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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-05 08:04 PM
Original message
The Fall Of The Republic
Edited on Sat May-07-05 08:11 PM by TheWatcher
This post needs a Preface, because as we all know, no future is absolute, nothing is pre-determined, and we do not know our fate to be ultimate.

No one can tell exactly what the future will hold. The best we can do sometimes is to give our best forecasts and guesses based on the presumption that the current circumstances will continue in the fashion they are currently subscribed in, with little or no change in direction.


That being said, it is my belief that if the current course we are on continues unabated and without a radical change in direction or disruption of said course.....

This country is dead, finished, and beyond the Point Of No Return, and beyond any hope of redemption.

And the society that makes up this country and all of it's citizens, is NOT going to survive the consequences that are being brought to bear by the current Power Structure.

Now, I know some will dismiss this as another Doom and Gloom Post. If you wish to do that, fine. But if you look at my posting history you will find I have NEVER been one to advocate giving up hope, giving up the fight, or succumbing to this new generation of Fascism and outright Nazism that we are currently living through.

The latest revelation is the Memo that reveals, once and for all, that the US and Great Britain completely manufactured, fabricated, and fixed intelligence and facts to justify an invasion of Iraq, and that all of this was planned and formulated LONG before 9/11. You know the Memo, the one that has "Impeachment Written All Over It."

But nothing is going to be done. You can be assured of this. Congress will sit there with glazed over eyes and continue to look the other way. The Media, which is now nothing more than an Orwellian Parrot that works exclusively for this Power Structure, is not going to touch it, and if they do it will die a quick death. Besides, there are far too many more important distractions that are far more pressing and relevant to feed to you, such as "The Runaway Bride Story", which I'm SURE we can all admit is the most groundbreaking and Civilization altering story since Man's First Trip To The Moon. (Sarcasm Intended).

You would think that this Memo would be "The Smoking Gun" that causes the whole House Of Cards to Fall. But how many of these have their been? How MANY Smoking Guns have we seen that were enough to send perhaps the majority of our current elected leaders, at least on the Republican Side to Jail for Treason, High Crimes, you NAME it?

How many have their been in the past four years alone?

How many have we held tightly in our hopeful fists and raised into the air on this Site proclaiming "THIS has GOT to be IT?"

9/11, the Stolen Elections, The Illegal War, The Torture at Abu Gareb, Jeff Gannon and all of the other paid propaganda Goebbels clones, Enron and all the Corporate Scandals, Cheney's Energy Meetings, The Social Security Scam....Dear God there have been SO MANY Scandals and Crimes committed by these people my head is spinning and almost overwhelmed and short circuiting sitting here trying to go over all of them. There is SO MUCH corruption and out of control thuggery, one does not even know where to begin.

Even if this Administrations Policies don't finish us, The Economic Environment WILL. But that is an ENTIRELY different discussion.

Look, my fellow Americans, it has come to the point where even Nixon was CHRIST compared to this bunch.

And yet day after day, it goes on, and on, and on, and on.

We could rant until we are Blue In The Face about all of these things, and every day many of us do, but perhaps it all comes down to one very simple question, because when you are dealing with corruption and hubris this vast and deep seeded, it helps to simplify things to regain clarity and perspective.

WHAT Is It Going To TAKE To Put A Stop To All Of This?

What is going to have to happen before we somehow change the course we are on that is ultimately going to lead to at the very least the demise of our country, and at worst the demise of most of us living in this country.

With many of the revelations that have come out recently, although we were, in many minds here, past this point long ago, there is now NO DOUBT that we are LONG past the point of any question that our President needs to be impeached, and perhaps many of our Congressmen and his entire cabinet need to be prosecuted and suffer the stiffest possible penalty for the crimes they have wrought upon not only this country but this entire planet and humanity itself.

The Ghosts Of The Past have returned, and like it or not, whether you choose to subscribe to the notion or not, IT HAS HAPPENED HERE.

And as has painstakingly been covered here on this Site for the past four years, the legal groundwork through legislative and other processes has been laid to usher in the complete and total takeover of this nation for transformation into a Fascistic Theocracy, or whatever other nightmare they have planned. One need only examine the legislation that has been passed since 9/11 alone to realize the building blocks that are in place.

