Big Dog: Dems must learn to fight dirty. Like them.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

Dems must fight, and fight dirty, Bill Clinton told a tony Time Warner crowd.



Bill Clinton wants Democrats to stop being wimps.

He reminded the power crowd at Time Warner's Conversations on the Circle, at the media giant's corporate headquarters Tuesday night, how Bush supporters, masterminded by Karl Rove, ran ads picturing Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein alongside former Georgia Sen. Max Cleland, a triple amputee, because he voted against the Homeland Security Act.


"The guy left half his body in Vietnam," he said. "They're in the business to beat us. When they come out after you, it is a contact sport.


"Get better tactics. Don't wuss around. And quit saying, 'They're so mean and vicious.' They only do it because it works. When they don't do it anymore, we can go back to a more civilized way of doing business."

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/gossip/story/308675p-264126c.html

Note: He's so very correct.

[formerrepuke]

1. So very, very correct. We need a Rove of our own.........n/t

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

2. We need better than Rove.

one to ten steps better.

[Dora]

3. You're right. We need better than Rove.

We need someone who understands the implications of karma. We need an ass-kickin' buddha-nature glad-handing political genius.

I don't know anyone like this.

[BrendaStarr]

24. We need a rank and file that fights for their side.

Go out into mixed forums and fight for our ideas and values.

[MsTryska]

29. heh. i would love to be that person....

but i've got no pull.

[FreedomAngel82]

I think Reid has the potential

To be our attack dog. He does it elliquently but still attacking. It has to happen more. They have to stand up and vote against a bill even if it means voting against military spending. No more bullshit.

[bunny planet]

82. We had him, it was Paul Wellstone.

:-(

[IronLionZion]

14. Rove is a dumbass

he's successful because he has no sense of decency at all. His methods are simple, it's just the no one else is evil enough to say a badly injured veteran is unpatriotic and use racism against a POW. He's not smart, just sick.

We need someone who is smart.

[calimary]

34. Sure took him long enough. Mr. President, sir, some of us here have been

screaming to get mean for years now.

My view, which I'd say is pretty well-informed by THE FACTS and RECENT HISTORY is that if you take the high road with these jackals, it'll lead you straight off a cliff.

There IS NO HIGH ROAD. There's only mud. And we have to learn to wrestle in it (and sneak a few brass knuckles and yanks to the gonads, too, while we're at it).

If they fight dirty, we need not simply to fight dirty, but to fight DIRTIER. The bully only backs down when he's smacked down.

[indepat]

4. I e-mailed Al Gore before the 2000 election that every dirty trick used by

the opposition must be used against them if he is to have any real chance to win. But who's gonna listen to this lunatic?

[Upfront]

36. I did

Not sorry I did.

[CWebster]

5. Yeah right, like him

After he has been advising Dems to just move past the issue or compromise or better yet, become a member of the opposition's family and play nice-nice.

[redqueen]

7. I suspect that he, as a former President, is not the one to do this job.

I think his message was aimed at Democratic pundits and those who 'shape the message'.

[Donna Zen]

11. Thanks

Fearing a sharp reprisal I hesitated about saying anything. In 2005, this comment from a Clinton makes no sense. I appreciate your taking the lead on this CWebster. Wasn't it just a month ago that we were being advised to embrace our "inner Randal Terry?"

[Pepperbelly]

41. Who has a better electoral record?

You or Bill Clinton. I think I might give his advice more credence than your cynicism.

[meppie-meppie not]

75. Not me. I'm with CWebster all the way his "cynicism" is not without merit

[Pepperbelly]

81. easy to throw rocks...

less easy to operate in the world of what is actually possible.

Unless you want to make a case for this position. I have not yet seen one.

[OzarkDem]

6. Back in fighting form

Sounds like Big Dog is recovering and getting back his strength. He's been through a lot these last several months, don't forget.

[Q]

8. Clinton is RIGHT of course...

...but the party could have used this kind of advice five, ten or fifteen years ago when the RWingers were busy buying up the 'mainstream' media, using religion for political gain, stacking the courts and encouraging witch hunts against liberal/progressive Democrats.

Meanwhile...Clinton's own DLC is advising Democrats NOT to be mean to Bush or to say anything bad about his 'war on terror' or slaughter in Iraq. THEY say it makes us 'look bad'.

Everyone KNOWS the Democratic leadership had their chance to nip this nastiness and corruption in the bud after the 2000 election was stolen and Bush 'allowed' 9-11 to happen on his watch and THEN used it to his own advantage.

Of course the party should be united in fighting the most corrupt government this nation has ever seen. But let's not fool ourselves into believing that 'some' in the party aren't collaborating with Bush and making his agenda possible and 'bipartisan'.

On edit: We don't need a ROVE to get out the 'right' message. What we DO need is more truth-tellers with courage enough to finally tell the truth about election fraud, 9-11 and illegal wars.

[RaleighNCDUer]

16. That's just the thing. Rove is not afraid to lie, obfuscate and bully

to get his way. Our Rove must not be afraid to to speak the truth, clarify, and bully with that truth to bring them down.

Bolton wants to hide who he is? It is our duty to expose who he is, even in his private life of sex clubs and marital relations, because those are clues to his character. They don't hesitate to use such material, or create such material when it doesn't exist, so why should we be prissy about it?

[Raksha]

63. Hell, I haven't been the least bit prissy about Bolton!

I posted a note with the subject line, "John Bolton is a wife-swapping pervert!" on my favorite mixed discussion board. And I didn't even need to make anything up...just rubbed the freepers' noses in it.

