Is there a right to convenience in the Constitution?

[Padraig18]

You must choose.

[CubsFan1982]

1. Convenience isn't even mentioned in the Constitution. n/t

[paineinthearse]

2. Right. Is this a trick question?

Maybe I don't understand what you are getting at.

[lastliberalintexas]

3. Women's reproductive rights now = "convenience"?

:eyes:

[Padraig18]

4. Demanding that every pharmacy dispense BC, even if they don't want to.

= convenience, absent a law or regulation requiring them to do otherwise.

[lagged_variable]

5. The law

You know, we can pass laws to require pharmacies to carry BC without making any reference to Constiutionality. Maybe it's just me, but equating "freedom of speech" and "convenience" debases the value of human rights.

[Padraig18]

9. Then pass them.

But until they're passed, it's convenince.

[lagged_variable]

19. Deal!

Put it on the ballot, and I will! I'm just saying that it doesn't help women's rights to call this cause "convenience" and then to put convenience to the the level of Constitutionality. Open that door, and flag burning and gay marriage bans are next...

Why trivialize women's rights or the Bill of Rights with such a name?

[Andromeda]

41. Disagree...

birth control is not a convenience.

[Padraig18]

59. No one said it is.

BC is a right. Being able to buy it at any pharmacy you choose to walk into is not a right, however.

[mcscajun]

6. Women's Rights are NOT a "Convenience"

But if a pharmacy owner chooses to exercise his private conscience AND Posts a Sign Outside his place of business stating his policy, then unless there's a law saying he must, he can be perfectly justified in not dispensing Birth Control. I won't agree with his policy, and I will not support him with any of my money, and will encourage others to boycott his pharmacy.

If the pharmacy refusing to provide birth control is the ONLY Pharmacy in town, then such a decision is reprehensible, and would be sufficient incentive to have laws passed in that State mandating the dispensing of ALL Legal Prescriptions by that State's pharmacists.

If a pharmacist works for an owner without such a discriminatory policy and still feels compelled because of his conscience to not dispense birth control, he should be fired.

[Padraig18]

10. And a sign?

Should he have a "p" branded int his forehead for 'pro-life', too? maybe an 'F', for fundamentalist.

[mcscajun]

12. Don't be absurd. A Sign In His Window isn't a Brand

But it would prevent persons seeking Birth Control from entering his store and being refused service publicly.

This could be, for some people, upsetting verging on humiliating.

Having a sign for this is no different from a restaurant that is required to post a sign saying they do not provide a no-smoking section; it allows the consumer to make the choice BEFORE they enter the establishment.

[Padraig18]

21. Sure it is.

How is it not a brand, any more than Jews being required to display and wear yellow start were brands in Nazi Germany?

[mcscajun]

28. Take your slippery slope arguments elsewhere.

Signs stating company policy are not brands.

I'm outta here.

[blondeatlast]

16. It isn't up to a pharmacist to decide why I'm taking it.

I use the Pill to prevent the most extreme bleeding you can imagine, bleeding that rquired transfusions.

I don't want a two year chemistry grad to make that decision for me.

[Padraig18]

26. Sure it is.

Just like it's my pharmacists decision to not carry one of the medications I'm required to take, meaning i have to get it at another pharmacy. Unless a statute or regulation says he must, he need not.

[Beaverhausen]

27. What is your pharmacists reason for not carrying the med you need?

[Padraig18]

32. Does it matter?

Either my rights are or are not violated by his not having it.

[Beaverhausen]

34. I know some pharmacies don't carry certain meds for economic reasons

but they might have an alternative/generic for people to take.

I'm just wondering if you are being denied your meds for religious reasons also.

[Padraig18]

It doesn't matter why I'm being denied my med.

I can either get it there, or I can't. I can't, so I go elsewhere. The 'why' of it is where we enter the slippery slope...

[alarimer]

8. it isn't a matter of convenience

It is a matter of health. This whole discussion is about allowing someone to force their beliefs on other people. Defending this clown is beyond the pale.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

17. Yes to some people..YOUR RIGHTS are a convenience

[Padraig18]

29. That assumes that it IS a right.

There is no right to have BC pils available in any and every pharmacy you may choose to walk into.

[POAS]

7. If an AIDS patient

is refused the drug cocktail keeping him/her alive because the pharmacist believes that AIDS is God's punishment for sinful behavior and the patient dies what should the consequence (if any) be to the pharmacist for inconveniencing the AIDS patient?

Does the pharmacist have the right to practice his/her religious belief to the detriment of another?

[Padraig18]

11. The AIDS patient is a fool, f he doesn't use another pharmacy. n/t

[blondeatlast]

18. What if there is no other pharmacy?

Not everyone lives in the heart of Manhattan or even in the suburbs.

[Padraig18]

23. There are always other pharmacies.

Even in my village of 2900, the pharmacist mails meds to patients all the time, especially to the Amish, who have neither cars not telephones.

[POAS]

30. But is it the pharmacists right to

put another person at risk of death for his/her religious belief?

