Why can't we all just buy diesel fuel converters and be done with it?

[leftist.]

Forgive me if this has been discussed to death, but I just don't f*cking get it.

Why can't we all just start buying diesel-powered cars, kick in the $500 or so for the converter, and just be done with oil and bush and republikans and middle east theocracies!!!

[BlueEyedSon]

1. WTF are you talking about (converter)?

[DinahMoeHum]

2. Are you talking about conversion to biodiesel?

n/t

[jobycom]

3. Vegetable oil is expensive, and the oil companies don't get the money

So Bush has no incentive to push for it.

Also, as you can tell from the posts, not everyone knows you can run a diesel off vegetable oil. It's actually complicated. To use veggie oil, or to make biodiesel, you still have to use some petroleum, especially in cold weather regions. Some engines are better for it than others. Some designs, like the old 80s five cylinder Mercedes engines, need almost no modifications to run off vegetable oil, while some need new injectors, tanks, filters, etc. They have to be started with petro diesel then switched to another tank to run off veggie oil.

You can get free used veggie oil from restaurants, and with proper filtration and tank heating, you can run your diesel off that, but if EVERYONE did it, then the used oil wouldn't be as available anymore, and someone would find a way to buy it and sell it back to us.

Just some random thoughts.

You are right, though. The technology is easily available for us to convert our energy needs to home grown solutions that would actually create more revenue for farmers and eliminate the need for government subsidies to farmers. That's what's got Willie Nelson all excited. Many people would have to buy new cars, and industry would have to retool, and our skies would smell like french fries all the time. But the solution is there. It's just not profitable for the oil companies yet.

[leftist.]

6. jobycom rocks!

Oops, Thanks jobycom! I didn't stop to think that some might not know about that. I posted in a fit of rage, LOL.

Yeah, you can take a diesel powered automobile, outfit it with a converter, and run the damned thing off of french fry grease. Now, obviously it's a little more complicated than that (as jobycom explained, and thank you for that btw), but it's do-able.

That's all I've been doing all day (instead of working, heh) ... just sitting here reading about biodiesel. I'm in NYC and I dont drive, but goddammit I've about convinced myself to do this *anyway*, just to make some sort of small statement. Just to make myself feel a little better about whats going on in good ole corporatist amerika.

[jobycom]

7. I bought an 82 Mercedes diesel to try out biodiesel, and maybe

grease conversion. I got the plans together to make biodiesel, but I've been too busy to look for an oil supply.

It sounds more simple than it is, but I don't see why the government doesn't investigate it more. I've heard that some cities have been investigating running buses and city vehicles off veggie oil or biodiesel. I think my own (Austin) is one of them.

I drove once in NYC, last January. In a Prius. I loved it! Fifth Avenue on a Saturday night felt like the Grand Prix! Of course, I paid $100 in tolls over bridges because I kept getting lost.

[Chemical Bill]

23. Isn't Willie Nelson selling biodiesel?

I know he has his name on a truck stop biodiesel business, and I would think it would be near Austin.

[jobycom]

26. It's about a hundred miles away, and it's B20.

He's trying to get more stations to carry it, but they aren't so far.

[calimary]

27. Neil Young ran his entire tour, the last time, he went out, on biodiesel.

Every tour bus he had used biodiesel fuel. And he got around the country JUST FINE.

[JRob]

30. There are people out here (N. Idaho) that know how to do it... n/t

[rjbny62]

10. new cars can be converted to run on veggie oil

there are several post-2000 Jetta's in my neighborhood that have been converted. You can do a real slick conversion for about $1000, or less if you don't want anything fancy.

Vegetable oil is a renewable resource, unfortunately there is no urgency for it because the big petro oil companies are raking in huge profits now, and wars over oil are also desirable to certain people.

Sure, the free used veggie oil would be depleted quickly if more people got excited about it, but I would gladly pay for veggie oil if it would stop this countries dependency on middle eastern petrol and end the wars. Someone told me that we could run all our cars off vegetable oil if we simply farmed the fallow land that the government pays US farmers not to cultivate now. I even hear that you can make plastic out of veggie oil, so I am basically coming to the conclusion that the oil crisis is an illusion and the big oil companies are making the most of it. I can well imagine that veggie oil wouldn't be nearly as profitable as petrol, and since profit is king, not the well-being of our neighbors or this planet, I don't expect things will change in my lifetime. Sad isn't it?

[leftist.]

13. Unbelievably so :(

>> Sad isn't it?

Yes, and getting sadder each and every day.

