LET'S CONSIDER THE SIGNIFICANCE OF WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW.

[leanin_green]

First of all, I've been away from DU for awhile because I wasn't diggin' a lot of what was being posted. But tonight, I've read a few posts that make me believe that some have finally come, albeit, kicking, screaming and whining to some constructive conclusions about the nature of what is happening to our country.

We are beginning to see just how deep all of this truly runs. The tentacles of this growing monster are continuing to find it's way throughout every fabric of our society. Can we all agree now that the old ways will no longer work? Everything is either controlled or becoming so. Even many of our beloved party have given in to it's influence. I mean, how many of you truly believe that the body politic is relevant any longer? That there is a fair voting process? That policy is made with the people in mind and not corporate/financial interests?

Now, I'm going to suggest something that may not be popular, but it needs to be said.

Is it possible that America is paying for it's past sins? That all the blood, carnage, broken treaties, genocide and greed that fueled the growth and expansion of this country from the Atlantic to the Pacific; that the debt has been called? That in the natural order that is natural law, we as a nation, are reaping everything we have sown so long ago? Am I saying that everything we have done is based upon evil? Of course not. But many things we have done as a nation in the name of progress, if we're honest, can now be seen for the wrong it has caused. Why do you think the right fights so hard against what they deem revisionist history? These are people who can't give up the illusion and the dream that they believe is America. These are the same spirits who would of wholeheartedly swallowed the the belief in "Manifest Destiny" so long ago.

No life or nation can exist without some wrong doing or other. For every cause there is an equal and opposite reaction. It is true that we have over our history tried to right many of the wrongs we've done. I'm sure this has alleviated many of the harsher debts that we could have paid.

I mean, how long did we think we could continue to screw over so many people, races, genders, and nations for our own cause before some of the same was visited on us? We've had it good for so long. Our country has never suffered like many other countries in the world. Was our country devastated by either world war? Has terrorism really been a part of our daily existence like it is for so many others? No, the only way for America to face the music is for something to happen from within. For the one thing we hold most sacred above all others to be threatened and usurped over us. Freedom and the right to individual determination. Our freedoms are becoming more and more curtailed under the guise of security. Soon, our rights to determine our own lives will eventually follow.

There is a sickness in our society. The infection of fear. It is being injected into the very life blood of our culture. It is those who are in the control of the reins of power who hold the syringe. And the whole country is strapped down and made to believe it is medicine. The original inhabitants of this land know of that fear. They know the terror and the sorrow of loss of their way of life. Can you feel it America? Can you feel it spreading in the national body? Are you numb to it's influence? Has the terror and sorrow for the loss of our way of life begun to sink in? Has the veil of illusion of the "American Dream" been lifted from your sleepy eyes? So many secrets, so many lies. Suppressed and repressed within the American psyche that it only was a matter of time before we began to lose touch with reality. How long did you think it could go on? We have been sick for so long. We NEED a breakdown in order to rid ourselves of all the unconscious poison we've been kept hidden for so long. We're addicts, abusers, sadists and masochists, sufferers of delusions of grandeur about who we are. We've only been a nation for a little over two hundred years, who do we think we are, anyway?

We have a lot to answer for as a nation in the grand scheme of things. Do I take pleasure in what is happening? Not hardly. I will suffer also. Perhaps part of my karma is tied up in the nation's. It won't be pleasant, but it IS coming. It's time for all of us who understand to come together, acknowledge all the possibilities, help those that are given to us and do something against the current madness when the opportunity presents itself. We need to identify our true leaders, support them, and be ready to help the defenseless when the time comes. Justice will be served one way or the other. We just have to hope she is not too severe.

[NVMojo]

1. Well, I can't say this thought hasn't crossed my mind a time or two ...

especially lately as I have been working closely with Native Americans ....

[calimary]

28. Yeah, me too.

Maybe we're collectively getting what we deserve? Oh, geez, how Whoopi Goldberg of me. How Maggie Gyllenhall. Although, I think they have a point. It's a shame, though, that those of us who've pushed against this, and fought against it, and tried to bring other people to The Light, and to rectify the wrongs, are screwed as ferociously as are those who perpetrated, enabled, or excused them, or did nothing to stop them.

Sigh...

Maybe it is karma. I was just having an argument with myself about this. I prayed to God and told Him I felt really lonely - like maybe He isn't there anymore - at least not for me, at least not when it's me on the phone, or knocking on His door. or asking for His help or His blessing - and it's not even for me most of the time. Just seems like Nobody's home anymore.

