My Prediction: the handcuffed 5-yr old is the next Terri Schiavo

[NAO]

This is going to be politicized to the extreme and used by conservatives and the religious reich as their crusade de jour.

"Dr." James Dobson, Radical Cleric and founder of the extremist organization "Focus on the Family" made his name in the Christian community over 20 years ago by extolling the virtue of beating children. His message was that kids needed disciple, and that often included physical discipline.

And as everyone knows, the Extremest Fundamentalist Christians HATE the ACLU, and they hate any "liberal" principals that would interfere with the indoctrination and suppression of insubordination of children. They also hate Child Protective Services (CPS) and believe that they are a bunch of liberal do-gooding snoops who have no business interfering with "family discipline".

So we have a black child, 5 years old, who made a horrific display of bad behavior and did deserve something...but if any liberal causes lift a finger to try to question the appropriateness of that officer's actions - they are going to scream bloody murder and we will witness the next round of the culture wars.

[merh]

1. Nah, they won't touch it with a 10 foot pole.

However, they do blame it on us libs. If it weren't for us telling them and the school teachers and admin that they can't beat our children, they would never have had to call the police. :sarcasm:

My question is how will they blame it on Clinton? :shrug:

[FreedomAngel82]

2. Good question

I wonder how too. Now that will be interesting.

[Erika]

3. Clinton failed to have vision

If he'd had decent vision, this would have never happened. Republicans can never shoulder responsibility. They and their leader are blameless. They are ready to pass a bill that they are also the result of immaculate conception. It "must" be someone else's fault.

As Bush drains our taxes away from the needs of our citizens, it will get worse.

[merh]

6. I just wish they would go ahead and be raptured.

I want my nation back. :cry:

[ComerPerro]

29. Oh that's easy

You see, Clinton had an affair. He cheated on his wife, and got a blowjob from a WH intern.

That lowered the bar, and made it so everything is ok now. If the president is having an affair, its not Joe FReeper's fault that he beats his wife and kids anymore.

[merh]

31. Okay, I see the connection now.

Thanks for the explanation! :eyes:

[fortyfeetunder]

4. The next round started on LBN!

"So we have a black child, 5 years old, who made a horrific display of bad behavior and did deserve something...but if any liberal causes lift a finger to try to question the appropriateness of that officer's actions - they are going to scream bloody murder and we will witness the next round of the culture wars..."

There are some DUers on the LBN thread that firmly believe the cops and the teachers acted appropriately.

[merh]

5. I had heard that, but I am too afraid to go read the thread.

I am afraid my blood pressure would get too high and I might stroke out. :scared:

I don't understand, have repug lites and freepers so infiltrated the board? :shrug:

[NAO]

9. This kid REALLY deserved it...you have to see the footage

to really appreciate what a monster this kid was being. The teachers and admin people worked with her for over an hour before calling the police.

This kid needed to be controlled and was not responding to rational, firm, generally effective methods of controlling a child.

[merh]

13. Several years ago, I worked in a jail as the paralegal.

Pursuant to a federal court order, my job was to provide legal research to the detainees/inmates and to make sure they "maintained their access to the courts". My office was over the holding cells of the "adult detention center". When they would bring in adults with behavior problems, I couldn't help but hear it and would go to holding section to make sure the guards did not "beat the shit" out of the detainee. I mean, what else is a bleeding heart, left wing, tree hugging, civil liberty loving liberal to do?

Our society has no place to take people with mental disorders but jails. And jailers have no training or inadequate training in how to handle folks have psychotic episodes.

It wasn't uncommon for drunks or high folks to beat on the walls to disrupt the jailers or for others who had been held too long in the cells to pound on the windows/walls to get the attention of the guards so that they could get their one phone call or a blanket or a sandwich. They were acting out. I would go down to find out what the commotion was about and funny thing, when I would take the time to go to talk to them, to treat them like people and not evil criminals or trash, they would settle down. I would try to get them what they needed within reason and to talk to them like they were humans.

