Possible flame bait: Is Howard Dean a loose cannon?

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

This is not a Freeper post. I'm only asking because there seems to be a pattern developing in which Dean makes statements (the recent Limbaugh crack; when he said "I hate Republicans and all they stand for") that are no more vicious than the statements Repubs have made, but only seem to backfire? Look, I have very little sympathy for Limbaugh, but while isn't running for President anymore, he is the chairman of the DNC, and the de facto leader of the Party. You all know that whenever Dems do this, there is a double standard. They media wants Dean to fail, and this personal attack, which Dean himself admitted was undignified, only gives our enemies more ammo.

I think the leadership, besides actually putting forth proposals that aren't Republican-lite, the leaders must make a reasonable effort to reach out to other voters. After all, how else does the Democratic leadership distinguish itself from the likes of Tom DeLay? Both sides engage in attacks, and the Republicans have been worse overall, but you know how the media works.

All I'm saying is, Dean needs to control his urge to lash out, and rise above the vitriol with ideas. If Dean can't control his temper, then we'll have big problems come 2006 and 2008. I'm not suggesting we abandon our principles, but we needn't repay evil with evil, but overcome evil with good. Many of you'll say, "we don't need to reach out to red states-screw them."

And we'll keep losing elections.

OK, I'm done.

[NYCGirl]

1. This is flamebait, and why the hell are you quoting Limbaugh? NT

[LoZoccolo]

3. Where did he quote Limbaugh?

What?

[NYCGirl]

7. The first paragraph. NT

[Dickie Flatt]

14. still dont see it..

[LoZoccolo]

17. A line-by-line analysis.

This is not a Freeper post.

Not in the first sentence.

I'm only asking because there seems to be a pattern developing in which Dean makes statements (the recent Limbaugh crack; when he said "I hate Republicans and all they stand for") that are no more vicious than the statements Repubs have made, but only seem to backfire?

Not in the second one. No Limbaugh there, just Dean.

Look, I have very little sympathy for Limbaugh, but while isn't running for President anymore, he is the chairman of the DNC, and the de facto leader of the Party.

Not in the third one.

You all know that whenever Dems do this, there is a double standard.

Not in the fourth one.

They media wants Dean to fail, and this personal attack, which Dean himself admitted was undignified, only gives our enemies more ammo.

Not in the fifth one.

Look what you've become. Look! what! you've! become! Do you think this knee-jerking in the service of Dean does anything for Dean or you? Serious, back up a little and check yourself. This is disturbing. I don't know what's scarier, the speed at which you jumped on it initially, or the part where you didn't even check it again before saying you were right the first time.

[NYCGirl]

26. Since you called me "sir" before your edit, I didn't realize you were

talking to me.

I was referring to this:
the recent Limbaugh crack; when he said "I hate Republicans and all they stand for"

I may have misread it, but it's still a valid question, thinking that the poster was quoting Limbaugh.

And I'd appreciate it if you didn't yell and/or lecture me. If you're so disturbed by my posts, perhaps you should put me on ignore. The OP knew that this post would generate heat, otherwise he wouldn't have labeled it "possible flamebait" nor started with the "I'm not a freeper" stuff.

[LoZoccolo]

29. Just trying to help you out...if you don't want it I'll step back...

P.S. The OP knew that a bunch of ratcheted fanatics would pounce on him, that's why he approached cautiously.

[NYCGirl]

30. I'd appreciate that step back. NT

[LoZoccolo]

33. But I'll just heap one more ember into the furnace if I may...

If you honestly believe*, as your actions seem to indicate, that Dean needs an entourage of shouter-downers to maintain his public image, do you really think he's up to the job?

_{*NOTE: I don't believe this myself, I'm just saying.}

[lojasmo]

82. I don't appreciate the characterization "racheted fanatics"

It's bullshit, and you should appologize.

[LoZoccolo]

88. Who said it applied to you?

I didn't.

[lojasmo]

99. That being said, it's a personal attack, and a shitty characterization.N/T

[Kipepeo]

46. No, but the OP calls it the "Limbaugh crack"

and mentions Limbaugh again futher down, giving away that this is a Dean quote much talked about by Limbaugh.