[blondeatlast]

31. Maybe in Illinois--but not in the far west.

I've lived in Arizona (before it was a tourist mecca) and Montana, and trust me, there are times trip to the store involves an entire day.

[Padraig18]

33. The USPS doesn't operate out west?

Has anyone told the Postmaster General of this problem?

[blondeatlast]

36. Apparently you aren't on prescription medications.

I'm so happy for you.

I'm on EIGHT. I've broken bottles of insulin and needed one right away.

[Padraig18]

37. I take seven.

I'm sorry you had a problem, but there's hardly a comparison between insulin and BC pills.

[blondeatlast]

38. In other words, you've missed my post about bleeding mearly to death

during my periods.

I was put on the Pill to control it--I no longer have the problem.

But you've got your agenda and my problem doesn't fit neatly into it, so fuck me.

[Padraig18]

So, you waited until you were completely out?

I won't go there, because the question says what needs to be said on that issue.

[Beaverhausen]

44. Some people live paycheck to paycheck and have to wait until payday

to buy certain things. So yes, sometimes people wait until the last minute to refill a prescription.

[Padraig18]

48. Then how was she gonna pay for it at that place?

Her personal problem is not automatcially the pharmacy's problem.

[Beaverhausen]

55. she would pay for it ON PAYDAY

really - not that hard to figure out.

[Padraig18]

60. Then I guess she needs to find another pharmacy, huh?

Again, her personal problem does not automatically make it the pharmacy's problem.

[Beaverhausen]

39. Some women take BC pills to keep from bleeding to death with each period

there are many reasons Drs prescribe them. They aren't just for birth control.

[lastliberalintexas]

13. Or a Black person

The pharmacist is a member of the White Christian Soldiers of the End Times and believes it is God's will for minorities to be exterminated. Dispensing medicine to those evil Black folks is against his religion, and we awful evil liberals should be tolerant of his hatred, ignorance and antipathy. :eyes:

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Padraig18]

22. No one is denying her right to birth control.

But her right to obtain it does not impose an obligation on every pharmacist to dispense it.

[blondeatlast]

35. Then let them work it out within the profession.

You seem to be assuming all pharmacists work at the local mom and pop, or maybe at Walgreen's.

Not so. My sister is a pharmacist in a county hospital. She's worked the graveyard shift for 30 years because she enjoys it. But: THERE IS ONLY ONE PHARMACIST ON DURING THE GRAVEYARD SHIFT. Plenty of technical staff, but one pharmacist.

Suppose she decides that that person who's been in a coma should peacefully end their life. Does she have the obligation to fill those meds that are keeping the patient alive?

This is a seriously slippery slope, and it was designed to be. Legislation straight out of the Heritage Foundation. Be afraid, be VERY afraid.

[Padraig18]

40. If she can't do what her employer requires, she should be fired.

It is a very slipery slope, indeed. I have said repeaedly that any employee-pharmacist who refuses to fill a 'scrip when it is company policy to fill it should be fired. If it causes a death, then a criminal charge of 'wilfull and wanton disregard' (or whatever is that state's equivalent) should be filed. Ihave not wavered a millimeter from that position.

[blondeatlast]

51. I think we've come to a meeting of the minds, then.

It should be regulated within the profession. Stae law is unnecessary and dangerous.

[Padraig18]

56. That's been my position all along.

I think the state should stay out of this mess, and the people on both sides who are advocating for laws to 'clear it up' are dangerous people whose should be avoided at all cost.

:hi:

[blondeatlast]

61. Then why make it as personal as you have? Why argue

not all of us have a 24 hour Walgreens down the street?

Why have you assumed I have made grievous medication errors?

No sale.

[Padraig18]

64. We all have access to the USPS.

Even in my podunk little town, the pharmacist mails meds every day, especially to his Amish customers who have no phone and no car. No sale, indeed, as regards the 'access to the 24-hour Walgreens' argument.

[ScreamingMeemie]

57. I don't think there was ever any question as to that. Really I don't.

I don't agree with any of these practices, I disagree with the practice of hiring pharmacists who refuse to fill these scripts, but the scenario as it stands, sadly protects them.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

15. edit dupe

[blondeatlast]

20. Pharmacists should cover this in their professional code of ethics.

What next, can anesthesioligists refuse to work a vasectomy?

[babylonsister]

52. FWIW, I agree with you, blonde. A person's religion

and/or beliefs should not be an issue for a professional legally dispensing prescriptions. Seems to me they should have gotten a degree in something that does not require human interaction.

[ET Awful]

24. Give Me Convenience or Give Me Death . . .

Or so sayeth the title of a Dead Kennedys album anyway :)

[amjucsc]

25. A store has every right not to carry something...

You could no more force a pharmacy to carry birth control pills than you could force Barnes and Noble to carry Hondas.

[POAS]

42. But a pharmacy is more than just a store

It is an integral and important part of modern medical treatment. Treatment that is decided in private between a doctor and patient and the pharmacy is in business to faciltate the treatment decisions made by those individuals without the right to interfere in the decisions made by the doctor and patient.