[flpoljunkie]

17. Agreed. Democrats must know where they stand and mean what they say.

Stand and vote together as the party of economic justice and civil rights. Don't chastise the base when we express our disapproval when they vote against the basic tenets of the Democratic party, i.e., the recent Democratic enabling of the bankrtupcy bill, already signed into law by Dubya, a one-sided and egregious giveaway to the banks and credit card companies.

[DeepModem Mom]

9. Could not agree more, Bill! nt

[Coexist]

10. In the words of Theodore Roosevelt

"in life, as in a football game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don't foul and don't shirk, but hit the line hard!"

[dbt]

12. Christ on crutches, Bill!

How long were you asleep??

:wow:

[meppie-meppie not]

76. no kidding. he's no longer the "come back kid" but the "awakened one" n/t

[wryter2000]

13. True

But hasn't he been telling us not to get too radical?

[sendero]

15. All I can say is...

.... DUH.

[Justpat]

18. Oh my

Poppy won't be his friend anymore after that speech.

[karynnj]

21. Or maybe Poppy's morals are corrupting Bill's

[meppie-meppie not]

77. aww, shucks! n/t

[Al-CIAda]

19. He is correct, but coming from a weasel like him, I say BFD.

He must mean 'fight dirty' like telling us to 'move on' from ANOTHER STOLEN ELECTION, from NAFTA, and from our issues with the DLC.

There's a real scrappy, fight against them opposition, the DLC!
:eyes:

[karynnj]

20. "Does it matter that you win the world, but lose your soul"

I agree that we need to fight their lies harder, BUT not by doing the same thing ourselves. We need to shine a spotlight on the fact that there is a lot of evil that was done in 2000, 2002 and 2004. I truly believe that the majority of Americans are good, or at least not evil.

One difficulty is that we have only a small amount of the press acting in an even handed fashion. So, I'm not sure that we could succeed even if we descended to the Republican's level, because we do not have their echo chamber. The Republican (even Laura) counter to Democratic complaints about the SBVT was that Michael Moore was doing the same thing to Bush - even though I don't think there was a lie in F911 that they could point to - just the tone.

I also think that it is conceivable that a Gov Bill Clinton might have lost to Bush if the time line were different. He did fight back when he ran (and he had more real baggage than Kerry), but he wasn't hit with anything as intense and ferocious as what Kerry faced. (Also, the press in 1992 loved Clinton and actually helped him overcome some of these attacks. Kerry never got a break from the press - even when Republicans, including elected officials wore purple heart band aids or questioned if he even bled. I didn't hear any outrage, though this was clearly beyond the pale.

Frankly I would rather have a stronger Kerry-like run (IE: a clean, high minded campaign that speaks to American values with a candidate (not necessarily Kerry who speaks the truth to the American people and inspires them to believe we can again be a better country.) than a Bush-like campaign that engages in character assignation and lies. Even if we win after something like that I don't think the country could be healed. If our nominee followed this advise, I think I would probably do something I've never done or threatened, which is to vote for a third party.

I sincerely hope these comments were taken out of context. If not, they will negatively impact my view of Clinton - as did his suggestion that Kerry at the end of his campaign should have endorsed the various anti-gay bills) The source is the New York Daily News, which though head and shoulders better than the Post is not the best source in the world.

[desi826]

40. You will not lose your soul if you fight for what' s RIGHT

Repubs lose their souls because they continue to fight using untrue tactics (like the Swift Boat liars)and support things that are WRONG.

No one here is advocating that, nor is Bill Clinton.

But no one beats a bully by cozying up to him.

You have to stand up to him.

For yourself, everyone else, and maybe even your community.

Clinton was right...these guys do these things to the Dems because they CAN.

And that is totally the fault of the Dems.

Not to mention completely pathetic.

As far as Michael Moore, here's the thing that you're not getting.

Repubs (and even some Dems) were going after him NOT to make that movie LONG before the first roll of film was put into a camera.

Washington was on the phone with EVERY Hollywood studio threatening them with all kinds of white-collar atrocities if they even THOUGHT of giving him money to make that movie-until the Academy Awards when he called GWB a liar and a thief(which is the truth) on national TV.

Repubs were furiuos.

But a major Hollywood Big-wig was impressed.

Moore got money and distribution the next day.

It broke box-office records in it's first week.

Repubs went ballistic.

Why?

Because in this, the public sided with Moore-even 40% of the Repubs that saw the movie RECOMMENDED it to other Repubs.

In fact, the American public sides with the Dems often.

THIS is why Repubs want to decimate any and all opposition to their agenda, even, as you say, "tone"

This is why they were always trying to savage Moore.

That didn't mean Moore was wrong. He wasn't.

The DLC used him to cover up yet ANOTHER loss, and a big one.

Probably because their usual whipping boys(blacks and latinos) really hurt them at the polls this time in big City urban areas.
And it wasn't vote fraud...no one bothered.

No one came out except in the battleground states.

Probably a combination of Al From's racist Op-eds and the Dems "drive-by campaigning".

But again, NONE of this is Moore's fault.

He's done nothing but help Dems.

Like it or not, the Dems are getting bullied and if you want to stop it, "playing nice" is NOT going to get it done with THIS group of Repubs.

They are not moderates.

I will say it again.

They are not moderates.

They are extremists.

Again?

They are extremists.

Once more for the balcony.

They are extremists.

With all the danger that implies.

You, Me, and the rest of the country, along with the Dems have run out of time to "play nice".

Why do you think so many Dems are crossing the aisle and voting with the Repubs on all those terrible bills?

Because they have simply given up.

Given up the fight.
Even the Congressional Black Caucus..11 of them voted for that bankruptcy bill.

