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Analysis: The Democratic Party's 1994 Congressional Losses

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spaniard Donating Member (157 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 01:05 PM
Original message
Analysis: The Democratic Party's 1994 Congressional Losses
There's an old saying that goes, "if something is repeated often enough, it will become true." The DLC's role in Democratic losses from 1994 on is a prime example of that saying in action on Democratic Underground specifically and the neo-left in general.

I used to believe there were two schools of thought among the more progressive Democrats when it came to recent losses for the Democratic Party, the first being that it was the fault of the Democratic Leadership Council that the Democrats lost in the 1994 mid term election cycle, setting up further Democratic losses in subsequent elections. The other school of thought being the last three elections were "stolen" through a combination of voting machine rigging, voter intimidation, and other forms of fraud. However, It didn't take me long to realize that those putting forth these seemingly conflicting theories were often the same people. If the DLC were the focus of the discussion, the first theory would be espoused. If the discussion dealt primarily with the elections and not the DLC, then the second theory would be put forth. I tend to believe the latter theory myself. At least there is evidence to suggest voter irregularities in the last three election cycles.

But those aren't the only pieces of conventional yet conflicting wisdom among some Democrats that gnaw at me.

Another gem often offered up when discussing Democratic losses in recent election cycles is the Democratic party has moved too far to the right, courtesy of the DLC, and that when people have to pick between a Republican and what they perceive as “Republican-lite," they'll pick the Republican. People who believe this often quote Harry Truman, a great moderate Democrat, who said "When given a choice between a real Republican and an imitation, the people will choose the real thing every time." I believe this only if the people in question are Republicans! What is being implied here when this thought process is applied to Democrats is they will either vote for a Republican if they feel the Democratic choice isn't liberal enough or they won't vote at all. Either way, if we follow this line of thought to its logical conclusion, Democrats throw elections to Republicans if they aren't happy with the liberal "purity" of the candidate.

I'd like to see some polling data to confirm that. Gallup does polls for just about everything else. Surely there must be one that asks something like, "If you're a Democrat, why do you feel the Democrats lost in the most recent election cycle" - with choices that range from "they just didn't get their message out" to "they were too close to Republicans on some issues so I just went ahead and voted for the Republican."

Until I see that polling data, I'll continue to seriously doubt the claim that the DLC caused losses in any election cycle.

In my estimation, the blame being cast upon the DLC for Democratic losses is nothing short of the New Left frustrated that they cannot garner more power and influence in the Democratic Party and blaming moderates for that. I can understand and sympathize. I get frustrated that the Democratic Party can't regain the power it once had over the Republican Party and I am just as passionate in my quest as neoleftists. But their task is even more formidable because they feel they have to overcome two barriers - the DLC and moderate wing of the party and then the Republican Party. Although the DLC doesn't have the gravitas it once had, it is still a formidable force when it comes to fielding candidates and raising money. I can understand how this can infuriate people who don't subscribe to the DLC's point of view. And with the Democratic Party losing elections, the faction that seemingly leads the party is an easy target to blame.

But is it fair?

It could just as easily be surmised that if it weren't for the DLC's brand of centrism the Democrats would be losing more often and by larger margins. Polling data on issues indicate that the DLC's positions are often closer to that of mainstream America 's in most areas. Indeed, the purpose of the DLC's formation was to serve the national interests as opposed to more special interests. Granted, this may not always be the best way, but national elections are won on national issues. But the underlying question remains: Was the DLC responsible, fully or partially, for Democratic losses in 1994 and beyond as some on the left claim? Historians and Democratic strategists say no.

Ideological Bankruptcy… Or Ideological Drift?

An article in the Boston Globe took up the issue of Democratic losses a week before the last presidential election. When a party holds power for too long, Adrian Wooldridge, reporter for The Economist, said in the article, "it grows fat and happy, it also grows corrupt." The classic example, he pointed out, is the Democratic Party of the 1970s and `80s, which, spoiled by generations of congressional power, "became a party of insiders and deal makers without any sense of the principles they stood for and eventually collapsed" when they were turned out in 1994.

The more common explanation for the 1994 Republican Revolution, though, is that liberal Democratic ideals -- or at least the way they were presented -- no longer resonated with the majority of Americans. According to Ruy Teixeira, a fellow at the Center for American Progress and at the Century Foundation, the danger for the dominant party isn't ideological bankruptcy but ideological drift. "Certainly you can make the argument that, if a party's far enough away from the mainstream, if they don't lose they don't get enough impetus to correct their behavior."

