What' s behind all of Kos's attacks on Kerry?

[second edition]

Did someone put him up to it? I want to know. I realize he is a Dean supporter,and I am trying to remain level headed over Kos's recent bashing. I have decided to give to the DLC/Dean grassroots effort on a monthly basis because I like the effort and because I am hoping Kerry will be given another change to run again.I am now having doubts about my contribution. I am concerned that perhaps, Kos's conveniently timed attacks are designed to discourage Kerry and his supporters from pushing for a second run and may be coordinated on behalf of Dean operatives. I don't even want to think Dean may be behind any of this. Dean needs to come out and make a statement discouraging kos's Kerry attacks. IMO it looks bad because Kos worked for Dean during the primaries and was paid for his services.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

1. Oh interesting conspiracy theory.

You must have the power to enter kos's mind. Damn dawg I want that power. I pay you 5 bucks if you tell me how you do it.

[democracyindanger]

2. Uh, his honest opinion?

Why not float this theory at dKos? You know, ask the man directly.

[LittleClarkie]

5. I actually did something like that yesterday

except I told him to get over the primaries. I'm not concerned by whether or not he's being paid to expouse his opinions. I'm more concerned that he grow the fuck up.

[second edition]

8. Can't get on the site.

And I am more interested in what Dean would have to say about this. I already know what Kos will say, you don't have to be a mind reader to figure that out.

[democracyindanger]

14. You'd expect a different response from Dean?

If Dean or his "operatives" were paying or encouraging Kos to attack Kerry, you think they'd admit it to you?

2008 is a long way off. Two posts in one week, three years before the next presidential primary, is hardly "convenient timing."

Disclaimer: I don't give a rat's ass who may or may not run in '08, because, well, it's pointless to start wringing our hands about it now. We've got Congressional races to think about, people.

[second edition]

29. Well, as DLC chairmain he shouldn't want to have our party split

into factions like this, especially now. IMO Kos's actions do no good for our party. They only divide us. I don't want my hard earned money given to a party in shambles. We all know how Kos feels about John Kerry, he actualy should have nothing more to say on the subject of John Kerry. My advise to Kos, retire your misplaced anger.

[democracyindanger]

42. Well, I certainly expect that somebody complaining would know the diff-

erence between the DLC and the DNC.

[Tom Rinaldo]

61. I have a healthy concern for Party Unity but...

I don't think Dean or anyone else has the power to impose it. Lots of people worked for one or another Democrat at one time or another, that doesn't make them permanent agents for that Democrat. I can understand taking issue with Kos's comments, but that is where the conflict lies, with Kos. We have way too many intra Democratic conspiracy theories to sort through as it is. Dean, like everyone else, is innocent until proved guilty of being behind it. Further, no Democratic leader, or past or future candidate, has a whole lot of power over what some people who might support them might say on a blog unless that person is actually on their pay roll. The Kos comment was subjective by nature, on the money or off the mark however you might view it. Unless specific objective lies about Kerry are being said it is unrealistic to expect a call for those comments to be censored or retracted. That doesn't mean that you can't argue like Hell against them.

[LittleClarkie]

3. Kos appears to deny that is his motivation

I don't know what to think myself. But it also appears that Dean is far enough away from the events of the primary season that I doubt we will hear a peep out of him. Hell, folks have been calling for him to make a myriad of statements, and pretty much we've been getting quietude. That's fine. I don't want him distracted from his grassroots building.

As for Kos, I found it ludicrous that blasted Kerry for his GLBT stance, standing up for that interest group, then the next day he's dissing the pro-choice crowd for not helping to unseat Chafee. Struck me as hypocritical it did. Why should one group's interests be higher than another.

I've been witness to some very petty policking from more than one group of folks recently. Alot of it would be more appropriate to a grade school playground. Let's just say I like the men involved infinitely better than their supporters. And no, I'm not talking about events here at DU.

