Dear centrists - how do you feel today?

[DancingBear]

Shall we forgive the traitorous three that just destroyed one of the last great bastions of natural beauty in this nation?

Shall we say "now, now" and wait to "pick our battles" down the road?

Do you realize now how hollow your arguments ring? How even a "DINO" Democrat is better than a Republican? How we need to work for a majority in Congress, and running real Democrats in selected primary races would only weaken the case?

This is only the beginning, my fine centrist friends - only the beginning.

If you'd like to join us in helping bring back the Democratic party, we welcome you. But if you don't, expect no quarter, for you are very very wrong.

We will stop you - we have to.

[southpaw]

1. I echo your sentiments, DB!

The only thing you get by straddling the fence is a fence-post up the ass!

[Capn Sunshine]

2. .

:kick: too good to sink early.

[quinnox]

3. There is room for all points of view in my opinion

Not just hard left in the Dem party. Heck, by DU standards I'm probably a conservative although I am a liberal Dem!

I'm disappointed in the vote, but I'd still rather have moderate Dems than some wingnut republican.

[maxsolomon]

47. THERE IS NO HARD LEFT IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY

when will you get that through your head?

hard corporate-friendly center-left maybe. but LEFT left? radical libertarian socialist, green, tree hugging left? chomsky left? howard zinn left?

PUH LEEZ

[stray cat]

4. Republican centrists opposed the drilling

Many democrat centrists opposed the drilling. How is centrist defined on the issues - or is it anyone that we disagree with at the moment. I think some of our DINOs opposed drilling - are they no longer DINOs?

[mzmolly]

7. Egzactly.

:shrug:

[mzmolly]

5. Screw the labels. These THREE people deserve our scorn, but

please don't chalk it up to "centrism."

Clinton (a centrist) did not support drilling in ANWR. When we label a.k.a. Naderize everything, we fail to hold individuals accountable by condemning the entire Democratic Party.

Let us remember the fight WE DEMOCRATS put up as well. And, NEVER let Nader and his minions forget it.

"The DEMOCRATS supported drilling in ANWR" I can hear the lying shitbag already. :eyes:

[DaveinMD]

6. the Hawaii Dems

are hardly centrists. They are generally liberal on most issues. They made the wrong vote, but that doesn't mean they are centrist.

By the way, this vote doesn't even come up if Dems are in control, but nice try.

[DancingBear]

12. Ah, well

Just a wrong vote. The beginning of the ripping apart of environmental legislation that took years to get passed.

But hey, they're pretty good guys, anyway,

And hey, if we were in the majority, this vote wouldn't have even come up. Of course, if we had Democrats who cared more about their constituents than the oil/gas contributors that fund their campaigns than the bill would have been defeated, AND we could have successfully painted Bush as a rabid anti-environmentalist (which of course he is), AND we could have stopped future assaults on the air and water (which are sure to come).

But what the heck, it's only ONE vote, right????

As the elephant gets eaten one bite at a time...

[DaveinMD]

13. ah

blame the Dems because three Senators voted for it rather than the Republicans and the more than 45 Senators that voted against it.

[DancingBear]

19. Let's see - if 3 Dems, who supposedly have our interests at heart,

had voted for the Cantwell Amendment, there would be no drilling in Alaska.

But I'm not supposed to blame them.

Could you be so kind as to tell me whom I should blame?

[DaveinMD]

20. how about

the vast majority of the Republican caucus that not only voted for it, but promoted it.

[Goldmund]

22. Because that's what the Republicans do.

We have no influence over Republicans. We do over Democrats, who are there because of our votes -- the Republicans aren't.

The Republicans will loot and pillage. We all know that. Democrats are the only hope of stopping them.

Some fucking hope.

On Edit: what you're saying is similar to "how come those protesters are protesting against Bush, but not Saddam and Osama?"

[DancingBear]

25. Nope, sorry

We KNEW what they were about.

We THOUGHT we knew what we were about.

Big difference.

[DaveinMD]

31. all but three Dems voted the right way

The senators from Hawaii have a long record of doing the right thing. Landrieau not as much, but she's the best we can get out of that state right now.