Interesting that the point in the Democratic Party where the more liberal elements of the party held the most sway – the post McGovern era to the late 80s – is the time described by Wooldridge as our “fat, happy, and corrupt” period. Even more interesting is Teixeira, who has solid Democratic credentials, states the party had moved too far away from the mainstream during the period of massive electoral losses for McGovern, Carter, Mondale, and Dukakis.

Court and Country in American Politics: The Democratic Party and the 1994 Election

Philip A. Klinkner, author of "Court and Country in American Politics: The Democratic Party and the 1994 Election," presents a very interesting and expansive theory concerning the major Democratic losses in 1994 that Wooldridge and Teixeira only touched on. Klinkner explains the circumstances surrounding the 1992 election provided ample evidence of a radically changed political environment. Several observers have commented on the growing volatility of the electorate since the late 1980s (Greider 1992; Phillips 1990, 1993, and 1994; Germond and Witcover 1993; Greenberg 1995). By most accounts, this phenomenon reached a new high in 1992, as voters expressed growing disgust with the federal government, elected officials, special interests, and politics in general, and a greater willingness to support outsider candidacies, even those of such diverse figures as Jerry Brown, Pat Buchanan, and Ross Perot.

The author continues by writing that current American politics is best understood in light of the "Court versus Country" dynamic that has been a recurring theme in Anglo-American politics over the last 300 years. The label was first used to describe the intense political conflict in English politics from the Revolution of 1688 until the mid-eighteenth century. Historians have also used the Court versus Country framework to describe the politics of America ’s early national period, roughly from the Articles of Confederation to the election of Thomas Jefferson.

Politics in both of these periods revolved around the scope and legitimacy of governmental power. On the one side was a Court persuasion, which firmly believed in the necessity of a powerful central government to ensure prosperity, domestic order, and international prestige. "Court apologists were intensely statist . . . . They tried to endow the government with the resources and vigor necessary to command great respect abroad and maintain order at home" (Murrin 1980: 379) To achieve these ends, Court proponents advocated increased taxation, expanded government expenditures, a funded public debt, government guidance of nation’s economic and financial systems, and a bureaucracy large and powerful enough to ensure the attainment of the government’s objectives.

In opposition stood the Country advocates who saw the Court proponents as a corrupt elite, antagonistic to the economic interests and cultural values of the nation and striving to increase the power of government to serve their own evil ends. Moreover, Country supporters believed that the Court faction, through its links with financial elites and political manipulations, had managed to entrench itself into the office, upsetting the political system’s natural balance. Once free from the usual checks and balances, they claimed that the Court elite would then set out to further aggrandize power and debase the natural rights and liberties of the people. In response, the Country supporters advocated limited government, reduction of government debt and spending, reduction and/or reform of taxes, and structural and procedural reforms of the political system as a means of restoring the proper control and accountability to the government.

These Court versus Country themes are readily discernible in contemporary American politics. To a large extent, with their emphasis on a powerful federal government to provide direction and leadership on a range of issues, from macroeconomic management to civil rights to environmental protection, modern liberal ideology reflects the Court tradition of earlier times. In addition, the liberals’ tools of increased expenditures and government debt were also used by the English Court supporters and their American descendants, the Federalists.

The Country attitude, with its "plain distrust of government as such, and a considerable sense of apprehension at its ever spreading tentacles" (Holmes 1987: 121), is readily apparent in current popular attitudes. Like their Country predecessors, current critics of the political system oppose excessive government, as reflected in debt, high taxes, increased spending, and extensive regulation. In particular, they share the traditional Country concern for governmental corruption, especially the ways in which elected officials, bureaucrats, and special interests combine to create an entrenched governmental elite, unresponsive and unaccountable to the public interest. In the words of Ross Perot, "The British aristocracy we drove out in our Revolution has been replaced by our own version: a political nobility that is immune to the people’s will. They have created through our campaign and lobbying laws a series of incentives that corrupt the intent of the Constitution" (Perot 1992: 24). Criticisms of entrenched congressional incumbents echo the attacks of English Country advocates on the corrupt placemen and courtiers whom they believed were destroying the House of Commons. In fact, proposals for congressional term limits closely resemble the Place bills advocated by English Country members for "purging the House of Commons from the dead weight of court officers and dependents" (Holmes 1987: 130). ...

