Local news is reporting that T.S. is now getting morphine. Why?

[rzemanfl]

The fundies are going to either claim this shows she is in agony or that she is being euthanized. Any medical people out there have a comment?

[Delphinus]

1. Isn't this considered

part of her palliative care? From what I understand, morphine is given to help ease any discomfort. Standard practice, I believe.

[ohioliberal]

2. My father was on morphine

when he passed away this past Monday. He was on a respirator for two weeks. Thankfully he had a living will and did not want to be on a life support including a feeding tube. The morphine makes the person in a relaxed state of mind not feeling any pain or knowledge of where they are. My father was in a peaceful state and that's why I think they are doing this for Terri.

[dbt]

6. Solidarity with you, ohioliberal.

I got to watch my Mom spend nine months on a feeding tube back in '02. NOT a pretty sight, NOT the miracle that it's made out to be on Terrorvision.

Hoping you are bearing up!

[ohioliberal]

7. Doing pretty good

So is my mom. There's nothing worse then watching a loved one pass especially when you start thinking you were just talking with them a couple of days ago.

[katinmn]

12. I'm sorry about your loss, Ohioliberal

:hug:

[liberal43110]

53. I'm proud of you, ohioliberal

I had to make the decision to remove my dad's feeding tube 2 years ago, so I know what you're going through. Losing a parent is so difficult, I feel for you. He had a severe stroke after surgery, so I know what you mean about how hard it is to see someone so incapacitated when you were just talking to them a few days ago.

By the way, I'm an "ohioliberal" too! :hi:

[Jeanette in FL]

9. My condolences to you, Ohioliberal

On the passing of your father. Last year, my father passed away after removing his ventalator and he was given morphine too. It was very peaceful, though heart wrenching for me and my Mom. Thank goodness he had a living will and we also knew his final wishes.

[babylonsister]

11. I'm sorry for your loss, ohioliberal.

And I agree about the morphine; saw my mom go through her end days as well, and morphine was her friend til the end.

[Pepperbelly]

13. When I lost my Mom ...

in 1998, she died at home with us, her family. She was pronounced terminal by the docs in July and she passed at the end of October that year. She was concious until the end.

My heart goes out to you. Grieve, honor and then, the caravan moves on.

Peace to you.

[Sparkly]

31. My sympathies, ohioliberal

I lost my father in 2001, my mother in 2002, my mother-in-law in 2003. My father and mother-in-law passed slowly, in hospice; my mother went suddenly and unexpectedly. Having the time to hold their hand and say goodbye and see them at peace is sacred.

(Before the morphine, my Dad asked for a scotch and soda, something he hadn't had in years due to drug interactions. Mom was aghast, but what was the harm by then -- he drank it through a straw and loved every sip. I think it's all about quality of life, right to the end.)

[liberal43110]

55. Nice story, Sparkly

I enjoyed hearing about your dad and his Scotch and soda!!!

My dad has some juice in hospice, even though he couldn't swallow, and we removed the feeding tube. He just poured the carton of juice into his mouth and it spilled over onto his face and chest. I don't know if he swallowed any or not...that wasn't important...it was just so wonderful to see him enjoy something after he had gone 3 months without any food or liquid in his mouth!!!!

[Stephanie]

33. My condolences on your loss

One difference, though. Terri is insensate. She does not experience hunger or thirst. What is the purpose of the medication? Does she still have the part of the brain that the medication targets? What is the point of this?

[Piperay]

47. So SORRY

for your loss. :hug:

[foreverdem]

50. Sorry for your loss

My condolences to you. My father passed away in 2000, and at the time, he was on a ventilator, dialysis and a feeding tube. The dr's told my mom he would not live long, it could be days or weeks, and she told them to disconnect the machines because she knew it was what my dad would have wanted and he was suffering. He was on some kind of IV drip, and passed peacefully in his sleep. My mom said it was the hardest decision she ever had to make, but what my dad would have wanted. Too bad the fundies have no idea what this statement means.

[RFKHumphreyObama]

51. My sincere and heartfelt sympathies and condolences Ohioliberal

On the loss of your father. I will keep all of you in my thoughts and prayers:hug:

[rqstnnlitnmnt]

3. AFAIK standard procedure

in someone's last days they dope them up on tons of morphine to make sure the person is in the most comfort possible (let's say we're dealing with someone with horrible and excruciating cancer...)

these hospice workers truly are servents of the higher Good. and these fucking bastard pathetic excuses for humans (let alone christians) are spreading the euthenasia meme. if anyone's going to burn in hell, it's these sad pathetic religious freaks.

[Pepperbelly]

5. I suspect it also diminishes the fear we all face at death's door.

I mean ... all of us have ideas of what to expect after death. Something or nothing according to the individual but regardless of what set of beliefs to which one adheres, the element of fear is always present.

[seeker4ever]

4. She needn't suffer...

This is to ease pain even though she is in a vegatative state as long as there's a chance that she can sense pain... why torture her any more than her parents already have.