One day I heard a persistent pounding in the holding cell and I couldn't concentrate, so I went to the holding cell to see what was happening. There was this big guy pounding his head on the window (made of material that is designed not to break). He was just beating his head on the wall. I got his attention and he begged me to call his family, to tell them where he was. He was from out of state and he couldn't reach anyone. He said he needed his meds. I told him if he would settle down I would try to reach his family. I called the number and sure enough his mother and wife were frantic. They said that he was schizophrenic and had left the state with a friend several days before to find his sister in our state. She said he needed his medication and we should get him to a mental hospital. Well, we have no local "mental hospital" and the counseling center/treatment center that is in our area has a waiting list longer than this post. I gave her the names of bond agents and told her I would try to find his sister.

I went back down to tell the guy that I was trying and to check on his charges. He had been arrested for public drunk and resisting arrest. When I went back to his cell, he was stripped naked and the guards said he tried to hang himself with his jump suit. So there was this big guy, hand bleeding from the police stepping on his hand during the arrest and almost ripping his finger tip off, buck naked and crying and screaming in fear, thrashing about the cell. So what do I do, I demand they pop the door so I can go talk to him before he hurts himself. Mind you he was over 6 foot tall and I am but 5'3" and at that time was 120, so it wasn't like I could defend myself if he went off. But I knew he just needed to feel safe and that someone cared. He needed to be treated like a human and to be talked to, not screamed at, not strapped in the restraining chair, not pepper sprayed and not ignored.

I got the paper jumpsuit from the jailers and I went into his cell. I calmed him down, told him that I was trying to find his sister to come get him. He eventually settled down and we sat and talked. It seems that he was arrested when he was trying to let the air out of the tires of HIS OWN truck because his friend had the keys and he didn't want his friend to take his truck. The police didn't know how to deal with him, they scared him and apparently they were scared of him since he was having an episode and they ruffed him up when they arrested him.

I was able to get him to agree to let the med tech come to clean his finger and to treat it as best he could under the circumstances. I got him some food, some water, some tylenol and convinced him to sleep, that he was tired and just needed to rest. I eventually found his sister who came and bonded him out. As far as I know, he was returned to his mother and wife in the other state.

So why did I go on with this tale when we are talking about an out of control child? Duh - disturbed and upset people can be controlled without violence and without handcuffs.

A five year old child can be handled without being handcuffed and for god's sake, when they cuffed her, she was sitting quietly in the chair for well over 5 minutes. She had worn herself out and had stopped her tirade.

Fear is what caused the school admins to "not handle" the situation. I watched that video and I was appalled. The handcuffing was not only uncalled for, it was illegal, no state in the union allows 5 year old children to be arrested and you can only be legally cuffed if you are being arrested.

If I can calm a man having an episode down in a jail by just talking to him, they should have been able to calm down a five year old.

[ima_sinnic]

22. thank you so much for that story--I too have experience

--I have a family member with schizophrenia and know that a confrontation with the police can trigger an episode, which in turn gets the police frantic to the point of brutality, which in turn gets the schizophrenic even more out of control. they really need to train the police a lot better about what we here in Florida call "Baker Acting" someone, i.e., taking them in if they appear to be a danger to themselves or others. they just don't get it, that being calm, talking quietly, will go a lot LOT further than roughing someone up who's off their meds--and I believe that a lot of the time they know it's med-related from the details given by the person who calls 911. Of course not always but when they know it's med-related they need to proceed differently. I applaud your courage and compassion in that situation and just wish all jail-related people could be more like that. when my relative was arrested, though, the staff in the infirmary at the jail did seem to understand his needs but he had been abused by the police before getting there.

[merh]

24. We call it a signal 47.

Unfortunately, due to the repuke take over of this nation, the sheriff I worked for lost the election and I knew my "liberal" ways would not be appreciated if I stayed at the jail. Even while he was in office the jailers resented me and had tried to run me off. It seems, in the jailers' minds, my "liberal" ways meant I cared more for the detainees than the jailers. They tried everything they could, including planting drugs in my library trying to make it appear I was trying to bring in contraband. For my own safey, I left soon after the new neo-con sheriff took office.