The Voting Machines are still the key to the future of the Electoral Process in this country. All of the relevant information is out there to point to the future intentions of their application and there is plenty of evidence of what they have already been used for, yet still a large majority refuse to acknowledge it. These machines have NEGATED our Constitutional ability to democratically control and choose our leaders. But too many still wish to think of this past Election as legitimate, and the Fraud that in all probability occurred as "Radical Conspiracy Theory", or "Unhealthy Speculation that will only inflame the Right and make us look too radical and illogical."

While at the same time our adversaries continue to get away with the most illogical and criminal behavior, brazenly and blatantly for all the world to see, and our so called "Leadership" on the left continues to be Spineless enablers putting on the worst Vaudeville Parody of "Opposition."

But hey, at least The Queers can't Marry, right?

This is NOT to say that more aren't waking up or coming to the realization of the Poison that is slowly killing our (Banana) Republic, and this is not to say that there is not opposition to these Fascists. One only need look around DU and you will find there are plenty of signs of Intelligent Life, Free Thinking Individuals, and determined Activists who are willing to fight even if there is no hope.


But I'm sorry kids, the Majority of Americans simply either do not give a shit, are willfully ignorant, or actually AGREE with what is going on.

The Bush faithful are Enemies Of The State and this Planet, of course. It doesn't matter to them how stupid Bush is, or what Bush does, They BELIEVE in what he stands for, and they are every bit the Nazis that Bush, his Cabinet and Handlers are.

The uninformed/apathetic simply don't seem to care what happens and cannot seem to be bothered with what is going on around them. If it doesn't afffect them directly, they aren't interested. What they fail to realize is that by the time all of this actually DOES affect them it will be FAR TOO LATE to change anything or do anything to stop it at that point.

The willfully ignorant simply baffle me. Those who deep down KNOW what is going on, but they simply ignore it or look the other way. Just like the "Good Germans" in the 1930's. It is fascinating sometimes to listen to the rationalizations these people come up with.

Our Media, as I said earlier, is lost. They work for the Powers That Be, and their job from here on out is to distribute the Propaganda given to them by by said PTB, and to provide the Distraction and Cover necessary for TPTB so that they may act without interference from a questioning Public. And though the complexities of this are many, the concept is that simple. Period.

What we are seeing is The Perfect Storm that is gathering strength, and perhaps will bear witness to the most Epic Fall of a Civilization since the Roman Empire.

And it hurts to think that although there will obviously be resistance, and hopefully resistance even in the absence of hope from people like those who visit this Site every day, and like minded individuals, that this will happen mostly unabated and without resistance by the majority of Americans.

Like I said, nothing is absolute. There are many unknown variables that could play out here that we have not yet seen come to bear. There could be something totally out of Left Field that could Topple this Administration tomorrow, next week, next year. There is ALWAYS HOPE, no matter how faint.

And that is why we continue to fight, to resist, and visit DU everyday, if for nothing more than to be comforted by the Oasis of The Campfire of like minded individuals who have not surrendered their sensibilities and logic to the Kool-Aid.

However, if there is no change of course, then the best you can do is take care of your loved one's, take care of your families and friends, make all the difference you can in their lives and in the lives you have the direct ability to touch, and live out your life on YOUR Terms, doing the best you can to work around the tendrils of Fascism and Theocracy.

Because eventually this country WILL Fall.

We cannot continue like this.

And we WILL not.

Eventually, resolution will come, whether we have a hand in it or not.

And that may not be to our advantage, if it falls to the rest of the World to seek resolution to the Repeating Of History we are quickly evolving into.

So, again I ask, WHAT Is It Going To TAKE To Bring These People Down?

It may be time to face the reality that although we MUST fight to make sure the outcome is the opposite, the answer may very well be....

NOTHING CAN.

And if that is the case, we must be prepared to decide our course of action in the face of that reality. That probably shouldn't be discussed here. Not publicly.