I don't listen to Limbaugh. So I guess that's why that Dean quote doesn't seem like such a big deal to me.

In fact, I don't think it's a big deal to much of anyone.

And, for what it's worth, the Dean quote is taken out of context...it would be nice if we didn't accept Limbaugh's shortened version of the quote.

[LoZoccolo]

50. So if Rush Limbaugh quotes someone, we're no longer allowed to?

The statement no longer exists?

And if it's out of context, that's part of the point of this discussion. That Dean needs to learn how to speak such that he's not so easily taken out of context. We can cry about how unfair it is, but that won't do anything to stop it. Someone needs to learn to work around it.

[Kipepeo]

55. How silly

Of course not. My point is that I don't think the quote would have been called the "Limbaugh crack" (afterall Limbaugh has nothing to do with the quote) were it not for the OP hearing Limbaugh rail about it over and over. I also don't think the quote would have been truncated were it not for the OP quoting Limbaugh's truncated version. I tend not to listen to right-wing-radio bashing of Dems if I can help it, because it usually always distorts my view of the issue at hand (giving me wrong information or blowing something out of proportion, lilke this quote for example).

There is nothing wrong with the way Dean speaks, imho. I think the problem is in the way some people listen, Limbaugh especially.

[LoZoccolo]

57. Well then, all we have to do is make sure everyone listens correctly.

Shouldn't be too difficult, and we should be able to sustain any damage caused by incorrect listening in the meantime anyways, so let's go for it!

[Kipepeo]

59. I would think it would be just as easy

as making sure everyone speaks correctly.

let's get to work! ;)

[lojasmo]

83. People are going to go out of their way to misrepresent Dean

Hell, there are plenty of "racheted fanatics" on this very board who go out of their way to do so....all the time.

[LoZoccolo]

89. I would agree.

But then there are also Dean supporters who misrepresent him by turning him into a demagogue who must be defended from criticism, which he doesn't even try to be. He's always maintained that it's the people who volunteered to strengthen his campaign, and who now volunteer to strengthen the party, who "have the power".

Another misrepresentation is the people who market him as a far-leftie while at the same time alienating moderates with raw combative rhetoric, setting him up to have the rug pulled out from under him when he disillusions those far-lefties with a "moderate" position (like his stance on Iraq - which I don't even think is an ideological issue as much as a practical one for the people of Iraq), seeing as he's really a moderate in many ways.

[Psephos]

23. He quoted Dean, not Limbaugh

Even if he had quoted Limbaugh, I've got no problem with it. I'm not afraid of anything that gasbag says.

Although I am completely behind Dean, and think his call-'em-as-you-see-'em style is just what we need, I don't care for inhibiting legitimate questions, either here, or in the larger national debate.

Labeling a legitimate post from a long-established poster as flamebait is an act of suppression. Next time, the poster simply won't ask his or her question. I want to hear opinions; that's why I come here.

If a question is dumb, it will die its own death.

Peace. :)

[LoZoccolo]

28. This totalitarian approach to Dean really needs to stop.

Has shouting people down ever worked? Do the shouted-down learn their lesson from it? Do the bystanders walk away believing the shouters, or the shouted?

[Kipepeo]

48. who is shouting at you?

just curious

[LoZoccolo]

No one, not at me. You can't shout over the Internet anyways.

The whole "why the hell" Limbaugh thing was a transparent intimidation tactic, though.

[Kipepeo]

56. Really? Seeing Limbaugh twice in the post

gave me pause.

I (incorrectly, I now see) thought the OP was calling the truncated Dean quote the "Limbaugh crack." I thought the same thing as the person who originally responded, so I don't think it was an intimidation tactic. The OP is assuming everyone knows Dean made a Limbaugh joke recently. I didn't.

btw, "Limbaugh crack" - that's funny in and of itself. :D

[madfloridian]

76. I included Ask Jeeves in the searches as well.

I am just not finding where he was even covered over this issue except by O'Reilly who was defending Rush with Dick Morris chiming in.

Was it on CNN or MSNBC and I missed it? It is not showing up in a search online.

[Zynx]

2. YEEEEEEEEEARRRRRRRGH!!!

That's Dean's defining moment and fairly or not, it shapes the interpretation of everything he does.

