Wes Clark in Qatar: Democracy Cannot be Imposed...

[Totally Committed]

Former French minister praises Qatar’s initiative
Web posted at: 3/31/2005 6:31:28

DOHA: Former foreign minister of France Hubert Vederine, who addressed the closing session, praised Qatar’s initiative to host such forums affirming the importance of change and the significance of learning from others’ experience to avoid mistakes. In his address, Vederine said US must set a model example of democracy and not ignore the local dimension of democracy.

He pointed to some mistakes by the Arab side including rejection of the idea of change itself.

Former commander of Nato Gen Wesley Clark spoke of democratic notions and its spread worldwide and US strategy to achieve democracy through the necessary framework to establish a decision-making policy that could serve people and respect their basic rights.

General Clark also said democracy could not be imposed as it should spring from within to be protected by those societies. He called on the Arab world to work for establishing democracy which can help organise the life of the people in the best possible form.

http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=local_news&month=march2005&file=local_news2005033163128.xml


As we all know, Wes has said this before:

"Freedom and dignity spring from within the human heart. They are not imposed. And inside the human heart is where the impetus for political change must be generated." -- From "Broken Engagement" by Gen. Wesley Clark

TC

[trillian]

1. He knows what's right.........

......and isn't afraid to say it.

No poll watching or focus groups for him......just straight from the heart!

:applause:

[Totally Committed]

2. You got that right!

Wes is the real deal. No "tailoring" of his message from group to group, because, as you said so beautifully... he speaks from the heart!

TC

[Texas_Kat]

3. This has been one of his quotes I've loved the best

and have added it to my sig line.

[Clark2008]

4. To wit: "...democracy in the Middle East is unlikely to come

at the point of our gun." ~ Clark

But, then, of course, the neocons couldn't make a fortune trading in the military industrial complex if we let that happen.

God, please let Wesley Clark run in 2008!

[pkspiegel]

5. 2008 prayer

Yes,God, and please make it so that 2008 is not too late! We need someone with genuine International credentials in the White House, the faster the better. I worry about any other alternative...

[Totally Committed]

10. I never thought of it from this POV...

All of those here who continually whine about the Military-Industrial Complex and General Clark should also ponder how UN-MIC his views are.

There are other Democrats who are far more gung-ho and raring to go than Wes is. Thanks for this post. I now have a new POV to consider!

TC

[haypops]

6. It is a dangerous world

and no other candidate has Clark's abilities. I recently heard on NPR radio that applications for the service academies were down so that only 9 of 10 applicants were being rejected now. Not only did Clark go to West Point but he was first in his class 3 of 4 years there. The best of the best.

[ClarkUSA]

7. Americans, are you listening to General "Gravitas" Clark?

I doubt it.

[Spazito]

8. I have had that quote as my sig line since the article that

contained it was published. It says everything about his priorities and everything that is wrong with bush and his policies, imo.

[Gloria]

9. Clark is the only one who makes me feel sane....

Correction: pair him with Dean, and I'm in heaven lately.

And for old times sake, I'll listen to Gore's speeches.

[sharonking21]

11. I'm just waiting for someone to

lift this part of the article out of context and then accuse him of favoring Bush's way of spreading democracy or of being a Neocon.

Former commander of NATO Gen Wesley Clark spoke of democratic notions and its spread worldwide and US strategy to achieve democracy through the necessary framework to establish a decision-making policy that could serve people and respect their basic rights.

Anyone got a cross or other protective amulet that we can hold up to fend off the ignorant? Or do they make things for that?

To anyone mentally challenged enough to do so, I remind you to look at what Clark said about not imposing democracy at the end of a gun.

I also remind you that gently facilitating democracy is rather fundamental given our origins and it has nothing, nada, zip, to do with Bush and his crew, who have co opted it for dishonorable purposes and who go about it in dishonorable ways.

(Weird, don't you think, that I should feel I have to defend this or illuminate the unenlightened?)

[Totally Committed]

12. I think that those who dislike Clark...

bend over backwards to seize on this sort of thing all the time. Frankly, I'm fed up to the teeth with it. They would find something wrong with The Sermon on the Mount, if Wes had said it instead of Jesus. The man cannot win with some.

I like that he speaks from his heart. If this is taken out of context, we'll just have to deal with it. But, thank you for being so fair as to point it out and defend it early.

Thanks, Sharon.

TC

[Jai4WKC08]

14. Maybe it's just me...

But it seems sort of like beggin' for trouble to get defensive before anyone has attacked. Lord knows, I've seen 'em do it over and over too, but still seems like jumping the gun.

But since you did ;), I think it's worth noting that the name of the conference was the "5th Doha Forum on Democracy and Free Trade." That's not in the article TC posted, but if you browse around the site, you'll find it. So since it was a forum on democracy in the Middle East, it would be sort of stupid for anyone to attack Clark on speaking on... democracy in the Middle East. Duh.

Not that that'll stop some.