And no, I don't have any ultimate solutions. And I know none of us likely do. I suppose i am editorializing the feelings of what I see happening, and preaching to the choir. I really don't know what else to do right now. Like Malloy often says, I shouldn't really express the more radical solutions I have on my mind.

I think there are so many wonderful ideas that have been expressed on this Site, and we have a wonderful Brain Trust here that has come up with many paths that lead in the right direction.

But with the Voting Machines being controlled by those in Power, I simply don't see how they will work. And that is my honest assessment.

So What Will It Take?

I Don't Know.

But every day I will continue to fight, resist, and do what I can as an individual to combat all of this, and seek solace and information from places like DU. Because I cannot give up. I just can't.

None Of Us Can.

And None Of Us Will.



It's Hard To Love
There's So Much To Hate
Hnaging On To Hope
When There Is No Hope To Speak Of

And The Wounded Skies Above
Say It's Much Too Late

So Maybe We Should All
Be Praying For Time...........

-George Michael

/ranting editorializing off
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kliljedahl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-05 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. OUCH!! That hurts
But only because it's true.

Well written rant


Keith’s Barbeque Central
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-05 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. nominated n/t
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-05 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
3. Have faith
Edited on Sat May-07-05 08:21 PM by IChing

"Throughout the history of mankind there have been murderers and tyrants; and while it may seem momentarily that they have the upper hand, they have always fallen."


Always.

- Mahatma Gandhi
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
25. I agree with Gandhi's words but
as the original poster points out, it isn't too far-fetched to compare the fall of the American Republic with the fall of the Roman Republic. Rome survived as an imperial power for a long time afterward, but the Empire was ruled by murderers and tyrants during that time.

We may be heading in that direction ourselves. :evilfrown:
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Gloria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-05 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. Final nail in the coffin.....I was talking today to a friend about
Bush in Europe and brought up how our defense/military budget will surpass that of the world combined.....Remind you of something?? The Soviet Union??? (It wasn't Reagan, it was the the rot from within esp. the military spending while the needs of the people were forgotten....)
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sweetladybug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-05 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
5. You need to tell us what you really think ha!ha! I totally agree with you
Edited on Sat May-07-05 08:24 PM by sweetladybug
But we can't give up hope. Sooner or later something will stick on the crooks in charge of our country. NO ONE IS SLICK FOREVER. I think someone out there, has some absolute proof on these people and sooner or later every one will see the Bush Crime Family for that they truely are.
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brindis_desala Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-05 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
6. Glad you got that off your chest. Your analysis is spot on
but I believe you may have overestimated the enemy's strength.
The threads are unraveling the people are rousing from their slumber. Think of how discouraged the abolitionists must have been; the union organizers; the folks blacklisted in the 50's; The college kids getting their heads bashed in, little girls murdered just for demanding basic human rights. We have a lot of heroes we just don't see them on the 5 o'clock news. Keep writing and I'm right there fighting beside you.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-05 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
7. Lighten up. Join E Clampus Vitus and relax a bit. God is not mocked
even this crew in D.C. can't keep the truth from coming out.

Then go out and read John J. Robinson's books

Born In Blood

and

Dungeon Fire and Sword: The Knights Templars in the Crusades

http://www.alibris.com/search/books/author/Robinson,%20...

also, check out Steven Wohlberg's book End Times Delusions and see what was considered the antichrist/beast ... the Papacy. Plus, speaking of the current Left Behind series of novels, this eschatology is from the Jesuits 'futurist' version -- in order to throw the trail off so to speak and to further the Counter-Reformation.

You may also want to check out the strange case of the "Pope's Stone" that was discarded surreptitiously during the building of the Washington Monument obilisk

http://www.nps.gov/wamo/history/chap3.htm

Scroll down to Theft of Pope's Stone. Very anti-papal feelings back then; not at all like today. Seems the Jesuits 'futurist' eschatology has won the day. The CIAs original top members were Knights of Malta (endorsed by the Pope) and the enemy of the Knights Templar (persecuted by the Pope). Modern day Freemasons wouldn't have gone along with this 'futurist' garbage but now it seems they've weakened. This, to me seems to be one of the reasons for our country's slow downward drift from the Founding Fathers (mostly Freemasons) dreams.