It's time to make each Dem in Washinton stand on their own and make them chose: DLC or US.

Expose those who are complicit, and vote them out of office, with the understanding with the one who is replacing him(or her), that the THEY will go too if they don't start walking the straight and narrow.

THAT is when we will see a Dem party unafraid of a fight, the true ability to articulate the values our party and this country was founded on, the backbone to clean up Congress and the White House, and TRULY bring back integrity to the Oval Office.
Des

[roseBudd]

22. And here is my contribution to fighting dirty...

Help to spread it.

based on a parody of VH1's Behind the Music, I created Behind the Election: Bush Cheated '04. Narrated by Shallow Throat and a cast of unsavory characters dishing the dirt on themselves.

Need to get it on fark without submitting it myself.

[cestpaspossible]

23. Clinton's idea of fighting dirty is to adopt the other side's position.

Which is fine if the only thing that matters is winning short-term.


"The era of big government is over" -- turns out that wasn't true, the governments bigger than ever (did anyone really believe it at the time?) -- the only thing that was really over was the American public's perception that the two parties really stood for two different things.

Bill Clinton is more to blame for our current problems than any other single person.

[Pepperbelly]

42. Bullshit...

I would take his advice before yours. How many elections have you won? How much governing have you done?

Just curious why your advice is more credible.

[cestpaspossible]

72. Why is it bullshit?

Other than your attack on me as 'less credible' than Clinton - do you have any comment on what I actually said, or do you just believe that I should be discounted because I was critical of Clinton?

I'm certainly not claiming that I'm 'credible' - that you should just believe me because of who I am. Rather, I want to be judged by the content of my comments.

[Pepperbelly]

73. What content?

A two-bit toss-off remark without substance.

Era of Big Government is over. Whooper shit.

What is your point?

[cestpaspossible]

74. Clintons idea of fighting dirty is to adopt the position of the other side

it's what he did over and over and over. 'Winning' battles that really meant surrendering in the larger war.


Clinton and his party-destroying strategy of triangulation is the biggest reason millions of Americans don't believe there is a real difference between the parties.

He was the epitome of the corporate Democrat and it will be a long struggle to overcome his legacy, to become a majority party again, but it will happen.



That's my point, and if you have the ability to make post a response, this is your chance, but if the most intellegent reply you can come up with is 'whooper shit' or the equivalent, you might as well skip it
- if it's the best you can do, however, I will respond anyway.

[meppie-meppie not]

78. I agree with some of what you say ...

Notably, about Clinton being the "epitome of the corporate Democrat" and as well about there being little difference between the parties but he's not the only democrat that shoulder's the blame, there's plenty of that to go around.

[cestpaspossible]

79. No. There is perhaps little difference between Clintons vision

of the Democratic party and the Republican party, if you look at his record and his rhetoric -- mostly differences of degree.

However, there is an enormous difference between the actual Democratic party and its millions of members and the Republican party.

[Pepperbelly]

80. I suppose that ...

passing everything he could before the 94 election without a single gop vote AFTER his party left him twisting in the wind over health care reform was adopting their position, specifically the Eco Recovery Act of '93 which was the spark plug for the 90's eco growth somwhow constitutes adopting the gop position. That is just plain absurd.

Or how about the rush to reverse virtually every administrative regulation he established during his administration when Bonehead came into office in 01? If those were gop positions, would Bonehead have reversed them? He just this week reversed the Wilderness Roads regs. He has blown off the eviron regs, he has altered the welfare-to-work regs that made it possible to move from welfare to work.

Apart from that, Clinton did not deviate from the positions he had taken
during the campaigns in '92 and '96 in any substantial way. However, far lefties, as always, are more than willing to sacrifice good on the alter of perfect. So now what will you do?

Whine about DOMA, NAFTA, and Welfare Reform?

Right now, he is saying EXACTLY what the lefties in here have been saying and you guys still hate him. Just like the righties hate him.

I think that shows he did many things right.

[cestpaspossible]

86. I agree that Clinton made no secret of his pro-corporate agenda

in the 92 campaign. That's one of the reasons I was less than enthusiastic about him at the time.


Look, if you want to believe that I'm wrong when I assert that Clinton was a master of triangulation and adopting the language and positions of the other side, fine, you can think I'm wrong. You can think the earth is flat for all I care.

[Pepperbelly]

90. So now ...

rather than dealing with the acts passed before the 94 election, the federal regs, etc. you choose instead to break wise.

Okay.

I suspect that your political analysis is rarely close to what actually happens although clearly, if the facts do not fit what you want, you seem to have no trouble merely ignoring them.

[cestpaspossible]

92. Are you trying to claim Clinton did not practice triangulation?

Your list would be a refutation of what I'm saying if I were saying that Clinton never did anything good. But of course, that's not what I'm saying.

[Pepperbelly]

93. What I am saying is that ...

like the rest of the world, Bill Clinton's world isn't black and white, no matter how much some would pretend otherwise. Bill Clinton does not deserve the scorn and derision heaped upon him from some quarters on the left. It's like this ... the right wing fascists hate him far more than they hate Kucinich or Chomsky or Nader.

And to thining people, that should ring a bell or two of recognition that maybe Bill Clinton is not an anathma to the left at all.

The left is not monolithic and Bill Clinton's claims of progressive legacy is as firm as any in our history.

[cestpaspossible]

94. But none of that has anything to do with what I said.

What I said was that Bill Clinton, through his triangulation strategies and appropriation of the other side's rhetoric and positions, is the person most responsible for the sorry state of the Democratic party.

