"We are not the pro-abortion party"

[Freddie Stubbs]

It's about time someone in a leadership position in the party has said this.

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/11271150.htm

[Virginian]

1. How about a small clip so we don't have to register?

Please.

[Kipepeo]

13. clip

Dean, whose defeat in the 2004 Democratic presidential primaries was attributed to the belief that he was too liberal to defeat President Bush in the general election, appeared to be trying to reassure the party activists gathered at Bluezette that he had learned his lesson. He called on them to use less confrontational language with those socially conservative Democrats who deserted the party last year to vote for Bush.

"We are not the pro-abortion party," Dean said, repeating the old Bill Clinton line that "abortion should be safe, legal and rare."

"We need to organize," Dean said. "We can't run a campaign for president in 20 states and be a national party."

The party chairman said Democrats need "message discipline." He said they should for the present forgo the satisfaction of attacking House Majority Leader Tom DeLay's ethics problems or the controversy over what he called the Bush administration's government-paid "propaganda" and focus on attacking Bush's plan to create private Social Security accounts.

Polls show the proposal is unpopular.

"We're on a roll with Social Security," Dean said. "We need to focus on this, and we need to keep the focus on it."

[Freddie Stubbs]

32. It's easy to get passwords at http://bugmenot.com/

http://bugmenot.com/

[Deep13]

2. It's true.

Most people who are pro-choice are so because they think it is none of the government's business or because they think individuals are in a better position to decide than the state is. Nevertheless, most of them are personally against abortion, at least in late term.

[Nikki Stone 1]

7. This is good. Finally someone is trying to reframe the right's language &

get more accurate about what pro-choice really is. Most people do not like late term abortions unless there is some risk to the mother or unless the fetus is already not viable. Most abortions occur in the first trimester.

For me, pro-choice means exactly what was stated in the article: that the government should stay out of this decision. With better birth control--and decent funding for education and birth control supplies--we can keep abortions to a minimum.

[me b zola]

34. ditto everything you said, plus

Instead of trying to expand our voting block by opening up our ideology to "pro-life", we have a lot of reason to believe that government out of our personal lives could win many votes. The polls were overwhelming against government intervention into personal matters that just occurred in Congress. Many civil libertarians who don't like big-brother snooping into our lives (patriot act, etc.) are fed up with the neocons.

Stay true to traditional Dem values, but articulate them well. The key to securing more voters is not moving to the right, but in articulating our values so that people who have been voting repub will understand that TRADITIONAL DEMOCRATIC VALUES ARE AMERICAN VALUES.

[tubbacheez]

3. Well, maybe only in the sense that abortions should be performed by pros.

The amateur-abortion party scares me.

[Deep13]

4. 'nuff said!

:toast:

[adwon]

6. I shouldn't laugh

but I just can't help it.

:yourock:

[bullimiami]

5. nobody is "PRO" abortion

its a rights issue.

we are pro "womens rights" period

conservative fundamentalist mentality is pro male domination. man is the master of all he surveys, his land his cattle and his woman. and they as the alpha males are in charge of everyone.

[saracat]

15. I am "pro-abortion" I remember when women fought and died for this right.

I am "pro-abortion the way I am a LIBERAL, not a "progressive" I am sick to death of our trying to disguise our issue semantically to appease the right. People are trying to take abortion OUT of the women's rights issue because it is offensive to some people. Tough. Women's voting and Civil Rights for Blacks were offensive to some people as well. If people weren't clear what they stood for, we wouldn't have those rights today. Did the Civil Rights marchers pander to the Klan?
We are on the same page but I won't water down my rhetoric!

[JerseygirlCT]

16. Well I'm not

I'm "pro-abortion rights" if you like. But I'm not pushing either choice on someone else. It's not my decision to make for anyone but myself.