[pnutchuck]

8. "The Myth of Dying"

I was unaware of standard euthanasia practices until I saw this article from another thread the other day.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x115180

[rzemanfl]

15. Thank you, very informative. n/t

[animuscitizen]

10. This is a normal in hospice care--called "terminal sedation"

It is not the same as "euthanasia."

[rzemanfl]

14. I doubt any fundie will see the distinction, but thank you. n/t

[elehhhhna]

28. Hospice nurse told me it also prevents death-rattle, flailing, etc.

at the very end--it's less disturbing for the family as well as the patient.

[Tippy]

56. This is what we were told

My sister passed last month and we knew she was in extream pain but they told us that it would also prevent the death-rattle and flailing...

[WearyOne]

16. if she's brain dead how can she feel pain ???

[rzemanfl]

17. That is exactly why I posted this despite it being the jillionth

TS post. The Schindlers and the Schiavos are giving wildly divergent reports on TS's condition. Mom and Dad say she is suffering and crying-hubby through his lawyer that she is peaceful.

[seabeyond]

18. they do it for the comfort of family

fron what i hear though many die in this manner from number of illness, seeing this is how the body shuts down to die, and regardless of having the condition of the brain like terri or not, from what i hear, it is not painful for people to go in this manner. by the time their body is to this point it doesnt feel the pain. but the family imagines there to be a pain with patient and the hospital gives the morphine, so it is a comfort tool for the family, not something the patient needs. it is to cover all basis to make sure without a doubt that the is no pain being felt. whether the patient is feeling or capable of feeling or not

[bush_is_wacko]

23. Comforting the family is exactly what it is doing.

It is routine procedure anyway, in a case like this, but it is a sure sign Terri is close to death and her parents are probably very upset. They did this for 4 members of my family as well. Three of them probably needed it. The forth was just a comfort for the family thing.

I was there in all of these cases when the person passed and there was never any indication of pain. Actually in the first three cases they endured MANY painful years so when this stage finally came, I'm sure it was a relief to them. Dehydration itself is a natural painkiller.

Not to compare Terri to an animal. But Dehydration and starvation is the method old animals use to self euthanize. Sometimes when an old pet seemingly loses it's mind and takes off out the front door it will do the same.

Some Indians used to do this as well. Humans have become so used to thinking medical technology is the answer to everything they forget the body has always known how to die, we have just learned to interfere. Most elderly people die in a blissful state regardless of the disease process they are dying from and with no help from medical technology

[WearyOne]

29. I'm sure they would be very kind to the family and far kinder

than those creeps that are making political capital out of it

[Democrat 4 Ever]

19. One newscast reported that the doctors and her husband do not

think that Mrs. Shiavo is feeling anything but are medicating to err on the side of caution. She is not going to recover from the removal of the feeding tube but they aren't heartless, mean ogres that are willing to take the chance she is in any pain during this last journey. I choose to believe they are still looking out for her.

[MollyStark]

30. Why did they give her pain medication during her menstrual periods?

:shrug:

[Warpy]

20. Hospice nurses err on the side of comfort

Comatose or PVS patients may react to pain by an increase in blood pressure and heart rate. It's purely an autonomic response, as conscious as our breathing is when we're sleeping. Although the structures that recognize sensations as pain or pleasure are gone, that may be what is happening.

People with spinal cord injuries and NO sensation below the waist will have a reaction that causes huge increases in blood pressure if they have a blister on their lower body or if their bladders are too full or any of a number of uncomfortable sensations. They can't feel any of it, but their bodies let them know there is a problem by a spike in blood pressure and heart rate.

Comfort is the first aim of hospice care, and morphine and sedatives are used very liberally. This doesn't mean anything particularly grave. It's just standard care in a hospice.

[zbdent]

21. Sounds like SOP to me

On a similar, but not truly related note, ask the shitheads why there's an alcohol swab before they perform a lethal injection? And why, if that's such a humane way to die, they don't give the condemned morphine, too?

[El Fuego]

22. Morphine drip is a form of euthanasia

I learned this AFTER my Mom died of cancer 10 years ago.

[shance]

24. Standard response.

When my mother was dying, this was the procedure taken for her as well.

[deadparrot]

25. here is an answer...

Caregivers typically moisten the mouths of patients who have stopped eating and drinking, Byock said. Many, Hansen-Flaschen said, also give morphine, more to relieve the worries of relatives than to lessen pain.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/11245844.htm

(I'm not sure if this will come up as a forced-registration. If it does, you can look it up through Yahoo!News. The title is "Death from dehydration a gentle process, scientists say.")

ETA: Yes, it does require registration.

http://news.search.yahoo.com/news/search?p=morphine&ei=UTF-8&fl=0&b=11

Here's a link. It is story #16.

[MollyStark]

26. Because she is in pain

That's the only reason to give morphine.

[Lars39]

27. Her cerebral cortex is gone....she can't feel pain.

[MollyStark]

32. Just keep telling yourself that

It's not rational or scientifically accurate, but it supports your political position on this matter, so that is all that counts.

