The United States should intervene militarily to stop the killing in the Darfur province of Sudan, General Wesley Clark told a media conference in Kazakhstan.

"US forces with a mandate and adequate cover should go in and stop the ethnic cleansing and genocide in Darfur," he said in answer to a question. "It has gone on long enough. Enough is enough. It must stop."

http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/USATODAY/2004/07/06/501055?extID=10026
Out of time in Darfur
By Wesley Clark and John Prendergast | Jul 06 '04

For the past year, the international community has shamefully acquiesced to the crimes against humanity occurring daily in the Sudanese province of Darfur.

"Janjaweed" militias, Arabs backed by the Sudanese government, are continuing to conduct mop-up operations against non-Arab villagers in a massive ethnic-cleansing campaign in the region. The current conflict flared early last year when two rebel groups in Darfur attacked government forces. The swelling crisis could leave hundreds of thousands dead in the coming months.

Also, Clark is a board member of this group here:
http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=3060&l=1
as a Vice Chair -- of which George Soros is a chairman...
http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=1139&l=1

And here's some information on the Rwanda-Time line, and some comments about Wes Clark's involvement in attempting to get something done about it.
http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/4018.html

http://www.darfurgenocide.org/
The Crime of Our New Century...
The Sudanese Government, using Arab "Janjaweed" militias, its air force, and organized starvation, is systematically killing the black Sudanese of Darfur.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3918765.stm
US House calls Darfur 'genocide'
Friday, 23 July, 2004

http://savedarfur.org/
Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
The Crisis in Darfur

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110006463
NO MORE RWANDAS
The Darfur Genocide
Enough excuses. The time to act is now.
BY DON CHEADLE AND JOHN PRENDERGAST
Thursday, March 24, 2005 12:01 a.m. EST

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=506795

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050516&s=grahamfelsen
Harvard Divests

WHAT IS HAPPENING, HAPPENED BEFORE....AND, HERE, ON DU, WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT THIS MUCH MORE.

WE CAN FUSS AND FIGHT ALL WE WANT ABOUT THE 2004 ELECTIONS, ELECTIONS 2006 & 2008, DE LAY, SOCIAL SECURITY, IRAQ, HILLARY, THE NUCLEAR OPTION, IRAN AND NORTH KOREA....BUT SOME PEOPLE ARE TOO BUSY DYING IN DARFUR TO GIVE A SHIT ABOUT ALL OF THAT. WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHAT WE, LIBERALS ARE REALLY SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT.......!

WHAT YOU CAN DO...NOW!

Write To your local newspaper and to Congress. Urge increased international aid and attention to Darfur. Keep this issue alive.

Write A letter of protest to Ambassador Khidir Haroun Ahmed, Embassy of Sudan, 2210 Massachusetts Ave NW, Washington DC 20008.

http://hcs.harvard.edu/~hcdag/
How do I get Involved?

SIGN THE PETITION, IF YOU HAVEN'T....
http://www.darfurgenocide.org/darfurIntervention.php

AND DONATE
http://www.darfurgenocide.org/donate.php

DARFUR: A GENOCIDE WE CAN STOP
600,000 LIVES ARE DEPENDING ON OUR ACTIONS

[Erika]

1. Where is the Bush outrage of Durfar?

Shouldn't that be the first question asked?

[FrenchieCat]

3. Nope. We already know that they ain't gonna do diddly squat....

the question should be asked of each and everyone of our liberal (so concerned) selves....what are WE gonna do about it?

People are dying. It ain't about blaming someone else anymore. You can point a finger at Bush after you've done what you could do. No?

Note, that I give action items to do at the end of this OP. Did you read it?

[angee_is_mad]

12. Constructive thread

finally. Thanks so much for posting links to the thread, Frenchie.

[FrenchieCat]

19. Hello.....

angee_is_mad :hi:

Just feel truly upset after watching "Hotel Rwanda" again.

Want to see if we learned anything, or just nothing at all.

Want to see if "Liberal is as Liberal does...or more Liberal as Liberal talk."

[DulceDecorum]

90. Dyncorp is already sodomizing people in Darfur in your name.

But they haven't built any naked human pyramids yet
-- at least not as far as I know.

WHEN WILL YOU HAVE HAD YOUR FILL OF BLOOD?

Military Contractors Working for Peace
Dyncorp is already working in Sudan, under the same State Department contract, on the long-standing "North-South" peace negotiations to end the 21-year civil war between the Government of Sudan and the Sudan People's Liberation Movement, the rebel group based in the south. The company provides staff in Washington DC who arrange housing and transportation to the delegates who meet in Nairobi, Kenya.

"Why are we using private contractors to do peace negotiations in Sudan? The answer is simple," says a senior United States government official who works on Sudan-related issues who preferred to remain anonymous. "We are not allowed to fund a political party or agenda under United States law, so by using private contractors, we can get around those provisions. Think of this as somewhere between a covert program run by the CIA and an overt program run by the United States Agency for International Development. It is a way to avoid oversight by Congress."

DynCorp has dozens of these little contracts all over the world from Afghanistan to the Mexican border, several of which have landed the company in hot water. Most recently French defense minister, Michele Alliot-Marie, who recently visited Afghan president Hamid Karzai in Kabul, was quoted saying that the behavior of Karzai's DynCorp bodyguards "gives a very bad impression" because of the aggressive way they treated visitors. Indeed even Colin Powell's security staff were once reported by the Washington Post as "furious" at the way that DynCorp guards treated them.

The State Department rebuked DynCorp last week for the incident. Mike Dickerson, director of communications for Computer Sciences Corporation, DynCorp's parent company, declined to comment on the State Department scolding but pointed out that the government had also stated that DynCorp was providing "outstanding" services in difficult and dangerous circumstances in Afghanistan.

But DynCorp's role in another State Department contract also appears designed to circumvent United States law under Plan Colombia. In the Colombian conflict, Washington has supplied more than 70 Black Hawk and Huey helicopters and other military hardware that are maintained and flown by private contractors.

Anxious to avoid the "secret wars" conducted by the Pentagon in Laos and Cambodia in the 1960s, Congress limited the number of US personnel that can operate in Colombia to 400 in uniform and 400 civilian contractors at any given time. US law also requires congressional notification before the government can approve the export of military services valued at $50 million or more.

By limiting each individual contract to several million dollars; LABELLING THEM PEACE-KEEPING MISSIONS; employing retired CIA and Special Forces personnel working for private contractors as well as foreign nationals (to whom the 400 person ceiling does not apply), Congress does not have to be notified, making the contracts harder to oversee.

Gagnon also points out that in the late 1990s, DynCorp contractors in Bosnia were caught trafficking in child sex slaves in Bosnia while working on a peace-keeping mission. "Many of the private contractors didn't have a clue about the local culture or anything about the country so you wonder how effective they can be. Most of them were just ex-military or police officers," she said.
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=11598

[FrenchieCat]

107. So because corporations are there.....

People should die? That's ok with you?

400,000 Dead bodies can't even move someone as smart as yourself, it would seem.

I've got news for you.....Corporations are everywhere. I'm sure money was made off of the Holocaust as well. Maybe we should ignore the whole matter....again.

[Name removed]

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[FrenchieCat]

117. Genocide is what I am talking about....

You're the one talking money, banks, paying victims and profits. WTF?

You don't speak for the Sudanese people....which is one of those small details that you are forgetting.

Again, try not to spam....it only confuses those who don't take time to read links.

[Name removed]

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[FrenchieCat]

123. Like, please give me a link where there are dying people and

their families saying Keep out.

Please give me something other than your triate.

Thanks.

[DulceDecorum]

127. Sudan says no to non-African forces in Darfur

KHARTOUM, May 14, 2005 (Xinhua via COMTEX) -- A Sudanese official said on Saturday said that Sudan rejects non-African forces in the troubled western region of Darfur.

Minister of State in charge of Foreign Affairs Tijani Salih Fideil made the remarks after a meeting, chaired by First Vice President Ali Othman Taha, discussed the Darfur conflict.

Fideil said during the meeting, he informed the participants of his recent talks with the African Union (AU), which he said refuted what has been circulated about participation of Canadian troops in a mission to defuse the Darfur crisis.

He said that Canada has said it has intended to facilitate an AU mission through technical and logistic support.

"We welcome any logistic support, including that of non-African countries, to facilitate the AU's mission to succeed," he said.
http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/MHII-6CF5LW?OpenDocument

STAY YOUR ASS AT HOME.
The African Union is dealing with the situation.

[FrenchieCat]

129. Oh...I see, the dying people have those killing them responding

for them...

cause why?

Oh yeah, cause the Sudanese People they are too busy dying at the hands of the government to speak for themselves.

So sad....you myopic logic!

[Name removed]

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[FrenchieCat]

138. No.....I refuse to sit by and watch innocent people being killed...

So now the CIA is killing 400,000 Sudanese?

Maybe they have a hand in it...that I don't know.

What I do know is that those Sudanese people don't want to die.

Are you saying that they do?

[DulceDecorum]

140. WOW only one opinion is tolerated here.

Time to go.
One day you really ought to sit down and talk to those Africans whose wishes are being given the Shiavo treatment.

[DulceDecorum]

159. RE: it only confuses those who don't take time to read links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur

[Name removed]

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[DulceDecorum]

97. Oil Profits Behind West’s Tears for Darfur

Some left-wing commentators have interpreted the motive behind Washington's newfound concern for Darfur-as well as the British and Australian governments' volunteering of troops for a phantom UN intervention force-as an effort by Washington to justify an Iraq-style invasion of Sudan to achieve "regime change" and seize control of its potentially massive oil reserves.
http://www.worldpress.org/Africa/1911.cfm

IRAQ all over again...
Blood for oil.

[FrenchieCat]

109. Washington ain't concerned worth shit!

They ain't moving toward anything.

Bushco. likes things just the way that they are.

Turn the other way...make a bit of noise...while the Sudanese government kill a few hundred darkies to keep the oil barons ALREADY IN THE SUDAN nice and happy.

[Name removed]

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[FrenchieCat]

122. Yeah....

Who gives a fuck about some hundreds of thousand dead Sudanese...as long as U.S. keep their hands of the oil? Well the US don't want and don't need that oil....but they are close to those who do, and who already control it.

You're right Neocons ain't about to go into Sudan...not because they can't...cause they could...but because they don't need to.

US has got their own oil...in IRAQ. Doh!

PS. You should attempt to keep Jesus out of this one...cause I don't think he'd be into worrying about the Neocons and their thirst for oil, like you are....when it comes to this many lives. He'd be more concerned with the dying folks. You know...the dead and dying Darkies!

[DulceDecorum]

125. How many were DYING in Iraq BEFORE the US went there?

How many did the US claim to kill TODAY?

[FrenchieCat]

128. You're talking Iraq.....

I'm talking the Sudan.

You're talking oil; I'm talking lives.

you're talking Corporations; I'm talking humans.

You're talking Neocon imperialism; I'm talking Intervention in Genocide.

I'm talking divesting; you're talking do nothing.

I'm talking helpless Sudanese; you're talking the Sudanese Govt., and what it wants.

You're talking Kicking Ass; I'm talking saving lives.

I think that we just don't see things the same, at all.

[Name removed]

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[funflower]

2. I think people are outraged but feel powerless....

What do y'all think would be the best way to address the atrocities in Darfur?

