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usregimechange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 11:05 PM
Original message
Poll question: When fetus/baby becomes more important than Mom's choice
Life and health exception intact, using your own ethical reasoning, normal pregancy, when does the interest of protecting the life of the fetus or baby become more important than the self-determination of the mother?

The next poll will deal with why you made this selection, on what grounds.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. The mother determines this question
It is her body, not a poll, that should determine the action.
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usregimechange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I was asking you for your thoughts
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #3
20. You got them.
This is not a public issue, it is a mother's issue.
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usregimechange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #20
26. Are mothers able to think?
Edited on Thu May-05-05 12:39 AM by usregimechange
They have to go through this ethical decision making process. If you were a mother what would you decide based on what factors? Thinking with political ideology is not a good habit, what do you think?
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googly Donating Member (801 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
16. I am thrilled my mother did not abort me in any trimester
:)
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. I am glad for your mother also
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gumby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
2. Your poll is a sham.
Edited on Wed May-04-05 11:20 PM by gumby
"Self-determination?" Why didn't you use the unfortunate term "choice?"

Maybe you should ask when a woman becomes property of the State?

edit: "Mom's choice" is extremely, politically loaded.
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usregimechange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Is the word choice "politically loaded" or the lack "unfortunate?"
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gumby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. Both
"Choice" is both "politically loaded" and "unfortunate."

As we all know, "choice" has been used to dehumanize women. As in, "Well, should I have a manicure or an abortion today?"
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
4. Sheila Na Gig Reality check
Women are not incubators.

No poll, parsing or editorializing questions will separate the development of a pregnancy from the life of the mother.

It's a miracle! Bow down before the miracle of life, the Goddess, the Sheila Na Gig, the ancient life force that cares not for invasive artifice and male womb envy.

:evilgrin:
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usregimechange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I never said we were making policy, I wanted your view.
Do you have one?
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #7
22. The first three responses to your thread were very clear:
“The mother determines this question. It is her body, not a poll, that should determine the action.”
“Maybe you should ask when a woman becomes property of the State?”
“Women are not incubators.”
“Your poll is a sham.”
“No poll, parsing or editorializing questions will separate the development of a pregnancy from the life of the mother.”

Yet you responded to each as if we had not presented our views.

“I was asking you for your thoughts.”
“Is the word choice "politically loaded" or the lack "unfortunate?"”
“I never said we were making policy, I wanted your view.
Do you have one?”

As if we didn’t answer in the way you wanted-- so you acted as if we hadn’t answered AT ALL.

Which is WHY the poll was considered objectionable (with all due respect to your intentions). The assumptions and false dichotomies embedded in your question/choices were extremely limited and loaded. The choices offer artificial constructs that our comments pointed out.

My view is that no poll, parsing or editorializing questions will separate the development of a pregnancy from the life of the mother. However, the attitude expressed in the basic premise of this poll TRIED to do exactly that. It is a problem with the whole argument about a women’s right to privacy and reproductive health. Again, women are not incubators.

Thank you for playing! :hi:
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gumby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. Thank You,
That was Excellent.

O/T, recently visited the Mark Twain museum during winter. The 'person-in-charge' was very wonderful. That 'detour' stop was well worth the gas cost to get there.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Obliged
Where is the museum? Fascinatin' person, love the lucid/humor/politic thing...

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gumby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. I'll have to check the map.
Get back to you later...
Check in tomorrow...
Past my zzzz...

The museum was a place that had 'Twain's' original childhood house inside. Made me think about a lot of things...
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usregimechange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. Ok, I am a mom thinking about this will you advise me?
Or is it taboo like fundamentalist sex education?
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #28
36. Let down your defenses
My advice is to re-read the comments expressing female/friendly viewpoints and imagine the power to create life in your body. Or imagine the body you have, imagine someone telling you they have the right to invade your health decisions and medical options, or harvest your sperm, or farm out bits of your organs (they'll grow back!) or clone you or, or decide if you have the right to breed or.....against your will. Denying your "self-determination."