[madrchsod]

2. you are correct in what you say

great civilations thru out history have done the same thing as we have. history has shown great civilations rise and fall and it`s really a matter of how and when. i think ours will be short lived,within this century we will fall and how far we fall is not written yet.

[NorCalDem]

3. I think if nothing else...

the wealthy class willingness to sell-out our countries manufacturing and labor base (i.e. outsourcing, off-shore tax shelters, etc.) is beginning to take a serious toll on our economy. Globalization works to level the playing field, and America as the richest country can only crumble to meet everyone else in the middle. I think it should be clear to most by now that capitalism is a flawed system, just like socialism. In a utopian view, both systems prove equally viable, but human nature (in the form of greed, envy, and most importantly HATE) always steps in to F**K things up. Seems to me like we're destined for trouble.

[alittlelark]

5. ...and that had what to do w/ the O/P??

[alittlelark]

4. I wish I could say you were wrong... but I cannot

I'm going to bed now...with all of these thoughts swirling through my brain.....

[blogbear]

8. "Swirling through my brain" too like a whirlwind or vacuum where sooner

or later everyting gets sucked into..

[undergroundpanther]

6. And why this debt...

Because good people who saw how much it would cost us to do these things stood by and failed to act on behalf of the right thing to do,failed to car to show compassion,to risk their status and wealth..]

,Good people who saw wrong happening in the halls of power and behind closed doors all across America but than turned away,rationalized it said if I just go along,back down say nothing.. I'll be spared ,when it the fall is taken by some black person, some pagan, some poor person,some gay, some trans person,fat guy,dissident,mentally ill or freak who'll caught the boot in the face,and I can stay comfortable and not risk my ass..This good person who refused to stand and stop the game ,call a foul and expose bullies and human rights abuses,pollution,corruption,fraud..staying quiet trying not to be implicated he is compromised, and he defends himself when their fellow human beings was ground down...

This is the debt..the failure to care about the welfare of fellow human beings,and the health of the planet we share.Our greed,selfishness denial and dreams of being someone BIG has made us very small hearted. And it shows when the most rich and corrupt country that lives off stolen resources fails to feed it's own citizens with the booty the elites stole from other countries.

The price of maintaining a top down hierarchy and authority game is caused by the top's excess being unchecked by good people with self respect..This sends more of a burden to the bottom..So for the elites when they lose ,they lose power,their lives,status'legacy' and reputations,and face quick death for they have no conscience to feel guilt with..

but for the citizens that compromised with these"elites,kissed the bosses ass for fear of poverty o so the company could get away with fraud or pollution,corruption generation after generation These citizens lose their souls and freedom gradually their demise is slow and very painful, The truth of what is lost it comes out in their lives of quiet desperation..filling up the hole where love should be.

[Renegade Paladin]

7. Bah.

Karma is for the superstitious. If we're going down, it's because the Bushies are dragging us down, not because of anything else.

[Conservativesux]

11. Karma is nonsense: What did the Indians do to deserve the invasion..

of thier lands by the whites and the Spanish ?

A: Nothing.

We are reaping what modern day people, mostly wealthy people have sewn, not some payback for how this country was overcome by the white man.

Hell, most Americans have some Native American blood in thier viens.

The rest of this "theory" is a usless bunch of nonsense that serves no purpose.

Think about it: Do you see the rich suffering?

No.

Enough said.

[NEOBuckeye]

9. The next two decades will be absolutely critical for the US

Many, MANY chickens are coming home to roost for us, including:

-Peak Oil and Decline, certain to result in a full-blown energy crisis when pump prices skyrocket, or when oil simply becomes unavailable altogether.
-Infrastructure Breakdown -- Crumbling bridges, highways, railways, dams and other public works have gone too long without maintennance. You can only put these things off so long.
-Peak Fresh Water -- There is no place that will feel the brunt of this more than the hyper-developing Southwest. Don't get too comfortable in sunbelt vicinity of Phoenix or Vegas.
-Global Warming & Climate Shifts -- the North Atlantic current shutting down could leave the Northeast US out in the cold. Literally.
-Economic Collapse and a "Grand Depression" that could make the Great Depression look like a minor recession, likely be brought about once Asia and the EU get tired of funding our ceaseless warmongering.

And I'm sure there's something else I forgot.

You can take a small measure of comfort in the fact that the Corporatists, Neo-cons and Right Wingers in general have absolutely nothing on any of these problems. That's the good news. The bad news is that the Corporatists, Neo-cons and Right Wingers in general have absolutely nothing on any of these problems, and for this reason, will do everything they can to deny their existence, out of their fears of the unknown and loss of control.