The rise of these Country attitudes in contemporary America seems to have resulted from a number of forces, one of which was the civil rights movement of the 1960s.. and many began to question the scope and legitimacy of the governmental power on a range of issues from taxes to welfare to the criminal justice system (Edsall and Edsall 1991; Dionne 1991; Horowitz 1986).

By the early 1990s, Country sentiments were evident among much of the public. In 1964, over 70 percent of the public said that they could trust Washington to do what was right most or all of the time; by early 1994, only 19 percent expressed similar confidence (Phillips 1994: 7). In 1964, when asked, "Would you say the government is run by a few big interests looking out for themselves or that it is run for the benefit of all people," nearly 40 percent more people agreed with the latter than with the former. In 1992 that sentiment had reversed itself, with 60 percent more people believing that the government was run for the benefit of special interests than those who believed it was run for the benefit of all. (Stanley and Niemi: 169).

Again, this period was largely dominated by the Democratic Party and the counterculture that was associated with it.

The emergence of Court and Country politics spelled trouble for the Democrats. As the party of governmental activism, the Democrats were bound to suffer from the rise of popular cynicism toward government. At the same time that Bill Clinton was winning the White House, voters preferred having "government cost less in taxes but provide fewer services" to having "government provide more services but cost more in taxes" by 54 to 38 percent (Milkis and Nelson 1994: 395). http://academics.hamilton.edu/government/pklinkne/94.htm

This was no better exemplified than by Bill Clinton's healthcare plan, which support for collapsed, which set back his presidency and figured in the Democrats' loss of control of the House of Representatives in 1994. They've never recovered from the loss.

Soon after Clinton took office in 1993, he promised health insurance for millions of Americans who had no coverage. But before long, the plan was a shambles, derailed by concerns that it would cost too much and create a huge new bureaucracy. "People have not gotten over 1994 yet," Karen Pollitz, the project director for the Georgetown University Health Policy Institute, said of the Clinton plan. "President Clinton tried to fix everything at once. It was not well received. And not only that -- the Democrats got turned out at the next election." http://www.freep.com/news/politics/issue27_20040127.htm

So, technically speaking, Clinton's attempt to enact a left-liberal policy partially contributed to the Democrat's downfall in 1994. A two decade long move to the left by the Democratic party - capped off by the failed healthcare plan - brought us down. NOT movement to the right.

Who Gets The Blame For Prior Losses?

Of course, Democrats have suffered losses before - years before the DLC was even in existence. Surprisingly In 1938, Republicans gained 81 House seats running against Franklin Roosevelt. Again In the mid-term election of 1942, the Democrats lost 44 seats in the House of Representatives.

George McGovern, Jimmy Carter, and Walter Mondale suffered huge defeats in their 1972, 1980, and 1984 presidential runs.

The Republicans won control of the Senate in 1981 and retained it for six years - until the midterm elections of 1986 when the Democratic party picked up 5 seats in the House and eight seats in the Senate to regain power. Interestingly, this was the first election cycle after the DLC was formed in 1985. The Democratic Senators elected and who gave the Senate back to the Democrats included moderates Barbara Mikulski (a participant in the DLC's National Service Tour), Harry Reid (who recently said Democrats have to "swallow their pride" and move toward the middle), Conservative Democrat Richard Shelby, DLCer Bob Graham, DLCer Kent Conrad, and DLCer Tom Daschle.

Just as the Democratic Party was voted out of power in 1994, so is it inevitable that the same fate will befall the Republican Party. And if the current public mood is indicative of how they will vote, the GOP will find themselves out of power sooner than later for the same reason the Democrats lost power in 1994 – falling too far away from the mainstream of American thought and opinion. The difference is the GOP will have moved to the right of the American mainstream to cause the backlash. From the late 60s to the late 80s-early 90s, the Democrats moved left.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. excellent analysis
Edited on Sat Apr-16-05 01:18 PM by wyldwolf
Good to see all this info in one place. I use it in my signature.

Be careful, though, I've used the Ruy Teixeira quote before and the only opposition anyone could give was that he is a "rightwing" source. :rofl:
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spaniard Donating Member (157 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. rightwing? He's at the Center for American Progress - very liberal
Why would anyone think he was rightwing???
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. because he said something that blew their theory
I suppose... :shrug:
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
4. "Given the choice between a …" Republican and a Democrat who openly
Edited on Sat Apr-16-05 01:39 PM by w4rma
supports unpopular Republican policy, people will vote for the real Republican all the time.

"Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for the real Republican all the time"

It means that folks do not, in general, support Republican policy. Republican policy is very unpopular. So when a Democrat tries to run on enacting that unpopular policy, the Democrat will lose. But when a Republican runs for office, the folks who want that policy enacted assume that the Republican will enact the policy and the Republican can spend time convincing the folks who will be harmed by the policy that there is nothing to be worried about.

As to vote fraud before 2000, there may have been some vote fraud before 2000 against Democrats, but considering that these black box voting machines didn't come into play until 2000, I don't think vote fraud was the problem *before 2000*. Although I do think that Shrub probably beat Ann Richards via some vote fraud.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. well, actually, I don't think thats what Truman meant when he said it
Edited on Sat Apr-16-05 01:41 PM by wyldwolf
...though I do like your interpretation.

That quote has been used so often on DU as a way of saying people won't support someone because he/she is a "republican lite."

But that leads us to the question, "what constitutes a Republican policy?"

... if we lay out a few and then show that people supported it, do we then concede it isn't a republican policy or muddy the waters further by assuming the people have been fooled or convinced by more colorful framing?
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Republican policy is *any* policy that benefits the ultra-wealthy at the
expense of the middle-upper, lower-upper, middle and/or lower classes.

This includes regressive taxation, laws mandating more control over regular people and policy encouraging corporate mergers and overseas outsourcing.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. ok, that's fair
so is gun control a Republican policy? It does mandate more control over regular people.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Yes, imho.
Edited on Sat Apr-16-05 02:14 PM by w4rma
Gun control enables more control over regular people. It really ticks off rural Democrats who want to keep guns to protect themselves when they live inside a big yard, far away from neighbors or the police station (which probably isn't well staffed - unlike their urban counterparts).

Also notice that both gun control and "free" trade were priorities of the Clinton administration leading up to the 1994 elections.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. hmmm... good answer
Unusual for DU and totally unexpected, but GOOD answer!
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Thank you. (nt)
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
7. There are A LOT of factors that contributed to the losses in 1994
The DLC tends to consist of center-leaning Democrats but on that list you made of those elected in 1986, for example, two fairly progressive senators stand out in my mind. Bob Graham being the first and I guess to a slightly lesser extent, Kent Conrad (but when you factor in that he's from North Dakota, he gets a lot of extra points).

Some people will argue that this was the period when the TV media began going downhill giving the GOP a big edge. In many senses this is the period where this started but we all know it's not NEARLY as bad as it is today. Ted Turner (I believe) was still running CNN and FAUX news hadn't been created yet. Then again the internet wasn't very popular back then and so TV was really the only game in town.

Clinton's lack of a popular mandate and a rough first two years in office certainly didn't help. Some of the Democrats in congress were almost as hostile to his agenda as the Republicans. The healthcare battle was a prime example of this. It's not necesarilly that he didn't push for universal single-payer healthcare (although I wish that he had listened to Wellstone and done that), it's that he continued to compromise and compromise and compromise until finally the bill was filled with so much crap that it was too costly and too hard to understand.

How Gingrich got his people to the polls in 1994 is an interesting question. Clinton's lack of progress in his first two years was definately part of it, but in the end I think it was because Gingrich was framing the debate, not the Democrats. And you know what the debate is always about when the GOP frames it: Guns, God, and Gays.

I consider myself a progressive but that doesn't mean that I automatically condemn the DLC. I would rather have more progressive people running the party than Lieberman, Bayh, and Hillary Clinton but I don't deny that the DLC has pulled out some key victories and that a few of their members are genuine progressives. On the other hand, we do need to watch out for actual DINOs. The conservative Senator Richard Shelby that you mentioned above opposed almost all of Clinton's agenda in his first two years then switched parties after 1994. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a Democratic Senator from Alabama even if it is a fairly conservative one, but Shelby was pretty much actively working against our party like Zell Miller was.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. if only everyone could be as insightful as you!
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Part of it is that I intend to go into politics
I'm idealistic in my beliefs about what kind of policies this country should enact but I pay attention to political realities as well. And nobody is really perfect. Even Wellstone went against his beliefs and voted for somethng that was wrong, DOMA. He knew that it wasn't anything more than a symbolic vote designed to politically ruin people like him. But when it came time to fight for something that actually effected peoples' lives (welfare reform) he put his re-election on the line and did what was right. I'll actively support the Dem senator who is right 99% of the time or hell even one who is right 60% of the time over the Republian who is wrong 99.9-100% of the time.