You answered someone on this thread:
"We weren't looking at the mothers life vs. the fetuses..." Excuse me? You see the choice being between "fetus/baby" or "Mom's choice"/"self-determination of the mother"-- but somehow the mother's LIFE is not involved? THE MOTHER CREATES LIFE IN HER BODY. No zygote is a forgone conclusion as a an outcome. Maybe that's part of the HUGE BLIND SPOT in non-female, control-based attitudes on this issue-- the attitude is that sperm start the clock running at conception and Woman IS an incubator! A vessel. A vassel. Chattel. PROPERTY.

Oh, and on that other thread, if someone pokes fun and points out that the poll choices are limited; and if you are trying to show some awareness of women's issues (or is it Fetus Rights?) it's probably best not to respond:

"Is that blonde as well? Oh and fuck you."

:pals:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #36
45. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #45
48. See #39
:puke:
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #45
50. What you made clear is
a. you don't comprehend or acknowledge the intrinsic relationship between a woman and the potential life within

b. your attitudes are so rigid that you might as well fill in all the answers to your own poll

c. when another point of view is presented, you become belligerent, even when you repeatedly ask for "advise"

d. "the life exception"! spoken in the abstract, a hollow phrase-- voices who answered you were real human beings

You limit your field for statistical analysis when you blow off the folks who play your game.

Oh, that is the game.

:hi:
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
6. Up to age 18 (years) - n/t (just kidding)
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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. I was going to guess at age 25
eom
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googly Donating Member (801 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #6
18. Any teenager should be subject to killing by parents without any
penalty whatsoever. From age 0 to 12, and after they are 20, they should all be protected :spank:
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
8. Whenever the baby is developed enough to live outside of the womb. nt
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BlueJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
9. I just voted for "Birth" cause a Womens body is none of my business
..unless she wants it to be.. :)
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
10. I go with the pre-1869 Catholic Rule
Edited on Wed May-04-05 11:30 PM by happyslug
Prior to 1869, Catholics for over 1000 years had followed rules covering Abortion. These rules were incorporated into the English Common Law during the Middle Ages. In Roe vs Wade, these rules were given Constitutional status. If you want to read the rule see Roe vs Wade:http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=410&invol=113

I quote Roe vs Wade (To moderators, this is an official legal opinion of the US Supreme Court and as such NOT COPY WRITABLE and thus can be re-printed in length):

"The common law. It is undisputed that at common law, abortion performed before "quickening" - the first recognizable movement of the fetus in utero, appearing usually from the 16th to the 18th week of pregnancy 20 - was not an indictable offense. 21 The absence <410 U.S. 113, 133> of a common-law crime for pre-quickening abortion appears to have developed from a confluence of earlier philosophical, theological, and civil and canon law concepts of when life begins. These disciplines variously approached the question in terms of the point at which the embryo or fetus became "formed" or recognizably human, or in terms of when a "person" came into being, that is, infused with a "soul" or "animated." A loose consensus evolved in early English law that these events occurred at some point between conception and live birth. 22 This was "mediate animation." Although <410 U.S. 113, 134> Christian theology and the canon law came to fix the point of animation at 40 days for a male and 80 days for a female, a view that persisted until the 19th century, there was otherwise little agreement about the precise time of formation or animation. There was agreement, however, that prior to this point the fetus was to be regarded as part of the mother, and its destruction, therefore, was not homicide. Due to continued uncertainty about the precise time when animation occurred, to the lack of any empirical basis for the 40-80-day view, and perhaps to Aquinas' definition of movement as one of the two first principles of life, Bracton focused upon quickening as the critical point. The significance of quickening was echoed by later common-law scholars and found its way into the received common law in this country.