Now then, get thee to a Clamper chapter !
http://www.ecvgazette.com/lostdutchman/ShumatesHistory_of_E_Clampus_Vitus_.htm
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #7
30. .
:eyes:
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Sugarbleus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
39. The "Clampers"? Wow...
The historical drinking society OR the drinking historical society..

Well, they DO have fun at least :beer: :rofl:

:shrug:
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givemebackmycountry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-05 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
8. Nominate - well done
Now, I need a stiff drink.

Well written, and using a pun since I'm about to have a drink...sobering.

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Toby109 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-05 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
9. "Was it over when the Germans bombed
Pearl Harbor?! Hell no! And it ain't over now. 'Cause when the going gets tough.....................................................the tough gets going!"

But seriously, from what I gather from history these kind of things rears their ugly heads every once in a while. From a very broad point of view it almost seems natural for our species. We have become quite proficient at creating weaponry that can destroy the planet but have yet to develop a means to save it.

Then again, who knows? Maybe, fifty years from now, WE will be looked upon as the Greatest Generation because we fought and defeated the creeping theocracy that threatened America.

Somebody's got to do it. Might as well be us.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. It ain't over yet!
And if we don't do it, who will? WHO? Look around you... are you going to depend on that person over there to do it for you?

If we are still living an 'American Dream' fifty years from now it will be because We_Changed_History.

Each and everyone one of us needs to run for a public office. There is no other way to make the changes necessary but to become the ultimate crafters of the policies and decisions that the government makes on a daily basis.

The question is: Will DUers unite with and support other DUers or will we divide ourselves into inconsequential individuals?
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paparush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
38. I always thought the Nipponese
bomped Pearl Harbor ;-)
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-05 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
10. What is will take is work
activism, action, getting off our asses. To quit feeling sorry for ourselves and do something.
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-05 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
11. Wonderful post and chilling in it's probability , I have a plan, a start
This sounds pretty silly at first blush but give it some thought. We (underground) plus whoever else we can recruit and stage a modern day Boston Tea Party only in every major city with water near by. Instead of tea we use (either the real thing) or a replicate of voting machines. The media would have to cover it. Yes they would do their best to label it as loony, delusional, etc but if it could be organized well enough it would make a major impact in getting reasonable people to think and also a stunt like that if large enough would draw a multitude of recruits (brainpower) We need to make a strike at the most immediate and serious threat. We must have paper ballots counted by people (election judges). This is an absolute must without certifiable elections we are lost indeed. If we can gain this one feat we can win back our country. It is imperative. Just my $.02 worth. We need ideas if nothing else.
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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-05 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
12. Ya hafta believe in the basic goodness of the American people
We've faced tough times before and some how pulled through. Its a different world now. Are we up to it?
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QERTY Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. ...And Disregard Polling Data and First-Hand Experience.
I keep hearing that when the wheels fall off our current economic jalopy and inflation, unemployment, home repos, and even hunger rear their ugly heads in the lives of a majority of Americans, we as a nation will suddenly awaken and come to some sort of realization that policy matters and that Democratic policies will be the ticket back to the America we once knew, one of relative prosperity for most and of reason prevailing in Washington.
To this I say BUNK!
Where you see fundamental goodness, I see ignorance and delusion.
Where you see altruism, I see greed.
Where you see common-sense, I see fanaticism.
When the debt and budget finally bring about what they were created to achieve, the big collapse, our wonderful leaders in Washington will be ready with a slate of targets to blame.
For example:
1. Government regulation has prevented American business from prevailing. Labor laws and environmental regulations have conspired to destroy our economy. We must repeal all these terrible laws sucking the life out of the American economy!
2. God has turned away from our country because we allow the holocaust of abortion to continue unchecked! As we descend to the level of Sodom, God will continue to punish us! We must ban abortion and the perfidity of sodomy once and for all!