With both sides cheering the lie that "the era of big government is over", the American people were left trying to figure out who stood for what. Since the Democrats were suddenly saying what the Republicans had been saying for years, the inescapable conclusion was that Democrats stood for nothing. And imho, that conclusion was totally correct when applied to Clinton.

Look, I get it that you like Clinton, and I don't have a problem with that. But just asserting that Clinton has 'a progressive legacy' or listing some of the good things he did does not in any way address my point. To do that, you would have to explain how, when Bill Clinton adopted Republican positions -- and thank you for dropping the pretense that he didn't -- you'd have to explain how his support of Republican policies actually helped strengthen the Democratic party. Would you care to explain that?

[Pepperbelly]

98. You are assuming facts NOT in evidence ...

Would you care to actually PROVE that what you characterize as his "Republican positions" are what has led to the lack of success in Democratic Party electoral politics?

You keep saying it. You keep listing things that you assert are gop ideas yet so far, all we have is sound and fury and, as the bard noted, it signifies nothing.

I submit that the exact opposite is what is true. The Democrats inability to gain national office even AFTER Watergate ... the single 4 year blip of the Carter Administration (out of the 24 year period since 1968) are what was at the root of the problem. I would also suggest that you examine the role that reapportionment has had in the entire shift of the political balance of the Congress. I would also submit that the election of Bill Clinton SHOULD have demonstrated to the public the relative merit of the two parties as they govern.

I would also suggest that you examine the effect of the so-called liberal media on the electoral process, the constant Democrat bashing and gop fellating. I would also point you toward the actual mechanics of the electoral process itself.

Geez ... as Judge Judy would say, don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

[cestpaspossible]

100. OK, so you are back to pretending Clinton did not triangulate

was not a 'New Democrat', did not co-opt Republican positions, etc.


Yeah, I guess I'm just making the whole thing up. :eyes:


c ya

[Pepperbelly]

102. incredibly non responsive ...

you do not seem to be able to come to grips with attempting to prove your case.


So yeah ... c ya.

[cestpaspossible]

105. Yeah

when the debate opponent performs an unwitting reductio ad absurdum on his own argument, no response is needed.

[Pepperbelly]

107. please ...

:eyes:

You are very good with buzz phrases but very short on specifics. Throughout this has been true. You shouldn't try these particular tactics when they are clearly not working and the person with whom you are discussing the issue sees through them. All we have from you ... the only thing we have, are assertions that are, at best, merely your own opinion and at worst, non-factual.

So, once again, can you somehow establish the wild-assed charge that you made ... that BC was responsible for the current state of affairs in electoral politics? Do not forget, if you happen to attempt to pony up some answer, that I presented you multiple alternate causalities and if you won't to press your assertion, you will have to show why your explanation is more reasonable and more factual than mine.

[cestpaspossible]

108. Yeah, I'm giving you my opinion based on Clinton's record.

His record, most people will agree, is mixed between support of traditional Democratic positions and triangulation and co-opting of Republican positions.


Yes, it is only my opinion, that when Clinton adopted what were traditionally Republican positions and rhetoric, it blurred the line between Republicans and Democrats among many of the less-polically astute members of the electorate. That opinion is based on the logic that if two sides are saying the same thing it becomes harder to tell them apart, and also upon the anecdotal evidence of the common 'there is no difference between Republicans and Democrats' meme which was so powerful at the end of the Clinton Presidency that it allowed Nader to act as a spoiler. It is further only my opinion that Clinton's triangulation strategies also caused significant disillusionment among many Democrats in the more liberal wings of the party.

I don't think that is provable and I have no desire to prove it. If you disagree, fine, you are welcome to say why you think my opinion is wrong.

[Pepperbelly]

109. I did.

:D

[cestpaspossible]

110. Does it present a clear choice when both parties have the same position?

Or does that tend to blur the differences between the parties?

[Pepperbelly]

112. it's not about that ...

Ultimately, in my view, some things clearly need to be accomplished. For example, the Great Society welfare structure had served as a very expensive safety net, one that was self-perpetuating. It needed change. Not everyone agrees with that although many did. I did. I saw the welfare system from the inside as a Human Services bureaucrat. Factors that could encourage additional self reliance were verboten. The Child Support Enforcement system (IV-D agencies) were supposed to repay the grants to mothers with dependent children who were getting assistance for the children. The set-up before welfare reform was one that offered only disincentive and punatives for the mother's cooperation, that is the state would pay her only the first $50 collected and kept the rest to apply against the amount of the grant that had been paid for the children's benefit.

After welfare reform, the custodial parents were encouraged to cooperate in bringing the non-custodial to the bar for justice by giving them a far bigger share of the child support collected.

However, just fyi, the Welfare Reform measure that Clinton signed was not the one the gops preferred. He vetoed two bills before that had draconian measures that would have frayed the safety net substantially. What he ended up signing had all of the most egregious elements taken out and many of the just plain objectionable parts as well. Other parts were added that made the system fairer to the recipients.

So yeah, gops wanted welfare reform but then, so did many non-gop elements of the electorate. It was not a black and white, right or wrong issue. It was filled with nuance and gray.

Bill Clinton governed in the real world where decisions have consequences. I think he did an admirable job and does not deserve scorn or ridicule by progressives.

[cestpaspossible]

113. Unfortunately, it is about that.

The only demographic, for example, that went solidly for Kerry, is the 18-35 year old group, the same group that is most likely to believe the silly 'Democrats equals Republicans' meme, imho, because that's what Clinton's triangulation strategies told them. And if more of those disillusioned 18-35 year olds had voted, Kerry'd be in the WH right now.