[jobycom]

14. Yes, most diesels can be converted

I've seen people convert new VWs, and heard of people converting new Mercedeses, Chevy trucks, even RVs and buses. Some links, if anyone is interested:

Conversion kits:
http://www.greasecar.com/index.cfm
http://www.greasel.com/

This site has a lot of info on biodiesel, Straight Vegetable Oil, and other alternate energy sources.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel.html

This is on the same site, but mostly about vegetable oil instead of biodiesel. There are a lot of links on this page to more information.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html

[ieoeja]

24. Paying farmers not to cultivate.

FYI: Reagan eliminated that practice twenty years ago. Doing so is what ushered in the mass extinction of family farms.

[patcox2]

36. This is Insanity, Stupidity Combined. Dumb.

Please, biodiesel takes more energy to produce than it generates. Sure, a few parasites can use up the old cooking oil, great, but there just aren't anough McDonalds around to provide used cooking oil for everyone. Insane.

[K8-EEE]

38. It Only Lacks Infrastructure. The Status Quo Is Insane!

Why can't the fast food places get $$ for their old grease, they come and syphon it out and refine it, hey there's not enough GAS for everyone either.

What's insane is to act like we have to have a fossil fuel based economy forever....it's like driving towards a cliff at 80 mph and saying, oh I'll put the brakes on when I see the cliff.

I'm sick of people being so negative simply because no alternative energy can replace oil overnight. Even if we aim for 20% biodeisel and have to subsidize it until we have higher efficiency refining techniques, GREAT, LET'S START!

THE STATUS QUO IS INSANE!

[Sorwen]

40. no, no, no

Biodiesel produced from soybeans generates 3.2 units of energy per unit needed to produce the soybeans and convert them to biodiesel. That's a 220% net energy gain!

Don't confuse it with ethanol. One popular study showed ethanol had a negative net energy balance. Most other studies have shown that ethanol yields 30-40% more energy than it consumes. Studies on biodiesel show that it yields over 200% more energy than it consumes.

[Sorwen]

4. I'm not sure what you're talking about exactly

But I think we need to produce more biodiesel and more diesel-powered cars. The problem with diesel is that it does not burn very cleanly, but with newer technologies and by using biodiesel, it could be much better than gasoline. I think biodiesel holds much more promise than ethanol.

[The Doctor.]

5. Well, for one...

the logistics don't work just yet.

There is not an abundant enough supply of waste oil to cost effectively replace even a fraction of our consumption.

But on an individual basis, and if you have the patience for it - then by all means... go for it.

[leftist.]

8. Thx DrEldritch!

> the logistics don't work just yet.

I understand. But then, I'm not expecting a MASSIVE all-at-once conversion. The "waste oil" part I understand as well ... I guess I'm just thinking that the supply will grow with the demand.

With respect to "having patience" with it, I really do think it will be just like anything else new that we try. Give me a few weeks with it, let me get into a routine, and I (like most people) would never look back.

[Sorwen]

9. it doesn't have to be waste oil

It can be produced from soybean or canola oil or other vegetable oils. There is a pretty good supply of soybeans in the country. There's about 30 or so plants in the United States right now producing biodiesel, mostly from soybean oil. There are a number of plants in Europe producing it from canola oil. Producing biodiesel from soybean or canola oil is much more energy efficient than producing ethanol from corn.

[leftist.]

11. See?

Now *THATS* the *original* amerikan spirit! "Hey, oil has worked okay but now its causing us some problems; so let's find another way to do it".

This current corporatist environment just isn't cutting it and frankly I don't know how to change it except by doing what we are talking about doing right now.

[The Doctor.]

29. still too expensive...

But I agree, those who think ahead and are aware of what's comming will do ok.

[The Doctor.]

28. And still more expensive than petroleum.

How much for a 55 gallon drum?

And don't you forget for one second that those soybeans are grown with oil too.
As the price of oil rises, so does the cost of everything.

That's why the users of biodiesel get it from restaurants and then clean it up.

[Sorwen]

33. yeah but

That's why the government should give subsidies to the biodiesel industry. If the oil companies can get billions of dollars of tax breaks, why can't the biodiesel industry?

It does take oil to grow those soybeans, but unlike ethanol from corn, biodiesel from soybeans is fairly energy efficient. The energy output-input ratio for biodiesel from soybeans is 3.2:1, compared to just 1.4:1 for ethanol from corn. So, for every unit of energy used to grow the soybeans and convert them to biodiesel, we get 3.2 units of energy back. And there are other possible feedstocks for biodiesel that are more energy efficient than soybeans.

[rjbny62]

34. what is the energy output-input ratio for regular diesel?

[Sorwen]

39. Good question

I'm not sure, but I've read a couple sources that say it yields just 0.83 units of energy per unit of energy consumed.

