What is wrong with Bill and Hillary?

[katmondoo]

Now Hillary is joining up with Newt Gingrich for health care. Bill Clinton with Poppy Bush and now Hillary with Newt. I feel betrayed.

[napi21]

1. It's called working together.

Although lots of people on DU think the Dems should stay strong and stick to their positions no matter what, most people who do not pay a lot of attention to everyday politics really want the fighting and mutual stubborness to stop.

Like it or not, both sisdes need to attract the majority of folks in the middle. They're looking for a little common sense and logic in politics. They like people who can say well, lets find some common ground here.

I think that's what your seeing with Bill and Hill.

[CWebster]

4. Pathetic. Does the Democratic party stand for anything?

Only those who truly don't believe in the case the Democrats have to put before the people feel the need to adopt Neo-con tones to attract votes.

These apologies are a humiliation to party credibility in that they demand prostitution of everything the party stands behind.

The Clintons are opportunists who are enamored with power and will do anything, even triangulate the issues away, to maintain political capital.

Circumstances desperately call for new leadership of the party to reinvigorate meaning, direction and party identity.

[Adelante]

9. The party seems to be moving in this direction

Dean is backing Bernie Sanders, right? Not that Bernie is in the same class as Newt. But overall it may be happening simply in the interest of getting something, anything, done in Congress. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with it, either, CWebster, but I can see why they might be doing it. Four more years of deadlock isn't good and since the Repubs seem to be pulling back from Bushco, this all might be part of some pragmatic seduction policy. I don't blame the Clintons, since the party appears to be taking this path.

[CWebster]

11. Most likely Sanders doesn't need the Dems help

But the Dems may need Bernie--who has been doing just fine for many years in VT. That is a lot of bullshit posturing.

Deadlock is preferrable to the gutting of Social Security and if that is what it takes --so be it. Chances are most would prefer the deadlock to the axe. Accusations of obstructionism are little more than an unwillingness of the Dems NOT to go goosestepping behind every Neo-con scheme, not deadlock. Quit buying into that crap.

So, in that case, why would it be advantageous to make a deal with the devil?

You mean the party taking the Clinton's path, don't you? It has really shown to be a winning strategy so far, hasn't it?

[redqueen]

12. Deadlock is DEFINITELY better than gutting SS...

and better than many other horrible things they've done.

The Clintons have always been centrists. Nothing new there.

[Adelante]

13. I didn't say it was advantageous

I said it looks like this is the way the party is going. And it does.

[WI_DEM]

31. I see supporting Bernie Sanders akin to supporting Jeffords

Jeffords didn't leave the GOP and become a Democrat--he was an independent who caucused with the Dems, just as Sanders has been doing in the House.

[digno dave]

22. what a concept

[ComerPerro]

28. Yeah but the problem is Dems are the only ones who do this

And Republicans know it.

We keep conceding to them and finding compromise, but they never compromise with us.

It has to go both ways, but it doesn't.

[Hippo_Tron]

30. I understand working together, but this is NEWT

You know Newt, the guy who totally sabatoged Clinton's agenda and led the call for Clinton's impeachment. Poppy I can understand. Newt I can't.

[saracat]

32. There is NO such thing as bipartisanship. They have sliced our throats

every time we have trusted them. Sorry. This is why I would have a hard time supporting Hillary. This is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. I went to a luncheon with Newt and heard his health are babble. I was so angry, I walked out.This was an event for mostly Doctors and the Doc called him a liar to his face. He even looking for "common ground" with this bastard is an affront to decency.

[hlthe2b]

2. to play devils advocate, perhaps to neutralize the rabid RW?

Sort of hard to villainize them as the RW has done for so long without also criticizing their own, given this relationship? :shrug:

[earth mom]

3. They're sellouts. eom

[MADem]

5. Nothing--triangulation WORKS

People are stupid. If someone they hate is associated with someone they love, it mitigates the hate, and if they are pissed off enough, it can totally cancel it out. The Newt lovers, and there are many out there, will hold their nose and vote for Hillary if they can find one thing in her platform that really resonates, and if they feel her opponent doesn't "sufficiently" represent their interests.

It's all about voter power, your vote matters, and that sort of thing. And the people most susceptible to triangulation are rabid ideologues, oddly enough.