Also, it's not about the specific policy details of this or that legislation, it has more to do with broad themes, rhetoric, and political strategy, which is why I cited the very broadly themed lie that Clinton told in his SOTU.

[Pepperbelly]

114. The broad themes you cite are ...

lies.

The Democratic and Republican parties are about as dissimilar as they can be and still have any chance of winning in America. But assholes like Nader spew the nonsense where they can and gullible people eat it up.

[cestpaspossible]

115. You seem to have mixed up my comments with someone else's.

Yes, it is the false perception that the parties are the same that Clinton helped to spread with his strategies of triagulation and adopting Republican rhetoric and positions. That is my point, so telling me that the parties are not the same makes no sense as a refutation.

[Andromeda]

66. Two words...

That's crap!

[cestpaspossible]

71. Perhaps you should try rousing your brain for more than 2

that is, if you want to try saying something interesting, insightful or persuasive.

Or, you could just label every idea you don't like as 'crap' if that's the most intelligent comment you can come up with.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cestpaspossible]

101. Insightful. Tell me more.

[John_H]

25. Not going to happen. Too many Gore/Kerry wimps still in power.

It's a sad thing to say, but mark my words--they will kick our asses in 06 because we will run 06 like we ran 2000, 02, and 04. Why does our party let people who are 0 for their careers continue to develop strategy, run the communications operation, and organize? Your guess is as good as mine.

[beyurslf]

26. God I hope we wake up and listen to him. Being "nice" or "right" means

nothing when you LOSE.

[passy]

27. I posted something to that effect yesterday in an other thread.

It was about whether Kerry should have told people they were cheated and that their votes were stolen instead of quiting as early as he did.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3634419
This is an excerpt from my post: "It's not a question of being good or bad, decent or just plain evil, it's what the political scene has become and we have to play their way if we ever want to be heard. Right now they have shoved us off the stage, we need to climb back up and be as loud as they are, to not speak our truths with doubt and uncertainty in our voices, to talk directly to the American people knowing that we are honest and strong.
Do you think Rummy, Cheney and Rove even hesitate when they spew out all their lies? Hell no, they stick to the plan, however evil it might seem to us, they truly believe in their cause, the fact that they lie to the people everyday, that they let them get killed in unjust wars, that they imprison them without trials, that they steal an election, they manage to rationalize all these nasty deeds and continue on deceiving us.
Imagine what we could do for the people if we weren't embarrassed about our position, if we truly believed that the best policy for this country is to still be a democracy, with an independent media, where people do not have to live in fear, where everyone is taken care off no matter how much they are worth, where religion is not a cheap political tool.
These are the things we believe in and we have to go out to the people and not hesitate, we have to be firm in our belief because we know that if we don't succeed it will be the end of us.

[Amonester]

28. Never Give Up Hope, and Work For It

Print flyers about the U.K. secret memo and highlight all their LIES.
Specify what the PNAC is, who they are (include their site's address).
Direct the readers to the .pdf doc. there, and the "new Pearl Harbor."
Include information about who Prescott * was when he financed Hitler.

There are so many other "hidden" information about these gangsters, and the corporate media won't even discuss any of it. So "get around" them and do it yourself!

Find new creative ways to get it out there, use DU as you New Media and if necessary, make sure nobody "sees" you, and don't leave any fingerprints behind!

If you're not doing anything like this then, what's going on with you? You are supposed to be the experts in succeeding a Revolution, no? And a Revolution (well a peaceful, DEMOCRATIC one) is what you need now: the key is INFORMATION!

Stick posters around telephone posts! Even around trees! ANYTHING!

Never Give Up Hope! Every single second counts! And be careful.

[katinmn]

30. He's right. I hate to stoop to thier level but we're running out of time!

"When they don't do it anymore, we can go back to a more civilized way of doing business."

[Arugula Latte]

31. Gee, Bill, what tipped you off?

Could it have been, oh, gee, I don't know, the fact that we've had our ASSES KICKED FOR MORE THAN A DECADE NOW BY IGNORANT BULLIES AND HAVE SAT THERE TAKING IT AND TAKING IT?

[patricia92243]

32. In other words "Get the party ready to fight for my wife to be Prez"

[renaissanceguy]

50. Then why the hell does he play nice with the bushies?

And why is Hillary having photo-ops with Newt?

That's not playing dirty. That's called BENDING OVER.


http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues/611015

[patricia92243]

91. They are "keep your friends close - and your enemies even closer."

They need to be sweetness and light, but the party should fight like bulldogs - anyhow I hope that is what all of it means

[CountAllVotes]

33. no one and I mean no one

knows more about fighting dirty than Mr. Big Dog himself. Show what a fine example you are Mr. President!

:kick:

[Andromeda]

65. To some extent that's true.

I know you were just being snarky, but he wouldn't have become president if he hadn't had the ability to outsmart the Republicans by being politically saavy. He knew what to say, how to say it AND when to say it. He was able to deliver a message that clicked with the people and he had charisma.

He wasn't perfect but he survived because he was tough and overcame a lot of overwhelming odds. Clinton came up the hard way by sheer grit and street smarts.

Bill Clinton probably has one of the highest IQs of any president we've ever had. The Republicans tried to destroy him even before he entered the presidential race. They knew what kind of potential he had and that made them afraid because they knew he stood an excellent chance of winning.

You'd better believe it, besides FDR and JFK, he was the BEST president we ever had in the 20th century.

You'd better pray that the next president is a Democrat or you just might lose everything you have.

[Kurovski]

35. Yep. This isn't the first time Clinton said this.

But I hope it's the last time he'll have to say it again.

Too many folks claim to fear "sounding like the opposition". Or acting like them.