[Bouncy Ball]

36. It has nothing to do with politics and it IS very scientifically

accurate and you'd know that if you knew anything about the cerebral cortex, but apparently you don't if you think someone in Terri's condition can feel or think ANYTHING. It's basic biology 101.

[Stephanie]

37. Her brain is gone - there is only spinal fluid where her brain used to be

She can't feel pain, hunger, or thirst. She only has a brain stem that controls the most primitive bodily functions. If you are interested in science, as you indicate, you might want to study the functions of the brain. In the meantime it would be wise not to insult people who are more educated on the subject than you are, lest you appear foolish.

[OneTwentyoNine]

49. Maybe you should look at post #28....n/t

[Lars39]

52. Sweetie, without a cerebral cortex she can't feel anything.

It isn't guess work; the human brain has been studied enough to determine that.

[judgegina]

35. I agree that she can't feel pain...

so then, why give her morphine?

It seems like if morphine is going to be used, then they should have just given her a huge dose when the feeding tube was removed and said goodbye.

[Bouncy Ball]

38. They aren't allowed to do that "huge dose" thing

as that's illegal. They ARE allowed to give reasonable amounts towards the end and it is done more for the relief of the family than the patient (ironically), especially in Schiavo's case, since the chances of her being in pain anyway are about the same as my chances of waking up tomorrow as the Queen of England.

[Bouncy Ball]

34. She can't feel any pain, but this is standard operating procedure

and done for the comfort of the family more than anything else. So the family will feel for SURE their loved one is not in any pain, whether they need it or not.

[Stephanie]

40. And why not?

I don't argue with it. Minimal expense for peace of mind for the family. If it's a placebo for the family's anxiety, so what? I have no objection.

[Bouncy Ball]

42. I totally agree.

When my grandfather died of cancer a couple of years ago, he was on a morphine drip. He was so out of it, I'm not sure how much he felt anymore, but it did comfort us so much. He had stopped eating DAYS before. I wish more people understood the dying process.

[MollyStark]

41. Well isn't that convenient?

Life is so easy when all you can see is black and white.
Why do you suppose the doctors gave her pain meds during her periods? Was that to make her loved ones feel better too?
She is feeling pain. She may not be aware of it (or maybe she is and you just will never be sure about that) but her body is. They wouldn't bother giving her meds if that wasn't the case.

[Bouncy Ball]

43. Yes, I'm certain

with that much of her higher brain missing, she's not feeling a thing. Again, basic biological facs. Look 'em up.

The higher brain (the part she's missing) is where your brain receives and interprets pain signals. It's where "OW!" originates. Your nerve endings don't say "OW!" they only send the message. There aren't little brains on your nerve endings.

The brain interprets those messages. And the area where the brain interprets pain messages is MISSING IN TERRI.

How is she supposed to feel pain when the entire part of her brain responsible for saying "OW!" is GONE?????

Answer me that.

As for her periods, read this whole thread. Again, done FOR THE FAMILY'S comfort. If she has felt ANYTHING in the last several years, I'm a purple-skinned Martian with antennae. I'll put it to you this way, if someone were standing here before me in person saying what you are saying, I would bet $10,000 that she can't feel anything at all. There are few things I'm more certain of.

Except these:

1. The earth revolves around the sun, not the other way around.
2. Gravity pulls objects toward the earth.
3. The earth is generally a spherical shape.

This issue as to whether someone missing their cerebral cortex can feel anything falls into those types of categories. Earth is round kind of stuff. I'm still gobsmacked anyone would even argue otherwise.

[onenote]

45. illogical statement alert

"She is feeling pain. She may not be aware of it...."

How does one "feel" something that they aren't aware of? The fact is that the predominant medical view is that a patient in a Persistent Vegetative State is unconscious, but wakeful. Its fairly well settled that when people are unconcious they don't "feel" pain. Indeed, we know this because lots of people are rendered unconscious for periods of time and when they awake, they don't report having "felt" pain while out.

But even if we assume that the predominant view is wrong and patients in a PVS can experience pain, then Terri has been experiencing far more pain from her physical condition (atrophied muscles, etc)over the past 15 years than from the the effects of dehydration over the past few days.

I appreciate your strong feelings about this, but the idea that Terri's "body" is "aware" of something that her "mind" cannot experience is just wrong.

onenote

[Stephanie]

46. Molly you seem to have the inside scoop

How do you know the rationale behind the doctor's decision?

Answer: YOU DON'T

[paineinthearse]

39. ???Local news is reporting...???

1. Link please.
2. What is the local meadia's source of the information?

[Bouncy Ball]

44. Don't hold your breath or anything.

:eyes:

[Warren DeMontague]

48. Because no one has informed the DEA and the DOJ yet.

They have been doing their damndest to make sure that everyone who is terminally ill dies nice and clean and sober, so much so that doctors are now terrified to prescribe anything resembling adequate pain management medication. My advice? If you find yourself with bone cancer, get the fuck out of the country.

[samplegirl]

54. I am positive

the family has the right to refuse it if they want. So it must
of been ok'd by the family.