Dean also had a rep as being a bit of a hothead before the campaign.

[NYCGirl]

4. Really? I never heard that he was a hothead. Other than what was trumped

up by the right wing, that is. Quote sources?

[snowbear]

5. Screw ButtBoil

Go for it Howard !! :headbang:

YEEEAaahaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

[BattyDem]

6. The only reason they "backfire" ...

is because the media crucifies him, but Delay threatens Federal judges and the media doesn't say a f*cking word! :grr:

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

10. Yeah, I know. My point was that no matter what Repubs do,

if the Democratic leadership makes one crude remark, the media is all over it, and the Repubs are ignored. I'm just saying that Dean ought not fuel this fire, and should control himself.

[Dr.Phool]

21. So, they're gonna do it any goddamn way.

I hate everything Republicans stand for also. They're drunk with power. I think a guy like Dean can start putting the heat on them.

I say fuck 'em. Burn the whole house down! They won't have a place to sleep either. The media is gonna marginalize us no matter what. At least if we come out fighting, we have a chance of winning. But if we keep being doormats, we'll be walked on forever.

[madfloridian]

43. So you are saying we should be proper to please the Republicans.

Guess what. We did that last year. They were very very pleased. We were so proper we could not even speak straight about what we believed.

[BattyDem]

47. I understand what you're saying, but ...

that's exactly what the Repugs want Dean - and us - to do. That's why they jump all over him: they want to intimidate him. They bully, harrass and intimidate Dean and the Dems for one reason only - to stifle dissent. If we shut up and/or begin to watch what we say, they win. JMHO

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

97. So what does he do, then? How does he overcome that?

[Kipepeo]

54. Dean is not fueling fires, those like Limbaugh fuel the fires

no matter what comes out of Dean's mouth. Perhaps he should quit speaking for fear his words will be misused and mangled?

The last thing I want in a DNC chair is some timid mouse, afraid of pissing off the repuke talking-heads. Whatever they were doing before did not work. I would like to try something different. Dean's got the suport of the people and so far, I've liked his new on-the-ground in swing states early approach.

"Control himself?" LOL, he's not some raving lunatic. I crack up every time I hear this wild-man talking point. He is no beastman. :)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

8. Correction

probable

[brokensymmetry]

9. People seem to think that lashing out is bad.

Is it? We've tried the elder statesman approach. It hasn't worked, has it?

Notice what limbaugh and his fellows do. They speak to the masses, they target their passions, their greeds, their fear. And it has worked.

It's time we spoke from the heart. It's time to harness the deeply felt anger that a great many Americans feel. And if Dean has the courage to do that, to ride that dangerous tiger - then I say God bless him!

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

15. I'm all for courage. I respect Dean's passion.

But he just needs to be careful.

[madfloridian]

64. Careful of what?

Careful of whom? I have not seen much in the google and Yahoo searches I did. I found one National ledger, one mention at another site, and one at Kos. The Kos referred to O'Reilly's show.

I don't see any thing else.

[seaglass]

84. You are aware that most newspaper archived articles are

not available via google or yahoo? You need to Lexis-Nexis.

[noamnety]

11. Don't confuse his personality with the media's portrayal of him

There is no loose cannon. There's just a carefully crafted media message, based on filtering.

If the media introduced every clip of Bush with a clip of him storming off stage in a hissy fit because a reporter asked a question about Ken Lay, it would become Bush's defining moment. But they choose not to.

Dean is no more a loose cannon than any other politician.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

19. OK, good point.

It does seem that Repubs are more clever at portraying their public image. Of course, with the media on their side in this regard, we need to step it up.

[johncoby2]

12. Yes. So the *uck what?

Hell I rather have a loose cannon than a loose noodle.

[madfloridian]

13. Is that what O'Reilly said?

I heard something about that. O'Reilly and Dick Morris were lecturing Dean for comments about Rush.

Guess we will have to wait for the video before we fire him.

[Carolab]

18. I was THERE.

I was sitting six rows back from him in the Minneapolis Convention Center last night.

It was a FUNNY off-the-cuff thing and EVERYONE was laughing.

He was mocking Rush and put one finger on one side of his nose and acted as if he was snorting coke.

C'mon, EVERYONE, RUSH IS A DOPE FIEND. Who DOESN'T know that?