[rjbny62]

43. "Fossil Energy Replacement Ratio" is lower for Gasoline

here is an interesting report on the subject

http://www.sae.org/events/sfl/pres-clark.pdf

Fossil Energy Ratio (FER) = Energy Delivered to Customer/Fossil Energy Used

Page 10 shows .8 for Gasoline, whereas Corn Ethanol is 1.4, and "Cellulosic Ethanol Biorefinery" is 5.3 units.

I have seen reports of Biodiesel being in the 3.x range

I guess some people would say that this is stupid, dumb, or idiotic to head in this direction sooner rather than later, but to me it seems more stupid to stick with the status quo and just drive off the cliff.

[MadHound]

37. Actually the logistics are starting to work out here in the Midwest

There's a brand new bio diesel refinery going up about fifteen minutes away from me. It isn't going to use waste oil, it is going to use soybean oil

All diesels can run on biodiesel, and at the most all one will need to do to convert over is switch your fuel lines over to metal rather than rubber.

Biodieel is cheaper, cleaner and better for your vehicle than regular diesel or gas. And now that there is starting to be some profit motive in it, I think that we will see more and more biodiesel being sold.

[DoYouEverWonder]

44. The we better legalize industrial hemp

because you can grow it anywhere, without pesticides and/or fertilizers, plus you can replace cotton and wood at the same time.

There is no one answer to solving our energy problems. It's going to be lot's of little things and soon Big Oil won't be so big anymore.

[The Doctor.]

45. Yes, hemp is a good idea.

but I don't see 2x4's coming out of this.

[NuttyFluffers]

46. bamboo?

:shrug:

granded there's no panacea, but i don't think we ever really expected one product to solve everything. the thing is, we have to start sometime. that's really the crux of the matter. doesn't matter if we get sad that the infrastructure isn't 'there yet' in terms of transcontinental support. the issue is we really should start getting this starting on the road to larger scale. we're gonna have to do it sometime. things are getting pretty crazy now, aren't they? wouldn't hurt if we tried.

i think venezuela's 'parallelism' movement is a good idea. just ignore the system that ignores your needs anyway and go do it on the side. i'm probably not describing the 'parallelism' concept all that well, perhaps if someone has that article again and can post the link? the industrial hemp part though is gonna be a political battle all the way, unfortunately.

[DoYouEverWonder]

49. No, hemp won't replace lumber

but it can replace wood used for paper. My guess is that about half the wood harvested goes to paper products? Hemp grows a lot faster and is easier to transport to the paper mill and we wouldn't have to log half of our national forests for it.

[sendero]

12. I'm not sure if I understand your question..

... but one thing I do know for certain, you cannot (in any practical sense) convert an engine that runs on gasoline to run on diesel, bio or otherwise.

[jobycom]

15. That's right

The engine has to be a diesel. Rudolph Diesel originally designed his engine to use vegetable oil, claiming that one day there would be a need for a non-petroleum source of energy. When he died, his engine was converted to run on petro diesel, or as some call it, Dino diesel.

Vegetable oil can be converted by a chemical process involving methanol into diesel fuel, and can be run in a diesel engine with no conversion to the engine. There is a minimum loss of horsepower and a gain in lubricity, which may offset. The exhaust is cleaner than a Prius exhaust, and smells like french fries.

Another option is a conversion kit to transform the diesel engine to run off vegetable oil, either new, or used. Usually the engine doesn't need modifications, but the fuel supply lines do. Some fuel injecters, though, do not modification.

Anyway, that's what he was talking about converting. You are right, gasoline engines can't be converted to run off diesel, biodiesel, or vegetable oil.

[sendero]

16. I found the OP...

... vague, since it says "why can't we all...?"

Only a tiny fraction of folks drive a diesel powered vehicle, probably in the 2% range.

So it isn't an option for "all" of us :)

[rjbny62]

17. isn't trading in your gas powered vehicle for a diesel an "Option"?

if people start thinking now about the future, that 2% number will increase

[sendero]

18. If you wish to buy a new vehicle....

.... but no, otherwise it's a zero sum game.

[rjbny62]

19. so you have found a car that will last forever?

[sendero]

32. No....

..... but I've bought only one new vehicle in my entire life (I'm 50) and it was the last.

I guess to get back to the main point, it's really simple - there isn't enough vegetable oil in the universe to replace petroleum.

Petroleum is a key ingredient (fertilizers, chemicals) in the production of bio oils, and once demand reaches a certain level (well before "everyone" has one) the price of used veg oil will surpass that of petroleum.

So, seriously, as a solution to the energy problem, I don't think this will fly any better than a perpetual motion machine.

[rjbny62]

35. "perpetual motion machine"....c'mon man, that isn't a rational comparison

Is petroleum a renewable resource, or is it going to run out?
What will happen to the price of petroleum when it starts to run out?