I agree with you both that Kos is making an ass of himself, and that I to would love to see Kerry get another nod. But I'd like to think it wouldn't matter who Kos was attacking unnecessarily, that I'd feel the same regardless.

All that said, it's disheartening to see such ridiculously childish crap going on, esp. considering how far away the next presidential election is. It has the effect of tearing the party apart and dividing us all just when we REALLY need to be united.

As for me, I will continue to defend Kerry when he needs it, Dean when he needs it, as well as Clark or anyone else being misrepresented.

[AlGore-08.com]

17. Isn't it possible that KOS thinks Kerry's stance on GLBT isn't good enough

And he thinks that, with the GOP having a 55-45 advantage in the Senate, and controlling the House, and controlling the Executive, and stacking the courts, getting more Democrats in the Senate is more important than certain hot button issues which are obviously not KOS's hot button issues?

Kerry is already running for President, and he has a safe seat, and he is not coming up for re-election this cycle.

Finally, if any potential Dem nominee's chances for the 2008 nomination are so shaky that a couple Daily KOS rants can derail him/her, then that person needs to drop out now...

[LittleClarkie]

18. Well, I don't think Kos' stance on pro-choice is good enough

And I didn't say Kos could derail Kerry. But if Kos is wrong, I'm going to say so, regardless of how important I think the little shmuck's contribution is.

I don't care what Kos' hot button issue's are. Railing against Kerry based on one group's interests, and then tossing aside another group's interests because he doesn't think they're important enough is awfully arrogant of him.

But then, perhaps I shouldn't worry for the pro-choicers. They're probably strong enough to withstand Kos. And I can say for sure that Kos isn't going to derail the Kerry supporters. He's just making himself irrelevant by carrying on a primary vandetta, like, as Dr. Ron said, some Japanese soldier on a remote island who didn't get the word the war was over.

[David Dunham]

4. I think a lot of Deaniacs, like Kos, want to take down Kerry.

They refuse to acknowledge that Dean would have done far worse than Kerry in the general election.

[LittleClarkie]

9. Considering that he's not running next time

and as Chairman has a stake in party unity, that goal seems ludicrous in the extreme.

And I still say, if Dean couldn't make it out of the primaries, he was never gonna make it in the general election. We'd have lost like McGovern.

[second edition]

12. Agreed!

[ProudToBeLiberal]

15. Kerrites refuse to acknowledge that Dean would have been better off

you're just using circular logic man.

[LittleClarkie]

19. He didn't even make it out of the primaries

at the least, his campaign was long on enthusiasm and short on experience. They needed the experience.

If he could have won the election, he should have won the primaries. Simple as that.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

25. wait from that logic you're saying McCain would have lost the general

That's hard to believe. McCain is one of the most popular senators across both aisles. The only reason he didn't win the primary was the fundy vote in South Carolina and rumors about him having an affair with a black woman.

[LittleClarkie]

28. Of the objective was to run against BUSH, then then it makes sense

McCain didn't survive the Bush machin in the primaries. If he'd have gotten through the primaries, he wouldn't have been running against Bush. He'd have been running against Gore. And might have won.

Would you say that Dean, in the primaries, was running as much against Bush's machine as against his fellow Dems? I would.

Even if you don't agree that he was already fighting Bush during the primaries, I still say if he couldn't survive fellow Democrats working against him, he was never going to make it against Bush and esp. Rove.

The primaries were just the dress rehearsal. The big guns weren't even out yet.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

32. yeah but you're ignoring the "electable argument" nt

[LittleClarkie]

37. With good reason

since I'm told by a Kucitizen that it was used againt their guy, by Deaniacs. And don't come back with "Dennis wasn't in it to win it". That's not how the Kucitizens felt, and it still doesn't take away the fact that Deaniacs thought that was a good enough arguement when it was their guy who was supposed to be "electable."

[second edition]

30. Yeah! Now thats a statement based on true findings not feelings.

Thank you!