[sharonking21]

15. You are probably correct

I'm still reacting adversely to him being called a neocon on an earlier thread and to the selection of just one piece of text to try to sum up the man, his work and his ideas. Mea Culpa.

I should have waited to jump with both feet onto the first person to try it here. :>)

[Jai4WKC08]

19. Some people are just ignorant.

Anyone who thinks Clark is a neocon doesn't know what a neocon is.

But as for this article... the thing is, we don't even have one piece of text from General Clark himself. The first single-sentence paragraph describe what he talked about, but not what he said one way or the other. So yeah, I can see where people might try to read whatever they want to into it.

With any luck, maybe he'll blog about it at WesPAC when he gets back. He has with several of his last trips overseas.

[ZootSuitGringo]

13. Thank you for posting this article.

As I am saying quite a bit these days, the elections of 2006 and 2008 will be War with the Right Wing. They have fired the first shots with this "value of life" crapola. In order to win this war, we need a kick ass Democrat who's gonna represent us well.

I believe that Wes Clark really is qualified to kick some ass yesterday, today and tomorrow. Whether he will be given a chance by those who want to win, but have no clue on how to do this, we shall see.

[nancyharris]

16. Perhaps General Clark

would like to point to an example of an Arab country that has “established democracy”.

[Jai4WKC08]

17. How is that relevant? n/t

[nancyharris]

18. It would

provide an example of the type of foreign policy toward the Arab world that has shown to be successful.

[Jai4WKC08]

20. You have to define success

Before you can determine what type of policy has been successful.

Are you saying democracy is the only measure?

But I still don't understand how your question is relevant to Clark and this conference in Qatar. Do you think he should be proposing US policy there? Not bloody likely.

[nancyharris]

21. The article plainly quotes General Clark

as saying "He called on the Arab world to work for establishing democracy which can help organise the life of the people in the best possible form."

Are you saying that it is not proper for the General to point to examples of Arab countries that have followed his call to work for the establishment of democracy?

[democracyindanger]

23. Are you saying that democracy must imposed on Arab states?

'Cause that's sure what it sounds like.

[nancyharris]

24. Not at all

Where did I say that?

I agree with General Clark. I think his case would be stronger if he would point to some examples of his call for Arab countries to work on establishing a democracy without outside intervention.

[Jai4WKC08]

28. Oh well, it that's what you mean

The fact is, there are none. Not the way we think of democracy. Or at least have thought of it historically--I wonder lately.

Some of the Gulf states have been making progress. Kuwait, for example, has some sort of legislative body. Qatar, where this forum took place, has made some baby-steps, altho I don't know to what extent there are democratic institutions in place. But none can be called a true democracy. Whatever that means.

So yeah, I guess "his case would be stronger," but he's not gonna just make shit up. He doesn't do that.

[Jai4WKC08]

25. Sorry, but you're not making sense to me

Clark was invited to a conference that the Qataris held, with a subject of democracy and free trade. In it, "he called... for establishing democracy..."

Now, obviously, this just happened yesterday, so there's hardly time for ANY Arab country to "have followed his call" (as you put it). But even if there were, so what? Why should he have to point to examples--and I assume your point is that there are none--in order to encourage the Arabs to work toward establishing one now?

As for me, I tend to think that Qatar is hosting a forum about democracy shows that they at least have some interest in the idea. And in fact, I think you'll find that Qatar has made some progress. But what is Clark, or any American, suppose to do? Go there and say, "Forget it. You people have yet to achieve democracy so you're obviously not up to it"?

Oh, and btw... Clark isn't QUOTED in the article above at all. That's one of my problems with it. None of the words are out of his mouth, and there's sure as hell not enough information given to get any sort of feel for overall flavor of what he had to say.

[nancyharris]

27. Talk about not making sense....

<"None of the words are out of his mouth, and there's sure as hell not enough information given to get any sort of feel for overall flavor of what he had to say.">

Then why post this?

<"Why should he have to point to examples">

So people can see the wisdom of his position.

[Jai4WKC08]

30. But there are no examples to point to

Could it be that we're coming from totally different assumptions and so we're talking AT each other, not TO each other?

[nancyharris]

31. Oh, but there are examples

Mubarak's efforts in Egypt to establish multi-party elections, the recent Palestine election, Lebanon's call for free elections, Saudi Arabia's municipal elections....

There are many instances in the Arab world of people working for democracy. The fact that you were not aware of it is even MORE testament that people like General Clark should point to these particular efforts as examples of Arabs working for democracy.

[Jai4WKC08]

32. You've been listening to too much Bush propaganda

Nothing has changed in Egypt or Lebanon, and I don't count the elections in Saudi Arabia for much. Palestine has had an election but it is a LONG way from a democracy. There is more to demmocracy than holding elections.

There have always been people in the Arab world "working for democracy," often from inside a jail cell or in exile. But they have so far not been very successful.

A couple things...

It is not a "fact" that I'm unaware of anything. You're terribly imprecise with the words you choose.