Now they have armed the jailers with tasers! :cry: They train the jailers on how to use them, but not on how to diffuse a situation without violence. :scared: Someone will die because of their failure to see that the golden rule is vital. If the jailers would just try to put themselves in the detainees position and realize that basic human respect is all anyone asks for, then maybe they would find there are other ways to handle situations and they wouldn't feel compelled (frightened into) using violence or strong arm tactics.

[Zookeeper]

26. Thank you for sharing your experience!

I have only seen a clip of the incident on Countdown, but, as the mother of three children, my immediate reaction was that the child needed a hug or some nurturing, not to be terrified by uniformed cops getting involved. If anyone should have been brought in, it should have been her parent(s).

I will look around for the entire video, but it will take a lot to convince me that it required THREE police officers to subdue a five year old. I have a fairly oppositional 14 1/2 year old and, if necessary, I think I could still physically subdue him by myself.

[merh]

27. That other thread has the link to the video.

I can't stand to watch it. Those teachers and the vice-principal were clueless on how to handle the poor child.

It was late in the afternoon, she probably needed a nap and after everyone got involved and made her feel like they were against her, she was scared to death. Many of us react to our fears by becoming aggressive and trying to scare off our attackers.

:cry: She is just a child.

[barb162]

33. what would you have done when the child was acting out

for an hour beforehand in the classroom, distrupting and being destructive? Especially when the mom said she couldn't come there?

[Zookeeper]

35. Well, after watching a longer version of the video....

which can be found at:

http://www.tampabaylive.com/stories/2005/04/050422girlarrest.shtml

(scroll down to "raw story.")

I'm certain that I wouldn't have called uniformed police to handcuff the child.

What I saw in the video:

-The teachers stayed pretty cool and calm, which is admirable, but I did think that everyone was very impersonal with the girl and really kept her at arm's length. That child needs to have SOMEONE interact with her in a more personal and caring fashion. That certainly wasn't the worst tantrum I've ever seen and it didn't even seem as angry as desperate for attention and interaction.

-In one of the video segments, the girl and a teacher are being observed and filmed through and glass window. You can hear a comment that the little girl is "destroying the office!" All I saw was her pulling things off of a bulletin board and it looked like she had thrown papers on the floor. I think that qualifies as annoying and bratty, but hardly rampant destruction.

-The girl tried to hit the teacher. The teacher appeared to effortlessly ward off what I'm sure would have been crushing blows from the five-year old's deadly fists of fury.

-My bet is that the teachers are exhausted and lack the resources and support to deal with troubled kids (or else they'd have someone to call besides the police). However, a five year old child shouldn't have to suffer the stupidity and selfishness of a community that refuses to adequately fund its schools and social services. The teachers shouldn't have to suffer for it either, but they are the adults and have more control over the matter than a kindergartener.

A five year old child is a work in progress. Not many children that age are capable of expressing their fears and anger in a completely logical and insightful way. (Heck, plenty of adults can't do it!) That's why we take the time to teach them. Someone made a comment on another thread that the child is "incorrigible." I can't imagine labeling and dismissing a child's possibilities based on temper tantrums!
:rant:

I didn't mean to rant, but I was thinking about this while doing yardwork today and these were the points that really stuck with me.

[barb162]

36. As I kept thinking about it I thought the parents and child should

be in therapy. What struck me the most was this child was hitting or trying to hit an adult. Like what would have happened to you when you were that age and tried to hit an adult? She would have gotten slapped BUT GOOD at the school I attended many years ago. Even though I disagree with hitting kids, a slap from the teacher at the beginning of the tantrum in the previous hour and being sent to the coatroom to think about it would have possibly stopped the kid in her tracks.I think she was actually hitting the principal's hands several times (or maybe just trying). But in either case this indicates to me a very out-of-control kid who hasn't learned any boundaries, doesn't know or care that an authority figure is not supposed to be hit, etc. Maybe she hits her parents at home? Whatever this kid is learning at home, if anything, it isn't right.

I also thought the kid should have been put in a therapeutic hold but it may not have been legal to touch the kid. I thought this was one very disturbed kid becaue she has very disturbed parents who don't know how to properly discipline a kid and teach them about proper boundaries. Even at age 3 and 4 she should have been taught you don't go around hitting adults.