[11cents]

6. Yeah. "Someone put him up to it."

What is this shit of making insidious implications at the drop of a hat, anyway? "Someone put him up to it." "Someone got to him." "He's been bought." I'm not much of a Kos fan, but there's nothing suspicious about his having been a Dean supporter and also being critical or dismissive of Kerry. One can lead to the other in a logical, principled way.

(Admittedly, some bloggers, and I include Kos here, have contributed to this type of atmosphere by their constant tone of sweeping denunciation. "X is a moron." "Y is completely useless", etc.)

[LittleClarkie]

10. I'm not up on the stories

but doesn't it have something to do with money and Zephr Teachout? Have those allegations ever been fully explained to everyone's satisfaction?

If so, could someone cough up the explanation here? I'd like to see it.

[second edition]

11. I wasn't implying anything here.

I was stating my opinion and concern.

[11cents]

13. Please. You asked if "someone put him up to it."

And made the IMHO ridiculous suggestion that Dean needs to come out and denounce a blogger for stating his opinions on his blog, lest it appear that it was Dean that "put him up to it."

[second edition]

31. Well, when that blogger is attempting to divide our Party

and it might affect donations, yes, I think Dean should address and comment on Kos and others out to splinter support within the party.

[politicasista]

7. I agree SE.

:hi:

[BobRossi]

16. re: What's behind all of Kos's......

I for one fully belive that Kerry played the role of shill for shrub to a tee. Perhaps Kos knows more about Kerry than the rest of us?

[zulchzulu]

20. I don't give a rat's ass about what Kos thinks of Kerry

Kerry is on my side. Hell, he's on Kos' side...

If Kos wants to diss Kerry on the civil union/gay marriage issue (which is identical to Dean's), let him.

I rarely go to Kos' site anyway. If he wants to diss an ally, it's good to know for future battles.

[politicasista]

23. Amen

:applause:

[rniel]

21. I think the democrats are in on it

No proof here just get the feeling that the democrats have been convinced by Karl rove to be complacent as a permanent minority party.

Every now and then they will pretend to take a stand on something to get votes from victims like us, but 9 times out of 10 will just roll over like a dog.

This would explain the mediocre effort to win the election by Kerry. He was half asleep through the whole campaign.

There may be a few of them left that are not in on the big joke and do their own thing (Kuchinich, Boxer), but they don't need to worry about them.

[KittyWampus]

33. Mediocre Effort? Half Asleep? Kerry Worked Endlessly, Where Were You?

I saw photos of Kerry around the country working his ass off in front of HUGE crowds that weren't hand selected.

Oh, that's right, the Mediawhores forgot to give Kerry equal time and the same unquestioning coverage they gave Junior.

Half asleep. What a pantload.

[shance]

22. Are you saying Kerry should be immune to criticism because he

he calls himself a Democrat?

As a Democrat and as someone who contributed to Kerry's campaign ($250.00), and consequently someone who feels betrayed by Mr. Kerry's quick exit without so much as a whimper from the election,

I'm curious why there are those who would rather defend him and deny some pretty apparent shortcomings, than support those Democrats who are actually DOING their job and working for their constituents and for their party?

Let me add, I would be the first to support Mr. Kerry if I observed tangible signs of loyalty, reliability or sincerity. I have honestly not seen those qualities, at least since he made an incredible speech during Vietnam.

With John Kerry I can't tell what his story is and if he's is in fact a leader or has become through his ascension to power, a self-consumed egomaniac, or even just an exhausted burnt out legislator. Honestly, I have to say atleast with George Bush he's reliable in the sense that you know what he doesn't stand for and what he does stand for. I am still trying to figure out what John Kerry stands for.

I have never felt as much as I may have wanted to, that he is a leader Americans can depend on. His actions, with the exception of his Vietnam speech, which was incredible, seem to lack any conviction, courage or what I see as legitimate caring and concern. I have never, save his Vietnam speech, seen other evidence of conviction. Maybe its there, but I haven't seen it.