[FrenchieCat]

4. Well I realize that...which is why I tried to make my OP a constructive

one....by providing information on what we can do.

If you think we are powerless....how must these poor souls in Darfur feel?

This is wrong, and we must say so....over, and over again. Just think if it were you.

WHAT YOU CAN DO...NOW!

Write To your local newspaper and to Congress. Urge increased international aid and attention to Darfur.

Keep this issue alive. Get informed, and discuss this with your friends, family and co-workers.

Write A letter of protest to Ambassador Khidir Haroun Ahmed, Embassy of Sudan, 2210 Massachusetts Ave NW, Washington DC 20008.

http://hcs.harvard.edu/~hcdag/
How do I get Involved?

SIGN THE PETITION, IF YOU HAVEN'T....
http://www.darfurgenocide.org/darfurIntervention.php

AND DONATE
http://www.darfurgenocide.org/donate.php

DARFUR: A GENOCIDE WE CAN STOP
600,000 LIVES ARE DEPENDING ON OUR ACTIONS

[funflower]

Just signed the petition, and I promise to write a letter to the Sudanese

ambassador. I'll also pass on your links. Hope that helps a little anyway.

[FrenchieCat]

11. Thank you! of course every bit helps.....

We have to do what we can.

[lenidog]

6. The question is how do we do anything

The UN has already said that their is no genocide going on. The EU says there is but does nothing. The US says their is but does nothing either. The OAS has decided after a couple months to boost the size of the "peacekeepers" from 3,200 to 7,300 but they wont be there till the end of May and I am not betting on them to do nothing but jack shit. So there is four of the largest groups that can do anything but either they wont or they are dragging their feet. So what can we do? I want to know but it seems that outside of raising our own army to protect the people their is nothing.

[Name removed]

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[lenidog]

8. I am sure the tens of thousands and probably will die appreciate

your sentiments.

[Name removed]

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[Psephos]

13. A lot more people are dying in Sudan than Iraq right now.

This is much larger than US/Democrat/repug issues. It's time for everyone to come together on this one, and set the parochial squabbles aside.

The situation in Sudan is a humanitarian crisis, and a world responsibility. The African Union is doing nothing, the UN is planning more committee meetings and statements of concern, and the Arabs are standing by with their hands in their pockets, whistling.

Someone needs to open a can of whoop-ass, and soon. I believe the US can and should do something positive and constructive here.

G E N O C I D E. Sheesh. What could be worse? Wasn't Rwanda enough?

Peace.


EDIT: Added a line about possible US involvement.

[Name removed]

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[foo_bar]

81. there is some gray area between neocon-imperialism and Buchananism

At least there should be.

[Name removed]

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[foo_bar]

101. since we're mixing analogies

The Sudanese govt would be the half-naked guy in front of his trailer going "no domestic situation here!".

Half of me agrees with you, since the Bushies are the blunt instrument of justice, but the other half of me thinks the Bushies are doing exactly as you suggest.

[DulceDecorum]

106. US BACKS OFF GENOCIDE CHARGE IN DARFUR

Someone here didn't get the memo.

3 May 2005
... Three resolutions on Sudan passed in quick succession by the United Nations Security Council (UNSC) recently were intended to put pressure on Khartoum. Receiving the most attention was the last of the three—Resolution 1593, passed on March 31 by 11 votes with 4 abstentions. This resolution, submitted by France, refers the situation in Darfur to the ICC and hands over to the court the UN inquiry’s list of 51 suspected war criminals.
After much discussion, the US, which is vehemently opposed to the ICC, decided that to veto the resolution would be politically damaging, especially following its earlier “genocide” charge. Consequently, the US requested assurances that Americans deployed in Sudan, in whatever capacity, would not be subject to ICC prosecutions. It then abstained along with China, Algeria and Brazil. The US administration may also have abstained to avoid embarrassing its close ally Britain, which is a signatory to the ICC.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/may2005/sudn-m03.shtml

the US requested assurances that Americans deployed in Sudan, in whatever capacity, would not be subject to ICC prosecutions.

the US requested assurances that Americans deployed in Sudan, in whatever capacity, would not be subject to ICC prosecutions.

WHY?
WHAT HAVE THEY BEEN DOING?

[FrenchieCat]

111. the US requested assurances that Americans deployed

ANYWHERE. DOH! Didn't you know that was the Bush policy? No Americans responsible for anything anywhere.

So your suggestion that we sit on our hands....coz? I still don't know.

You're confusing people with oil, corporation with people, Bush with Democrats, and giving us the choice of Pat Buchanan isolationism vs. Bush Imperialism. Your world is obviously black and white. The grey represent the people dying....but you don't see grey. Pity!

[Name removed]

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[FrenchieCat]

14. So what's your point?

Fuck it? Darfur ain't our problem?

Gee, how Liberal of you!

[Name removed]

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[The Magistrate]

15. A Very Broad And Humane Perspective, Mr. Decorum

An excellent argument for doing nothing about a sizeable atrocity on-going today....

[DulceDecorum]

23. I can't argue with YOU

because you are a mod.

[The Magistrate]

25. Of Course You Can Argue With Me, Sir

Many people do....

[DulceDecorum]

28. Frankly

I value my membership her far far more than any intercourse with you.
And now, I shall gracefully withdraw from further participation on this thread.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

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[DulceDecorum]

91. Thanks.

:blush:

[lenidog]

94. You are welcome.

Usually someone comes up with some BS argument or just never replies. You just come up with a really lame excsue and run.

[Name removed]

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[FrenchieCat]

115. The only asses getting kicked in reference to this subject

are the black people of Darfur.

Patronizing anyone, when 400,000 have already perished is really not a "dearie" type of matter.

Just cause you re-entered a thread and started posting shit inserted here and there all over the place, doesn't equal to kicking ass, at all. People understand what the post number means. When your post 90 responds to post #19, it makes you a bully......kicking ass is based more on skill than on spamming.

[Name removed]

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[FrenchieCat]

126. No they are not anybody's toy...and certainly not yours!

Your talk of allowing thousands to be killed to justify your contentment to not see the Neocons going in is fuzzy thinking to my mind.

If the neocon wanted to...that is the one place where they could go....and no one would be concerned about it...or say, No, you can't do this. In fact, it would change their image for the better with the world community and Americans at home. Yet they choose not to for a reason. Ever thought of that Genius? What are the Dying Black people of Darfur telling you about that?

[Name removed]

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[dogman]

30. Iraq is horrible, but it is not genocide.

The African Union does not make US policy.

[DulceDecorum]

34. Why is the US killing Iraqis?

The African Union does not make US policy, that is true.
But then, neither do the the citizens of the US.
Thomas Barnett and Cantor Fitzgerald and the Pentagon do.

[WMliberal]

72. you'd have us wait for the African Union to ask for help before

you'd have us act?
Who listens to the African Union anyway?
It's genocide on a scale even larger than Kosovo. Iraq, in terms of ongoing atrocities, is small potatoes next to Darfur.

[Name removed]

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[Darranar]

92. I would not support a US imperial venture in the Sudan...

whatever the excuse was.

That said, I would support a UN peacekeeping operation in the Sudan to protect the refugees and the distributors of humanitarian aid, even if US forces were involved.

Genocide is something that the international community should not tolerate.

[DulceDecorum]

102. August 22, 1998: Thousands stage anti-U.S. protest in Sudan

.... On Saturday, thousands of demonstrators poured into central Khartoum to protest the missile strikes, which Sudan said had destroyed a factory that produced about half of the medicine in Sudan.

"Down, down USA," protesters shouted, some wearing military-style camouflage and singing nationalist songs as their vehicles waited in traffic backed up for miles.

Men shouted through megaphones and people held banners proclaiming: "No to killing of the innocent."
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/africa/9808/22/air.strikes.follow/

They already HATE you.
And the ONLY reason why the US "wants peace"
is so that they can steal the oil in the Sudan.

And besides,
THE WAR IS OVER.
OVER.
OVER.

KHARTOUM, Sudan, April 16 2005(UPI) -- Sudan said Saturday initial oil drilling operations in the troubled Darfur region indicate there is abundant oil in the area.
Sudan Energy Minister Awad al-Jaz told reporters in Khartoum an oil field was found in southern Darfur and it is expected to produce 500,000 barrels of oil per day by August.
Most of the country's oil production comes from oil fields in southern Sudan, where a peace treaty was recently signed between the government and rebels.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/?feed=TopNews&article=UPI-1-20050416-10204000-bc-sudan-oil.xml

KHARTOUM, Sudan, April 27 2005(UPI) -- The first contingent of U.N. peacekeeping forces arrived in Sudan Wednesday to help implement a peace agreement that ended the country's 20-year civil war.
<snip>
More than 10,000 peacekeepers will be deployed in Sudan under U.N. resolution 1590. The move was undertaken upon the request of the Sudanese government and the rebel Sudan People's Liberation Movement, both of which signed a peace agreement in Nairobi last January (2005)ending their long-protracted war.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/?feed=TopNews&article=UPI-1-20050427-13510000-bc-sudan-unforces.xml

[FrenchieCat]

130. 1998? 1998?

My goodness......the war is over, yet the killing goes on, Einstein!

Some of us say Divest U.S., we write letters, and yes, we support humanitarian Intervention.

You've got a problem with that?

Well the dying people of the Sudan have a more pressing problem than yours.

[Name removed]

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[FrenchieCat]

144. You give me a link about Sudanese not wanting GM food?

Neither do I. Guess Sudanese and Americans have a lot more in common than you give them credit for. Why should the Sudanese nation want Genetically Modified food?

What does that have to do with anything, anyway?

[Erika]

7. Bush should be held responsible for this slaughter

Not the democrats.

[FrenchieCat]

16. What am saying isn't that....

It ain't about blaming somebody first.....

I'm sure that they'll be plenty of time for that....but right now
People are dying....and they don't give a shit who's a Democrat and who's a Republican.

My question is for those on DU. Is there anything YOU could do, that YOU HAVEN'T done?

That's what I'm talking about.

[melnjones]

52. I'm so sure...

Yeah, let's just blame Bush for EVERYTHING that happens in the world. I mean, he DOES single-handedly have the ability to fix every and any problem in the world.

Yes, as a world leader he has a responsibility to look at these situations and act accordingly. But as world citizens WE have a responsibility to look at it too, which is the whole point of this thread. Please realize that comments like what you just made play right into the hands of the republicans who claim all we do is complain and want others to fix things. I know you weren't saying that we do that, but please don't add fuel to their mindset. There are PLENTY of democrats and ordinary citizens who are doing absolutely nothing to help the situation either.

[rfkrfk]

9. what happened to the 'rest of the world' ?

can the EU do anything without shrub's permission?

[lenidog]

10. Yes it can and it wont, neither will the UN which was created for such

things they wont even admit their is genocide going on.

[FrenchieCat]

17. But does that take us "off the hook?" .....

[lenidog]

18. No it doesn't

but it helps stoke the fires to get the job done and find some way to stop it!

[Erika]

20. Bush, not the democrats, are responsible

He's got the power.

[FrenchieCat]

21. I could have sworn that I heard Howard Dean saying.....

WE'VE GOT THE POWER!

The facts are, according to your line.....just make Bush responsible for everything, and not feel that we need to do anything about anything......

But if that was the case....DU should be ONE GREAT BIG BLANK.....