Serious Grass-Roots "people power" can be our only salvation from this mess.

But I'm sure that you didn't need anyone to point that out.

[BigBearJohn]

10. More importantly, we need to focus on what is right -- focus on the light

not the dark.

To quote from "Brother Sun, Sister Moon"

If you want your dream to be
Build it slow and surely

Small beginnings greater ends
Heartfelt work grows purely

If you want to live life free
Take your time go slowly

Do few things but do them well
Simple joys are holy

Day by day stone by stone
Build your secret slowly

Day by day you'll grow too
You'll know heaven's glory

If you want your dream to be
Build it slow and surely

Small beginnings greater ends
Heartfelt work grows purely

If you want to live life free
Take your time go slowly

[funflower]

13. That's beautiful.

Thanks!

[BigBearJohn]

14. I'm glad someone "got it." Thanks to YOU too!!!!

:pals:

[CantGetFooledAgain]

22. Lovely... (n/t)

[DerekG]

12. Analogous to a perception of the Civil War

What the abolitionist warrior John Brown foresaw was what a radicalized Lincoln would articulate in his second inaugural address: that the death and devastation wrought by the Civil War was divine punishment for a national crime that spanned more than two centuries, a system of slavery so barbarous that even Egypt would have balked.

To even think of our campaigns in the Philippines, and Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and Vietnam, and Iraq, and the six decades of "humanitarian interventions" in Chile, Iran, Indonesia, El Salvador (et al, alas)...well, let's just say I'm not surprised that a piper would be comin' to collect.

[Old and In the Way]

15. Bad decisions based on oil interests 30 years ago.

Our foreign policy has been driven by oil company interests, since Bush/Reagan. We should have taken steps to diversify our energy policy, based on legitimate national security interests....but Bush Republicanism has put the interests of their benefactors ahead of the interests of the American people.

Our SOL in unsustainable, in light of off other countries that now have the economic advantage, in terms of labor costs and market potential. If we had reinvented our economy in 2000, maybe the outcome wiould be different....unfortnately, we had precisely the wrong person installed as pResident. His failure will hasten our own.

[LdyGuique]

16. Whether or not karma transcends time and space, it is stilll a

viable concept idea to explain the debt of cause and effect. It also underlays social and political behavior. We've incurred a huge debt to the original inhabitants of this land. We've not changed our essential behavior that caused this debt. The arrogance and greed that was present in our earliest colonial times is still present today. This is not surprising.

The original colonial invaders came out of Europe and Europeans acted similarly throughout the world. Entire tribal groups have been exterminated or forced to undergo profound changes to their societies during the past several hundred years. Slavery is an ongoing issue, the exploitation of illegal immigrants is only the most recent version in this country.

We are at a tipping point. We can either start making amends and viewing our cultural diversity through new eyes that includes protecting the weakest or we can continue behavior that will eventually cause severe crisis and disorder. Personally, I think that crisis and disorder will win for the near term future. Humankind has a lot of growing up to do on a worldwide basis. The inherent selfishness that was crucial to survival is becoming a handicap.

I feel that civil war will erupt in the U.S. within 2 decades. It remains to be seen what resides on the other side.

[PATRICK]

17. Sounds like poor victimology

as we raise our collective umbrella to Armageddon and grimace- instead of acting as we should.

By the way, at the moment, WE are the true leaders you seem to be waiting for. As disappointing as that may be. A lot of the historical crap comes from the traditional taint of whatever moral disease immigrants brought with them. Since native American tribalism carried on simpler ills that Europeans had "grown beyond" they were massacred with indignant impunity.
At that stage social brutalization is very widespread. Still, the heart of the matter is a dangerous, respected, largely untouched minority of cowardly profiteers and overlords enlisting bullies and suckers and playing off people against each other, reveling in the naive apathy of the decent majority.

[leanin_green]

19. Spare me the anthropological slant.

I've been in that class too and am not sure I agree with the linear progression of societies. Tribalism isn't outgrown but overpopulated. Tribes become larger communities, but does that mean tribalism no longer exists in such cultures? Tribes aren't defined by nomadic tendencies or sitting around the campfire. It's a group mentality. Take a look at any metropolitan society and you'll still see tribes. There called gangs or clicks or subcultures. They define themselves by territorial behaviors, like-mindedness and group identification.