Instead of FLAMING Dean, you should be FLAMING O'LIELLY. Spam his e-mail and tell him to STFU. Mr. Loofah is defending Mr. Oxycontin and you think Dean should shut up?

WTF???

[Dickie Flatt]

16. Yeah, he is.

But, you know, I don't care. I'd say things like Dean; why should I hold him to a higher standard than myself?

[Meeker Morgan]

20. Well of course the pubbie spin will be that Howard's a hothead ...

... because the "wimp" thing definitely won't stick to him.

[Carolab]

22. Someone asked him last night if the party made him chairman because...

they wanted to try to "reign him in".

He basically responded, well if that's the case GOOD LUCK TO THEM. IOW, FAT CHANCE, AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

I am sick of people giving in to the RW trash talk about Dean. OOOOHHHH, he should shut up and be careful......

What a CROCK. Being "NICE" is what is WRONG with the "party" and why the right is stepping all over us.

STOP BEING TIMID and don't tell Howard to stifle.

By the way, he followed this with "that's not very professional, I guess, but then I'm not running for president anymore".

[snowbear]

25. Yeah, really!

What Carolab said: :headbang:

...."What a CROCK. Being "NICE" is what is WRONG with the "party" and why the right is stepping all over us."

Keep it up Howard ..
:yourock:

[madfloridian]

31. I heard it was funny, not that vicious.

I am getting a little tired of the constant tippy toeing around.

Let him be himself.

This is wee bit obvious, and it is definitely flamebait.

[madfloridian]

36. You were there, your statement is not being noticed.

Something is wrong with this picture.

DUers should be ashamed of themselves.

[asjr]

24. I love Howard Dean! He tells the truth and did it before

any other Democrat did.

[Azathoth]

27. Dean has chronic foot-in-mouth syndrome

and this problem has been constantly exploited by his enemies, whether they be the GOP, the media, or other Democrats. Now that he's chairman, his tendency to make hard-edged or foolish comments is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it gives the party some much-needed backbone. The GOP is not in any way shy about saying outrageous, hateful things, and the Democrats have to be prepared to stand their ground and hit back. On the other hand, Dean's comments are now perceived as representing the entire Democratic party and not just a single candidate, which means that if he isn't careful, he could end up sinking entire slates of Democratic candidates. I don't see Dean as being a loose cannon, but I think the GOP and the media could potentially turn him into one if he's not careful. I'm reserving my judgment of him until I see how he handles the 06 midterms.

[madfloridian]

32. LOL The GOP will turn anyone into anything.

.

[Carolab]

35. Dean speaks the truth and that is what people want.

Stifle him and stifle the truth.

If the truth seems hard-edged or foolish to YOU, that's YOUR problem, not HIS.

His HONESTY is the reason the right FEARS and ATTACKS him. BECAUSE ALL THEY KNOW HOW TO DO IS LIE, LIE, LIE.

[Azathoth]

53. I hate to break it to you

but if I find something Dean says to be foolish or outlandish, then the average moderate voter is probably going to find it to be downright offensive and nutty (particularly after the oh-so-liberal media gets done flogging it). I'm an easy audience; I agree with nearly all of Dean's positions. The people who matter -- the moderate/independent/non-political voters that Dean is trying to woo -- are not such an easy audience. They don't necessarily agree with all of his positions, and unlike the Dean-cultists, they certainly don't believe that Dean has any more of a monopoly on "THE TRUTH" than Karl Rove has. They see him as just another liberal politican/party chairman, which means they expect him to be forceful and partisan, but not foolish or outlandish. So far, Dean hasn't done too badly, but he is going to have to be very careful when the campaign season starts again.

[Carolab]

58. Oh, I see, you speak for all of the moderate average voters out there.

First of all, prove it.

Second, where is it written that the moderate average voters don't already know that Rush Limbaugh is a lying windbag dope fiend?

[Azathoth]

61. No, I speak as a moderate liberal

who generally agrees with Dean but does not worship him. I know roughly where I fit in on the spectrum of political opinion, and I think it's a fairly good bet that if I cringe at something Dean says, then the average moderates (who are almost certainly to the right of me and are probably not sold on Dean) are going to cringe as well.