DARFUR: A GENOCIDE WE CAN STOP
600,000 LIVES ARE DEPENDING ON OUR ACTIONS

[TheWraith]

22. I'm sure am opposed to genocide, and I'd be happy to do something about it

If anyone can offer me some airlift support, a seed force, and an ongoing supply of weaponry, I will. But, since I'm short about 200 armed fighers, I'm not in much of a position to stop a genocide, and I doubt anyone else here has the neccessary clout either. Petitions are great, but the people who have the direct influence to stop this don't care. The U.N. is looking the other way because too many of their third-world member nations want to keep their own wiggle room on human rights abuses. The U.S. doesn't care because the Republicans are in control, and it's only brown people dying. And the government of Sudan *does* care, because they support it. No amount of letters are going to convince the Sudanese government that they're wrong to be killing people. A few tons of high explosives riding a laser beam into the government capital might convince them, but the military is otherwise occupied.

It's not that we don't care, it's that we can't help.

[Adelante]

32. The military is otherwise occupied, yes

We have troops in Europe where they are not needed. Some of these troops can go into the Sudan under NATO. World nations have to show interest, use intensive diplomacy, and exhibit the willingness to use force, as the last resort, and to back up diplomatic efforts.

It is that we don't care.

[keihan]

36. UN is almost worthless anymore

I agree completely, TheWraith.

The UN can't even agree to disagree anymore. With Marxists from 3rd World countries hiding behind their own human rights abuses and members of the UN, it's any wonder.

As a Socialist (Social Democrat), myself, it is detrimental to world peace that these abuses be treated by the world as state sanctioned homicide. Anyone whom is a champion of freedom and democracy should voice that this is, indeed, OUR problem and should make their voices known that we should not sit idly by while defenseless men, women and children are butchered.

[Adelante]

100. Welcome to DU, keihan!!

:hi:

[FrenchieCat]

40. I see things differently on this one....

Harvard JUST divested from Sudan, based on the pressure put on it by Harvard Students....and others can AND will follow.

If the Sudanese Government get a massive number of letters from U.S. citizens, and that is coupled with U.S. businesses and Corporations divesting their investments in the Sudan.....it can hurt the Sudanese economy enough to where that government may rethink it's policy.

Just like it took the people of the U.S. to start and keep the ball rolling in reference to South Africa and Apartheid....back in the 80's, so are we needed in this case. It may have taken years to dismantle apartheid....but we should have taken away very important lessons about the methods to be used.....and we should be using those methods now.

Maybe we won't get anything done in time, and maybe we will. What's the harm in trying?

The point is, we cannot use possible defeat as an excuse for inaction. Cause when we are dicussing these events one day.....I don't want to hear from anyone who did'nt even try to do what they could do. That would make many....all mouth, and no action.

General Clark and a few others are doing what they can to sway opinion in favor of action....and so should we. We may not have their mouthpiece....but we are not totally helpless. I just don't believe that.

[DulceDecorum]

155. Regime change

TheWraith says:
A few tons of high explosives riding a laser beam into the government capital might convince them,

[Skittles]

26. I have to confess

I feel somewhat of a coward because I'm not able to even read about Darfur. The most I have done is donated to Doctors Without Borders for Darfur. I know I need to get more involved - I will try.

[FrenchieCat]

41. Thank you for understanding where I am coming from.....

It's like any other issue...trying doesn't hurt....and it may do some good.

We thank you for your donation.....and encourage you to get more involved.

Time is not on our side....on this one.

[wyldwolf]

29. I've had it in my signature for a few months...

http://coalitionfordarfur.blogspot.com/

[FrenchieCat]

42. Great info....at that link.

thanks for posting it!

[Adelante]

31. Such helplessness in this thread

So the US and Europe and the UN and Africa don't want to do anything. When did they ever? No genocide has been stopped without the moral outrage of ordinary world citizens forcing politicians off their asses. Frenchie is right. Do everything! Sign petitions, write to our elected officials, donate money, AND hound the media. Without intense media attention, nobody would have known or cared about Bosnia and the genocide would have continued in Kosovo.

If the world takes no interest, genocide goes on and goes on until it's too late, and after that, we can all sit back and forget about it, so it starts up someplace else. Then we get to wring our hands, like over Rwanda, and wail, Why oh why didn't *they* do something to stop it?

Well, *they* are us and people are dying now.

And please don't insult me by telling me people are dying in Iraq, because I fucking know that.

[Crunchy Frog]

33. Thanks for providing some concrete actions.

It's horrible to feel so helpless about something like that.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

38. I's a terrible thing to say...

but I am stricty focused right now on taking care of business at home. If we cannot stop Frist, fix BBV, and regain control of Congress and/or the White House there may never be an administration that even might give a shit about something like Dafur ever again.

[Pacifist Patriot]

39. I know how you feel.

When I remind myself about stuff like this I feel incredibly overwhelmed. On top of the already overwhelmed and frustrated feeling with respect to the insane asylum we call the USA. Please don't misunderstand me. I love my country and am working hard to improve it. But right now our social dynamics strike me as incredibly unhealthy.

[FrenchieCat]

43. That IS a terrible thing to say.....

Because if you were to put yourself in the shoes (if they have any) of those folks being massacred right now.....you wouldn't even Comprehend what you were saying.

My suggestion....So chew gum and walk at the same time.

Signing a petition and writing a letter or two....and donating 5 dollars to help save lives really isn't that time consuming.

Think about it some more....PLEASE

DARFUR: A GENOCIDE WE CAN STOP
600,000 LIVES ARE DEPENDING ON OUR ACTIONS

[Hell Hath No Fury]

46. The problem is...

there are many of us who are already walking and chewing gum at the same time on the multitude of issues we face here. I run a website solo, I am active in the fight against BBV, Bush's enviro policies, the judicial nightmare, the rise of theocracy at home, the sham that is Iraq, and the erosion of women's rights.

I'm sorry but I am tapped out right now.

What actions I have taken in regards to Dafur have been directed at the UN because, at the end of the day, Georger W. Bush isn't going to do dick about Dafur, no matter how big a stink we raise about it. So I consider my only viable options to be pressuring the UN and supporting the groups that are providing aid to refugees.

[FrenchieCat]

47. As long as you feel that you are doing what you can.....and

I hope, you at least, signed the petition....cause that just doesn't take much time.

I'm asking that we do WHAT WE CAN.....

If in all good conscience you feel like you have done that...then you will sleep well enough at night.

DARFUR: A GENOCIDE WE CAN STOP
600,000 LIVES ARE DEPENDING ON OUR ACTIONS

[Hell Hath No Fury]

48. Signed...and forwarded.

This is remarkably bad time in our world's history. And the most tragic thing is at a time when the world could greatly benefit from the leadership on the US on issues such as Darfur, global warming, and the AIDS pandemic, we have a "leader" to who those things don't matter one stinking bit.

[Tom Rinaldo]

54. Self Delete. Wrong post placement

[beaconess]

44. Just signed the petition - thanks for reminding us why we're fighting

I am very troubled, as you probably are, by the number of so-called liberals who, when asked to do a few simple things to try to fight genocide in Sudan, fall back on lame excuses for inaction. Whining that "mean old President Bush won't let me!" and "I have to save all my energy to fight this President" and "I'll do something when someone else does it first," is a cop-out, plain and simple.

Thanks for putting the fire under us - keep it up. Some of us are paying attention, appreciate it and will act. You are making a difference.

[FrenchieCat]

45. thank you for saying that and

Understanding the meaning of my OP.

If we don't try to be a part of the solution...then we are part of the problem.

If we can help, no matter how small....we should.

[CarolNYC]

71. Thanks Frenchie..

...for providing links to some things that we can do.

We may not be able to ensure that anything will be done by making known that this issue matters to us, especially with the crew we have in power now, but we can ensure that nothing will be done if we show that we don't care....

[Adelante]

67. That's the most puzzling part

Fighting the genocide is fighting this president.

I can't figure out how apparently hard this is to understand: Bushco is permitting the genocide just so US oil companies can get in there to explore for oil. The Russians and the Chinese are no better, plugging up any intervention action by the UN, but it's the US who's gotten the sanctions lifted by abstaining instead of voting no at the UN, and it's Bush who is blocking the Darfur Accountability Acts in Congress, actually pulling the money part out altogether, and it's Bush who has the CIA loving it up with the Sudanese intelligence service who supports the killer militias.



Go figure.

[FrenchieCat]

49. I will be bookmarking this thread

for posterity.

In addition, in the DU African-American Supporter group, we are and will be having a discussion about the lack of interest, priority, significance, and the citing of overwhelmness, not enough power, not enough time, no one else cares (so why should I) this thread actually picked up on. It is important to understand the priority of those who represent DU Liberals.

I do thank those who have promised to or have already done what they could. As that is all that I was asking....I commend you for even understanding what I was articulating. You are few in numbers, but high in intellect (obviously) and integrity. You are the Liberals that make a difference when the going get tough.

I hope that those DUers with excuses as to why they weren't doing anything don't show up in a thread stating outrage as to what happened later on in DU life. Cause I'll have this thread to demonstrate where their priorities really were, and how self defeating and limited many were.

So let the MORE IMPORTANT sujects of election 2004, 2006, 2008, how some feel about John Kerry, Hillary and other such important matters of priority continue to dominate DU General discussion on politics.

All I know is this. DU Liberals sure can talk the Liberal talk....but I'm no longer so sure just how many are walking the Liberal Walk.

NOW....ON WITH THE DU Liberal SHOW!

DARFUR: A GENOCIDE WE CAN STOP
600,000 LIVES ARE DEPENDING ON OUR ACTIONS

[Adelante]

51. I just read this on alt.muslim about Rwanda, dated 5/16/05

It is sadly fitting to this thread:

The Rwandan Genocide: What Would I Have Done?
Am I a Paul Rusesabagina? If I were in Paul Rusesabagina's shoes in 1994 would I have been able to do what he did?
By Junaid M. Afeef, May 16, 2005

-snip-

Seeing images of the genocide is unsettling to say the least. How can people be so cruel? How could these people view their neighbors and even young children as nothing more than cockroaches? How does a man hack to death a child with a machete? How could the world's superpowers stand idly by while all of this took place?

My answers to these questions are as disturbing as the questions. The genocide and the failure of the world to stop it are inseparably intertwined. The Rwandan genocide was made possible by my silence. My complacency in the face of such horrors is itself cruel and inhumane.

Luckily there is a salve to alleviate the pain I feel. This essay, maybe a few dollars to an African relief agency, and a few letters to my congresswoman and senators will soothe my aching conscience. My "activism" will placate my conscience and very soon I will be able to return to normal.

And while I enjoy ballgames, fancy coffee "drinks", my comfortable home and healthy family, in other places throughout the world millions of people will continue to suffer and die. So, until the release of "Camp Darfur", "Operation Falluja" or "The Apartheid Wall" I will go back to the very important issues of my personal life: dine in or carryout?

http://www.altmuslim.com/perm.php?id=1454_0_25_0_C

[FrenchieCat]

53. Wow!

Talking about relevant!

Thanks WesDem!

[beaconess]

73. Bingo!

I wonder if there would be such apathy if, instead of Africans dying by the thousands, these were, say French men, women and children. Think people would say, "Hey, I've got better things to do. And, besides, the European Union hasn't asked us to help, so leave me alone?"

I don't think so.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FrenchieCat]

105. Stop telling us what to do.

Pat!