[saracat]

21. I am not pushing abortion on anyone. I just

abortion to remain legal. Abortion rights are integral to a woman's self determination. We don't have any rights if we don't have the right to control our bodies. I still like the phrase "biology isn't destiny' ! I think our emphasis should be on the fact this is a "private" decision !

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

28. It might be semantics, but it's a very important semantic game.

Pro-abortion sounds like you want to run out and have as many abortions as possible. No one advocates that. We are pro-women. We are pro-choice. We stand for creating living conditions such that women won't be pushed into a decision to have a legal and protected abortion.

It may not seem like a big deal, but it really is. There are a lot of people who just don't get it, and they won't ask you questions to figure it out. So if they hear "pro-abortion", unfortunately, that's what people really do think.

[JerseygirlCT]

31. Nothing I disagree with there

I just will not call myself "pro-abortion". I'm not pro-abortion anymore than I'm pro any other medical procedure. For me, it's an unfortunate thing, but sometimes necessary. What I'm sure of is that my choice is mine, and every other woman's choice ought to be hers, as well.

I do think we do much, much better with this topic when we focus the conversation on the freedom to make private medical decisions without government interference. As I said above, arguing about when life begins is a loser everytime. Everyone has their opinion, they're all valid, really, since they're opinions.

To me, because it's a difficult decision, the only person qualified to make it is the woman involved.

[CWebster]

26. That was the point of "PRO-CHOICE"

But that isn't good enough for politicians without core convictions and just looking to sneak the votes away from the successful efforts of the Right to frame the issue.

Women do not stop having abortions just because access to safe health care for women is denied - starting with rhetoric like they should be "rare". There is an underlying judgement in that statement. But women will still have abortions, they will just go to butchers and quacks--except for the wealthy, of course, who are exempt from the growing restrictions on the majority of women. Then politicians can discuss adolescent girls who give birth in restrooms or commit suicide, or are trapped in poverty with children they can barely support, only again to hear about the dispiccable welfare mother who is such a burden to the rest of society.

And while "boys are just being boys" and sowing their wild seed, girls are blamed for trapping the boy should she become pregnant, or suffer the humiliation of parental and social disgrace of "getting knocked up" and now, too, be condemned for making a morally reprehensible choice.

Do you see how men are controlling the show to keep women in chains? And yet, some mindlessly parrot this convenient triangulation of attitudes for opportunist politicians looking to gain personal ground at the expense of the integrity of the issue.

[LittleClarkie]

38. I think they mean that we are not pro-abortion

in the way that we don't think they're wondrous things and everone should have one. We don't have punch cards where you get your tenth abortion free. We aren't standing outside the clinics in cheerleader outfits going "Yea abortion."

Going and getting one because you need one is different from saying you just love the damn things. I guess that's the point people are trying to get across. It is good to have that choice, but we're not promoting abortion necessarily over other choices. Just maintaining that choice amongst all the others.

Do you know what I mean? The right likes to emphasize abortion, where we need to emphasize the real issue, choice.

I think it's more of a reframe than a sugarcoat.

[mtnsnake]

8. If only the Democratic Party had used these 6 simple words before

"We are not the pro-abortion party"

That's been the biggest problem with our Democratic spokesmen...they rarely uses the right rhetoric to explain or defend themselves. We need more of this and it shouldn't be so hard. Christ sakes, it's just a simple communication skill.

[SharonAnn]

9. Careful, to the listener that might tie "pro-abortion" with

"Democratic Party". Just repeating what the other side says with a "No" or "Not" in front of it can reinforce their phrasing.

I prefer Howard's Dean method of talking about women's health care. it completely negates their "meme" and inserts a completely new frame. It's "Women's Health Care" and "Women should be able to get the health care they need".

[Kipepeo]

12. Agreed

I don't think saying "We are NOT " is as effective as saying what we are in our OWN language and saying what THEY are in OUR language.

Also, the quote in the OP IS from Dean. But true, I like it when he frames the issue around women's health care, which is where it should be.