I'm not really worried about his comments about Rush Limbaugh. I'm worried about impromptu comments like the one he made about African-American/minority hotel employees shortly after he was elected chairman. Comments like those may be well-intentioned, but they practically beg to be misinterpreted and perceived as outlandish (and in that particular case, racist). I can guarantee you that if Dean makes a gaffe like that during the 06 midterms, it will haunt us right up through election day.

[madfloridian]

65. Do not do the worship thing. It is belittling to us.

I am a moderate also. I have not ever been offended by things he has said. I may not agree always, but it does not offend.

[Azathoth]

67. I'm not offended by what he says either

But I do cringe when he slips up and says things that I know are going to be used against us.

I'm sorry if you took offense to my use of the term "worship," as I certainly wasn't directing it toward you. But when someone tells me "if {what Dean says} seems hard-edged or foolish to YOU, that's YOUR problem, not HIS", then I think that person is allowing their personal love for the guy impact their judgment.

[madfloridian]

68. I just don't find his statements that controversial. I know what she means

I have seen our Democrats go through a period where they cringed if you said boo to them. They did it all last year. They are starting to speak up some now, partly because Howard Dean is on the phone to Reid and Pelosi and getting thoughts shared.

I just don't find him outrageous or anything like that. I find it upsetting that many folks are afraid to post here and say anything good about him for fear of attack.

Now that is not a healthy situation.

[Azathoth]

74. I think 99% of what he says is spot on

Believe me, I agree with most of what Howard Dean says and stands for. He almost single-handedly gave the Democrats something resembling a backbone during the election. Fundamentally, I have no problem with him as chairman, and I think he is basically doing a good job. But I think he has a bad tendency to make off-the-cuff comments that can be used against us, and I get worried when people tell me that this is somehow "my problem". My original point was that Dean needs to be careful; he needs to consider his remarks beforehand. He can hammer the GOP all he wants (and he's currently doing a good job of it), but he needs to be careful that he doesn't hand them ammunition in the process. Sometimes, it's as simple as being careful how he phrases things. 99% of the time he's fine, but as we discovered in 2004, all the GOP needs during an election season is one or two good screwups to seize upon. The media has already picked up the meme that Dean is a "loose cannon", and they are going to be scrutinizing him very carefully, looking for any opportunity to push this image.

[madfloridian]

75. I think we have the Stockholm Syndrome.

We are afraid to offend because we are in awe of our so-called captors. It may be grudging, but we are afraid.

[Azathoth]

77. Well, I'm not particularly afraid of offending GOP nutballs

But I am afraid of offending or alienating people who might be looking for a reason to vote Democrat. And by 2006, I think there are going to be a lot of people looking for that reason. So far, Dean has been saying all the right things. I just don't want him to shoot himself and the party in the foot during the next election with some particularly poor choice of words. I am, however, very hopeful :D

[CTLawGuy]

86. what you're essentially saying

is we should say nothing (or nothing more controversial than "I like mom, apple pie and baseball") for fear of it being exploited by Republicans.


Let me ask you this, do the Repugs act with ANY regard whatsoever to what WE might say about them? And how many institutions of the federal government do they control? How many institutions do we control?

[Psephos]

90. I think what he is saying is, umm, what he is saying

Not what you say he is saying.

No offense, but why spin Azazoth's responses? He's been quite level-headed and even-tempered in his posts, and can speak for himself.

Nowhere in Azazoth's posts does he advise that Dean steer clear of controversial subjects. How did you reach that conclusion? Azazoth's position - with which I concur - is that what you say, and how you say it, are both components of the total message. What good is it if Dean commits political blunders by saying something flip before thinking about the political impact? Political speech must be judged by its results.

As I posted earlier, I love having Dean heading up the national party. About time we had a straight shooter. That doesn't mean he gets a free pass, though. He has to be in control of his message and astute about using language. He has to bring people under our tent, not drive them away. It's called politics.

I think he's going to do just fine.

Peace.

[CTLawGuy]

92. the point of my post

,forgive my use of hyperbole about saying "nothing",

is why is it a good idea to sit around and worry about what the Republicans are going to say or do?

You can never get 100% of the vote on your side... so you will sadly offend at least one voter.