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FrenchieCat]

133. One extreme is no better than the other......

You can keep worrying about the oil,

and let the humanitarians worry about the dying folks....will you?

Of course not.

Ironically, I'm not so sure why you are so worried that anyone will end up helping the dying black folks of Darfur....cause ain't no intervention gonna happen in Darfur.

Happy now? You've won! You've suceeded!

Glad most at Harvard are wrong, and you my friend, are the only one in this thread that is right.

Geniuses must be lonely people. Or maybe all of their "friends" are dead.

[DulceDecorum]

148. Nice post.

[melnjones]

50. Bookmarked.

Thank you for reminding us to look at where our priorities are. I'm doing my research on the issue now, and you're absolutely right, we can't sit by and do nothing.

[Tom Rinaldo]

55. Thank you for speaking up

Frequently those of us on the left claim that the United States government only cares about nations that have large oil reserves or other strategic assets, but we can be just as guilty of that same charge. If people suffer in the Mid East it becomes our priority. If it is in Africa it doesn't. Africa was used as a pawn by the super powers during the cold war. We have our share of responsibility for what happens there, but even if we didn't, do we now subscribe to "Fortress America"? Have we now become Neo Isolationists, shouting "U.S. Out of the World!"? The fact that American power has all too often caused innocents to become victims is not a justification to stand idly by, secure in our power, while innocents are victimized on a massive scale.

[FrenchieCat]

56. In this case, the Sudan has oil.....

but I don't think that this should be the pre-requisite of getting involved. We have to be intelligent enough to look at what is happening case by case. Cause Wrong is wrong.....oil or no.

Thanks Tom!

Here's another petition to sign here not listed in this thread till now....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3664969

[Tom Rinaldo]

57. Yeah that's right, I remember hearing something about that

Not enough yet it seems. But clearly you are right. The fact that there may be oil is not a reason for leftists to write that population off with an assumption that any intervention to save them would be hopelessly tainted by imperialism.

[Adelante]

58. It is exactly because the Sudan has oil

That Bushco is *not* intervening in the genocide. They're trading anti-terror information for a cover-up of the deaths of, so far, 400,000 human beings, with the intent of oil exploration once "normal" relations with this murderous government can be achieved. The Chinese and Russians are stopping progress at the UN for the same reason. It's oil and oil and oil, no matter how many die.

[Tom Rinaldo]

60. If we can blame it on U.S. Corporations more leftists will care

It sometimes seems mere generic genocide and the murder of a million people is not a compelling enough issue on it's own. Rwanda was a foot note at best to many Liberal Democrats.

[Adelante]

61. Maybe a little Amy Goodman might help

Sudan Tribune/Democracy Now 5/4/05

US allied with Sudan govt despite Darfur genocide

By Democracy Now

The Los Angeles Times has revealed that the U.S. has quietly forged a close intelligence partnership with Sudan despite the government's role in the mass killings in Darfur. We speak with Ken Silverstein, the reporter who broke the story, Salih Booker, the director of Africa Action as well as Rep. Donald Payne (D-NJ).

-snip-

AMY GOODMAN: Congress member Donald Payne, what do you plan to do now with this newly released information, and the whole issue of sanctions?

REP. DONALD PAYNE: Well, I will certainly raise the issue at our Congressional Black Caucus annual -- I mean, weekly meeting on Wednesday. I will be meeting with some of our colleagues who have been very supportive. Congressman Wolf, Congressman Tancredo, Congressman Cummings. And we will try to come up with some strategy, as Salih Booker said. We have come out strong. You know, it was three months after we declared genocide in the House and the Senate that the administration declared that genocide was going on. I listed 51, read them from the well of the House, 51 Sudanese persons, government officials, starting with the Vice President Taha, who allegedly is the one who orchestrated the release of the Janjaweed, supporting them financially, equipping them. And so he was the chief negotiator of the North-South Accord. He is alleged by Darfurans there and here as the one who is the mastermind. Now, how do you negotiate with him in good faith? What the U.S. government did a decade ago, the C.I.A. in their wisdom removed practically every single C.I.A. station in Africa, just eliminated 10, 12 years ago, as they were cutting back. Therefore, once again, mismanaging an agency have now to rely on government officials where if they had kept their kind of communications that they do allegedly -- I don't know how they actually operate, but they have operatives on the ground. By removing them from Africa, now they have to depend on the government of Sudan. Also, as it's been mentioned by Salih Booker, we put pressure Talisman, which was a Canadian company, to withdraw its activities in Sudan. The PetroChina and Malaysians went in in bigger force. We have got to put some pressure on China. However, I believe, as Salih said, that once you can get sanctions removed, then U.S. companies can go in. There are still a lot of untapped oil resources in Sudan. And that's a part of this agenda of trying to normalize relations with Sudan, so that U.S. oil companies can go in and start exploring oil.

-snip-

http://www.sudantribune.com/article.php3?id_article=9403

[FrenchieCat]

62. Truly Disgusting!

not that I am one bit surprised.

That's why I don't understand the relative silence on this.

Where in the Fuck is the outrage?

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FrenchieCat]

135. What other board?

Please do tell!

[ThorsHammer]

59. Agree completeley, I just wish something could be done

I personally believe this situation is much more serious than that of Iraq (pre-war), and that we need to do something about it.

[Solly Mack]

63. kick

I've signed several petitions and written emails out the ying yang...
and I cry....for all the good it does...I cry

[movie_girl99]

64. Al Franken brought it up on Bill Maher on Friday n/t

[Bethany Rockafella]

65. Thank you. I signed the petition.

It's the least I could do. And I also borrow your header to put in my sig line. Thanks.

[FrenchieCat]

66. Thank you! n/t

[brindis_desala]

68. I have written to the NYTimes on this as have many others including

columnist Kristof. The problem is simple: the U.S. government is being run by Big Oil and the corrupt Sudan government is a useful puppet. The goals of the American oil companies are probably two-fold: First, they hope to undermine the South-East Asian oil cartels in Sudan, (Sudanese oil production will reach half a million barrels per day at the beginning of next year.)
Second, to extend the oil pipeline from the Arabian Gulf through the Saudi port of Yanbu’ to the port city of ‘Arous in Sudan, and
through Darfur to Chad where it will link to the existing pipeline in Chad that goes to the Atlantic Ocean."

The proof: Powell's ballyhooed visit BEFORE the
election when Bush declared that genocide was INDEED
taking place was clearly a mere sop for the Christian Right which actually is concerned about the issue but with Bush back in the WH the "concern" evaporated.

This from "All Africa": "First, Secretary of State
Condoleezza Rice decides Darfur is not important
enough for her to visit, and then her Deputy goes to
Khartoum, clearly displaying U.S. willingness to
cooperate with the government of Sudan at the expense
of protecting the people of Darfur."
Africa Action notes that Zoellick is the first
senior-level U.S. official to travel to Sudan since
the U.S. declared last September that genocide was
taking place in Darfur.
http://allafrica.com/stories/200504150461.html

So don't expect Bush and Co. to do anything
constructive on this. Here is some background Darfur
... geographically isolated and neglected by central
government in Khartoum, have been adversely affected
by conflict since the early 1980s. The relatively
peaceful equilibrium between its ethnic groups has
been destroyed by environmental degradation - the
spread of the desert and the effects of the Sahel
drought - coupled with the divide-and-rule tactics of
central government and the influx of modern weaponry.
Members of the elites of the major ethnic groups are
engaged in a struggle for political status, and
failing to tackle the underlying problems of equitable
allocation of water and land. Meanwhile outside access
to the region is now so tightly controlled that
detailed information about the current plight of the
indigenous people is increasingly difficult to obtain.


Darfur was an independent sultanate until 1917, when
it was the last region to be incorporated into the
Anglo-Egyptian Sudan. The Arabic word Dar roughly
means homeland, and its population of nearly four
million is divided into several Dars; not only of the
Fur people, as its name suggests, but also of several
other communities, determined by livelihood as much as
ethnicity. These ecological and social distinctions
are more meaningful than the administrative divisions
imposed by government. Ethnicity is not in itself
clear-cut, given the long history of racial mixing
between indigenous "non-Arab" peoples and the "Arabs",
who are now distinguished by cultural-linguistic
attachment rather than race.

http://www.sudanupdate.org/REPORTS/PEOPLES/Darf.htm

Here is a summary of the political dynamics:
Sudan’s Lost Peace and the Crisis in Darfur Conference
Stichting Instituut voor Nieuwe Soedan (SINS)
Amsterdam, the Netherlands, March 27, 2004

“Between Naivasha & Abéché: The Systematic Destruction
of Darfur”
Ali B. Ali-Dinar, Ph.D, University of Pennsylvania

Introduction: Darfur shared borders with three
countries: Central African Republic, Chad, and Libya,
and covers 510, 888sq. km. representing one fifth of
the Sudan. Darfur in National & Regional Contexts
Darfur relation with eastern/riverain Sudan dates back
to 1785 by its annexation of Kordofan, which it lost
to Turco-Egyptian forces in 1821, which also ended the
independent Funj Sultanate, Darfur rival in Sudan.
Darfur came closer to riverain Sudanese orbit during
the Mahdist period (1882-1898), and with death of the
Mahdi, the Darfurian: Khalifa Abdullahi assumed power.
But his arrival witnessed first regional/ethnic
confrontation between awlad al bahar (people of the
Nile), and awlad al ghareb (people of the west), about
the legitimacy and eligibility rights of the Mahdi’s
successor. Darfur was only incorporated into the rest
of Anglo-Egyptian Sudan in 1916, while some parts of
its western frontier were only incorporated in 1923.

Due to lack of job employment, more Darfurians found
their way as laborers in central Sudan, and the army;
and on the reverse riverain Sudanese administrators,
military officers, doctors, judges, and merchants,
were comfortably stationed in Darfur. This uneven
bi-directional relationship has its implication on
both parties. With lack of services in the areas of
education, health, transport over the years, the
growing dissatisfaction has lead to establishment of
various ethnic groupings by mid 1960s, one of which
was DDF, whose leader was immediately absorbed by the
Umma party, and 1981 was appointed the Governor of
Darfur when Numeri was forced rescind a decree and
recognized Darfur as a separate region. Thus,
politically, Darfur is taken for granted as a closed
district for the Umma party to maintain dominance in
Sudanese politics, and now by the two factions of NIF.

It certainly DOES NOT mean we should be silent but understand the kind of sustained energy and momentum needed to alter the status quo.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

69. Right on, Frenchie

Thanks for reminding me why I'm here.

[Solly Mack]

70. kick

[Solly Mack]

74. kick back to the top

it's important...sign the damn thing :)

[Clarkie1]

75. Thanks Frenchie for providing these information and action links.

I will do everything I can...signing petitions, writing to senators, letters to the editor, etc. It is shameful that the MSM ignores this issue.

What we need is either strong leadership from the top-down (which we obviously are lacking), or massive grassroots movement from the botton-up in order for a change in policy to take place. Since we don't have a president, it's up to us. This is the most important post on DU since I've been here, because so many lives are at stake.

[Adelante]

76. Since we don't have a president, it's up to us.

If that ain't the friggin' ticket! :D

[ElsewheresDaughter]

77. Peace Under Fire - Sudan's Darfur Crisis - May 2004 video a MUST watch

scroll down and click on 'Peace Under fire"...:cry: :cry: :cry:

http://www.irinnews.org/film/default.asp

and

SUDAN: Thousands flee food shortages and Ugandan rebel attacks in the south

http://www.irinnews.org/frontpage.asp?SelectRegion=East_Africa

[judy from nj]

78. And Bush is turning the other way

It makes me so angry that the US isn't taking a lead on this issue. Furthermore it looks like Bush has decided that Sudan is so important to his anti-terrorist war that he is looking the other way.