I only used the Native Americans because it's a stark example about the point I was trying to make. That's only one example in a myriad of others that this country has to answer for.

[JNelson6563]

18. Well a mystical answer is intriguing

but the more practical answer is that our government continues to make bad choices and they reverberate throughout.

Stupid is as stupid does.

It's almost as if they are following the stupidest advice ever given: Give no thought to the 'morrow.

Julie

[dbt]

20. Welcome back!

I've been wondering about Karma since the Formerly Supreme Court handed this country over to bu$hler and the handful of people (for lack of a better word) who control him. From where I hunker down, it looks like the payback is glacially slow in coming. There have been months when I've wondered if Karma hasn't been repealed somehow!

The meager portion of Justice that's been meted out to Dear Leader so far seems so thin as to be a mockery. The country as a whole has suffered far worse than those who command it. Things seem horribly out of balance.

Recently, I heard my Dad's voice from somewhere Over There, reminding me that a storm which takes a long time to gather will take a long time to pass.

Do you suppose the Universe has been delaying the Payback in order to give us, as a nation, time to come to our senses and repudiate those who presume to speak for us? Is that Thunder I hear?

[leanin_green]

25. Well, consider this possibility.

I believe that the karma is wrapped up in the likeness of GWB and the neocon/dominionists that support him.

Like I said before. Our karmic debts are most likely to occur through something internal. Consider the fact that our government, one way or another, has been the source for so much misery within our own borders and the borders of others. It seems ironic and poetic that the American people will suffer at the hands of that same government. And let's not leave out natural disasters as recompense, either. The Earth has yet to deal with us in full measure for how we've treated her the last two hundred odd years. Hang on dbt!!! It's going to be a bumpy ride!

[elehhhhna]

21. Kicked to Greatest page.

[Festivito]

23. Or, Tecumseh's curse is to NOT kill this zero-year despot.

I thick is was Tecumseh who cursed us in that our presidents elected on any year ending in zero would die. Perhaps as a curse he doesn't kill Bush and Reagan, but does kill Kennedy, FDR, and Lincoln.

The original post Karma idea interests me. Must we acknowledge and atone for our sins? Do you think presentation will turn the evil ones back?

Perhaps the sin is even deeper. That we still deal with the devil to make ourselves god.

I see a fight between the givers and the takers. And, I hope we give them hell.

[leanin_green]

26. Actually, it Tecumseh brother, the medicine man.

But that curse was closely aligned with the twenty year conjunction cycle of Saturn/Jupiter. All the presidents that have died according to the curse, the conjunction has been in an earth sign. It was foretold that one would come and break the line of presidential deaths in office. That was Reagan. However, the conjunction happened in an air sign. This was a sign to the native peoples that the "Great Purification" was at hand.

Now, GWB was elected when the conjunction was in an earth sign again, so I'm not sure if the curse continues or not(one can only hope).

[starroute]

24. The real question is what we *do* in this situation

I've been chewing this problem over since about 1959 -- when it was becoming obvious even to an average Mad Magazine-reading twelve-year-old like myself that the United States was throwing its weight around in the world in ways that weren't healthy and would ultimately come back to haunt us.

I was reading a lot of historical novels at that age, and I became obsessed with the parallels I saw in certain historical periods. What do you do if you're a French aristocrat on the eve of the Revolution? Do you throw away your velvet coat and sign up with the peasants? Do you stay where you are but encourage your fellow aristocrats to adopt more enlightened attitudes? And when the Revolution comes and the guillotine starts to fall on your old friends and relations, which side are you on then?

It's one thing to anticipate it being payback time and imagine yourself suffering gracefully as America goes gurgle-gurgle down the tubes. But in practice, things don't work out that easily. There are always hard decisions to be made, sides to be chosen, family ties or friendships that are doomed to be sundered. If this country splits down the middle, DU will split right along with it. And which side will you be on then?

What are you prepared to give up? How much of the old order do you need to hold on to, even if that means going down with it? Who are you really, in your heart of hearts -- and what price are you willing to pay to remain the person you take yourself to be?

[leanin_green]

27. These are good observations, so. . .

let me clarify some of my meaning.

As far as revolution goes, I don't believe in violent overthrows. I know it has been the way down through history, but the rise and decline of cultures is always the product of bloody revolution. I'm part of what I call the "bridge generation." That's the generation that was born at the very end of the baby boomer period. Too young to partake of the 60's, Vietnam, The Summer of Love and all, and too old to be a GenXer. We came of age during the 70's. But while most everyone else was part of the "me" generation, I was still influenced by the 60's message and considered myself a part of the "we" generation.