Do you get it now? It's not as though the Republicans are going to be unprepared for the inevitable. The question is will America ever wake up. I'm not confident that they will until it is far too late to make a difference.
ClearChannel and Diebold (et al) can't wait to declare a landslide for Frist/Santorum and your country doesn't seem to care. Oh, well.
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jaysunb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. Well said !
:toast:
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vince3 Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-05 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
13. Great Post
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devinsgram Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-05 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
14. This rant explains in most specific details
why most people in this country do not vote. They see it as being futile. As someone just said to me the other day, "why should I vote, they are all the same, crooks and liars. Nothing will change." People feel hopeless and that's what has to change.

I just finished watching Iron Jawed Angels, the HBO movie about how women got the right to vote. I was amazed and never knew the details of how that came about. Seems to me that very few are willing to fight the way they did. The sad part is that these brave women went through hell to get the vote and yet some treat voting with such distaste.

I truly believe that most of this country will not stand up and take a stand until it effects them personally. The only problem then is it will be too late.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-05 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. yes, excellent points. sadly true.
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Minnesota_Lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 02:52 AM
Response to Original message
16. BTW, what's the latest update on the Runaway Bride? J/K
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 03:59 AM
Response to Original message
17. Excellent Thread-Nominated!
I don't know what it will take for things to change....I fear that it could get extremely, extremely, extremely ugly before the tide turns. Every day I come to DU hoping for that tidbit of news that we are now winning and that the * house of cards is falling. But we all know that hasn't happened yet...or how long or how much we will have to suffer before it does.

All of us here on DU care passionately about what's happening to this country and it's people, but in so many ways-too many ways-our hands are tied. What keeps me going are the people here who don't give up-never give up-who could care less about their hands being tied and are resourceful enough to instead use their feet! It's this steadfastness and bravery that have held me together on my darkest days. I've been ready to flee this country a thousand times, but it's the DUers with the sheer grit to hang on and fight to the end that have kept me here, kept me whole and kept me from getting lost in a sea of frustration and despair.

If I've learned but one thing here on DU it's:

Never Give Up. :grouphug:
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 06:07 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Abe Lincoln
"You can fool some of the people most of the time, most of the people someof the time but not all of the people all of the time."

Let's hope that he was correct.
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zippy890 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
19. Excellent, well said


"The willfully ignorant simply baffle me. Those who deep down KNOW what is going on, but they simply ignore it or look the other way. Just like the "Good Germans" in the 1930's. It is fascinating sometimes to listen to the rationalizations these people come up with".

You can't reason with Ideologues.

This is starting to really disturb me about certain trends and events in this country as of late - the hateful ideology that is gaining momentum. The anti-gay, anti women's rights religious frothing at the mouth. History has showed cycles of this kind of thing, and I'm hoping it will start to subside.

The problem is that ignorance and intolerance suit the bush agenda--divide the people, target groups to hate and oppress- keep in power.

shades of Germany in the 1930s

WE CAN'T LET THIS HAPPEN. I will fight every way I possibly can to change the course we're on.

Thank you for your post. DU is saving my sanity these days. I know we will prevail in the end.

Keep fighting the good fight!!!!


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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
20. I believe (nearly) everyone on DU understands what it will take...
Edited on Sun May-08-05 08:14 AM by Q
...to turn things around. They KNOW it will take a true opposition party to stop the Bushies in their tracks and turn things around.

But the truth is that too many Democratic leaders have become the very Enablers that Bush uses to make his/their agenda seem legitimate and 'bipartisan'.

Look at all the things Bush has been able to do and get away with because the Corporate Media was able to 'report' that just enough Democrats approved of his pollicies. Stolen elections. A rigged, 'bipartisan' 9-11 commission that 'promised' not to include the WH in their 'investigations'. A blatantly illegal, unprovoked and aggressive war and the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent civilians and (and soon to be) thousands of American soldiers.

History shows that the lack of an active, effective opposition and an independent, investigative media allows despots and tyrants to gain enough of a foothold to destroy civilizations. History is repeating itself and Rome is burning.