[eridani]

79. All the troops that might go to Darfur are in Iraq n/t

[Adelante]

82. There are 70,000 troops in Germany alone

Out of 110,000 in Europe. They're not needed. They're not wanted. They can earn their pay on a humanitarian intervention. Why not?

[DulceDecorum]

156. Send them to Iraq. They have a Mission to Accomplish.

And how come when Europe doesn't want US soldiers,
you stand up and ask that the soldiers be removed?
When an AFRICAN COUNTRY says it doesn't want US soldiers,
you give us a whole lot of places to write to
so as to choke it down their throats.

The U.S. Proposal is a Far Cry from being the “African Alternative”
The U.S. proposal says that its tribunal would be “more appropriate” than referral to the ICC as it “takes full account of and reinforces” the African Union (AU) role in addressing the Darfur conflict. This is misleading and inaccurate.
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/02/15/sudan10179.htm

[neuvocat]

80. kick

[Hippo_Tron]

83. I'm fan of the Bartlett doctrine "Liberalism with a grenade launcher"

Those who watch the show know what I'm talking about and how it relates to this. Unfortunately, our President doesn't follow the Bartlett doctrine or anything close to it. His doctrine is: "we don't give two shits about your human rights record, just as long as you cooperate with us."

And yea, I'm outraged, I'm outraged because the US could end this problem in five minutes if our moron-in-chief actually gave a shit. I do speak out about chimp's hypocrisy and this is the perfect example of it.

[TroubleMan]

86. Nominated and kick

nt.

[Darranar]

89. This disgusting atrocity must end, and we must act to stop it. n/t

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Darranar]

103. Not a chance. Enlisting means fighting for imperialism...

and corporate profit.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FrenchieCat]

113. Who refused?

The dying pile of people or the government that's killing them?

So sad to see the potential of misinformation passed to us as though they are facts.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FrenchieCat]

119. Those are you words.

NOBODY WANTS THE US IN THE SUDAN.

You should cut the crap, and just say what you mean.... You don't want us in the Sudan.

You must take responsibility for your own words....which are not facts, they are just YOUR words. Try hard not to forget that. It's a pesky little detail, but it's the truth.

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FrenchieCat]

141. Hey.....Looks like a lot of Sudanese don't like what's happening....

http://www.sudantribune.com/article.php3?id_article=6571
The Sudan Human Rights Organization Cairo Office (SHRO-Cairo) seizes the opportunity of the United Nations Security Council meetings in Nairobi today (November 18, 2004) to urge the Council to support the Sudanese national efforts to establish the permanent and just peace and the regular democracy for the whole country on the basis of international human rights norms.

Their written plea submitted...
Appeal to the World on the Human Crisis of Darfur
The Undersigned appeal to the world, to the civil societies, the labor and trade unions, and all social forums and peoples' democracy, peace, and human rights organizations to join this Call to stop the human suffering of the Sudanese people in Darfur, Western Sudan. We hold the government of Sudan! fully responsible for the perpetration of the civilian atrocities in Darfur.

Aware of the tragic dimensions of the Darfur's Crisis, which amounts to state-led genocide as it has increasingly perished the lives of thous ands as well as the displacement of a million citizens seriously endangered with illness, starvation, and death, the Undersigned support the principles of inter national intervention for the creation of Peace Corridors in Darfur under the au spices and the ongoing monitoring of the United Nations and the African Union.

http://www.sudantribune.com/mot.php3?id_mot=80
Sudan's Darfur women weary of continuing war
Monday January 17th, 2005 13:52
KHARTOUM, Sudan, Jan 17, 2005 (PANA) -- A group representing women from Sudan's war-scarred western Darfur region has denounced the nearly two- year-old conflict, and called on the UN to act against those responsible for war crimes and human rights abuses in the region.
The fighting between the government troops and the rebel Sudan Liberation Movement (SLM) and the Justice and Equality Movement (JEM) in Darfur has claimed some 70,000 lives and left 1.6 million (...)

http://www.sudantribune.com/mot.php3?id_mot=52
Wife of Sudanese rights defender receives award from Irish president
Saturday May 14th, 2005 00:30
DUBLIN, May 13, 2005 (Front Line) -- The wife and young daughter of arrested Sudanese human rights defender, Dr Mudawi Ibrahim Adam received the inaugural Front Line Award from President McAleese in Dublin today.
Wife of Arrested Sudanese Human Rights Defender Receive Award from President Mary McAleese on his Behalf on Friday, May 13, 2005. (...)

Sudanese thwart Dublin ceremony
Friday May 13th, 2005 11:21
By Alison Healy, The Irish Times
DUBLIN, May 13, 2005 -- An award for a Sudanese human rights activist will be accepted by his wife and daughter in Dublin this morning, after he was arrested in Khartoum.
Dr Mudawi Ibrahim Adam was arrested on Sunday and charged yesterday with photographing military buildings and with crimes against Sudan.
He remains in police custody.
He was preparing to come to Dublin to receive the award from the President, Mrs McAleese, on (...)

Sudan rights activist arrested ahead of Irish award
Tuesday May 10th, 2005 11:41
By Irish Times
KHARTOUM, Sudan, May 10, 2005 -- A Sudanese human rights activist has been arrested hours before he was to depart for Ireland where he was to receive an award from President Mary McAleese.
Mudawi Ibrahim Adam was arrested in Khartoum on Sunday morning and is being held in detention offices in the north of the city, according to the Dublin-based human rights group Front Line, which sponsors the award.
He was arrested along with a colleague and driver (...)

Darfuris demand action after women raped
Sunday May 8th, 2005 00:03
By Opheera McDoom
ZAM ZAM CAMP, Sudan, May 7 (Reuters) - Darfuri Sumaya Hassan Mohamed was kidnapped, beaten, raped and then given money to go and buy soap to wash the blood off herself.
These Darfur refugee women are among many who have described how they were attacked and raped in their villages by roving gangs of Sudanese men. (...)

FEATURE-Sudan poses first big trial for ICC
Saturday April 30th, 2005 01:52
By MARLISE SIMONS, The New York Times
THE HAGUE, Apr 29, 2005 -- Almost three years after the International Criminal Court opened over United States opposition, the United Nations Security Council asked it to investigate atrocities in Sudan and, in the process, placed the court squarely in the international spotlight. By any measure, the request was an important vote of confidence in the new tribunal.
(...)

Sudan says view UN list of 51 Darfur war criminals as only a guide
Friday April 29th, 2005 06:30
By MOHAMED OSMAN
KHARTOUM, Sudan, Apr 28, 2005 (AP) -- Sudanese prosecutors will regard the U.N. list of 51 suspected pepetrators of Darfur atrocities as no more than a guide, the minister of justice has said, according to official media.
A man from Um Hashab village, North Darfur, gestures his burned hut, after Sudanese military bombarded the (...)

Sudan should try Darfur war crimes suspects - minister
Thursday April 28th, 2005 20:43
By Opheera McDoom
KHARTOUM, April 28 (Reuters) - Sudan should set up an independent court to try people accused of war crimes in the troubled region of Darfur, a senior official said on Thursday.
A special judge, sits in court in Nyala Sept 30, 2004 to try six Sudanese men accused of belonging to the Janjaweed, who killed 24 people in the (...)

Sudan's president reiterates pledge not hand over Darfur suspects to ICC
Thursday April 28th, 2005 12:50
KHARTOUM, Apr 28, 2005 (Sudan Tribune) -- Sudanese president and Leader of the ruling National Congress (NC) party Omar Hassan al-Bashir has reiterated his solemn pledge that no Sudanese national will ever be handed over for trial at a foreign court, the officail SUNA reported yesterday.
Sudanese President Umar al-Bashir gestures during his (...)


http://www.sudantribune.com/mot.php3?id_mot=26
UN says rape, violence on rise in Darfur
Friday May 13th, 2005 00:52
UNITED NATIONS, May 12 (AFP) -- Rape, kidnapping and attacks on civilians increased last month in Sudan's Darfur region despite a growing international effort to end the bloodshed, a senior UN official said.
Hedi Annabi, the deputy head of UN peacekeeping operations. (AFP).
Hedi Annabi, the deputy head of UN (...)

Darfuri says militias burn village as warning
Friday April 22nd, 2005 20:37
SEREAF, Sudan, April 22 (Reuters) - Arab militias burnt down a village in West Darfur state as a warning to its non-Arab residents not to return to their homes, a man from the village said on Friday.
A displaced Sudanese man looks at his destroyed house after militiamen burnt the Sereaf village, in west Darfur along the Sudan and Chad border, (...)

warns of new clashes in Darfur, says seven people killed
Wednesday April 20th, 2005 20:03
KHARTOUM, Sudan, Apr 20, 2005 (AP) -- Clashes between rebels and Arab militiamen in Darfur killed seven people over the past week, the U.N. said Wednesday, warning of possible new fighting as militias move to cut off rebel positions.
Sudan Liberation Army rebels speed through the desert east of El Fasher, the capital of North Darfur state (...)

b militias rampage unchecked in Darfur
Tuesday April 19th, 2005 11:59
OTASH CAMP, Sudan, April 19 (Reuters) - Arafa Abdullah Hadi hid for a week in a dry creek outside her Darfur village, fearing the Arab militiamen she saw shoot dead her two uncles and brother-in-law would come back.
Soldiers in a miltary unit calling themselves variously the Border Intelligence Division, Second Reconnaisance Brigade, or the Quick (...)

fears war-crimes suspects behind Sudan attacks
Tuesday April 19th, 2005 02:23
By Irwin Arieff
UNITED NATIONS, April 18 (Reuters) - Sudanese officials fearful of being tried for war crimes in Sudan's Darfur region may be behind a wave of attacks on international aid workers in the turbulent area, the United Nations said on Monday.
Internal displaced Sudanese sit on a vehicle with their belongings as they travel inside (...)

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kerrytravelers]

132. I have never read such angry posts... over what?

No one is asking you to stop the genocide in Darfur single-handedly. Just a donation if you can, but to sign a petition and write a couple of letters. All the info you need is provided by Frenchie.

Why all the anger? And why are you continually changing the subject? This is about how we can help Darfur, and I feel it is inapprocriate for anyone to tear down the passions and the determination of another DUer that is quite germaine to the situation of the world in whch we all share.

[Tom Rinaldo]

142. Yes. I love your button by the way. n/t

[DulceDecorum]

143. The fact remains

that
A) the US has previously bombed Sudan
B) NONE of the Sudanese people want US intervention
C) the African Union is diffusing the situation
D) the Bush administration has retreated for claiming "genocide" exists
E) petitioning the US Congress to intervene in direct violation of UN Resolutions is not an action taken by anyone who has ANY respect for international law.

[The Magistrate]

145. So In This Case, Mr. Decorum

Judging by your point D, you are quite satisfied to take the word of the Bush administration as definitive and factual?

What evidence do you have that the portion of the Sudanese people being slaughtered by their government do not wish for outside intervention in their assistance?

What relevance does the action of President Clinton some seven years ago have to the oprsent circumstance in Darfur?