[Norquist Nemesis]

6. I feel your pain.

From what I can tell, most of those who are in the business of politics see it as a career game. Winners and losers playing on a chessboard with things that affect people's lives.

We, the people, however are feeling left out except every two and four years because no matter what we say/do, it's not our decision between elections. So, we feel helpless and out of control as we sit on the sidelines watching the decision-makers. Lack of control, inability to have a say when it concerns your life are some of the worst feelings in the world.

[karynnj]

7. Shouldn't we wait to see the fruits of a collaboration before condemning

The Democrats can't do anything alone. We have no power base in the federal government. If Bill or Hillary can work with controversial Republicans to create something good, they should be commended. If what they produce is bad, we should attack IT, not the people. Then when considering what we think of a person, look at what they did.

[CWebster]

10. no matter how far the Clintons bow and scrape

they are such damaged goods that even an official memo from the sneering nitwit himself couldn't call off the shock troops.

[mourningdove92]

8. I call it "neutralizing" the opposition.

they need to continue to do just that.

[redqueen]

14. How is she joining up for health care?

Setting up some program to ensure for-profit coverage is protected, and a truly SANE system (which wouldn't be so profitable for healthcare corporations or insurance companies) stays far away from the table?

Gee... I dunno... why would they do that?

[Last Lemming]

15. I think you can make a rule

politics without compromise is politics for the right wing christian conservative

[katmondoo]

16. I agree, working together is a good idea but

can you trust a Newt and a Bush? I want to believe some good can be accomplished.

[Donna Zen]

17. Per Gore Vidal

The Clintons talk left and govern right.

Sorry, all the excuses in the world will not change Hillary's voting record: Patriots Act, IWR, and national ids. She never stands up unless it is to massage the right wing. It was Hillary who along with Shays put a seal of approval on the paperless voting machines.

Need more?

Look_I'm sure that those who are rooting for her win 1) say that she is a wonderful person/ OK, as a private citizen she is friendly and very nice, great, but that will not undo the damage she her votes have done 2) proclaim that this is "hard ball" politics and I am too stupid to "get it"/ personally what I get is that politics as usual is running the country I love into the ground and people are dying. I know the difference between what is right and what is wrong... and if I ever become so cynical as to embrace a phony war and a phony president as somehow "smart" I will have forfeited my membership in the human race. 3) and then there are the gender specialists/ hey, I know that Hillary is a woman. Race and gender are not litmus tests for my vote. With a different last name and a different set of chromosomes, Hillary would not even be mentioned in progressive circles. Think about that.

I never posted in the "spineless Dem" threads, but I do remember who was willing to support policies I care about. This is not personal and I don't hate the Clintons. I do agree with Scott Ritter when he said: Hillary is symptomatic of all that is wrong with the Democratic party.

[faithnotgreed]

19. perhaps more accurate: they talk center-left and govern center-right

love gore vidal

[Lydia Leftcoast]

18. Since when have the Republicans ever played

"nice and bipartisan"? Since when have they tried to neutralize the very few left initiatives by triangulating?

All I've seen from them for 25 years is attack, lie, smear, repeat, rinse. And it has worked, as most Democrats have responded by cringing and saying, "No, no, I'm not a liberal. Nobody here but us moderates!"

I can just see how the current Democratic approach would work in dealing with the Nazis: "Okay, you can use the Jews as slave labor, as long as you don't kill them."

Or with Stalin. "Okay, you can send political prisoners to Siberia as long as you give them adequate food and clothing for a cold climate. You can confiscate the kulaks' farms as long as you let them be laborers on their former land."

The opposition to the Social Security proposals is the ONLY instance that I can remember of the Dems standing united in opposition to a horrible Republican initiative. In greater or lesser numbers, they have gone along with EVERY OTHER fiendish plot.

The Dems have let the Republicans brand them as wishy-washy, and it seems that they have internalized the stereotype. You can always find a Zell Miller or Joe Lieberman to go on TV and talk about how other Dems aren't being bipartisan enough.

Some on this board denigrate the members of the Progressive Caucus or outspoken types like Boxer, Byrd, Kennedy, and Feingold as being "too far left." Talk about internalizing Repubican memes! If being against war mongering, being for universal health care, being for controls on corporate predatory behavior, being for preservation of the environment, being for a strong social safety net--if all those things are "too far left" for the Democratic Party or for the American people, then I guess I have neither a political nor a national home.