[FromTheLeft]

23. The are not supposed to have our interests at heart

They are supposed to hold the beliefs and principals of the constituency that elected them and represent those ideals to the best of their ability.

These three in general have good voting records. Just because they acted differently on one vote than you would have liked does not make them evil, it makes them not you.

[JI7]

32. they do have their constituents in mind

the people of the states that elected these 3 Senators support their votes including the Democrats in those states.

[peacetalksforall]

8. Doesn't Inouye have an excellent record on votes for the people and

the land? What the #$&@ happened?

[DancingBear]

30. I thought this as well

Are gas prices in HI prohibitively high (discounting the natural logistical increase), and were both of them swayed by this?

I do not know the answer, but one would think that they would have been at least informed enough to know that ANWR "will promote energy independence" was nothing more than a bold-faced lie.

[madfloridian]

9. They warn Dean "do no harm." Then they do it themselves.

I am outraged.

[mongo]

10. How does your ranting help the party?

And yes, there are many more important battles than ANWR, sorry.

At least the senate dems are planning to stand their ground on Bush judgicial nominees.

Shall we forgive the traitorous three that just destroyed one of the last great bastions of natural beauty in this nation?

Not that I believe that drilling in ANWR is a good thing, but this over the top and untrue statement is nothing but spin. Only more obvious than the phoney arguments FOR drilling in ANWR. It does not help our case.

[Goldmund]

16. What is "our cause"?

[mongo]

42. What I'm responding to is the over the top statement

that ANWR has just been "destroyed". Statements like this do not ever help get a progressive message accross.

[Goldmund]

43. OK, if you insist, I'll rephrase --

-- what is the progressive message?

[Eloriel]

46. And statements/sentiments like yours pretty much ALWAYS

hold us back, serving to enable and embolden the thug opposition.

[DancingBear]

17. Wait till they come after you and your business

Bush will frame that debate in such a way that Democrats will jumping on his back to get photo-ops.

And if you don't think Bush and the boys will make Alaska look like West Virginia, well, I can't help you there.

[mongo]

39. I don't think W Virginia has been "destroyed"

and I like the fact that I have electricity. I was responding to the OP comments that ANWR was just "destroyed", when they are talking about a relatively small footprint.

This is not to say that it is worth it in any way. I just like to see more honest talking points than hysteria.

Like the fact that it is an insignifigant amount of oil that will probably be sold to japan rather than used in the US, and that we should delay drilling as long as possible there.

And your right about them coming after me. And half of DU will be all for it too. I have NO comfort from either the right or the left.

[DancingBear]

41. "And half of DU will be all for it too'

Well, I'll be in the other half. :)

West Virginia, however, is a giant strip mine with cities on each end.

I know - I live next door.

My fear is that ANWR will be destoyed, not because it is the right way to gather oil but because Bush et al. could care less. If it is more profiitable to blow it up, then they'll blow it up.

DId the Exxon Valdez leave a "small footprint?"

It has nothing to do with "liking electricity". BTW.

[incapsulated]

18. Yeah, sure...

Once the Democrats are back in office, they will wave their magic wand and all the pristine wilderness will come back!

There are some things that cannot be changed back, restored, or recovered, once it is gone.

What the fuck is "our cause" anymore, anyway? Stopping Judaical nominees? Is that all this party can do? Can they even do that? I'm not holding my breath.

[flpoljunkie]

35. What are they saving themselves for? They are 3-0.

One-sided class action lawsuits, the one-sided bankrtupcy bill, and now ANWR!

I am sorry, but it is just not good enough for Democrats to protect Social Security and keep a few Neanderthals off the bench. Republicans would not accept such a lousy batting average on issues that represent the core of their values--access to the courts, basic consumer protections in bankrtupcy, and raping the environment for short-term greed.

Not good enough!

[mongo]

40. Of the three votes you mentioned

ANWR is at the bottom of my list. Sorry.

[brentspeak]

11. I think the problem are DINOS, not "centrists"

Howard Dean is a self-proclaimed "centrist", and he's 100% opposed to ANWR drilling.

[DaveinMD]

15. not to mention

folks like Salazar, Baucus and other centrists who voted the right way.