Several posters on another thread were upset about the kid being scared out of her wits about the cops. The cops were overkill but maybe this kid needs a good scaring. I noticed she started crying wildly when the cops were there ( because she couldn't be destructive and hitting anymore?) and the tantrum stopped ASAP when the cops came. It's funny how fast the tantrum stopped once those cops got there. Again, all I saw was a very disturbed kid. I would bet she is oppositional-defiant and that comes from one place...rotten parenting.

I am not concerned about the kid hurting the teacher or principal. That's not the point. It is the intent of the child, that this child should have stopped this bullshit a few years before or never thought of starting it, that she is clearly not ready to be in a social or learning setting without being disruptive, destructive, attention-getting, that she has zero respect for adults, etc. I never was in a classroom where a kid hit a teacher and I could never even comprehend hitting my parents, maybe because back then, 300 years ago, we would have gotten one good beating. Back then parents didn't care if it hurt your little developing psyche, they just wanted the antisocial behavior to stop. Oh well, that's my 2 cents.

[Zookeeper]

44. I can't imagine hitting an adult at that age either....

and even young children who lash out at their parents, usually will exhibit more self-control around teachers. Clearly, that little girl has issues, whether they arise from poor parenting or her own innate temperament. I agree with you about the therapeutic hold. That and a rocking chair may have helped, since she really was doing everything she could think of to get a reaction/attention/contact.

The elementary schools in my district each have a Behavioral Manager to deal with issues like that (and we're not a rich school district). There is a social worker and school psychologist who visit schools as neeeded. Floridians need to get their act together and adequately fund their schools, especially since they have a fairly large number of at-risk students.

My mother volunteers in a FLA elementary school as a "Listener" for kids who need extra help and attention. Something that has changed over her 10 or so years of volunteering is that the Listeners are now allowed to hug the children. When she started, they were instructed to avoid physical contact with them. So, hopefully something like a hug or a therapeutic hold will become more of an option in these situations.

Some wise person said, "When a child is at her most unlovable is when she most needs love."

[barb162]

50. good points; I think love and proper discipline, and by that I mean

escalating penalties for inappropriate behavior, would have done wonders for this child. Florida, oh well. They are so well known for not exactly funding their schools well. I noticed this was St.Petersburg with a huge % of older people who don't want to pay high taxes. I can't blame the seniors for this, especially if they are just hanging on financially.

[ProudDad]

45. Therapy costs money

And this society won't pony up...

This little girl is probably sick, not evil.

What the cops did was inappropriate because they are not the appropriate type of help the teachers or the girl needed.

May I trot out the old chestnut -- Universal and readily available health care? Single-payer and all that.

[barb162]

51. Oh I agree, we need univeral hc in this country.

I don't think the kid is evil; I think her parents lack parenting skills. (The fact that teacher had the video ready was I'll bet because she was dealing with the same behavior so often from this child she wanted to film it/prove it how disruptive this child was). If the teachers or school people can touch the child, she should have been put in a hold...but I don't know if that district allows that. They don't allow touching of the kids in my district

[EFerrari]

39. I would have had a plan in place. As a professional,

that would have been my responsibility.

1 in 10 kids have behavioral problems, so as a professional, I would have planned for that.

This is not rocket science. You need a partner, a plan and a safe space for the child to be in until you can hand her to someone who knows what the hell they're doing.

[ProudDad]

46. HEAR, HEAR!!

Now if there was as much of our tax dollars spent on early childhood, job creation, mental and medical health and treatment as there has been on bush's phony war in Iraq...

[merh]

52. Amen!

And a belated Welcome to DU, ProudDad! :hi:

[barb162]

38. I wonder if the parents ever properly disciplined that child.

Something tells me the answer is NO. The child seemed to be acting very undisciplined and disrepectful (hitting or trying to hit an adult), as an out-of-control 3 year old instead of a five year old. And there's a big diff in age appropriate behavior.