Whether abortion of a quick fetus was a felony at common law, or even a lesser crime, is still disputed. Bracton, writing early in the 13th century, thought it homicide. 23 But the later and predominant view, following the great common-law scholars, has been that it was, at most, a lesser offense. In a frequently cited <410 U.S. 113, 135> passage, Coke took the position that abortion of a woman "quick with childe" is "a great misprision, and no murder." 24 Blackstone followed, saying that while abortion after quickening had once been considered manslaughter (though not murder), "modern law" took a less severe view. 25 A recent review of the common-law precedents argues, however, that those precedents contradict Coke and that even post-quickening abortion was never established as a common-law crime. 26 This is of some importance because while most American courts ruled, in holding or dictum, that abortion of an unquickened fetus was not criminal under their received common law, 27 others followed Coke in stating that abortion <410 U.S. 113, 136> of a quick fetus was a "misprision," a term they translated to mean "misdemeanor." 28 That their reliance on Coke on this aspect of the law was uncritical and, apparently in all the reported cases, dictum (due probably to the paucity of common-law prosecutions for post-quickening abortion), makes it now appear doubtful that abortion was ever firmly established as a common-law crime even with respect to the destruction of a quick fetus. ......

It is thus apparent that at common law, at the time of the adoption of our Constitution, and throughout the major portion of the 19th century, abortion was viewed with less disfavor than under most American statutes currently in effect. Phrasing it another way, a woman enjoyed a substantially broader right to terminate a pregnancy than she does in most States today. At least with respect to the early stage of pregnancy, and very possibly without such a limitation, the opportunity <410 U.S. 113, 141> to make this choice was present in this country well into the 19th century. Even later, the law continued for some time to treat less punitively an abortion procured in early pregnancy......

It should be sufficient to note briefly the wide divergence of thinking on this most sensitive and difficult question. There has always been strong support for the view that life does not begin until live birth. This was the belief of the Stoics. 56 It appears to be the predominant, though not the unanimous, attitude of the Jewish faith. 57 It may be taken to represent also the position of a large segment of the Protestant community, insofar as that can be ascertained; organized groups that have taken a formal position on the abortion issue have generally regarded abortion as a matter for the conscience of the individual and her family. 58 As we have noted, the common law found greater significance in quickening. Physicians and their scientific colleagues have regarded that event with less interest and have tended to focus either upon conception, upon live birth, or upon the interim point at which the fetus becomes "viable," that is, potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid. 59 Viability is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks. 60 The Aristotelian theory of "mediate animation," that held sway throughout the Middle Ages and the Renaissance in Europe, continued to be official Roman Catholic dogma until the 19th century, despite opposition to this "ensoulment" theory from those in the Church who would recognize the existence of life from <410 U.S. 113, 161> the moment of conception. 61 The latter is now, of course, the official belief of the Catholic Church. As one brief amicus discloses, this is a view strongly held by many non-Catholics as well, and by many physicians. Substantial problems for precise definition of this view are posed, however, by new embryological data that purport to indicate that conception is a "process" over time, rather than an event, and by new medical techniques such as menstrual extraction, the "morning-after" pill, implantation of embryos, artificial insemination, and even artificial wombs. 62 ......

To summarize and to repeat:

1. A state criminal abortion statute of the current Texas type, that excepts from criminality only a life-saving procedure on behalf of the mother, without regard to pregnancy stage and without recognition of the other interests involved, is violative of the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

(a) For the stage prior to approximately the end of the first trimester, the abortion decision and its effectuation must be left to the medical judgment of the pregnant woman's attending physician.

(b) For the stage subsequent to approximately the end of the first trimester, the State, in promoting its interest in the health of the mother, may, if it chooses, regulate the abortion procedure in ways that are reasonably related to maternal health.

(c) For the stage subsequent to viability, the State in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life <410 U.S. 113, 165> may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion except where it is necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother.



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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. I think it is worth noting...
Edited on Thu May-05-05 12:02 AM by regnaD kciN
...that the Roe-v-Wade decision that is so outrageous to the religious right (including the Roman Catholic leaders who wanted to ban pro-choice legislators from receiving Communion) is actually based in part, via common law, on traditional Roman Catholic moral theology!