We can't worry about trying not to offend anyone, because if you do that, you essentially can't say anything, because someone will disagree and therefore be turned off by you if you take even one position.

When you try that, you end up like Kerry, a guy whom the average voter can't make out other than he served in Vietnam. He was too afraid first off to oppose "popular" aspects of the Bush agenda, such as war and tax cuts, and that left him often contradicting himself or seeming wishy-washy on the campaign.

Dean did well early in the season because he took positions and gave people clear warning of where he stood. Unfortunately for Dean supporters, the voters got cold feet on primary and caucus day, they were too afraid of losing to Bush and went with "safe" Kerry.


The bottom line is, if you offend no one, you also excite no one. It is not sufficient for people not to hate you to get them to vote for you, they must like you to do that. They can't like you if they don't know what you stand for.

[Psephos]

100. I think we agree on the principle, but are using different wording

Look, I'm not worried about repug reaction. That's a foregone conclusion. I'm thinking about people in the middle. We only needed to pick off one out of twenty of voters who pulled the lever for * in the last election, and Kerry would be President right now. One in twenty.

The great Democrat mistake is an over-emphasis on offending no one. It's the driving force behind political correctness. Uggh. There are people who need to be offended if we're to carve out a strong position. On the other hand, offending the very people we hope to persuade to vote donk next time is a recipe for disaster. There are a lot of people here on DU and in the party organization who just don't get that.

So, to be clear, it's not what Dean says that's the issue, it's whether or not he uses political talent to say it. The message should be and is strong, it's the delivery that needs some forethought sometimes.

Peace.

[ieoeja]

98. Who thought it was racist?

The Republicans claimed they thought it was racist while the African-American community largely thought those comments were a humorous poke at the Republicans.

I suppose uber-PC types might have thought it was racist. But then the uber-PC types have been a drag on the Democratic party for a long time now. Them criticizing Dean for speaking the language of the people is like the pot calling the silverware black.

[madfloridian]

34. Because he teased Rush, we will lose elections?

I am sorry but that is a little disconnected to me.

[WildEyedLiberal]

37. I don't know that I think he's a loose cannon

I think he realizes everything he says, which by definition does not make him a loose cannon. I think the "take-no-bullshit" image is one he crafted himself, and that's the impression he wants to give. So "loose cannon," no. That said, his abrasiveness is off-putting to me. I think a lot of his appeal is that he simplifies issues vastly into a sort of black-or-white "we're for this" or "we're against this" certainty, which I don't think is ALWAYS the wise approach. You can be unequivocal in standing up for your beliefs without using "us vs. them" rhetoric, which Dean too often employs, in my opinion. I hate to say it, but it seems to be a page out of the Republican framing manual. Demonize your opponent. I know that appeals to a great many here - because, honestly, who doesn't want to hear a leading Dem say he hates Republicans? But is it actually productive in terms of advancing our cause? I don't think so. It placates the hardcore loyalists (e.g. DU), but I think it's offputting to a lot of people who don't think all Republicans are evil.

Basically, I think he's a polarizing figure. And sometimes, he says things so perfectly that every liberal applauds. But sometimes, he says things and I groan because of how badly he worded it. I suppose when Dean matches his fiery rhetoric with hard results for the Democratic party (e.g. 2006 domination), consider me sold. Until then, this jury is out.

[Carolab]

38. Dean fights fire with fire.

You got a problem with that, you need to learn how to FIGHT.

Last night, in a room FULL of left-leaning liberals, he got THREE standing ovations.

[WildEyedLiberal]

39. Read my post again

And maybe don't make the same mistake I criticized in the post - oversimplifying my words to suit your argument.

[Carolab]

41. I re-read it.

No change in my reaction or response.

[WildEyedLiberal]

45. Good for you

You're a fast reader. That took about 15 seconds. You keep on knee-jerk attacking anything that might be perceived as criticism about Dean, and I'll leave you to that. Got better things to do with my time. Cheers!

[lyonn]

40. My favorite "Dean Speak"

"We are no safer with Saddam captured." Now that was the absolute truth, yet the media got all huffy about him saying it when the whole of the media was having an orgasm over the capture. Reality wasn't about to interfere with this money making news, you know, looking at Saddam's nose hairs, and the spider hole. Actually I have not heard the media even mention Dean, worse yet don't you think?