[DulceDecorum]

151. I cannot answer.

I must remain silent.

[FrenchieCat]

146. For sure....your B) point is incorrect, please see my link

I've provided you with plenty of Sudanese begging that intervention occurs.

Please see my previous post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1786001&mesg_id=1788266

[DulceDecorum]

147. I COULD reply

but what is the use?

[FrenchieCat]

149. and your point

D) the Bush administration has retreated for claiming "genocide" exists

Doesn't matter to me the least. If Bush retreats from calling it genocide...than that must be exactly what it is.

NEXT!.....

[DulceDecorum]

152. Nice sig line.

Won't take any Sh*t, AND...will kick ass in Red States. Concerned about U.S. Foreign Policy and NEOCON BULLSHIT? Do something about it by joining WESpac here -----> http://www.securingamerica.com

[DulceDecorum]

150. RE: "angry posts."

Background:
http://context.themoscowtimes.com/story/142165/

United Nations Resolution 1590
Adopted by the Security Council at its 5151st meeting, on 24 March 2005

7. Emphasizes that there can be no military solution to the conflict in Darfur, and calls upon the Government of Sudan and the rebel groups, particularly the Justice and Equality Movement and the Sudanese Liberation Army/Movement to resume the Abuja talks rapidly without preconditions and negotiate in good faith to speedily reach agreement, and urges the parties to the Comprehensive Peace Agreement to play an active and constructive role in support of the Abuja talks and take immediate steps to support a peaceful settlement to the conflict in Darfur;

8. Calls upon all Member States to ensure the free, unhindered and expeditious movement to Sudan of all personnel, as well as equipment, provisions, supplies and other goods, including vehicles and spare parts, which are for the exclusive and official use of UNMIS;

9. Calls upon all parties to ensure, in accordance with relevant provisions of international law, the full, safe and unhindered access of relief personnel to all those in need and delivery of humanitarian assistance, in particular to internally displaced persons and refugees;
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/sudan/2005/pkgres1590.htm

Time for Action in Darfur
By Michael H. Michaud (Democrat)
May 16, 2005, 10:31
It is vital that the world put a stop to this. In Congress, there is a strong bill to help stop this genocide, called that Darfur Accountability Act. It would freeze the assets of the genocide's leaders and impose an internationally backed no-fly zone to stop the Sudan's Army from strafing villages. It also supports the expansion of the African Union force in Darfur, so that it can have the size and strength needed to prevent ongoing fighting and violence.
http://magic-city-news.com/article_3874.shtml

This Act may be cited as the `Darfur Accountability Act of 2005'.
(C) imposes sanctions or additional measures against the Government of Sudan, including sanctions that will affect the petroleum sector in Sudan, individual members of the Government of Sudan, and entities controlled or owned by officials of the government of Sudan or the National Congress Party in Sudan, that will remain in effect until such time as--

(i) humanitarian organizations are granted full, unimpeded access to Darfur;

(ii) the Government of Sudan cooperates with humanitarian relief efforts, carries out activities to demobilize and disarm Janjaweed militias and any other militias supported or created by the Government of Sudan, and cooperates fully with efforts to bring to justice the individuals responsible for genocide, war crimes, or crimes against humanity in Darfur;

(iii) the Government of Sudan cooperates fully with the African Union, the United Nations, and all other observer, monitoring, and protection missions mandated to operate in Sudan;

(iv) the Government of Sudan permits the safe and voluntary return of displaced persons and refugees to their homes and rebuilds the communities destroyed in the violence in Darfur; and

(v) the Sudan North-South Peace Agreement is fully implemented and a new coalition government is created under such Agreement;

(D) establishes a military no-fly zone in Darfur;

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:S.495:

Monday, 16 May, 2005, 11:32 GMT 12:32 UK
The item, with its reference to the mistreatment of the Koran, was spotted by someone on the Arabic-language television news channel al-Jazeera and broadcast as a news report.
Since then, there have been violent riots in at least six areas: Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt,Sudan, the Palestinian territories and Indonesia. A dozen or more people have died.
A spokesman for the Pentagon in Washington put the blame squarely on Newsweek. "People are dying," he said. "They are burning American flags. Our forces are in danger."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4551149.stm

[Blue_Tires]

95. ttt

[Nothing Without Hope]

153. KICK! n/t

[DulceDecorum]

154. The Power To Protect: Should It Be Exercised?

Another challenge, according to Lute, is the question of authority to use force. “Today, the political challenge is that there are only three conditions under which the use of force is legal:
Force is perceived as legitimate if you are attacked,
if you are asked,
or if you are otherwise allowed under Chapter VII of the UN Charter.
http://www.usip.org/newsmedia/releases/2003/0819_NBrefugees.html

The Attorney-General said that the desire for regime change was not a legal base for military action. There were three possible legal bases: self-defence, humanitarian intervention, or UNSC authorisation. The first and second could not be the base in this case. Relying on UNSCR 1205 of three years ago would be difficult. The situation might of course change.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1593607,00.html

In American politics and advertising, the term astroturfing pejoratively describes formal public relations projects which deliberately seek to engineer the impression of spontaneous public reactions to a politician or political grouping, product, service, event, etc. by many diverse and distributed individuals acting of their own volition, when in fact the efforts are centrally coordinated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing

FrenchieCat says:
Just finished watching "Hotel Rwanda" for the 2nd time.
The star of the movie addresses us, the audience, after the film, and states that what happened in Rwanda is happening in Darfur.

Don Cheadle is an ACTOR.
He is PAID to say lines.
BUSHCO is KNOWN to spend MILLIONS on propaganda.
THOSE are all FACTS.

Cheadle said he never thought of himself as an "actorvist" until Congressman Ed Royce, R-Orange County, approached him after a screening of his movie "Hotel Rwanda," which is about the Rwandan Genocide. Cheadle's involvement quickly snowballed, and Cheadle soon found himself a leading activist for action in the Darfur region.
http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/news/articles.asp?id=32291

Royce Rejects U.N. Finding on Darfur
Washington, Feb 1 - Today, Chairman of the House Subcommittee on Africa U.S. Rep. Ed Royce (R-CA-40) challenged the key finding of a United Nations commission investigating the atrocities in the Darfur region of Sudan. The U.N. report released yesterday said that genocide was not occurring in Darfur. This is contrary to the House resolution passed in July, which took the UNPRECEDENTED step of declaring the killing in Darfur to be genocide.
http://www.royce.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=22002

Resolution 1590 (2005)
Adopted by the Security Council at its 5151st meeting, on 24 March 2005
7. Emphasizes that there can be no military solution to the conflict in Darfur,....
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/sudan/2005/pkgres1590.htm

As you can see,
the US Representative from the 40th District of California,
knows more about Darfur than
well,
EVERYBODY ACTUALLY INVOLVED.

There is NO LEGAL JUSTIFICATION WHATSOEVER for ANY US-led use of force.
We, the people of the Democratic Underground,
are being shnookered.

(New York, March 7, 2005) – After its meeting today with U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, the Security Council should take urgent steps to protect civilians in Darfur and refer the situation to the International Criminal Court, Human Rights Watch said. Meanwhile, the United States has proposed a 45-day delay in taking a decision on justice for Darfur’s victims.
<snip>
On January 25, 2005, a U.N. Commission of Inquiry for Darfur strongly recommended that the Security Council refer the situation to the ICC to hold accountable those most responsible for atrocities in Darfur. Although the U.S. government has publicly called the crimes in Darfur “genocide” and indeed sponsored the resolution that created the U.N. Commission of Inquiry, it has ignored the commission’s findings that the ICC is the “single best mechanism” and “only credible way” to ensure justice is done.
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/07/sudan10268.htm

[Tom Rinaldo]

157. It revolves around genocide, doesn't it?

Is it or is it not happening in the Sudan? What must always be considered is that all governments, and the United Nations which is after all made up of representatives from governments, have multiple agendas to pursue. Many have dirty laundry of their own to obscure. Many have priorities that they do not want re shuffled, alliances they don't want strained, business contracts that they do not want threatened.

In hindsight do you believe that Genocide happened in Rwanda? The United Nations pussy footed around Rwanda at the time, and the United States government was among the worst at intentionally framing events in Rwanda in a manner least likely to trigger calls for American participation in an international effort to save lives there.

You raise some legitimate points for discussion but I can not take you seriously if you are proposing that BushCo is pushing an astro turf campaign to rile up people about the Sudan. Bush wants war with Syria and Iran. The Sudan is way down on his list for possible conquests. Bush as you may remember, did everything possible to minimize American participation in the peace keeping effort in Liberia, which was hard to avoid completely because of Liberia's historic ties to the United States. Why? Because the strains on our military are already feeding dissent at home against his Mid East wars priority.

As to whether or not there is a legal basis for intervention in the Sudan, that is the type of thing that endlessly gets argued of course. My point to you is that there is no fully recognized "Supreme Court" of the world that can settle legal and moral questions free from narrow political pressures exerted by various States with one or another vested interest in the outcome. Any student of the United Nations quickly understands that the resolutions that emerge from the Security Council are the result of highly political negotiations and compromises. None the less there is a long established and growing body of international law that deals with the issue of "Crimes Against Humanity". Here is one interesting link to a discussion on that:
http://justworldnews.org/archives/Notes%20on%20the%20development%20of%20international%20atrocities%20law.htm

But there are discussions on this taking place constantly. The bottom line is that everyone acknowledges that sometimes the world has a responsibility to step in and stop atrocities that are occurring locally, but the devil is always in the details, and in mobilizing the political will to acknowledge that responsibility.

[DulceDecorum]

158. RE: BushCo is pushing an astroturf campaign about the Sudan.

http://mediafilter.org/CAQ/CAQ52Rw2t.html

(US) Ambassador Rawson stayed in Rwanda for ten days after the genocide was first unleashed, before returning to Washington. It was only on April 28-a full three weeks into the slaughter- that he officially declared a "state of disaster." Then he characterized the genocide as tribal killings-exactly the description the killers wanted as a smokescreen for their program of extermination. Had he or any other official invoked the word "genocide," all nations who were signatories of the 1948 convention on genocide would have been obligated by the terms of that treaty to condemn the slaughter and act to stop it.
http://mediafilter.org/CAQ/CAQ52Rw4.html

all nations who were signatories of the 1948 convention on genocide would have been obligated by the terms of that treaty to condemn the slaughter and act to stop it.

all nations who were signatories of the 1948 convention on genocide would have been obligated by the terms of that treaty to condemn the slaughter and act to stop it.