[ProgressiveDepot.com]

10. I always wonder why you never hear "anti-choice" being used

by those on the pro-choice side. Because the bottom line is that anti-choicers are advocating forcing a woman to have a baby, and most of them are advocating forcing her to have it even if she has been raped or her health is in danger.

[JerseygirlCT]

18. Yup we have to aggressively re-frame this debate

from "pro-life" to "keeping government out of private medical decisions"

It's the *choice* part of the equation we have to emphasize and stop arguing about the *life* side. Arguing about that is silly -- and gets us nowhere at all -- since everyone has their own definition. It's obviously subjective, given the propensity for the "pro-lifers" to support things like the DP, war, cuts in government social programs, etc.

[Deep13]

23. They don't see it that way.

In there minds it is a choice between allowing a "baby" or live or killing it. Naturally, no one advocates a pro-choice position on murdering actual people and that is how these right-to-lifers have been trained to see it.

The really problem is not getting people to agree with us, because a majority already do, but getting them to vote on that issue. Preserving a right that the voter would rather people not actually use is not as compelling of an argument as stopping murder. Pro-choice voters seem to vote on candidates as wholes while right-to-lifers vote only on the abortion issue. Frankly, I don't know what the solution is.

[beyurslf]

11. It is nice someone said it, but it would be nice if it is was someone

who hadn't already been elected president twice.

[Kipepeo]

14. Dean said it. n/t

[beyurslf]

17. I knew I always have liked him. Good to hear.

[JHBowden]

19. Yes we are.

Most Democrats, including myself, are pro-choice, which means support for abortion. Since one can't disguise this by saying "I don't like abortion but I support it," it is better to support the policy in a straightforward manner. Otherwise it sounds like we are ashamed of the position.

[Clark Bayh 2008]

20. You can be both pro-life & pro-choice... virtually everyone is...

I prefer women not to have abortions after the first trimester or ever. But it's not an absolute.

I also can't substitute my judgment for a woman's since as a man I'll never be in her position. So all men can be pro-life & pro-choice.

I support a woman's right to have an abortion. I don't like it. It's not a pleasant or happy decision. But it's like free speech & the Nazis marching.

We are pro-life, pro-choice democrats. Otherwise known as Libertarian Dems. We respect the rights of others who reasonably disagree with us to express their opinions.

Remember, Bush emphatically stated that he will use NO litmus test on abortion for his sc pix.

[Deep13]

24. "...he will use NO litmus test ..."

Yes, he lied most bravely! Seriously, though, he probably will not pick a so-called pro-life judge unless it is to fill a seat left by another right-to-lifer. The Rs need this issue to stay in power.

[charlie]

25. We've been through this "no litmus test" crap before

with his Dad. So he floated up Clarence Thomas, who inanely insisted he hadn't given due consideration and therefore had no opinion on the matter of abortion.

Dubya's picks will be anti-abortion. Short of threatening their toes with a ball peen, you'll never get them to admit it, though.

[CitySky]

36. Amen

I'm with you here. It's not "semantics," IMO. I am emphatically NOT "pro-abortion." In fact I would say I'm pretty much "anti-abortion," personally.

It's just that in the sphere of how much government I want intruding into people's most personal and agonizing decisions, I'm more "pro-rights" than I am "anti-abortion." Being a big fan of the freedoms protected by our great Bill of Rights means that sometimes those rights will apply to people I disagree with. That's freedom. That's America.

[Deep13]

22. the policy is limited government

Everytime I have talked to people generally and women in particular about this issue (except for religious idealogues) I heard the same thing: abortion is bad, but the legal option should be available. Essentially it is that my moral judgments should not control other people. It seems, therefore, that voters have no trouble drawing a distiction. The real problem for us is that pro-choice voters do not vote on that issue while right-to-lifers are pretty single-minded.