I wish that were not true. Other than a few good men and women, we are literally starving for leadership in our party, and the Republicans are doing everything they can to dismantle any sane leadership period.

Many of my friends, because of Kerry's loss and quick departure with out a fight, have left politics and feel there's no reason to stay involved. What can I tell them if they may very well be right?

That is why it's so important to have leaders we can trust. And I have to say that as a result of the 2004 election and the way the voter fraud/problems were essentially ignored and swept under the rug, I will not ever fully trust John Kerry again.

[second edition]

34. Kerry has been a very vocal spokesperson for our party.

That is one of the reasons Kos is concerned. Kerry's out promoting his "Kids First" inititive and has placed ads in the USA Today newspaper coming out against, Bush,Bolton,Friest & Delay. He has been extremely active in the senate voting against Condi,against Anwar drilling the Bankruptsy Bill -just to mention a few.I don't agree with your assessement of Kerry's campaign and I won't get into that with you, but please don't think Kerry hasn't been our their fighting for us because that just isn't true. This isn't just about him. He isn't a shallow person.

[bonzotex]

24. He doesn't like Kerry...that's it, end of story

Lots of Democrats don't want to see him run in 08'. Kerry is a good Dem, he can do a lot of great work in the Senate. He doesn't need to run again though.

I don't think there's any more to it than that.

[blm]

26. Dean and Kerry have a great relationship. They talk constantly, and have

been since the primaries. They are way tighter than most realize.

[second edition]

35. I am aware of that. I gave money to Dean on Kerry's urging.

That is why Kos concerns me so much and I think Dean needs to address those who want to splinter our party. Kos is stiring up trouble.

[LeftCoast]

27. Gee, I mean...it's just so hard to believe Kos might actually, ya know

dislike Kerry? There has to be some nefarious conspiracy? Gimme a break.

[second edition]

36. Kos is entitled to dislike whomever.

He is not entitled to splinter our party because of he own personal feeling. He is well aware of the support Kerry has and he must know how his untruths affect others. he never even gets it right when he claims to be stating facts concerning John Kerry.

[LeftCoast]

46. Not entitled to splinter the party?

What the hell is that supposed to mean? And why does it only apply to Kerry?

[EST]

54. Would it be fair to say

Your point is that, since Kos has a bigger megaphone, he should be even more responsible about how he uses it?

[carpetbagger]

38. I agree with the attacks, and I'm hardly a Dean man.

My version of the postmortem was that Kerry blew the election all by himself by poor organization and lack of aggressiveness. If he couldn't beat Bush, there's no way he'll beat McCain, Allen, Owens, or even Jeb Bush. He's not even a sure bet against Frist.

John Kerry lost the election because he couldn't explain his Iraq stance in one sentence (hint: I opposed the bill after Bush succeeded with a veto threat to get Haliburton a pass on accountability.) , he chose a love-in convention, he didn't go ballistic against the sock puppets for truth, and he spent more time cerebrating in magazine interveiws than he did practicing one-liners.

Now we see him cerebrating in magazines. Damnit, if there's one thing we should learn from Bush, it's that in an age of idiocy, you need to stick to message and one-liners. Leave the cerebrating to the cerebrating class. Politicians stick to the politics.

[wisteria]

40. John Kerry came within 60,000 votes of winning the election.

Actually, he seems to be in a stronger position then any of those you mention. IMO, Kerry lost this election because people were afraid to change leaders during the war. You seem to ingnore that fact that Bush was very popular within his base. He was never easy to beat.

[carpetbagger]

43. I fear that is as close as he will get.

Bush had baggage. He had a bare majority of Americans supporting his own war on the eve of the election. He was completely incoherent during the debates.