If, after thought and examination, the truth and 90% of the world is on your side, what in the fuck is the bloody hold up?

[calimary]

39. Indeed. I really don't want to hear another minute of "but, but, but, it

makes us no better than them. If we fight dirty, then we're no better than they are. It brings us down to their level. We should rise above it. We're better than that."

Well, please let me offer this:

I WANT TO BE LIKE THEM. I want to be EXACTLY like them. Because what they really are, with all this fighting dirty and hitting below the belt and sneaking in the brass knuckles and everything else, is - guess what? They're WINNERS. What they do gets THEM the win, not us. We play nice and we get ROLLED OVER AND LEFT BEHIND. FUCK playing nice. Haven't we tried that tactic long enough, and seen it play out unsuccessfully long enough, to realize it's NOT THE WAY TO WIN?

You don't govern if you don't WIN.

You don't get a chance to set the agenda if you don't WIN.

You don't get a chance to change the timbre and tone of political fighting if you don't WIN.

There's plenty of time to start adjusting vibrations and seizing the national dialogue and reeducating people about the benefits of doing business as ladies and gentlemen and not a bunch of velociraptors on steroids who want to give you a kerosene enema before they start the raping and pillaging.

That, and seeing a few of these people in fucking LEG IRONS once we get back into power...

We have to beat them, kick the crap out of them, and make it so vile to even think of voting republi-CON ever again. We need to treat them the way the Romans treated Carthage. Kick the shit out of them and then sow their ground with salt so NOTHING will grow. Poison the well. To do that, you have to be pretty bad-ass. You have to be willing to throw EVERY possible punch and not pull a single one, and not be afraid to attack their strengths. Showing some backbone would help.

We need to show them exactly the same conciliation and mercy and understanding and good sportsmanship as they show us. EXACTLY the same. If they hit us hard, we have to be ready AND WILLING to hit harder. In effect, we have to be the kind of "Xtians" they are. It's the only language they understand anymore. Being nice doesn't work. It just gets us bloodied and beaten and bullied further. Plus it shows that their template is what works.

How long is it going to take, how much ground do we have to lose, how many elections do we have to blow, before we get this? I'm amazed that, after everything William Jefferson Clinton has been through at the hands of these people, that only NOW, at this late date, is he even beginning to even fart in this direction. WHATTHEFUCK was all that about that they did to you, Bill? If it works for kkkarl rove, it can work for us if only we have the courage not to care what people will whine and scold about when we do so. And then, after we beat them, turn around and start talking about how it's time to turn the other cheek. And even then, while we do THAT, we should make sure that at least some of us keep our fingers crossed behind our backs. I trust the enemy to fight fair about as far as I can throw my house.

[Kurovski]

46. calimary, if there were an emoticon smilie

handing out a trophy, you'd have it right here, right now.

Clinton did talk this way at LEAST two years ago. In fact he even said something similar to what you wrote about "kicking the crap out of them". And he pointed out that "It's the only thing they understand."

Wolf, Judy W, and even the FUX News crackpots, AKA Corporate Media ho-bags must have had their coiffed heads up each others' bungholes when President Clinton spoke this way at dinners and such other events.

[calimary]

48. Cheers! Sorry I missed some of those Clinton exhortations.

I was probably just a little bit too busy bloviating...

I'm glad he said these things. I just wish he'd kept on saying those things again and again and again, like maybe every hour on the hour, or every time he had a mike or camera in front of his face. Most of the time, up til this, he's either been sounding too conciliatory or he's been battling illness.

Maybe he has good days and bad, and this was said on one of his good days. Whatever the case, he should talk like this a LOT more frequently. And our folks should be listening a LOT more carefully, and taking notes. And learning this lesson. And then applying it.

[Kurovski]

53. Agreed.

:-)

[kodi]

37. I advocate employing the "Chicago Way."

"You wanna know how you do it? Here's how, they pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue! That's the Chicago way, and that's how you get Capone! Now do you want to do that? Are you ready to do that?"

Sean Connery as Jim Malone in "the Untouchables."

[Kurovski]

47. Mike Malloy on his show yesterday

called Chicago Dems "asskickers".

As Connery also said in "The Untouchables"; "Thus endeth the lesson."

[Eric J in MN]

38. We need to gerrymander Illinois, New Mexico and Louisiana.

The Republicans gerrymandered Texas and Pennsylvania for the US House.

We need to gerrymander in return.

That is NOT hypocrisy.

It is self-defense.

[ChiciB1]

43. WELL, Billy Boy.... It's About Time!

When I think about all the time and energy I put in to get you elected and even drove 5 hours to see you in Gainesville, FL once, I was beginning to think you had "crossed over"!

So now, DON'T STOP THINKING ABOUT TOMORROW! You're a heavy hitter and we lowly Democrats need some home runs! What with your "love fest" with Daddy Bush, and Hillary kissing up to all the Repukes, I was kind of waiting for ya'll to hold a news conference saying you switched parties.

I can only HOPE you will start swinging that bat! And maybe you could convince Hillary to do something too!

[DemocracyInaction]

44. So then why is he calling Papa Bush "Daddy"??

Sorry, but tonight's news made me barf. I'm getting sick of this Clinton/Bush love fest. Tonight all the banter about Bill being Papa's son and Bill calling Papa "daddy" just did me in. Anyone who makes light of this criminal family, this vermin who are destroying middle class America and stuffing dollar bills in the g-strings of the wealthy, etc., doesn't amuse me. Clinton should be polite and nothing more. I don't want to meld with the republicans and particularly with the Bush clan. Sorry, Bill, but I don't look at what you are doing as "fighting".