Article 4
Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.
http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html

Sunday October 3, 2004
American warnings that Darfur is heading for an apocalyptic humanitarian catastrophe have been widely exaggerated by administration officials, it is alleged by international aid workers in Sudan. Washington's desire for a regime change in Khartoum has biased their reports, it is claimed.
The government's aid agency, USAID, says that between 350,000 and a million people could die in Darfur by the end of the year. Other officials, including Secretary of State Colin Powell, have accused the Sudanese government of presiding over a 'genocide' that could rival those in Bosnia and Rwanda.
But the account has been comprehensively challenged by eyewitness reports from aid workers and by a new food survey of the region. The nutritional survey of Sudan's Darfur region, by the UN World Food Programme, says that although there are still high levels of malnutrition among under-fives in some areas, the crisis is being brought under control.
'It's not disastrous,' said one of those involved in the WFP survey, 'although it certainly was a disaster earlier this year, and if humanitarian assistance declines, this will have very serious negative consequences.'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sudan/story/0,14658,1318643,00.html

Posted Thursday, Aug. 5, 2004, at 3:27 PM PT
While the U.S. Congress declared the mass killing of civilians in Darfur to be genocide, the White House has studiously avoided the word, since using it, according to the 1948 U.N. Convention on Genocide, would require the United States to intervene. Evangelical Christian leaders have urged Washington to act forcefully,
http://slate.msn.com/id/2104814/

Christianity Today has an article about the genocide taking place in Darfur and what the churches can do to help. It points out not enough attention has been paid to the genocide going on there and it is time for the U.N.,the U.S. and other peace activists to talk less and act more.
http://ohhowilovejesus.com/index.php/2005/04/26/the-darfur-genocide/

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/letters/la-le-darfur16.1may16,0,2680344.story?coll=la-news-comment-letters

Hotel Sudan Isn't a Film—Yet
Christianity Today, May 2005
For Christians, the time for rapid response has arrived. "Islamists in Sudan have not given up their jihad-in-Africa campaign," says Faith McDonnell, director of the Church Alliance for a New Sudan, based in Washington, D.C. "Are we willing to get in there and help southern Sudan? To build schools, churches, hospitals, roads? Are we willing to help train pastors? Will we force the cessation of genocide in Sudan?"
The Sudan Council of Churches USA, based in Overland Park, Kansas, has 38 member congregations that are stepping up to the task of rebuilding. Recently, they said, "We believe God is calling us to reach out to our former persecutors in love, forgiveness, and mercy." These Sudanese church leaders also have rallied Americans to their cause because they see themselves as missionaries to America, not just refugees from Africa.
In November, they helped to lead a missions team to a refugee camp in Chad. This outreach was an important moment of Muslim-Christian reconciliation because the Khartoum government practiced "using a slave to kill a slave." That means Muslim soldiers from Darfur were conscripted to kill southern Sudanese.
Advocacy is also important. American evangelicals are in a rare position to be listened to, not just heard, in Washington and the United Nations. One goal for evangelicals is to bring political priorities closer to biblical values. International relief groups know firsthand that when American evangelicals speak with one voice, policymakers in Washington pay attention. And high-level pressure gets results overseas.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/005/21.26.html

# IRD's Religious Liberty Program spotlights the persecution of Christians in repressive countries like China, Cuba, Iran, and Sudan; gaining media attention for the persecuted and arousing international pressure against repressive governments. We believe that all people have a God given, inherent right to practice their faith freely, including the right to share their faith. We are two emphases that spotlight particular areas of persecution and repression: the Church Alliance for a New Sudan (CANS) and the Liberty Initiative for North Korea (LINK).
# Within the United States, we see the breakdown of marriage and family as a major threat to sustaining our own democracy. We are beginning a program entitled “Defending Marriage is Social Justice” and will be working to see that our churches fulfill their proper role in defending marriage.
# The IRD is committed to working through coalitions. In particular, we work with renewal groups within a number of denominations throughout North America in the Association for Church Renewal.
# Finally, we also publish Faith and Freedom. The 16-page newsletter covers critical issues facing American churches today and gives an insider's look at trends within our churches. It’s “must reading” for informed church members.
http://www.ird-renew.org/site/pp.asp?c=fvKVLfMVIsG&b=308891

Never has there been a greater need for strong churches, as a crucial component of civil society. America and the world require a fresh impetus of Christian evangelization, transforming both individuals and cultures. Yet tragically, important segments of the American church are spiraling into deep decline as they retreat from this task. Particularly in the historic “mainline” Protestant denominations, but also in other churches, many leaders and institutions have lost their focus on the Gospel, the basis of their existence. They have turned toward political agendas mandated neither by Scripture nor by Christian tradition. They have thrown themselves into multiple, often leftist crusades – radical forms of feminism, environmentalism, pacifism, multi-culturalism, revolutionary socialism, sexual liberation and so forth.
<snip>
Churches re-rooted in the Gospel will bring to bear the great Christian teachings that shape public life. They will fortify civil society against the trends that are eroding it. Such churches will contest all attempts to relegate religious and moral truths to the realm of the purely personal and private. They will teach and demonstrate personal and social responsibility. They will offer their own contributions to addressing social problems, rather than demanding that the state act alone. In particular, such churches will find practical ways to strengthen the vital institution of marriage.
http://www.ird-renew.org/site/pp.asp?c=fvKVLfMVIsG&b=356299

[Tom Rinaldo]

163. A quick few points.

First, as unfortunate as the reality may be, all Christian Right initiatives, even ones that Bush strongly supports, can't be dismissed as being astroturf. The left is not the only side that has grass roots. Yes their roots get fed a rich diet of all the latest petroleum based fertilizers to speed their growth, but that is not the exact same thing as astro turf. True astro turf is when a group of paid staff create one or more fake grass roots organizations and generate boiler plate "grass roots" letters, petitions, emails etc. The N.R.A., for example, would not qualify as being astro turf any more than Move On would. They are just on the other side of an important issue far as I'm concerned, with good organizational skills and competent staffing.

Why do I make that point? Well for one thing I can be a stickler for accuracy, but that isn't all of it. As soon as you have real people involved, you deal with varied motives for involvement. We know for example that Israel organized to get Jews safely out of Ethiopia when famine and war stalked that nation. That was based on a strong sense of kinship that for the most part transcended ideological lines in Israel. Is it surprising that some American Christian Churches are advocating for African Christians who by most accounts have been, along with animists, at the receiving end for most of the violence in the Sudan? Well I'm not surprised, but I won't flatten what is essentially a Chicken Egg circle into a linear line for short hand political reasons. Bush has a political alliance with the Christian Right, true. But that does not flow in one direction only. They do not solely exist to fall in behind Bush's agenda, nor the opposite really either. Each side has ownership of their own agenda. They have converging interests but that does not make them identical forces.

Expanding on that, it is possible for some Christians to mobilize about the plight of people in the Sudan without neatly being fit into the Christian Right. And it is possible for some in the Christian Right to mobilize on behalf of non Christians, as in the case of the Tsunami victims for example. And it is possible for Christians and non Christians, believers and non believers alike, to mobilize for people across religious lines. I supported intervention to save predominantly Muslim lives in Bosnia, and I support intervention to save predominantly Christian lives in the Sudan, for example.

The world rarely fits simplistic formulas. People of vastly different world views, with often clashing beliefs, can find themselves aligned together on this or that specific issue for reasons specific to that issue. I will not be guided by a knee jerk reality that implores me to take a certain position on an issue of importance to me simply because some one can point out to me that some people who I frequently disagree with have taken the opposite position. I do not care whether people are Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or Jews when genocide is occurring. I oppose it. Yes some people are more selective in their outrage, only caring when it is those who they identify who are being slaughtered. There are some of those on every side of every issue. It is inevitable that I will seem on the same side with this or that let's say "partisan" group when it comes to their selective concern about genocide in a specific case. That is not a reason for me not to care, regardless of what their motives might be.

One of the several accounts that you quote, dated October 3, 2004, states in part:

"The nutritional survey of Sudan's Darfur region, by the UN World Food Programme, says that although there are still high levels of malnutrition among under-fives in some areas, the crisis is being brought under control.

'It's not disastrous,' said one of those involved in the WFP survey, 'although it certainly was a disaster earlier this year, and if humanitarian assistance declines, this will have very serious negative consequences."

That could be seen as a description of intermittent conditions for genocide. Maybe more urgent international action in January of 2004 could have saved 100,000 or more lives. Maybe since October 2004 conditions have declined with "very serious negative consequences".

It is clear to me that the Bush Administration is currently resisting involvement in the Sudan, probably for the reasons that WesDem spoke of above. There are from time to time clashes of conflicting priorities within the the ruling Right Wing Republican Coalition. You don't really believe for a minute that the Business Roundtable Fortune 400 type Republican power brokers are driven by religious zeal in pushing the Administration to prioritize privatization of Social Security, do you?

[The Magistrate]

167. For The Record, Mr. Decorum

Are you here accusing those members of Democratic Underground who wish to see some action taken to end the murders carried out by the Sudanese government in Darfur of being dupes of, or collaborators with, the current regime in our country?

[DulceDecorum]

177. You know very well

that I cannot reply to you except to say
that I cannot reply.

[JRob]

160. This issue and others ! ! ! We need to gain control over our GOV !

Darfur is horrific!!! It needs to be stopped! However we need to unite this country and truly direct our government to focus on what is really important. Our Gov. doesn't give a shit about these people. The "powers that be" regardless from where they sit have shown again and again that they will do anything to achieve an end... And it's almost always about $$$. Look at what the US Gov. did to the American Indians...

True change has always started with the people!

[Adelante]

161. 35 or so deleted posts and no end in sight

Mass murder, gang rape, child sex slaves, teenaged killers, starving and homeless thousands, burned villages, bombed villages -- sanctioned by our OWN government for the sake of its allied killer regime in Khartoum and their joint plans for oil exploration.

It's all good, right?

DD, you're on Bush's side in this. I hope you're proud of yourself, but I don't know how you can live with yourself.

But then I'm on the other side -- international humanitarian intervention when it is needed to save lives, every time.

[Grooner Five]

162. Bush and DD are also on the UN's side here

Their determination: no genocide

It does appear that the Muslim faction in the UN wants no "Anglo" intervention in the Sudan.

If Sudan told Canada to go to hell (unless they want to send some money, of course), then why would they want us there?

[FrenchieCat]

164. But the question remains unanswered....

not this question....If Sudan told Canada to go to hell (unless they want to send some money, of course), then why would they want us there?

But this one: When Sudan told Canada to go to hell, who was doing the speaking? The people of the Sudan who are being starved to death....or those representing the Sudan Government? I ask, because it makes a difference as to who is declining intervention.

Please elaborate as to whom, in particular, is rejecting the aid.

Thanks.

[Grooner Five]

165. Clearly, the people in the streets are not...

...sending diplomatic communiques. But enough people surely support this government to turn any military intervention in to a quagmire that makes Iraq look tame. Multiply Somalia by 1000, and that's what we'd be looking at in Sudan. Al Qaeda and other jihadists would send in suicide bombers by the hundreds, and could easily recruit fighters among the street thugs. One also must take in to account that Sudan is virtually the size of Western Europe (Spain France, Germany & Italy), with extremely limited roads and infrastructure.

Remember Somalia? We were trying to feed those folks and stop the killing there, but it didn't really work out for anyone, least of all the Somalis.

I'm all for helping starving people, but only if the "help" doesn't make things much, much worse.

[FrenchieCat]

166. Agreed that a mission undertaken would have to be done

correctly and in a very "international" fashion.

Knowing this administration.....who most likely will never let it happen, if by some miracle did do something.....they would fuck it up royaly. That, I do, unfortunately believe.

That's the sad part and the double edged sword.

[Grooner Five]

168. I don't blame the US (or even Bush) for this one

IMO, the only faction that could safely clean up Darfur would be a conglomeration of African Muslim states. The Islamists in the Sudan wouldn't be any more receptive to the French, Germans, or Swedes than they are to us. All they want from us is money, and then to "stay our asses home:"

http://splmtoday.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1165

Darfur

KHARTOUM, April 7 (AFP) - Sudan rejected Thursday UN chief Kofi
Annan`s calls for international intervention in the war-torn western
region of Darfur, insisting it was taking its own steps to rein in
government-sponored militias accused of a wave of atrocities.