[Padraig18]

43. No, it's just a store.

There's 100,000 more just like it. Use one of the others.

[POAS]

45. No it is NOT

just a store, and your answer is specious!

[Padraig18]

46. Yes, it is.

It is just a place that sells stuff, and there are 100,000 other places that sell the same stuff.

[POAS]

49. How about an emergency room

There are thousands of those also, they should refuse treatment based on religious belief?

Your arguement remains specious.

[Padraig18]

65. My argument remains sound.

Pharmacies are not emergency rooms. It is your analogy that is specious.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Padraig18]

83. My premise is quite sound.

Thanks for playing.

:hi:

PS-- I won't respond to your personal attack.

[dweller]

47. a pharmacy is licensed to fill/sell Rx

any store is not.

dp

[Padraig18]

50. And do the conditions of its licensure require it to...

...carry every medicine available in the US?

[dweller]

54. there are regulations as to what

they can and cannot dispense.

dp

[Padraig18]

62. But, what do those regulations specify regarding BC?

I'd imagine they vary widely from state to state, wouldn't you?

[dweller]

67. define 'BC'

do you regard condoms as BC?

dp

[Padraig18]

70. Sure I do.

Don't you?

[dweller]

75. the regulations i am speaking of

don't include them.

They are not a pharmaceutical, ie a regulated controlled substance.

do you want them to be?

as in subject to the whim and or fanatical belief of a licensed dispenser?

careful, slippery slope and all.

dp

[Padraig18]

78. I am being careful.

I don't want to start down this slope at all.

[Zynx]

82. Indeed.

However, because of profit motive, there will always be dealers of birth control pills.

[Vickers]

53. No, but there should be goddammit

Maybe then all stores would carry coffee flavored soy milk.

:eyes:

[Zynx]

84. If we forced stores to carry certain goods, we would be a command economy.

We don't want to go down that road. Profit motive will provide birth control just as it provides food.

[blondeatlast]

58. Google the phrase, "right to convenience," DU.

Look for the first record that has anything to do with politics or ethics, and this is what you get.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=19341

(snip)

Yet I can understand that such advocates believe their right to convenience and sexual gratification is more important than my right to conscience. That is what one would expect: the Bible repeatedly portrays mankind apart from God as walking in darkness. What I cannot understand is elected representatives who agree that people of faith must tolerate these grossest assaults on their religious convictions, must daily offend their God and suborn their consciences, simply so that a neighbor may worship unhampered at the alter of personal convenience or sexual gratification. In fact, it makes me wonder if such people have a conscience at all.

(end)

[Fenris]

63. It's nice that you feel it necessary to refight the war

That Margaret Sanger won.

[Padraig18]

66. Damn those minorities and their unpopular rights.

Guess we should just shoot 'em, huh?

[Fenris]

68. Your response makes no sense.

Who's in the minority? You? Foetuses?

[Padraig18]

69. It makes complete sense.

Pharmacists who conscientiously object to BC.

[Fenris]

80. Perhaps they should consider another field

One where their religious beliefs won't interfere with the job they're supposed to do. Hey, the clergy has a lot of open positions these days.

[Padraig18]

81. Or not.

As they have the freedom to choose.

[POAS]

71. or deny them medically necessary treatment based on

individual religious viewpoint, sush as "Blacks are bad and should die" or "AIDS is God's will and AIDS patients should die" or "Birth control is against God's will and I will refuse to prescribe because I alone know God's mind"?

[Padraig18]

73. Phramacists don't 'treat', they 'dispense'.

Both are legal terms, and usually defined in state law.

[KittyWampus]

74. Are There Laws Saying PUBLIC Businesses Can't Discriminate? Yes

refusing to serve women at a pharmacy is discrimination.

Case closed.

[Padraig18]

77. No, because there is not a RIGHT to be served.

Unless a staute or regulation requires that that pharmacy carry a certain formulary AND dispense it to anyone bearing a valid prescription, there attaches no right to have that prescription filled at that pharmacy.

Case closed.

[KittyWampus]

86. Birth Control Pills Are Just ONE Of Many Controlled Substances Which

the population cannot get on their own.

It is the pharmacy's PURPOSE to carry controlled, prescribed substances.

To decide NOT to carry one controlled substance because of bias against women is illegal.

Does same pharmacist carry Viagra?

[Zynx]

79. That has nothing to do with product inventory though.

Civil rights and what a store carries are two entirely different matters.

[KittyWampus]

85. It Does When The "Product" Is One Of A Controlled Substance That

only those stores carrying liscensed carry.

This most certainly IS about civil rights.

[Crowdance]

76. Just under the right to misogyny. Article XI, Section 3.

Article XI, Section 4 actually combines the two, allowing for the elimination of womenfolk who are not convenient. It's a dream come true: the party can completely cave on women's human rights, because they can be completely gotten rid of. Whew! Breathing much easier....

edited...typo

[Moderator]

87. I'm locking this thread

reason : Flamebait / Flamefest