And you don't know that Clark didn't mention any, all, or none of these things. You can't tell what he said or didn't say from three little sentences in a foreign paper that don't even give a single quote.

[incapsulated]

33. So...

Are you one of those that believe that Democracy is breaking out all over the ME?

As far as Egypt goes, they are dependent on US aid, and Mubarak has been "promising" elections for a decade. I wouldn't hold my breath. And any movement is basically being made under threat of withholding money, not exactly a recipe for a stable democratic process.

Saudi? Come on, whatever they come up with will be extremely limited and little more than an attempt to appease those who want the royal family out of power, many of whom are religious extremists. Which isn't going to happen peacefully any time soon.

Lebanon already has elections and the recent events there have very little to do with the US and "democracy" and a lot more to do with longstanding internal politics that go back to a civil war, and a recent assassination. Karameh is stalling and trying to hold on to power, and a showdown is likely.

The situation in Palestine is so involved with Israel, occupation and war that it really doesn't translate into any plan for democracy that other countries can follow, and who would want to?

I don't see how any of these situations could be used by Clark or anyone else as an example of how to create democracies in the ME.

[Clark2008]

34. Uhh... Mubarak's "multi-party" elections are based on an

"approved" list of choices - approved, of course, by him. He's ensuring that his son takes his place. It would take me forever to explain how this works (or doesn't work), but, trust me, the Egyptians would make BushCo. look like amateurs in baiting and switching.
Lebanon's call for free elections was a result of Hariri's assassination and now, with Syria making a move to hang onto Damascus, all we're going to see out of there is nothing or a civil war.
If you wanted to point to the best example, you'd have to point to Baharain, Moroco or Jordan - none of whom have a "democracy" as we know it, but each have elected leaders of parliment under a king (and, in Jordan's case, an intelligent, well-educated king).

[sybil]

26. From the beginning...

...America called itself a democracy, altho even so recently as 40 years ago a huge segment of our population was not allowed to vote...remember that? Yes? No? And, here's a brain flash, given the incidents that occurred in Ohio and other states in 2000, 2004, we have not yet totally evolved. Obviously.

It takes a very long time to establish a true democracy. How, exactly, is it wrong for Wes Clark or anyone else to call for it in our country or in any other?


"Freedom and dignity spring from within the human heart. They are not imposed. And inside the human heart is where the impetus for political change must be generated."
From Broken Engagement by Gen. Wesley K Clark

[nancyharris]

29. Really?

<"How, exactly, is it wrong for Wes Clark or anyone else to call for it in our country or in any other?">

Please let me know where I said that he was wrong to speak out for democracy. I don't believe I have said that anywhere in my posts. Can you point out to me where I said this?

[sybil]

36. No sweetie, you didn't say ...

Wes Clark was wrong to call for democracy...you only want proof that his call has been answered within what, 48 hours of his speech?

You're just too clever-by-half!

D.K. has called for "world peace". I respect him for it, but you gotta agree his call sure as hell hasn't been answered. What do you make of it?

[Totally Committed]

38. Are your questions rhetorical? Or do you really care about the answers?...

Dennis Kusinich is one of the finest people in politics today. I mean that sincerely. I admire his ethics and his courage more than I can tell you. I would welcome a cabinet-level Department of Peace. He's a good and decent man.

I don't know why you feel you have to attack Wes this way, or if you feel you are honoring Kusinich with such attacks, but surely you see that Wes will "answer" when he is back from his trip, and probably on his "WesBLOG" over at WesPAC. Maybe you should watch there for such details.

Until then, to keep calling for answers that would require us to read Wes' mind, or for him to answer directly here is just grand-standing. Maybe you don't want answers as much as the appearance that there are none? Search your heart and examine your motives. I believe you are being unfair. But, if you truly want to know what's on Wes' mind, and in his own words, go to:

www.securingamerica.com

Thanks!

TC

[mmonk]

22. Go Wes go!

:thumbsup:

[CarolNYC]

35. Thanks for posting this...

I do hope he reports about the forum on his blog.

[PATRICK]

37. Enjoy the civility until the primary season opens

very admirable man, very wise words. Too bad so many things have been cop-opted, perverted and then disastrously ruined by Bushco. I know many are thinking to "weather" the crap and salvage some sort of progress later but it is frustrating how sad it is for good men like Clark to follow the Conquistadors like sincere missionaries lamenting the slaughter of the innocents and the crude exploitations.

It is the rightful recovery of democracy and power to the people that must get 'progress" off the death track.

How many fledgling democracies fearful of losing control of their oil are buying those Diebold machines and the good assistance of American election experts?

I think we are leveled by now concerning who is righteous and has the right motivation, talents and principles. The point is WHO can even see HOW to win? I think the vast majority would naturally be rallied around a decent capable leader or party. I feel like all the normal people have been sentenced to some weird home exile from liberty and reason. I think a lot of candidates have extra loyal followers. Fantasy or wishful thinking apparently is on no one's side except the forces of darkness.