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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. well, take it from someone already in politics
You will need that insight into political realities to survive.

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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. You're already in politics? What/where?
Are you an elected official? Federal, state or local?

:kick:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. hmmm... Mrs. "1950" Posts
Calling someone out on post count is a rules violation.

I mean, if they meant anything, you'd have far less credibility than me - Mr. 9588 Posts.
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Guess if you make a small, in-jest violation the good mods will let you
Edited on Sat Apr-16-05 03:32 PM by Cats Against Frist
fix it. Thanks!

:hi:

It is absurd to claim that the Republicans are the descendents of the Anti-Federalists. And, it surprises me that a democrat would say such a thing, because usually it's a partisan claim, because everyone wants to be associated with the brilliance that is Thomas Jefferson.

Further, it seems odd to me that anyone who isn't a GOP party loyalist would buy into the idea that the "liberal left" of the Democratic Party is any more statist than the amalgam of corpo-fascist, neoconservative intellectuals and theocrats that are running the "batshit" party. If you wish, I can post a 21-point manifesto that shows that the GOP is just "big brother's other brother."

Seems there is a cognative dissonance in Republican constituencies -- apparently they feel like they shouldn't put any trust in the institution of government -- but they should put trust in the institutions of religion and corporation, which, historically, have just as spurious (and bloody) track records as the authoritarian left, or the "socialist state." Second, they feel that the GOP actually represents their interests, when, in fact, they don't, and wish, just as much as the most Mao-eyed socialist, to concentrate power and engineer a "ideal" society. The only difference is whose interest is served.

In my opinion, the reason that it's okay to trust Jimmy Swaggart and the Company Store, as opposed to "Big Government," is because "big goverment" is associate with the welfare state. In my humble opinion, it all comes down to racism. Racism and cognitive dissonance.

So what is a "moderate" Democrat, then? Someone who "crosses over" to be "bipartisan" with a crop of lock-step right-wing authoritarians, who are represented by public figures whose "philosophies" of government are a Risperdal away from being a psychological condition of splitting, projecting, scapegoating and rationalization, latent racism, self-hatred and an intense denial of lineage to the King and Church of pre-Enlightenment Europe?

Nice. Tell you what. How 'bout the DLC track down the former members of the 1980s hair bands and vote the way that CC Deville and Nikki Six want them to vote. It would make as much philosophical sense as being a fascist's breath away from completely being enveloped by the most right-wing, statist, authoritarian government that this country has ever seen.

The "DLC" is simply another way to say, "we suck up to corporations, because we're willing to accept that life begins and ends at the corporate trough and maybe we'll squeak out some medicaid, if we play nice, but otherwise, any other over-arching philsophy of egalitarianism, personal responsibility, civil rights, environmental health, democratic stewardship, checks and balances, or open government are off the table, as long as Bo Dean is sidetracked by watching the little cars-ies go "loopy loop" around the track, and buying his Chicken McNuggets, like a good little piece of human capital."

And "DLC" also has a little problem with its own love of the military, hi-tech weaponry and jingo-jango, and participates, every bit as much as the GOP in the collective denial of U.S. exploitation of developing nations -- and those nasty little CIA coups.

That's why they voted to invade a sovereign nation that didn't attack us. That's why they continue to vote to fund it. That's why they didn't have any credibility to stand up when it all went bad -- because they just played puppy dog to "Junior Codpiece and the Jewish Intellectual Orchestra" when they decided to raid Social Security to pay for a tax cut and war at the same time. And, oddly enough, I remember -- wait, who was that -- a certain rosy-nosed Kennedy -- one of those "goddamn extremists" from the rogue colony of MASSACHUSSETS that was the most vocal in leading the charge against this GOD DAMN CLUSTERFUCK than anyone with a functional brainstem could see was a "bad idea."

So, at any rate, all your post was was a dressed-up version of the same old attack on the "loony left," with more than a little GOP propaganda overtones included -- including the FALSE assertion that the GOP are the inheritors of the Bill of Rights, the Enlightenment, the FRENCH FUCKING INTELLECTUALS AND ROUSSEAU'S "JUST SOCIETY" FOR GOD'S SAKE.

If you want to support the DLC, FINE. There's no reason to badmouth other people who have principles that fall outside the money clip.