This child reminds me of a boy I know who is now about 15. Parents were complete idiots, always gave utterly inappropriate and inadequate discipline and penalties for acting out, bad behavior, etc. The kid is now a total mess, a liar, a phony, he steals, etc. But you could see it happening every step of the way from about the age of 2. Same crap with his older sister, who is the queen of car accidents and getting tickets from cops for speeding and car crashes. The parents cannot figure out why the kids are like this. Everyone else can figure it out who has watched it over the years.

[ProudDad]

47. Excuse me

but do the words "mental illness" ring a bell?

How about having to live in a house that's covered in lead-based paint? Or next door to a chemical plant or refinery.

You reactively blame the parent without knowing all of the facts.

Hmm, it was a black child, I wonder what if there would have been the same coverage and slant to the story if it was a rich white child (and I'm CERTAIN that "spoiled little rich kids" have done this sort of thing too. Mental illness doesn't care about class).

[barb162]

49. If it is mental illness, aren't the parents supposed to get

help for the child? I read this isn't the first time the child acted that way. My story of the boy...he IS a rich white child, a total snot because his parents trained him that way. When I was watching the child act out on that video I was thinking "Andrew number 2" as the behaviors were so incredibly similar.

By the way, this morning a pediatrician/child development specialist from UCLA was on Good Morning America discussing the video. He said the teacher and principal were basically handling things correctly but they could have done better in trying to get the child to cooperate picking up the crap she was throwing all over the place, to try to commiserate a bit more, etc. But then again the teachers are there to teach a classroom full of kids, not to be therapists for one child at the expense of all the other kids.

[fortyfeetunder]

10. Yes.

The heat in the debate has seemed to float over the approprateness of the school administration and law enforcement.

However, the one issue that is not discussed in detail is possible behavioral health issues for the child and her family. Not even mentioned.

This was not the child's first offense, which makes me believe her problems weren't even addressed, by her own parent. The easy way out was to call the cops.

[Erika]

16. A child can have a 2nd offense at 5 years of age?

What has happened to this country, for God's sake?

[bread_and_roses]

19. I braved it and found MOST responses recognizing the insanity/cruelty

of treating a FIVE year old in such a way. Multiple posters report watching the video and say that the child was sitting quietly at the point when they went to handcuff her. I can't possibly watch the video or I WOULD no doubt "stroke out." The photo at the top of the thread of that poor child's face as they are putting the cuffs on her is enough to tie my stomach in knots.

[merh]

25. I finally braved it.

I did notice many recognized the insanity of the behavior of the school and the police, but god help us, some posters thought it was okay. :cry: Handcuffing a 5 year old, how can that ever be okay?

[Orangepeel]

18. firmly believing they acted appropriately and screaming "bloody murder"

at anyone who tries to question whether or not they did, are very different things.

I didn't watch the footage and I don't know whether or not the actions were appropriate. But I do know that DUers on both sides of the issue are entitled to their opinions.

[ngGale]

48. People who believe it was appropriate behavior...

was surprising to me. Just shows the closing in of a military state without people even noticing. Instead of trying to calm the child, police force was the first response. :scared:

[fishwax]

53. some of the responses really boggled my mind (n/t)

[DesEtoiles]

7. What kind of circus is Jeb running down there?

perverts on the loose?

handcuffing kindergardeners?

[Maat]

8. When I was a social worker ...

I was always able to calm the child down and talk the cops out of handcuffing.

But I'm going to have to check out the situation you guys are talking about - I don't know the details.

[Erika]

11. Yeah, those 5 year old girls are really a threat.

Handcuff them, send them to jail. Throwing a tantrum should bring at least 10 years under the GOP Jeb's justice system.

[merh]

15. Can you imagine the tantrums the weed used to throw as a child?

:shrug:

[merh]

30. I have got to disagree with you, though you are entitled to your

opinion. No state in the union allows a 5 year old to be arrested. That being said, the police cannot legally handcuff someone who is not under arrest or who is not a threat. She was sitting in a chair, not acting out when they cuffed her. SHE WAS ONLY 5 YEARS OLD.

[Imagevision]

12. There's always the Pope updates on his performance.

Obeseity has been big lately -- they've got nothing to report -- they don't want you to know that a minimum of one oil pipeline gets blown up weekly in Iraq --- shhh...no iraq news -- the 500+ Iraki troops getting dead in the past 90 days don't count -- they're not American.