I have no doubt Kerry would beat Bush in 2008. However, we won't have it as easy. How does Kerry beat Owens, or Hagel? He's demonstrated an inability to run a campaign. I think his blabbering off to a magazine about the Massachusetts Dem platform shows he's learned nothing. He should be able to dodge opportunities to bash his party and state. If he can't get around that, there's no way he gets a free pass from a candidate who actually knows how to get on the TV and campaign in the media. Remember, Bush had the disadvantage of idiocy, so they had to keep him locked up in closed, prepared events.

Unless Kerry can show some ability to change, or the media suddenly starts reporting news on its own (see entry for pigs, winged), there are several GOP nominees who would run circles around him, setting the agenda, and having Kerry answering the question "so how often do you beat your wife".

[Clarkie1]

39. LOL "Dean needs to come out and make a statement."

That ain't his job or his business.

[wisteria]

44. It is when he is responsible for fund raising and party unity

and Kos has launched a personal crusade against Kerry and in doing so knows he is angering a large support base of Kerry's. Kos is not helping the party in attacking Kerry. Kos is not offering constructive criticism to Kerry. He is out and out rejecting just about everything Kerry does and presenting his opinion as fact. The ultimate goal being to discredit Kerry. Who is Kos not going to like next? I agree with the original poster, Dean needs to make a statement about how important it is now for all of us to put our petty differences aside and try to be a united party.

[Clarkie1]

55. The chair of the democratic party has no interest in telling some blogger

what to say or not to say.

I'm am sure Mr. Dean has far better ways to spend his time and energy.

For him to say something about Kos would put Kos on par with the Chair of the Democratic Party, and make Dean look silly.

[Skwmom]

41. Maybe he's now a paid consultant for one of

Kerry's 08 competitors. Whoever came up with the phrase "follow the money" sure and the heck knew what he was talking about.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[politicasista]

47. I think he is new here.

:shrug:

[LeftCoast]

48. Noooo...we couldn't possibly have legitimate reasons to dislike the guy...

Why is it so difficult for Kerry supporters to accept the legitimacy of those who don't like him? Look, your man lost against the worst president in US history. Is it REALLY that difficult to imagine that some of us here don't care for him so much?

[zulchzulu]

49. "accept the legitimacy of those who don't like him"

That's precisely my point. Those who don't like Kerry usually have no clue what Kerry stands for or are too mentally challenged to understand the complexities of some issues.

As for Kerry "losing" in 2004, there are a couple of issues with that. First, he probably won. Secondly, if he did lose, it was the closest election EVER where there was a war-time President up for re-election.

And thirdly, perhaps you can tell me ONE legitimate reason why Kerry is a bad Democrat...

[LeftCoast]

50. He's not a bad Democrat

Who said he was?

[zulchzulu]

51. Lookee! He's backing away from his Kerry-bashing kneejerk reaction

OK. You say you don't like Kerry. You say I should question the "legitimacy" of those "who don't like him".

Not to go back on my assumption that most Kerry bashers are generally less bequeathed with functionally worthy cerebral cortex, cerebral white matter, hippocampus–amygdala, caudate nucleus, globus pallidus plus putamen and diencephalon, but to say Kerry's integrity is to be questioned also formulates the assumption he is not "doing his job" or is not being a "good" democrat.

Again, simply state ONE issue where you find Kerry to not be worthy...or not. I don't care really.

[LeftCoast]

53. Do we really need to rehash all the reason I don't like Kerry?

Additionally, are we talking about me personally? Or do I have to answer for everyone who doesn't like Kerry.

Oh, and actually I said that you should not question the legitimacy of people who don't like Kerry. Maybe that was a typo?

In any case, the first thing that comes to mind in terms of why Kerry has not earned my vote (because that's really what we're talking about) is his latest statement about the gay marriage plank. So have I passed your legitimacy test?

[zulchzulu]

57. Okie dokey

I figured it was the Kerry Bash du Jour that came from Kos. So civil unions (or as it should really be called "common-law marriage") aren't good enough for now?

Whatever...

[WildEyedLiberal]

52. Those "legitmate" reasons for disliking Kerry are usually hogswill

"Legitimate" reason #1 - HE FOLDED! WAH WAH WAH!