[Crazy Guggenheim]

72. LMAO. Another one was when he commented on the terrorist ..

alerts. They said it was irresponsible! lol. There haven't been any alerts since the election!!

[madfloridian]

73. Ok, I included Ask Jeeves in the searches. Still nothing.

I am just not finding where he was even covered over this issue except by O'Reilly who was defending Rush with Dick Morris chiming in.

Was it on CNN or MSNBC and I missed it? It is not showing up in a search online.

Yep, flamebait.

On Edit, meant this to reply to the main post. But it is ok here.

[Jim Sagle]

42. Chickenshit bullshit.

[Cash]

44. Yes

But he's our loose cannon, damnit!

To me, the jury's still out on Dean and what he can do. He can energize certain elements within the party, but he a turn-off to others. We'll see next time how he holds up under pressure. He looses it again, put him out to pasture and bring someone else in. If not, he stays.

[ScreamingMeemie]

49. Yes. He's crazy and he keeps small children in his basement and eats

kitten fetuses for lunch, and I heard that he just skimmed 29 grand off the top of your 401K. :sarcasm:

[Gyre]

51. Yeah, so what?

Like the traditional dem machine has done alot in the past 5 years.

Gyre

[mattclearing]

52. Exactly how did it backfire?

I'm afraid I don't accept your premise.

He hates Republicans.

You know, there are some Republicans I like, but I hate what they stand for. Anyone who can vote for a Bush or a McCain when there's a Kerry or a Dean or and Edwards or a Clark, or hell, even a Sharpton, has some severe problems.

Same thing with mocking Rush.

We don't have to fight dirty. All we have to do is engage them in the only language they understand.

Republicans are generally so full of shit when it comes to the macho, no mercy facade.

They live in a world of illusion, where the bombs are all magical and only kill the bad guys, where deficit spending at the governmental level isn't the same thing as running up a credit card at high interest, and wars are something fun that are little different than a football game, with casualties and violence and heroism and glory.

All we have to do is pop that bubble.

Dean is effectively doing that, and God bless him for it.

[madfloridian]

60. Ok, help me out here. I just did googles and yahoos on this.

I did see a post at Kos about Dean's saying this, but it was from the O'Reilly show, some quotes.

I just did not see anything else on the news. Has it hit the news bigtime or what was it that worried you.

I hope it did not worry you that O'Reilly criticized Dean, that it was not your only gripe with it.

Carol was there, did not seem that alarmed. I see one right wing site the National Ledger picked it up.

Maybe tomorrow? I just don't see anything. I was listening to part of the speech on MPR, and it sounded pretty dullish to me. :shrug:

[Clarkie1]

62. No, but I think the opening post is. n/t

[AntiCoup2K4]

63. Limpdick quoted Dean out of context

I don't have the exact quote in front of me, but the statement was actually an acknowledgement that while the Republicans themselves and their actions are vile, you have to take very seriously the way they were able to mobilize between the 1992 & 1994 elections, and pull off the congressional coup. Dean was saying that we can, and should take a lesson from that and sepearte the methods from their motivations.

The way Mush and other media whores spun it had nothing whatsoever to do with what Dean actually said.

[LeftofU]

66. I don't see where just saying the truth.......

is being a loose cannon.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Crazy Guggenheim]

70. Dean's the loose cannon I would bring to a duel! LMAO!

[FredScuttle]

71. So let me get this straight

in the same week that xenophobic harridan Ann Coulter gets a multi-page spread in TIME magazine to utter such flowery bon mots as "the only thing liberals stand for is sucking brains out of full-term fetuses", Dean is the loose cannon?

Fucking flamebait is right...about as obvious as the pilonidal cyst on OxyContin's ass

[madfloridian]

78. Someone else who was there thought it was funny as well.

Dean was apparently talking of how Rush always twisted his remarks, and then he pushed Rush's buttons a little. Apparently the audience seemed to enjoy it.

I don't find things in the news about it, people enjoyed it...I am confused.