[DancingBear]

45. I'll repeat this - for the upteenth time

"He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue."

It's quite simple, really.

[GreenArrow]

49. fight dirty like them.

And then become like them. Maybe there is another way.

[reformedrepub]

52. We had a Karl Rove once

His name was James Carville. Where has he gone? Where has Governor Dean been hiding, we havent seen much of him on the sunday shows lately? Why do the Dems continue to sit quiet and take it? Believe me, I know the Repubs wont stop until the Democratic Party is destroyed.

[wiggs]

51. Yes and no.

No need to stoop to lying, dishonesty, deceipt, bribery, and fixing intelligence the way this adminstration has.

This is a dangerous administration with the worst record ever....just being blunt, honest, forceful, truthful, clear, on point, organized, on the same page, coordinated, and visible would work. I agree with most of what the big guy said as long as he's not suggesting that we adopt the immoral and criminal tactics of the GOP.

[elsiesummers]

54. Bill is right/But saying this is political pandering to the base for HRC..

Bill is right but he is a political operator and it seems to me that all of the "hell yeahs" he gets from the likes of us serve to bolster Hillary among the base.

In my opinion this is a bit of the Howard Dean technique (and he's a shrewd politician, like Bill, too) - sort of Bill's version of "I want my country back."

It seems to me that Bill saying that Democrats need to fight like they do to win implies that Bill is capable of fighting to win, and therefore so is Hillary - that Bill's therefore not a "wuss" and Hillary is not a "wuss" ... like some other Democrats...and would therefore be a good candidate for those who want a Democrat capable of fighting a vicious fight.

While Bill is right, I still think getting these remarks in print is a shrewd bit of political calculus (on his part).

And I'm glad Bill Clinton and Howard Dean, clever politicians that they are, are on our side.

Because, I wouldn't want them against us.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tedoll78]

56. I agree. Let's fight f***in' dirty.

In all key districts and states, rent every bus and van in America for Election Days 2006 & 2008. Even if we don't use them and they sit in parking lots all day, we deny their usage to the GOP's forces.

Raise enough money and somehow convince a high-profile right-winger to run to the right of whomever they nominate. If the candidate splinters-off 1 or 2%, he's done his job.

Run billboards in super-red country taunting the Religious Reich: "the GOP has nominated 7 of the 9 current Supreme Court justices, and yet Roe still stands. You are being used. Send a message: vote for {other splinter candidate}." If this causes 1 or 2% of disillusionment on the Right, it's worth it.

Have Democratic governors do motorcades through Red country on Election Days. Stop traffic. Underhanded, yes, but many races are being decided by margins such that this may make a difference. And you'll be happy you did it when that senate is confirming your new blue president's judicial nominees:)

Use photoshopped images in our campaign commercials and have tiny fine print at the bottom saying "simulated image" for three seconds.

Actively try to get people to seduce GOP elected officials. Get physical evidence of these fornicators, and let this issue take-over their re-election campaigns.

Run commercials where ranking lists of states are shown with the states colored in Red and Blue. Example: education --> via the list, show voters that Red states are "stupider" than Blue ones. Then ask: "do you want your state to become more like Alabama {cue uber-rednecky banjo music}.. or Delaware? It's an easy choice. Vote Democrat."

...

Damn. I had come-up with a whole big list of dirty tricks, and they've mostly left my mind. I'll post more if I can think of any.

[seabeyond]

57. we are asking our politicians to blatantly lie to us

we are asking our politicians to use wedge issues to divide and conquer, we are asking our politicians to be a party of hate. we are asking our people to go after character in made up stories and outrageous comments

this is who we want our people to be

democrats that say we need to get in the mud with republicans, never clearly tell me what they are suggesting. are we to throw out any honesty and integrity we may have left to have a bloody fight with each

and we see this as a win

really i want to know exactly what is meant by using the same tactics as republicans

[Dr Fate]

59. Well, for starters, you can just tell the truth about them.

That's the difference- we dont have to make stuff up about them.

[magellan]

61. Hear, hear

I won't vote for a party that abandons the principles of truth, justice and respect to win a fight. We've got that right now in BushCo and the Rethug majority.

But neither will I support a party that sits on its ass and lets bullies steamroll them and this country.

The Dems have "walking softly" near about down pat. They need to learn the "carry a big stick" part.

[seabeyond]

67. i am all for aggressive speaking out the truth

i am not shy, as you could see in any of my reports. but then that alone, speaking out in truth.........makes us different from repugs and we arent playing dirty, or in the dirt with them or anything else. just running a tough campaign. to say play dirty right along with repug implies the dishonesty in running a campaign. give back what they give, implies we play like them

to have a hard ass campaign that gets in their face on each and every contradiction, hypocrisy, untruth they spew is a whole nother story i fully support

[mtnsnake]

111. By getting down & dirty it doesn't mean telling lies. It means doing

to them what they've done to us, only we won't be lying in our descriptions. It means we'll finally put ourselves on a level playing field for once in our lives.

Clinton is right. We've been far too nice and we're getting rewarded by losing elections to dimwits.

[Dr Fate]

58. I HEAR that, Big Dog! n/t

n/t

[zann725]

60. ...the same Clinton that Barbara Bush recently referred to as her "son?"

The same Clinton who (despite his recent heart surgery), slept on the cold hard floor of an airplane for hours so that Poppy could have the only bed available?

Sorry, but I can no longer bring myself to take advice from Big
(NOT BLUE) Dog any more.

[Pepperbelly]

83. whatever ...

I am certain he will become an insomniac worrying over your inability to take his advice.