Most Democrats know what is happening. But they're seemingly happy to accept their role as cheerleaders for their party.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #20
33. So
What are they afraid of? :evilfrown:
and/or
What's in it for them? :evilgrin:

Where is the "true opposition party"?
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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
22. The "MEMO" was reported in today's Chicago Tribune!!!
In a couple of short paragraphs buried on page 15.

Where are the voices of Democrat leaders?

Are the lies that led us into a disastrous war and killed thousands a "dead" issue?
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jaysunb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. Please Martin E., write
a letter to the editor, and let them know you read the bit they printed. Ask why things like this are not printed on the front page.

Sometimes people want to be prodded or pushed. Maybe the Trib wants to be the next Washington Post a la Watergate hero. Maybe they need a little public support.

I'm going to write my letter right now. They own the Los Angeles Times, who I'll be writing as well.

Wars are fought on many fronts and in many ways. We are at war.....
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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Thanks for the suggestion jaysnub
I'll write that letter tonight!
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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Here's the letter I just sent:
How newsworthy would it be if an official memo from British intelligence stated that Bush had decided by July 2002 to invade Iraq, and that the intelligence and facts on weapons of mass destruction were "being fixed around the policy?" In the America I used to live in this would be front page news, followed by a special prosecutor. Today, it's a non-issue. Congratulations to the Tribune for printing the story -- a few paragraphs buried on page 15.
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BornaDem Donating Member (225 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
24. Sorry to say, but I agree completely...
and do not believe it can be turned around. "The powers that be" plan a complete collapse and we are so far down that road if everybody woke up tomorrow morning and realized it, it wouldn't make one iota of difference. I pity the children.
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
26. You sum up my feelings exactly
The only consolation I take these days is from past movements that took generations to be successful (like the American civil rights movement). Reconstruction failed in the the mid-1870s...it wasn't until the 1950s and '60s that any substantial correction was made, but it took many people working hard, struggling, dying, in between (some of whom never saw the fruits of their labor even if they weren't killed) to "overcome."

We may be in a similar situation. We may not get to the promised land, to paraphrase King on the night before he was killed, but if we continue to work, struggle, and die, if need be, one fine morning our children may see our Republic restored.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
27. Nominated. And I agree WE MUST NEVER GIVE UP!
even if it's hopeless, ESPECIALLY if it's hopeless...

...so that in the future, when our descendants rise up, they'll know what they're made of.

By God, YES!

At the same time I recognize that you are correct that even now, it is already almost completely hopeless.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
28. kick
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DerekG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-08-05 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
32. Sorry, but the Republic fell 55 years ago
Ironically, it was not a rightist who destroyed our republic, but a (tacit) liberal: Harry Truman. He and his cold warrior cadre set the national security apparatus in stone and doomed us to wage war on any government--or democratic movement--that stood in the way of our interests. Ever wonder why our main export is arms? Curious that we never reverted back to a peacetime economy? Thank that deified dickhead from Missouri.

Bushco is not an aberration; rather, it is the culmination of all that has gone before.
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paparush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
36. kick
kick!
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unlawflcombatnt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
37. Economic Environment Declining
Bush supply-side pseudo-economic policies are destroying our economy. It would take all of about 20 minutes to explain to someone how his economic mismanagement is worsening the economy, in addition to the complete absence of logic to his economic policies. His policies are actively worsening life for the lower 98% at present. And they will make 100% of us poorer in the future.

Tax cuts for the affluent, and other "supply-side" giveaways make no economic sense. Many people aren't aware of this, because it does take a little time to explain. But not very much. So I'm going to try here.

Our country became the world's most powerful economy under administrations that practiced "Demand-Side" economic policies. In general, demand-side economics centers on consumer spending and demand. Profits are made when goods are sold, not when produced. Industrial production is driven by DEMAND for goods made from that production. Consumer spending creates the demand for that production. Without demand, there is no production. Because there's no benefit to that production. No profits can be made from unsold production.

Consumer demand is the ONLY factor that increases job and wage growth. Demand for goods also creates demand for labor to produce goods. Increased demand for anything increases the price. Thus, increased demand for labor increases the price of that labor. In other words, it increases wages. It also increases hiring. Demand increases the number of people working, as well as the wages of those people working.