[Goldmund]

14. A FUCKIN MEN!

[Goldmund]

21. Let's not forget...

...this isn't just about ANWR. It is about what is an accepted environmental paradigm. It's about what comes above what in the value system of US governing. ANWR is a tragedy on itself; but expect many more tragic legislations to come. This is just one of the precedents in the ongoing shifting of legislative principles.

[JI7]

24. many of the Dems who voted against drilling are far more centrist than

the Hawaii Dems who can't really be called centrist from their overall voting record.

so i'm not really sure what the point of this post is.

[Goldmund]

26. I don't think he's talking about the three senators necessarily.

He's talking about the "let's compromise until our balls turn blue" crowd in general. DancingBear can correct me if I'm wrong.

[JI7]

29. still doesn't make sense

since many of the Senators who compromise voted with Democrats on this while 2 who voted against are ones who are mostly reliable supporters.

all 3 of the Dem senators who voted against it did it because of their states where they are elected. the people in their states support their votes including Democrats in those states.

[DancingBear]

37. No, you are correct

Upon re-reading my initial post I can see where some folks get that impression from, however. "Centrists" does indeed refer to those who excuse the AG vote, the ANWR vote, etc. on the premise that the devil you know is better than the one you don't.

That was a poor choice of linkage/header on my part, but alas, since the editing period has expired I'll just have to live with it.

Apologies are in order - bad Bear. :)

[MISSDem]

27. The really sad thing

is that with drilling we will import 65% of our oil and without drilling we will import 68%. It is just not enough difference even if you don't care about the environment.

[demwing]

28. WRONG, WRONG, WRONG

This has zilch to do with centrism-the Senators from HI are not centrists.

Why use this to pick a fight?

BTW-I agree with your "DINO" statement, but disagree with your mocking statements about regaining control of congress.

The only thing I can think of is that you're head is so wound up from the ANWR bullshit that you can't see straight. I understand.

But centrists are not your enemy.

Those who wish to take back congress are not your enemy.

And even people who (truthfully) want to pick their battles are not your enemy.

Who is the "we" that you represent, and who is the "you" thatyou think you have to stop?

I'll bet that my definition of "we" and "you" are different than yours, and that my definition is more open, respectful, and pragmatic than yours.

[bvar22]

33. My "enemy"...

..are those who vote for the interests of the Super Wealthy and Corporate Class at the expense of Labor, the Working Class, the Poor, or the Environment. I don't care if they are labeled Liberal or Conservative, Democrat of Republican.

If they are selling their vote to the Big Corps (DLC), I will work to remove them!

[DaveinMD]

38. I don't believe

the Senators from Hawaii were doing what you say. They voted wrong, but they voted this way because of who they represent. Also, not all working people oppose drilling in anwr.

[bvar22]

44. What were they thinking in Hawaii???

Has anyone figured that out yet.

And yes, some working men did support drilling, especially Alaskans, and SOME would benefit from the drilling, but the OVERALL effect of drilling in Anwar would have negligible effect on the Working Class in America. The number or REAL jobs provided by despoiling Anwar is minimal.

[DancingBear]

34. Response

1) If you'd like, read some of my previous postings - you'll see I have no desire to pick fights. I do, however, speak up when I feel like we (collective Democratic "we", in this case) are being sold down river.

2) Sorry, but I don't get "wound up." I DO, however, see very clearly the patterns that are emerging within the second Bush term. He is playing this group of cowardly Democrats like a fiddle, and unless they stand AS ONE to stop his incredibly dangerous policies it will be too late.

3) When you are being shot at from 50 directions, it makes no sense to try and pick your battle and protect your head. This results, of course, in five other fatal injuries, but a very clean head. It DOES make sense, however, to shoot back. In this political climate, the phrase "if Capone sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue" is very true.

4) Not only am I not a psychologist, I don't even play one on TV. :)

[cascadiance]

36. Hey! Let's move to Hawaii for 2006

We can have fun living there and at the same time get someone to replace Akaka with.

[fujiyama]

45. You have a point

but in this case it doesn't apply as well.

The two I am most disgusted with are Akaka and Landreu, supporting both ANWR and the bankrp. bill.

Inouye isn't bad overall, but he has to get over his AK/HI deal. It's stupid.