"We are not in need of foreign forces in Darfur," said Foreign
Minister Mustafa Ismail.

"All we want from the international community is more
humanitarian aid in addition to the government`s commitment," he
said.

In a speech Wednesday marking the 10th anniversary of the
Rwandan genocide, Annan called on the international community to
consider military intervention in Darfur if Sudan continues to deny
access to the region where at least 10,000 people have died in
fighting over the past year, according to UN figures.



http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/africa/05/17/libya.darfur.ap/

TRIPOLI, Libya (AP) -- Seven African leaders meeting in the Libyan capital rejected Tuesday any intervention by a non-African nation in Sudan's western Darfur region, and authorized Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi to carry on trying to get conflicting parties to reach a settlement.

In a statement issued at the end of the two-day meeting, leaders of Egypt, Libya, Chad, Nigeria, Sudan, Gabon and Eritrea decided to "reject any foreign intervention in the Darfur problem and dealing with it should be through its African framework."

The summit on Darfur was originally due to be held in Egypt but the venue was moved to Tripoli, where Gadhafi hosted Darfur rebel and local leaders last week.

Eritrean President Isaias Afwerki, invited to the summit by Gadhafi, met with Sudanese President Omar el-Bashir on Monday in what the official Libyan news agency described as a step toward a "historic reconciliation." The two countries had accused each other of sheltering rebels their different territories

/snip

[FrenchieCat]

169. But I can only remind you...it's not a question of blame

but a question of doing something that will directly help those who need it.

It is not a question of who will ...but a question of when will.

It is not a question of why, but a question of how.

I will continue to advocate for assistance of anykind to help those who need it.

Sitting on my hands, and stating that it's someone else's responsibility is easy....but it just won't do.

[Grooner Five]

170. I commend you for that

The more folks that raise a stink about this grisly situation, the better it will be for the folks who are suffering. It's such a human tragedy that geopolitics always seem to get in the way of what's best for the people.

[FrenchieCat]

171. Amen!

[DulceDecorum]

183. Can the grown adults of Dafur be permitted

to decide for themselves
what they do and do NOT want?

They are in contact with the African Union.
They are willing to work with the African Union.
They have asked for help from the African Union.

They want everyone else to leave them alone.
Please respect that decision.

[DulceDecorum]

182. If you really truly want to DO something

hit the arms traders whose wares are causing strife WORLDWIDE.

In terms of global deliveries, the United States reached $13.65 billion, with the United Kingdom in the second spot with $4.7 billion worth of arms deliveries in 2003. This means that the United States and the United Kingdom accounted for almost two-thirds of the value of global arms delivered last year. Russia came in third with $3.4 billion.<10>
Between 1996 and 2003, the United States, the United Kingdom, Russia, France and Germany have dominated international supplies of conventional weapons (by value of deliveries), responsible collectively for 84 percent of global arms transfer deliveries.11]
In the same period, the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council were also the top five suppliers of conventional weapons (by value of agreements) to developing countries. The United States, Russia, France, China and the United Kingdom were responsible for a total of $118.1 billion worth of arms transfer agreements to developing countries from 1996 to 2003.<12>
http://www.basicint.org/pubs/Notes/BN040917.htm

9/30/2004 4:30:00 PM GMT
The American embassy in Sudan didn’t comment on Bashir’s remarks.
http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=5017

The US does not recognise the ICC, which it fears could be used for politically motivated prosecutions of US soldiers and diplomats.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4227835.stm

[DulceDecorum]

181. RE: helping starving people

January 18, 1993
Officially, the Administration and the State Department insist that the U.S. military mission in Somalia is strictly humanitarian. Oil industry spokesmen dismissed as "absurd" and "nonsense" allegations by aid experts, veteran East Africa analysts and several prominent Somalis that President Bush, a former Texas oilman, was moved to act in Somalia, at least in part, by the U.S. corporate oil stake.

But corporate and scientific documents disclosed that the American companies are well positioned to pursue Somalia's most promising potential oil reserves the moment the nation is pacified. And the State Department and U.S. military officials acknowledge that one of those oil companies has done more than simply sit back and hope for pece.

Conoco Inc., the only major multinational corporation to mantain a functioning office in Mogadishu throughout the past two years of nationwide anarchy, has been directly involved in the U.S. government's role in the U.N.-sponsored humanitarian military effort.

Conoco, whose tireless exploration efforts in north-central Somalia reportedly had yielded the most encouraging prospects just before Siad Barre's fall, permitted its Mogadishu corporate compound to be transformed into a de facto American embassy a few days before the U.S. Marines landed in the capital, with Bush's special envoy using it as his temporary headquarters. In addition, the president of the company's subsidiary in Somalia won high official praise for serving as the government's volunteer "facilitator" during the months before and during the U.S. intervention.

Describing the arrangement as "a business relationship," an official spokesman for the Houston-based parent corporation of Conoco Somalia Ltd. said the U.S. government was paying rental for its use of the compound, and he insisted that Conoco was proud of resident general manager Raymond Marchand's contribution to the U.S.-led humanitarian effort.
http://www.netnomad.com/fineman.html

Remind me again,
what is the reason that we are being given for the US military to invade Sudan?

HUMANITARIAN REASONS?

The Attorney-General said that the desire for regime change was not a legal base for military action. There were three possible legal bases: self-defence, humanitarian intervention, or UNSC authorisation.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1593607,00.html

[DulceDecorum]

180. To WHOM did Canada make the offer?

Because those are the ones to told Canada to get lost.

Canada Can't Shake Somali Scandal;
New Military Chief Quizzed on Troops' 1993 Torture-Killing
http://www.netnomad.com/canada.html

Thursday, July 3, 1997; Page A22
Canadian peacekeeping troops in Somalia were "victimized" by commanders who sent them into the field unprepared and ignored problems developing in an airborne regiment until they escalated into the torture and killing of a Somali teenager, a commission established to review the country's troubled 1992-93 African mission has concluded.
Far from being the fault of "a few bad apples," the events in Somalia reflected "systemic, organizational and leadership failures" in the command structure of the Canadian Defense Forces, the commission's chairman, Justice Gilles Letourneau, said today during an Ottawa news conference at which the study was released.
http://www.wpni.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/canada/stories/somalia07397.htm

[Adelante]

176. Mukesh Kapila, former UN Humanitarian Coordinator for Sudan

“The only difference between Rwanda and Darfur is the numbers involved of dead, tortured, and raped,” Kapila said at the final press conference he gave before leaving his post. He told the BBC, “This is ethnic cleansing, this is the world’s greatest humanitarian crisis, and I don’t know why the world is not doing more about it.”

He said this over a year ago.

The UN has as much blood on its hands as the Sudan government.

[DulceDecorum]

179. Well, since you brought it up,

I consider this thread to be a personal best.
I will be hard pressed to top this record.

I actually know people from the Sudan
and NOT those crapheads that the Rendon Group totes out.
Every post that was deleted contained a short simple message
FROM THEM.

Sudan has had its share of problems
and this particular phase began when certain oil companies began prospecting for oil in that region.
Look at what US "humanitarian" intervention has done for neighboring Somalia.

There are ONLY TWO nations in the world that are members of the UN and have NOT ratified the UN Declaration of the Rights of the Child.
The first one is the US -- which insists on recruiting children under 17 to send off to war and the other is Somalia -- whose goverment was destroyed by the US.
Somalia cannot ratify the document BECAUSE THEY DO NOT HAVE A GOVERNMENT.
On behalf of the children of Somalia, I would like to thank all those who insist upon foisting US intervention into Africa.


So-called "peacekeepers" roast a Somali child over an open fire.
Later they claim it was "a joke."

It was around this time, in 1993, that David Rawson, after a stint in Somalia (1986-88), became U.S. ambassador to Rwanda. He was no stranger to U.S. complicity in slaughter or to the region itself. In 1988, when he was deputy chief of mission in Somalia, the U.S. delivered $1.4 million worth of arms to the dictator, Siad Barre. The June 28, 1988 shipment, part of broad U.S. support for the regime, arrived precisely at the time Barre's army was waging indiscriminate warfare against the Issac clan family. Barre used the weapons in the early summer campaign in which 10,000 were killed, a half million were made refugees (out of a population of 1.5 million), and two cities leveled. So Rawson, from his post at the U.S. embassy, could be deemed something of an expert on crimes against humanity.
http://mediafilter.org/CAQ/CAQ52Rw2t.html

[neuvocat]

172. kick

[Nikki Stone 1]

173. Frenchie, I'm with you on regular people doing what they can, but

I don't think "US intervention" has any credibility left, at least not while this bunch is in the White House with their shiny new policy of "pre-emptive" war, i.e., "invasion on flimsy pretexts". Who the hell would buy a moral explanation for US troops in the Sudan after what this administration has done in Iraq?


I support any and all petition signing and sending money to international agencies to help, and even some religious agencies, especially if you know the people behind these groups and their goals. I would support the Red Cross, Doctors without Borders, Catholic Charities (if they were involved), and the like. I would not support Franklin Graham (Billy Graham's son) who has made it clear that he wants to convert the Muslim world, and, I suppose, make a name for himself to boot.

But, when it comes to US intervention, I think we've lost our credibility thanks to (at least) Iraq. And with Bolton at the UN--if that goes through as predicted--the UN may soon lose whatever credibility it has, depending on how quickly Bolton monkey-wrenches certain target commissions.

I actually find myself agreeing--as much as I wish I didn't--with the "astroturf" theory. I have been reading a lot about Africa in the past couple of years and it seems that West Africa is the next big oil region to be hit after the Middle East. I just get this feeling that the genocide in Sudan will remain on the back burner--stoked by occasional liberals and activists--until a US administration is actually ready to go in there. It reminds me so much of the Afghan women. During the 1990s, feminist groups were talking about the Afghan women and the horrible treatment they received at the hands of the Taliban. Our government did very little about it. I also remember, in the late 90's, the TV show, "Seventh Heaven" (a Christian based show) did an episode where the mother of the family became worried about the Afghan women. Little stuff, back burner stuff.

Then, on 9/11, it all became front burner. Suddenly, we were going to war to "get Bin Laden" and to "save the Afghan women". Interestingly, neither one of these proported goals has been accomplished. Afghan women are in a worse way than ever, and we know that Bin Laden (or Binladin) was not apprehended.

I don't want to believe that Darfur is another one of these, but I just have a gut feeling that Darfur will remain backburner until it is necessary to galvanize the American people to support yet another war.

All the same, I think we should do what we can, because despite how it might be used politically, a genocide is something that should always be fought with everything we've got.

[FrenchieCat]

175. Sadly true,

that anything this administration would propose would have an ulterior, nefarious dual purpose.

That's what happens when you have a government that can't ever do the right thing....or do anything right.

[Name removed]

178. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mhr]

174. What Would You Have Us Do?

Moral outrage is in short supply.

In fact, I'd say it is all gone.

When our protests are not covered by the news,
When our letters to the editor rarely get published,
When our queries to politicians are not answered,
What more is left?

Taking to the streets?

Maybe, but most here are too old for that.

Sadly there is not much we can do.

[Moderator]

184. locking, this thread has turned into a flame war and is off topic

in many ways. The topic of Dafur is certainly of concern and worthy of discussion but this thread is not productive.