If more workers are working and average wages are higher, it increases the aggregate (or total) demand for goods in our country. Aggregate Demand, when measured in dollars, is the ultimate limiting factor of industrial production. Aggregate Demand in dollars is total spendable dollars available to consumers. (Republicans hate the concept of Aggregate Demand. It conflicts with their "alternate reality" economic theories.)

Again, aggregate demand for goods is the engine that drives our economy. It drives production, hiring, and wage increases. The demand cycle has a self-perpetuating effect. As labor/consumer income increases, so does the demand for goods. Because consumers have more money to spend. This increased demand further increases labor demand. Which further increases wages and hiring.


Supply-side concepts have never been accepted by a large number of economists. What I mean here is that they are not even accepted as a valid economic theory. Many economists refuse to call supply-side policies a theory. Some refer to them as "voodoo economics." Supply-side policies are essentially economic mythology. They are a completely illogical set of ideas that were concocted to justify tax cuts for the rich. The major proponents were not even economists. Most were actually journalists, such as Robert Bartley, the late editor of the Wall Street Journal.

Let me try to show the error of some supply-side propaganda. A major point is about tax cuts for the rich. This is supposed to stimulate investment. That investment is supposed to go into building production facilities and increasing production (supply). There is an obvious problem here. What if consumer spending doesn't necessitate increased supply? If consumer spending doesn't keep up with supply, that investment money is completely wasted. Profits are made by SELLING products, not producing them. Un-sold goods do not "grow" our economy. (Neither do increased CEO salaries.)

Another less important, but even more illogical assumption, is that if you tax people less, they will produce more. It may be true that high-end taxpayers would have more money to invest. However, that's where the truth ends, and the fantasy begins. Even acknowledging that smidgeon of truth, the benefit of that money is questionable. The extra investment money is supposed to lead to increased goods production(supply). Again, there is no benefit to producing more goods than consumers can pay for. This increased investment money is useless unless demand necessitates increased production.

There is also a definite negative to these supply-side fantasies. Increasing the deficit to fund these cuts increases inflation, as well as devaluing the dollar. That means consumer dollars are worth less. So consumers will buy less. And provide less demand for goods, causing less demand for labor. Which starts us on another self-perpetuating downward spiral.

The big picture is this. In order for production to increase, demand for production must increase. Consumers need to have enough spendable wealth to purchase increased production. Inreasing production without increasing consumer spending is putting the cart ahead of the horse. The horse isn't going to "push" the cart forward. And manufacturers aren't going to "push" consumer spending forward. Only consumers can drive our economy. They provide the demand that "pulls" production forward. Remember the old adage: "Necessity is the mother of invention." So it is that "Demand is the mother of production." Demand for goods leads to increased production of those goods. However, supply of goods does not increase demand. Unsold goods are worth absolutely $0.


Demand-Side Economics were almost universally accepted until the mid-1970's. However, sometime in the 70's, supply-side mythology was born. (Under a rock, in a dark cave.)

Today we're seeing the fruits of supply-side mythology.
Consumer income has decreased during Bush's "economic reign-of-terror." Tax cuts for the top 2% favor investment, not consumer spending. Though consumer income was obviously declining, Bush decided his rich friends needed more money to "grow" the economy. According to Bush, they would produce more goods and increase production capacity. Also, as Bush dishonestly claimed, they would hire more workers.

Does this make any sense? Will a company hire more workers just because they have more money? Do they hire more just because they can afford to? No, absolutely not. They only hire workers when they NEED them. No amount of corporate giveaways will increase hiring, unless demand for production increases.

Let me give an example. Let's say I'm a doctor who sees 6 patients per day. I need one nurse. What if my new friend, George Bush, gives me $1 million because he likes me. (for some unknown reason.) Will I hire more nurses? Of course not. I don't NEED more nurses. They won't increase my profits any, so I'm not going to hire them.