I maintain that the members of the Progressive Caucus and the few fighting Senators should be setting the pace, should be showing the American people what they stand for, and should be giving their colleagues assertiveness lessons.

Let's stop adoring politicians just because they have name recognition. I want to ask each and every one of them, "What have you done for the American people lately?"

[CWebster]

20. Bravo!

Here is a good link for the apologist bowers and scrapers. See if they can connect the dots.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3635557&mesg_id=3635557

[fujiyama]

21. Don't worry

Since both Hillary and Newt have presidential ambitions, it will hurt them both with their respective parties. The pukes aren't going to like their candidate "working together" with Hillary anymore than we like them working with Newt.

So, in the end, hopefully the presidential ambitions of both will get destroyed in the process.

[Piperay]

23. Ambition

they are running for President in 2008. :puke:

[DerekG]

24. It doesn't matter---most DUers are still going to vote (D)

I frankly don't care about "lesser-evilism" any more; these Vichy bastards--the corporatists and war-mongers--should share the fate of Daschle and Gephardt. The discontent I have with Ralph Nader is that he wasn't *enough* of a spoiler; what is required is a third-party candidate who would scare the living hell out of these rightist collaborators.

[Donna Zen]

25. corporate nationists

~Arundhati Roy coined this term. Hammer-nail.

As long as we vote for people who have voted for this shit; we will get more shit. It is only logical. Why worry how you vote if the party's going to tell us to get in line.

"Hillary's running and every Democrat better support her," said Donna Brazile.

[bvar22]

26. A Health Care Plan that Hillary and Newt...

...could agree upon would resemble the Republican Plan for the Prescription Drug Benefit....a HUGE giveaway for the Corporate CEO,s and Investors paid for by RAISING taxes on the Middle Class (or postponing the inevitable Tax Hike by borrowing the money to be paid back later by our Children!)


The word COMPROMISE means both sides get something. WHAT have the Republicans given up? Capitulation by the Democrats IS NOT COMPROMISE!!!

[applegrove]

27. Health care is a winner issue. Newt is just an opportunist. He has

no role to play with neocons.. perhaps he sees himself as taking back the Repub party from the neos. Hillary is smart to get conservative support for any sort of health care discussion. It is an issue that could win the election. Most Americans want to see the system improved.

I also think Bill & Hillary take notes on all the people they mix with.

[Disturbed]

29. Capitulation by the Democrats IS NOT COMPROMISE!!!

Nuff said!!!!!!!!!

[Gloria]

33. Newt Gingrich is no longer an elected official...why enable him? Why not

"team up" with Kerry's health plan for kids for starters???

[Donna Zen]

34. I wondered about that myself.

And since we are borrowing over a billion dollars a day... where's the money?

Fi fy fo fum... me smell a run for office to come.

[LittleClarkie]

35. Why do I get the feeling it was Newt that moved

I can't imagine him doing this a few years ago.

Which one is moving to the center? Is it a race? Maybe we'll get Newt for Prez and Hillary for vice prez.

[blondeatlast]

36. What is wrong with George and Laura?

Joining up with Ken Lay for the Energy Bill...

[Geek_Girl]

37. Republicans are getting low ratings

So they need to chum up with Clinton's. Hillary needs to get the moderate/conservatives to go her way in '08 so the Clinton's are chumming up with the republicans. It's political antics at it's finest or worst depending on how you look it.


Either way I don't like it.

[spanone]

38. They are Professional Politicians. They are Politicking.

[bush_is_wacko]

39. Actually Hillary has been hobnobbing with pubs from the very

beginning of her career in politics. She helped fake the Nixon investigation to keep information out of the public venue as far as I'm concerned SHE is a huge part of the problem. Bill....I don't have a clue what his motives are but I'm beginning to suspect he's been on board with the pubs for quites some time too.

[unkachuck]

40. betrayed is the word....

....what has Hillary ever done for you?....what has Newt ever done for you?....

....any legislation spawned from their healthcare union would only serve corporate America interests, not our healthcare needs....

....this is corporate America distracting progressives again....