Um, I'm not even going to go there. I guess they would've had him storm the White House on January 20th in his Nam commando gear and take the place by force. Or something.

"Legitmate" reason #2 - He had no message/he wasn't forceful enough/etc

Like you said zulch, ignorance. A clear disinterest in actually paying attention to what the man was saying and doing; nothing more. A willingness to let Karl Rove and FUX define their view of Kerry for them.

Yeah, you pretty much nailed it all in your first post.

[LittleClarkie]

56. Or my favorite

The RW talking point brigade:
flip flopper
windsurfer
elitist

And they wonder why we lost. If we did.

[second edition]

58. Your right!

They use the same old misconceptions about Kerry. Kos doesn't seem to be able to come up with anything that hasn't already been used by someone else already. Kos isn't about constructive criticism or researched data or even quoting sources, he is about doing damage to a fellow democrat he doesn't personally want to see run again and seeing how much of a following he has.

[cestpaspossible]

59. 'the DLC/Dean grassroots effort'

:rofl:

[RogueTrooper]

60. I was under the impression that Kos

has a soft spot for both Dean and Clark. During the primaries one of the support bloggers was a strong Gephardt supporter.

I know that during the primary he did work for the Dean campaign; but I was of the understanding that was to do with setting up a MoveableType blog. I believe the Zepher was keen for him to become a campaign mouthpiece but, from what I have gathered, he was keen to keep his independence.

[sleipnir]

62. What do you mean? He's always disliked Kerry as a Pres. Candidate

IMO, Kos (and myself) feel that Kerry is still trying to run a campaign, this time for 2008. It's like he took a couple months off and is now running on the "outsider" ticket.

Kos is trying to point out the future failures of another Kerry candidacy and this new twist to his future campaign.

To paraphrase Kos, he said the Kerry is a great senator, but a horrible Presidential candidate as he carries no real message and doesn't invoke a fastidious, religious-like following in his supporters (which is critical to winning elections.)

What's behind the attacks? Simply that in some way, probably half consciously, he's trying to derail a 2008 run of Kerry, for what he sees as the good of the country. Which, well, honestly might not be a bad thing.

[second edition]

63. So Kos thinks he is doing the country a favor by derailing Kerry?

Excuse me, but who is Kos to think that he is qualified to make that judgment for the rest of us. I don't think the Kerry campaign was as bad as he lays out. He is using nothing more than his own observations on this. Nothing he says is fact except Kerry lost. I actually disagree with all his points. Kerry came within 60,000 votes of being elected. And many of us feel his still should have another shot at running in 2008. Actually, a Kerry 2008 run might be the best thing to happen.

[NYCGirl]

64. So you think bloggers should be stopped from expressing their opinions? NT

[sleipnir]

65. In some half-conscious way, YES. And he's entitled to his opinion.

He's not a journalist, he runs a moderate Dem. blog, and I think that if his readership does not support his ideas, then they will stop going to his site.

No readers = No add dollars.

Which means, Kos has to pony up his own money to continue to convey his message.

There has been some disagreement with Kos on his site, many readers, like yourself, see Kerry as a hopeful for 2008 and a potential winner in the election. Those who do not enjoy Kos' attitude, may not return or they may appreciate a wide variety of viewpoints.

We are all entitled to our opinion. Kos has demonstrated through hard work, determination and a successful blog and political commentary, that his opinion is worth something and should not be dismissed out of hand.

Time will tell if the netroots agrees with Kos and others who do not want to ever see Kerry run for President again. I believe that by the visable, yet limited disagreement on Kos' site, many of his readers share the same conclusions.

[second edition]

66. You are making him more important than he actually is.

His opinion is not fact and his writing is not true political commentary. He offers nothing constructive. He is only out there inciting his base at the expense of others.Yes, he is entitled to his opinion, but he should label it as such and not try to pass it off as factually based.