Let me change the example. Let's say I'm the same doctor, and my ex-friend, George Bush, takes back the $1 million. Then he gives it to the potential patients who live around my office. Now more people can afford medical care. Now I have 30 patients per day. Am I going to hire more nurses? Yes, indeed. Because now I NEED more nurses. The DEMAND for nurses has increased. Hiring more nurses increases my profits.

I hired more nurses only when I NEEDED them. I hired none when I didn't need them, even though I could afford them. Being able to afford hiring of nurses had no effect on hiring. Demand for their services did. This increased demand was due to increased consumer income. Increased consumer income ALWAYS increases aggregate demand. (It may effect demand for individual products differently. But is still increases the sum total of demand for goods and services produced.)

In the above example, nurses spendable income increased because of demand increase. In turn, their income increased aggregate consumer income. This increases demand for the goods they buy, and the labor that produces those goods.

Again, increased consumer income increases demand for production. But how does consumer spending increase, if consumer income decreases? Through credit and borrowing. Consumer spending has been maintained through increased borrowing and credit card spending. To phrase this differently, it has been maintained by consumer "deficit" spending. And this is becoming an increasing portion of consumer spending. A lot of this deficit spending has been financed by the artificially increased value of homes, and the resulting increase in home equity loans. Interest rates have almost a direct effect on the market value of homes. The higher the fraction of buyer's cost going to financing, the less the market value of the home. This is because the seller receives a smaller fraction of the total payment. If interest rates are low, the seller receives a higher fraction of the buyer's payment.

Let me give a brief illustration. Let's say I want to buy a home. Let's say I am a perfect example of all potential buyers in my area.
I'm willing to pay $300,000 total for a home. This includes all finance charges, as well as principal payment. Let's say the total financing costs $150, 000. That means the seller will get the other $150,000. That means the market value of his home is $150,000, because that's what he actually gets.

Let's change the finance charges. I'm still only willing to pay $300,000 total for the home, including all finance charges. But the finance charges are only $50,000 now, because of a lower interest rate. The seller now gets $250,000, instead of $150,000. The market value of his home is now $250,000. The market value of his home has increased $100,000 because of a reduced interest rate. The reduced interest rate accounts for 100% of the increase in market value. This increases the equity, and increases the amount he can borrow off this equity.

Lowered interest rates have greatly increased home equity values. They have also greatly increased the amount of money that can be borrowed off this equity. This money has made a significant contribution to consumer spending during the last 4 years. It's prevented consumer spending from sinking. As interest rates rise, home equity values will decrease. Money borrowed from this reduced home equity will decrease. The contribution to consumer spending from this money will decrease.

From this, it becomes obvious that consumer demand cannot be maintained by this consumer deficit spending. We are nearing the limit now. We are going to reach this limit in the near future. The home-refinancing loan bubble, and its contribution to consumer spending, is about to burst. When it does, consumer spending and demand will drop. And they will continue to drop, because this is also a self-perpetuating cycle. As demand decreases, hiring will decrease and layoffs will increase. This will further decrease demand for production. Further decreasing demand for labor.

We need to change our economic course. We can't let Republicans distract us from major issues. We can't let them waste our time with discussion right-wing planted distractions. Subjects such as steroids in baseball, the Robert Blake trial, Michael Jackson, and Terry Shiavo provide cover for what the Republicans are really up to. Corporatization of social security and extension of tax cuts for the rich affect all of us. Job loss to the cheap slave labor of foreign countries affects all of us. Let's not help provide cover for the
Bush/Mankiw/Snow/Greenspan "economic axis-of-evil."

Clinton was right. It is "the economy stupid." Let's not let the Republicans convince us otherwise.

Mike

unlawflcombatnt: Economic Populist Commentary

http://www.unlawflcombatnt.blogspot.com/

_________________
America needs a return to Demand-Side economic policies. Consumer spending and demand drive our economy. Investment "permits" growth, but only DEMAND will cause such growth. Production is limited by Aggregate demand for that production.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Well said and IMHO plain common sense
I am the CEO of a small corporation also. I place my orders based upon demand and nothing else....well on second thought sometimes a very good price comes along and I try and take advantage but never like to tie my money up long with excess inventory.
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