Personally, his refusal to push the old man out of the bed and onto the floor was nothing at all to be ashamed of. There is no call to be an asshole just for the sake of being an asshole or to make a juvenile point.

[Andromeda]

62. Gawwwwwd, how I miss him.

:cry:

[whistle]

64. Jesus, is that what heart by-pass surgery does to a person....

[Justice]

68. His Motives Don't Matter - He Speaks The Truth

Republicans will do ANYTHING to win. They don't care if they win by cheating, by lying or worse. They don't care if they win by a slim margin. You watch, Bolton will be confirmed by a vote or two -- they will take that as a win and call it a mandate. For pete's sake, these people are still fighting the election results in Washington state in the governor's race (I keep wondering why no one is telling them we need closure and need to move on).

I don't care that it was Clinton who said it or what his motives are. He is correct. Everyday on every issue, we must fight.

[marions ghost]

69. when dealing with the ruthless and amoral...

it takes strategy --
Now that they are basking in their glory, revelling in their nefarious "achievements," and taking for granted that Democrats are pushovers...and living under the illusion that All is Well...

Let the Sleeping Tiger wake up and surprise them.

[depakid]

70. Maybe someone ought to have told Kerry

that back in August....

Oh, wait- somebody did- but he just didn't listen.

[Eliot Spitzer 2006]

84. During the same speech, Bill Clinton also said that Democrats should ...

...consider private accounts for Social Security and not just dismiss them out of hand.

[Pepperbelly]

87. I didn't see that in the linked article ...

and if something regarding SS was said, I suspect that it bears little resemblence to that characterization.

[cestpaspossible]

88. source?

[Red State Prisoner]

85. That's right!

Being that we're in the minority and in danger of becoming even more so in 2006, a radical new approach has to take place. Democrats have been weakened to the point of near insignificance in congress. We can't keep walking the line of civility and expect to replenish our dwindling numbers. If you're a representative in a tight race, take the damn gloves off and punch away. There is absolutely nothing left to lose. Better to go down swinging than smiling while you're opponent pummels you to the ground. I've grown sick and tired of watching Dems giving a conciliatory smile and wave while the GOP celebrates another victory with childish taunts and arrogant proclamations of message superiority.

[bunny planet]

89. The beauty of it is, we don't even have to lie like they do to fight dirty

All we have to do is tell the truth about them, their 'values' and actions are dirty and shameful enough to give us all the ammunition we need. Just look at what is out there in the last two weeks; Delay squashes legislation that would end child labor and child sex rings in the Mariana Islands, What's his name has sex with non-consenting farm animals and claims everybody growing up on the farm in Georgia does it, Some other Republican chokes his young mistress in a hotel room, Dr.Hager an appointee in a position to alter women's reproductive rights is accused by his wife of having raped her anally throughout their marriage and paying her for sexual acts. Just a few choice examples of Republican values in this strange day and age.

[Hubert Flottz]

99. They Got "MORALITY"!

Too bad they never use any of it in their own homes and behind closed doors!

[chicagojoe]

95. I have a switch which I can turn on and off.

If I turn it on, I am capable of being A BIGGER ASSHOLE than Rove could dream of being. Therefore, I'm applying for the job.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chyjo]

103. Bill Clinton is a sell out

If he hadn't done everything he could to replant the party in the political center not to mention turning it more corporate maybe we wouldn't have so much trouble being a credible opposition. I'm so sick of hearing people talk about Bill Clinton like he was the savior of the party. He was no savior, he was a Quisling, he was a sellout.

On edit:
Oh yeah and our conservative supreme court is actually to the left of Bill Clinton, actually being against executing the mentally retarded. Hell of a Primary move "Big Dog". Lots of class.

[neuvocat]

104. How about starting with the media?

One of the most brilliant tactics I have ever seen was the way Kerry handled Tim Russert last year: Russert was dogging Kerry about the supposed loss of jobs under his economic plan and Kerry pointed out that he essentially said the same thing about Clinton and was completely wrong.

Maybe the Dems are nervous about the lack of press on the air but a good way to fight that is to simply point out that the media must have some sort of vested interest with the republicans not to have an opposition candidate on their show.

After all there is the net, and word can get out very, very quickly.

[bgb217]

106. Clinton has a point, but....

I hate it that we would ever have to stoop to their low level to win. Makes me sick.

[Ksec]

116. BINGO !!!!!!!!!!!!! N/T

[Ksec]

117. but WE HAVE TO DO IT SO IT CANT BE TRACED BACK TO US !!

IE Swiftboat guttertrash

[loritooker]

118. I love the Big Dog. I really do. My son was born on his birthday

and I love the spirit. But in my opinion he was, in some ways, a terrible president. Still, I love his spirit.

I had a dream recently about Bill Clinton. Now its odd because in life I didn't have much to do with him except to vote for him; I don't think of him all that much, I'm not an aficionado, BUT: in my dream I remember his forehead. He was on some steps, four or five above me, and I wanted to ask him some questions, and he didn't want to talk to me; he turned away from me. His forehead was mottled brown, And I read somewhere that when a man has a heart attack he loses something, but in Bill's case, bless him, I think he gained something. Anyway, in my dream, he did not want to talk to me.

I think the current * administration frightens him to his core. He is a political animal so he keeps on keepin' on. He is doing what he can. He IS about love, but he is in conflict.

Hey listen, YOU are better than Bill. Your ethics are more fine tuned, more IN-TUNE. So take Bill as your cue, but don't idealize the poor man. Go out and do what you have to do.

Love,

Lori

[stickdog]

119. I concur. Hit 'em hard and hit 'em often.

Political guerrilla warfare wins.