The DLC is a member of the "court" MORE than either the GOP or the "loony left," because not only are they beholden to the corpo-fascist element of statism, but also the welfare state element of statism. They're getting DP from big fed like Jasmine in a hot tub.

The REASON that the Dems lost in 1994 was because they drew up a "Contract," which PREDOMINATELY attacked "the welfare state," which made Bo Dean look up from his sausages long enough to remember that the only thing he hates more than a whole race without a fatal crash is BLACK PEOPLE. And the media, which loves a good medicine show, reported on it enough to make it a "fad." The GOP realized that anger, rhetoric, "branding" and railing against a government they had every intention to usurp and use to further their own social engineering, was their ticket to the prom.

And, in MY own humble assessment, it's the state socialists AND the DLC that are wearing the "good doggie" diamond collar and following Paris and Nikki into abovementioned prom.

I'm a liberal libertarian, which gives me the gift of perspective -- and I agree that the mid-left, government-working, identity-politicking, welfare-state socialists scare Mr. Mammon Jesus SUV. But Republican LYING, scapegoating and no apparent shame in using logical fallacy to convolute an argument are to blame MUCH more than Bunny-Loving Teacher's Union Peggy, for her compassion for trees and the "melting pot."

And the DLC's willingness to overlook simple Peggy and her Dreamcatcher, on one shoulder, to listen to the giant megaloconglomerato corporation, on the other, probably is neither wise, nor especially true to the people who do much of the grass roots work, and head out to vote for the candidate who sucked enough widget to get the nomination.

It's a sad state of affairs -- and I really AM the "loony" left -- and I think you should leave us the fuck out of it.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. The way we were taught, they descended from the Federalists
In the sense that the federalists wanted a government controlled by the elites, this is true. The real problem in tracing either the modern day Democrats or Republicans back to the Federalists and Republicans, is that there were no big corporations back in the 18th and early 19th century.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I'm not sure where the contention is
Edited on Sat Apr-16-05 04:55 PM by wyldwolf
The piece said,

To a large extent, with their emphasis on a powerful federal government to provide direction and leadership on a range of issues, from macroeconomic management to civil rights to environmental protection, modern liberal ideology reflects the Court tradition of earlier times. In addition, the liberals’ tools of increased expenditures and government debt were also used by the English Court supporters and their American descendants, the Federalists.


I'm missing the part referred to by Cats Against Frist. She said "it's absurd to claim that the Republicans are the descendents of the Anti-Federalists."

What I see is the Democratic party from the late 30s until they were turned out in 1994 WAS the party of big government and thus reflected the court, or federalist, tradition.

By the same token during that period, the Republicans were always identified as the party of less government (states rights.)

If I'm missing what was said the piece stated, or even the implication, please point it out to me.

The major parties have often switched positions with successive generations. The Republicans were the party of anti-slavery. The Dems the party of slavery.

It's no surprise that the Democrats became the party of big government after holding power so long. In that respect, they resembled the federalists.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-17-05 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. The key difference is that there were no corporations in the 1790's
The federalists were the party of big government and the anti-federalists, later the Democratic-Republicans were the party of small government. But back in 1790's, big government was something that the elites wanted, not the average joe. For example, the elites wanted a national bank and a stable currency, the average guy wanted to be able to take out a cheap loan. More importantly perhaps, Alexander Hamilton didn't really hide the fact that he wanted a government run by the elites and not by the common people. Jefferson and Madison and later Andrew Jackson wanted a government controlled by the common people and at the time that consisted of a smaller federal government.

The shift came (in my opinion) in the election of 1896 (Bryan vs McKinley). By then, corporations had become prominent in American society. What they soon discovered is that the only way to keep corporations from screwing them over is to have an activist government that will regulate them. So Bryan, who was represented the same people that Thomas Jefferson and Andrew Jackson represented, pushed for a bigger role for the government. McKinley, who represented the people that Alexander Hamilton represented pushed for a smaller government that would allow corporations to do whatever the hell they wanted.

I believe that every democratic president of the 20th century, as well as Teddy Roosevelt and William Howard Taft all followed in the populist but "big government" populist tradition started by Bryan.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-17-05 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. the reference wasn't about corporations
It was about a strong federal government, which the Federalists were for, and limited government - the anti-federalists.

Like it or not, the Dems from the time of Roosevelt to roughly 1994 was the party of strong federal government - resembling the Federalists in that way. The GOP was the opposite.