You see, I believe that the message then applies today. So I'm "tuning in and dropping out." By tuning in I'm watching everything that is going on. I work to keep informed. I'm dropping out of what passes for our culture. I'm making an effort to not support what I feel is part of what is responsible for the way things are in our country. That's corporatism, capitalism, competition and the like. I'm learning to become self-reliant and independent from the system. I'm "in the world but not of it." I'm beginning to detach emotionally from the goings on. I'm only one small man and the only power I have is in my purchasing power. My motto has become, "What if they had a sale and no one came?" It's a quiet revolution. It is my defiant stance against what I perceive as the insidious menace that is America in her current state.

Having said that, let me also say that although I no longer believe in the present American system, I still believe in her people. And so when you ask me what side I'll be on? I will stay with the people. The true believers who love what this nation intended for itself to be. Not those who have sold their souls for what they own, or live off the sweat and work of others. I will never support the violent overthrow of our system. I prefer to allow it to whither on the vine. They rely on our consumption and addictions. It is the one power we still have. To make sound choices and to avoid our compulsive habitual purchases. To slow the thinking and respond rather than react. Linking with others of like-mind and singular purpose. To become the best example of what I believe an American citizen to be.

[bonzotex]

29. hnmmmm, time for our collective spanking?

I've re-read your posts in this thread a couple of times. My first reaction was to get a little mad, but you write so well and have obviously observed and thought so much about it, I can't fault how frustrated you feel. You do a very good job of summarizing that horrible sinking angst that I think a lot of us feel as we watch our Nation become ever more perverse and self-destructive.

First, let me say thanks for some very interesting thoughts. Second, I do agree with most of your observations, feelings and your desire not to contribute to the madness. You espouse a passive principled resistance and I can respect that deeply.

On the other hand, I don't believe in Karma, I don't believe Gaia is going to fling disasters at us to teach us a lesson. I believe we make our own destinies. The disasters are of our own making and can be unmade.
Count me in the active resistance. That might be hubris, but I don't think it's best to watch everything go to hell, know enough that it doesn't have to be that way, and do nothing other than to regulate how you choose to personally participate. We have made bad collective choices throughout our history as you point out. We've made good ones too. The American people do deserve some credit and faith. A military axiom that maybe applies is, "there are no bad Soldiers, only bad Officers." Most people are not leaders, they want a good leaders, but will settle for bad ones. They want big ideals they can build their lives on, but will settle for selfish ones if that's all they are offered. With good leadership people do great things. Do I need to run down a litany list of great leaders who, despite the odds, have changed the World for the better? Here at DU and in progressive politics in general, we are looking for the big ideas and the good leaders. They exist. Some are there already, Some we'll have to build from the ground up.

Merely by keeping your eyes and mind open, keeping yourself informed you are leading. By setting a good personal example, you are leading in a small way and that's great. Small actions can speak very loudly, but your audience is very limited. Perhaps all I really want to say is don't give up. Don't lose hope. Don't look at the enormity of the corruption, violence, greed and decide that all one can do is endure the inevitable collapse with as much principled grace as possible.

We can change the American "system", we can change the culture, we can change people's minds and actions, and we can do it without bloody revolution. The alternative is to let it crash and burn and see what arises from the ashes. We have a better chance of creating a Phoenix through action before the fact than we do just hoping that one might arise from disaster.

Thanks for your thoughts and for making me think. You and others like you are exactly the real American citizens...the real Patriots.

[Dufaeth]

30. You do realize that this sounds like our own ver. of Jerry Falwell?

He just blamed the punishments on the opposite sins.

[leanin_green]

31. Except for one difference.

When Falwell speaks of it, it's judgment from an angry god, his god.
When I speak of it, it's the natural occurrence of balance in the universe. It's the natural law of cause and effect. When a person or entity begins a process by using ulterior/unsavory means to arrive at the desired end, it leaves an impression upon those involved. Memory imprints are created, stories are told, distortions of the event inevitably follow. If there is hatred or anger about the event, it gets passed on. The unevolved mind doesn't forget and it distorts the thinking with prejudice toward the perceived initiator of the act. Eventually, this distorted view of events comes back to the whomever is the present representer of the original act, in this case, a nation. This is a process that fulfills itself every day, all around us, in small or large measure. Not judgment, but the natural progression of the releasing of energy into the universal stream. Always coming back to us with other faces or forms. "All is vanity, there is nothing new under the sun."