[mandyky]

79. Dean does not say any of this in "temper"

Hey, I'd have loved Kerry if he had have stuck with "crooks and liars" but he didn't.
The reason why I supported Dean in the primaries,and continue to,
is he speaks what is on his mind. Rush Limbaugh (and other like him) are a big part of the problem.

Just like the "scream", the media is out for Dean. I trust his motives over anything they say.

[CWebster]

80. IF speaking the truth in the present climate makes one

a loose cannon. Seems like he has been coached to hoist up the illusion lately. That's too bad, he raised all that money by speaking the truth, not by parroting the party line as a yes man to the Neo-con wish list.

[sendero]

81. Speaking their minds..

.. hasn't hurt the pukes much. Sure, most of the time they use proxies (Limbaugh, Hannity, O-Really, etc) to do the dirtiest of it, but they are not above making a sweeping, derisive and basically false statement.

Look how much it has hurt them. They control the executive and legislative branches. Go figure. They've turned the universal failures of resident Bush** into a positive. Magic.

The problem with Dems is that we need MORE DEANS, not fewer. We need to speak about them and our issues with the same level of passion and conviction that they speak about us and theirs.

I think some people need to wake up to the CULTURE IN AMERICA. Look at TV, movies, music lyrics. Pay attention to what is valued and what is scorned. Accept that, whether you like it or not, American culture and group-think has become coarse. You are either a take-action winner or you are a loser. The Reps have very successfully exploited this, and they have painted Dems as losers, in some cases for good reason.

Telling them to fuck off is a step in the right direction, not the wrong.

[Q]

85. Dean needs to 'lash out' even more...

...and not let up until the truth is known by everyone...Republicans and Democrats alike.

Democrats NOT lashing out (aka taking a stand) is the reason why we're in this mess....and why Bush now has near dictatorial powers.

[janx]

87. The media quote Dean out of context all the time. It's all they

can think of to do!

[WI_DEM]

91. You took Dean's statement on "hating Republicans" out of context

The full quote is "I hate Republicans and everything they stand for but I admire their discipline and their organization." It is clear he is speaking about the Republican party.

[MollyStark]

93. no

He is honest and it is a refreshing change.

[Wizard777]

94. Will we continue to allow the republicans to determine our fate?

That is basically what we are doing right now. We put too much credence into their claims. That's why George Bush TORTURES our allies and we're in big trouble. Because with some Republican twisting and spinning it so fast no one can get a good look at it. They have produced something they claim is a democrat insult to our allies. When we take that crap seriously. So does the public. If we are the good leaders that I have known us to be. That absolutely should happen. We say this is serious and the public takes it seriously. When we say, OMG we've screwed up! The public will also say, OMG you've screwed up! Lets look at this theorem in practicum.

John Kerry comes out in support of gays and republican gay activist Mary Cheney. Bush twists his support and claims it's an insult to Mary Cheney. We take that seriously and the public takes that seriously. We start acting like we've done something wrong and the public thinks we've done something wrong. WE'RE IN TROUBLE.

George Bush illegally invades a sovereign nation killing 100,000 civilians over WMD's that don't exist. That should have been political suicide. But It wasn't. WHY? According to the Republicans. They did nothing wrong. They wouldn't even allow themselves to entertain the thought that they had done something wrong. They said this was not a problem and it wasn't. They rebelled against any and all notions that they had made any errors. Now they have America supporting what amounts to an international crime spree. THEY ARE NOT IN TROUBLE.

What this all boils down to is we are ACTING AS IF in all the wrong ways. If we act as if we are in trouble we will be in trouble. If we continue to allow the Republicans to define our ills that we must correct. We will never be well. We will never control our party. We will never lead. We will only react to the latest republican grave diagnosis of our condition. We have a new leader in Howard Dean. We have a new beginning with Dean. "I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for" Id a good place to begin. We need to let Howard be the great leader he can be. I understand his approach and it speaks volumes to me. But I'm from the Democrat state of Maryland where we are so democratic. Even our Republican Governor ran as a ipso facto Democrat.

[goodhue]

95. No

Perhaps a cannon, but I don't think he is loose.

[madfloridian]

96. DU covers it for over 12 hours, O'Reilly covers it.

One right wing website covers it...but they think Coulter is wonderful..so go figure.

I find it odd it gets so much attention here and on O'Reilly.

Just a random thought.