I believe by concentrating on corporations, you're reading things into the piece that aren't there. The comparison was to big government - not corporations.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Great post, Cats!
The OP obviously hasn't been around log enough to have seen the research on the beginnings of the right wing takeover.

Everyone should read the Powell Manifesto, and read up on WHO funds the DLC...they are REPUBLICANS! The republicans have INFILTRATED the Dem party for years and years.

The Dem politicians not only LET it happen, they participated for the money.

There is no compromise. We are in a fight for our Democracy. Phuck the history of who did what to whom for how long costing how much, and which signer of the Dec of Independence might have said what.

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050103&s=sirota

http://www.coosnet.com/jzkingjz/revs2001.html#HDLC

http://reclaimdemocracy.org/corporate_accountability/powell_memo_lewis.html

:kick:
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. It was passionate, but...
...how much did it speak to the original post? It seemed more like an angry response that didn't really address the points.

One part in particular:

Cats Against Frist said the piece claims Republicans are the descendents of the Anti-Federalists.

The piece said,

To a large extent, with their emphasis on a powerful federal government to provide direction and leadership on a range of issues, from macroeconomic management to civil rights to environmental protection, modern liberal ideology reflects the Court tradition of earlier times. In addition, the liberals’ tools of increased expenditures and government debt were also used by the English Court supporters and their American descendants, the Federalists.


I'm missing the part referred to by Cats Against Frist.
What I see is the Democratic party from the late 30s until they were turned out in 1994 WAS the party of big government and thus reflected the court, or federalist, tradition.

By the same token during that period, the Republicans were always identified as the party of less government (states rights.)

If I'm missing what was said the piece stated, or even the implication, please point it out to me.

The major parties have often switched positions with successive generations. The Republicans were the party of anti-slavery. The Dems the party of slavery.

It's no surprise that the Democrats became the party of big government after holding power so long. In that respect, they resembled the federalists.

Here are a few response to the links you gave:

http://yglesias.typepad.com/matthew/2004/12/debunking_d...
http://www.gregsopinion.com/archives/005332.html

Two different writers dismantle Sirota's piece. Hey, I'm a fan of David Sirota but he was taken to school by them.
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Writer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-05 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
23. Bravo!
This kind of analysis is long overdue. I do hope that others will cast aside blind belief and place our current situation in context.

Writer.
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agincourt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-17-05 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
26. I don't think a move to the left will necessarily win more elections,
but I also believe a move to the right won't necessarily win more either. Conservatism is marketed much better then liberalism or centrism. Likewise we have a population more vulnerable to propaganda, because they work long hours and can't do much intellectual research. When I went from working 75 hour weeks to 50 hour weeks I became much more politically aware. Political positioning can help, but until we find a way to get the RW noise machines grip off the US mind, we are only repositioning to be destroyed in place.
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-17-05 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
27. Interesting...
...I didn't know that DU had a Centrist Knitting Club.

There is absolutely no sense going back before 2000 to understand TODAY'S politics. Everything changed after a stolen election AND when both parties used 9-11 to advance their careers and agendas.

What's important NOW is that America and the Democratic party is in trouble and too many Democrats seem to think that enabling and appeasement is the way to get back into power.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-17-05 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
28. We lost for lots of reasons
First, and likely foremost, we were considered corrupt. The area in which I lived (Northeast Ohio) can serve as a model here. In the 1990 election (the last before the 1990 redistricting) NE Ohio was represented by several Democrats and one Republican. The Dems were Feighan, Eckart, Sawyer, Trafficant, Stokes, Brown and Ockar. The Republican was Regula. After that redistricting we lost Feighan due to his seat being combined with Eckart's. We also lost Eckart due to retirment and replacement with Fingerhut. Feighan didn't run due to having bounced a bunch of checks at the House bank. Ockar lost her seat to a Republican who used the fact she was indicted against her (House bank and House Post Office). We now had 2 Republicans and 5 Democrats. In 1994, Fingerhut lost to LaTourette due to his inability to pass campaign reform and his bad handling of the vote for Clinton's tax increase. LaTourette also was a household name due to prosecuting a Morman serial killer. We now had 3 Republicans and 4 Democrats. This was a net loss of three seats in 4 years. It had nothing to do with moving left (in point of fact Stokes, by far the most left of the bunch, retired in 1998 with his popularity fully in tact). This, writ large, is what happened to Dems.
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