[Erika]

14. Appreciate your response

Yeah, 5 year old girls are more of a headline than the truth as shown at www.icasualties.org about the Iraq fiasco.

[merh]

17. You know, I do appreciate your reminders, but do not downplay

the importance of this crime.

Did you ever think you would hear that our society would condone the handcuffing of a 5 year old?

This is just one of the symptoms of our sick nation. The killing in Iraq and the destruction we have caused and continue to cause in our attempts to colonize are very important, but hell, most americans don't care, "as long as we are fighting them (substitute racist slur, bad guy, boogey man) over there."

When freedoms at home are stripped, when liberals (see that awful thread) can condone the illegal handcuffing of a 5 year old, then maybe folks will figure out that the weed has got to go!

[ohioan]

20. Imagine the outrage if this had been a little white girl . . .

handcuffed by three black cops as she sat quietly in a chair.

[merh]

21. Exactly.

Our society is so f'd up. :cry:

[fishwax]

54. no doubt this story would be treated *much* differently

if that were the case.

[thecai]

23. I Predict Mini-Mini-Prisons

...playhouse-size, for "wayward" children. Privatized, for profits. Fully equipped factories to promote child-slavery...
What's to stop this administration from doing this?

I wonder if our Law Enforcement should be trained in child-behaviour?

[Zookeeper]

28. "Mini-Mini-Prison" factories...

sponsored by Wal-Mart, under the guise of "social-service." Hey, it would teach those unruly children a "skill," keep them off the street and help maintain Wal-Mart's low, low prices!

[samilib]

32. What people like Dobson do not realize.

This behavior could come from a lack of discipline. There is a bigger chance that it comes from something psychologically wrong with the child or that the child was taught to be violent.

Hopefully, child experts can beat pseudo experts like Dobson.

[KittyWampus]

34. The Craft Forum I Visit Has Lots Of Rightwing Ladies...

they ALL took a balanced view of the situation.

They also were disgusted by T. Schiavo.

[merh]

37. Thank you - that is very encouraging.

:hi:

[tsuki]

40. I cannot convince anyone, but this is my take on the situation. It is

all about privatizing. In the late 1980's, I was told that education would be privatized. It would take a generation, but the plans were in place to alienate the public against the public school system.

In Florida, tenure is gone, and privatizing is happening. Every wart of the public system is being exposed to an aging population that resents the taxes paid to the system.

[merh]

41. I believe you, I definitely believe you.

That is why they are cutting the social services, why they are not funding education, corrections, human services, etc.

If the programs start falling behind, if they can't meet their goals and provide their services, then the corporations run by their political cronies, sweep in and offer to take over the tasks.

Divide and piratize! The motto of the Neo-cons!

It is up to us to stop them and the first step to take is to recognize what they are doing.

[merh]

42. Posted in another thread.

What the majority of the "pro teachers/school" posters and the "bad cops/bad school" posters have missed is that these type of "incidents" will escalate because of the cut backs in funding to education, social services, law enforcement and the almost none existent funding for mental health. Add to that our awful economy that forces parents to work too much at too many jobs, neglecting their children so that they can provide for their children, and we are on a downward spiral. Not excusing the extreme measures that this school chose to take, just saying things like this will continue to happen because of the thugs we have running our nation.

Things will get worse folks, as long as we have the theiving, corrupt bastards in office, piratizing everything, not funding social services, not caring about the families they profess to represent. What family values do they really care about? Protecting estate taxes and tax cuts for the rich while not funding after school programs or "no child left behind" programs. Schools are cutting positions because there is no funding, classrooms are growing in size and a "teacher's aid" is an almost extinct position.

Not until we get the snakes out of our government will we see an improvement. Every day they remain in office incidents like this will continue to occur.

Recognize the true issues and debate them and how we can make changes and what we can do.



www.missionnotaccomplished.us

[readermostly]

43. But Sean Hannity was all for it.

Did saw miss the talking points?

[democracyindanger]

55. Nope. She's not white.

It's that simple.