The only way to do what you are suggesting is to be against abortion rights, because you will never convince the majority that abortion is a good thing, even if it is. In many states, that might actually be the thing to do for purely tactical reasons. Opposing late term abortion may help us nationally by removing a devisive issue from the table. I do not like that idea, but I am willing to consider anything at this point to keep swing states like Ohio and FL sliding further into the red zone and to avoid loosing states like PA and Wisc.

[Warren DeMontague]

27. Can we at least still be pro-acid and pro-amnesty?

Please?

[Warren DeMontague]

29. If we are really interested in re-framing the debate...

We should be mentioning that the Republicans and anti-choice crowd are anti-birth control at every turn.

Safe, legal and accesible birth control should be the area where everyone can come together, since it is obstensibly preferable to prevent the pregnancy than to terminate it surgically. But the GOP wants to protect the "rights" of pharmacists to deny pills to rape victims and to lecture unmarried women about their sex lives, and many "right-to-life" folks have the outright criminalization of ALL forms of birth control as the secret (and not-so-secret) end goal of their agenda.

Why we have to play this constant apology game is beyond me, when the other guy has positions that are CLEARLY indefensible.

[Coexist]

30. Safe and legal is enough for me.

I have a teenage daughter - rare insinuates limited access. Don't mess with the bodies of the women in my family, please, and I won't recommend castration for all men accused of sex crimes (date rape included).

[Hello_Kitty]

33. The inability of women to control their reproduction

Is a common characteristic of EVERY poverty-stricken, third world shithole country. The only exceptions are those, such as Saudi Arabia, that have a wealth of a natural resource.

When women have baby after baby while not being able to adequately care for the children they already have, it's a recipe for economic disaster for a nation.

For this and all the other reasons, I will always support the right of a woman to choose.

[Virginian]

35. "End Partial Birth Abortions" - VA Dem Candidate for Governor.

Tim Kaine, the candidate for Governor in Virginia wants to end "Partial Birth Abortions."
It bothered me at first that he was using that term because I keep reading that there is no such medical procedure. I read up on what he was saying and it looks like he has framed the idea perfectly. He wants to make sure that there is a clause in the law that makes exceptions for the health of the woman. The Republicans refused to put this clause into their legislation because they wanted the courts to rule it invalid so that the wedge issue would persist and they could blame the "Activist Judges."
He is not advocating ending "Late Term Abortions," just "Partial Birth Abortions" with exceptions for the health of the woman. As far as I know, and I do not have much exposure to the issue, the only reason for the procedure the right has named a "Partial Birth Abortion" is to preserve the health of the woman.

IMHO, women don't generally run down to the clinic for an abortion in their third trimester because they forgot to go earlier.

From the way I understand it, his proposal would do nothing more than clear up any confusion over what the law currently is. And in doing this, he would win over some of the voters the right has lied to all these years.

I would like some other opinions on this, here is the issues page of his website. Abortion is at the bottom of the page.
http://www.kaine2005.org/issues.asp

[madfloridian]

37. Here's a statement on that subject.

http://www.crocuta.net/Dean/Dean_Statement-'PBA'_Ban_Nov6_2003.htm

"As a physician, I am outraged that President Bush has decided that he is qualified to practice medicine. There is no such thing in the medical literature as “partial birth abortion.” But there are times when doctors are called upon to perform a late term abortion to save a woman's life or protect her health. Today President Bush made it a crime for a doctor to perform such medically necessary procedures when a woman's health is at stake.

“This law will chill the practice of medicine and endanger the health of countless women. Despite what politicians tell you, there is not an epidemic of third trimester abortions in this country. This kind of legislation serves the sole purpose of chipping away women's constitutionally protected reproductive rights with the ultimate goal of overturning Roe v. Wade.

“I support Planned Parenthood, the Center for Reproductive Rights and the National Abortion Federation in their efforts to overturn the ban on the grounds that it is overly broad and unconstitutional.”

I don't think the bill has the option of saving the life of the woman. I can not get the link to work, though I can find it at google on a search of dean and late term abortion. I just got there by the link, but it won't work from here.