:crazy:

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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #13
24. And if you read the above St. Thomas Aquinas was a big factor.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
11. 21.5 weeks
When its viable - but ONLY if nothing more serious develops after.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
14. when it can live outside the womb
and delivering it won't cause more harm to the mother than aborting it.
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fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
15. What about a poll choice for NEVER?
I agree with the posters who thought this format was a bit rigged.
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zann725 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. My response exactly! Woman is NOT a second-class citizen. Her life
is EVERY BIT as important as the life she carries...and NOT any less at ANY time.

I've always thought the most insulting examples of the reverse, were those instances in the past when a woman on life support was kept "alive" for months on end until her baby was carried full-term. As if ALL a Woman is...is an "incubator."
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usregimechange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. We weren't looking at the mothers life vs. the fetuses but since
you mentioned it would it be improper to ignore the life of the fetus the same way as you say, and I agree, that it is improper to ignore the importance of the mother's life? Is one life really great while the other worthless or some where in between?
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. This issue is no one's business but the pregnant woman
and I am offended others are sticking their noses into it.
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usregimechange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #23
30. I am pregnant, will you advise me?
Or is this subject just to difficult for you? It is like asking a fundamentalist why God made plants before he made light.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #30
49. You're male. If you're pregnant, you need more than advice!
Seriously, I think a paraphrase of your question could be, "At what point should the government own a woman's uterus?" So I think the question itself offends many.

Late-term abortions are already illegal, and I can't think of a case where a healthy woman would choose one, but I think the idea of others' opinions about the relative "importance" of our autonomy vs. government control is a hot button.
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usregimechange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
31. I am waiting, since it is a mom's business... got advise?
Or are you going to just cover your eyes like a nun at mardi gras?
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #31
39. So this whole thing was a setup
after all. Well ya got us!

Bye bye. Good luck with that regime change thing.

:hi:
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nickshepDEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
32. Early 2nd trimester, IMO.
Edited on Thu May-05-05 12:54 AM by nickshepDEM
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Spock_is_Skeptical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
33. My answer: never.
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
35. To those who said at birth
Do you really think it should be legal to have an abortion up to the day of birth, even when the baby could be successfully delivered just as easily?
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. I had the same question trits
That has to be an ideaological rather than thoughtful answer.

Surely thee aren't people here who believe a perfectly healthy fetus should be aborted from a perfectly healthy mother the day before delivery.

No one can be that radical.
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. I would hope you are right.
nt
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. Newsflash: Preterm Birth ABORTS a Pregnancy
Gotcha.


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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. That's not what the question asks.
Edited on Thu May-05-05 04:52 AM by tritsofme
when does the interest of protecting the life of the fetus or baby become more important than the self-determination of the mother?

At least as far as I can tell.

Ending the pregnancy prematurely and aborting the fetus are obviously not the same thing.

My question still stands to those answered "at birth," does that mean its ok to end the life of a fetus at 8 or 9 months in an otherwise normal pregnancy?
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usregimechange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #35
46. Now you are going to be accused of being a male, how dare you
care the least bit about other life. Fetuses are just plastic blow up dolls to DU fundamentalists.
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pgh_dem Donating Member (584 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #46
51. they aren't accusing you
Edited on Thu May-05-05 10:57 AM by pgh_dem
It's in your profile:
Username: usregimechange

Profile name Profile value
Member since 2003 before July 6th
Number of posts 2705
Avatar Image
(******)Gender male (*******)
State Missouri
Country US
Homepage http://groups.yahoo.com/group/swmo4progress/
Hobby Social work and reform

And your use of "DU fundamentalist" in this message earns you this smiley:
:hi:
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 04:27 AM
Response to Original message
41. Good to see so many members of this community
have their heads on straight when it comes to this question. I was getting worried.
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Bunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 04:43 AM
Response to Original message
42. Why is this nonsense almost always posted by males?
:shrug:
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. Uterine envy
I'm just sayin'
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Mushroom Donating Member (309 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #42
47. It could be...
...that a couple of males in this thread are pissed that they have to spend their allowance on Mother's Day.
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