Is veg oil a renewable resource? Even without petroleum, it is probably produceable to some extent, and can provide this planet with energy at some price long after the petroleum supply is exhausted. In the long run, it has to be cheaper than something that you can't buy because there isn't any supply.

Or is it better to just do nothing....except fight wars over oil?

[sendero]

41. Maybe hyperbolic..

.... but no less so than that idea that bio oils can substitute even for the petroleum used for gasoline, much less anything else.

Ask a farmer how much vegetable oil yields will fall when he has to pay 3x, 5x or even 10x his current prices for fertilizers and chemicals. Look at the economic laws of supply and demand. When people start wanting these oils en mass, the price will rise accordingly.

Look, I'm not against biodiesel. But I'm against pollyannish ideas that have no basis in reality. I have no idea what current research says, I'm just intuitively believe that bio oils could substitute for only a tiny fraction of the gasoline consumption of the US.

[jobycom]

21. I bought a Prius and a diesel, for the exact reasons

given around here. To help the environment (once I convert the diesel) and to reduce dependency on foreign oil. It's not much, but it's the most I can do.

It's the decisions we make, if we want to make change. You don't have to buy a new car. If you have a five year old car, sell it and buy a five year old diesel. Not saying you have to make that choice, just that some of us have.

[jobycom]

20. He says "Why can't we all start buying diesel powered cars..."

Vague?

:shrug:

[Chemical Bill]

22. No conversion needed for biodiesel...

as you say. I found that people get confused between biodiesel and straight vegetable oil (SVO).

I've run my stock VW diesel on biodiesel for two years, with minimal fuss. I have to drive 50 miles to buy it, so I stock up, taking extra gas cans, and only go once a month. I feel like it's a small sacrifice compared to what people go through in Iraq.

You'll notice I said I buy it, I don't make it myself. I can, I'm a chemist, and I have made small test batches, but commercial biodiesel is available at an oil dealer close enough for me to drive to, so why bother making it.

I'm amazed that more people don't know about biodiesel, until I remember that the corporate press and * favor the oil monopoly, so they tell us to buy more cars that get a little better milage but still use gasoline. Since the CP don't talk about biodiesel, you know it must be good.

BTW, there's a good program at UNH to make biodiesel from algae. We could fuel the transportation in this country using very little land if we can get that technology going.

Check out biodieselnow.com

Bill

[jobycom]

25. I could buy it in Austin at a couple of sources

They are both on the other side of town, and I haven't started doing it, yet.

Willie Nelson is marketing it, but no one is carrying it yet in Austin. It's B20 (20% biodiesel, 80% petro diesel), so it isn't the same, but it's a start.

[rjbny62]

31. what blend of biodiesel do you use?

[leftist.]

42. !!! Wow Thanks!

Hey thanks for picking this up guys! I've never had a topic last longer than 2 minutes or 10 posts before :P I'm learning tonnes about this subject from both this thread and just sitting here reading around at different web sites. So thank you!

[NMMNG]

47. Good question

I also wonder why they haven't come up with some alternative form of engine in all of the years they've been working on it. Perhaps someone with some know-how (I have none at all) could explain....

Ending our dependence on oil should be a top priority, particularly now.

[Rob Conn]

48. Diesel is deadly

Diesel fuel in its petroleum form is carcinogenic before and after combustion. And lets not forget MTBE.

[rjbny62]

50. can you provide some background documentation on this statement?

[Rob Conn]

51. Update

I did a search and found many articles discussing the benefits of biodiesel in constract to petrodiesel. They indicated that aromatic chemicals such as benzene are added to petrodiesel turning something that's only carcinogenic when its burned into something more carcinogenic either way. - R.C.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

52. Rudolph Diesel originally designed the engine to take veggie oil, and he

wound up dying a mysterious death in 1913.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Diesel

[rjbny62]

53. this is interesting...

"Another motive for his death may have been that his engine demoted petrol oil monopoly profits, already becoming highly consolidated globally."

fast forward to today.....


>>>>
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aO..3byydznw&refer=us

Exxon Mobil, Shell Profits Soar as Demand Gains Boost Prices

April 28 (Bloomberg) -- Exxon Mobil Corp. reported the fifth- largest quarterly net income in U.S. history and Royal Dutch/Shell Group's first-quarter profit jumped 28 percent as unprecedented demand lifted energy and chemicals prices.

Profit at Exxon Mobil jumped 44 percent to $7.86 billion, or $1.22 a share, from $5.44 billion, or 83 cents, a year earlier, the Irving, Texas-based company said today in a statement. Shell said its earnings excluding gains in the value of oil in storage rose to $5.55 billion from $4.33 billion.

Oil companies are reaping record profits as expanding economies in Asia and North America spur demand gains that are outpacing growth in supplies. Crude-oil and gasoline futures reached record highs this month in New York.

>>>>