Anyone remember the "Kristol Memo" re: the health care debate?

[BlueManDude]

During the debate of Clinton's health care plan William Kristol circulated an influential memo saying that GOP should refuse to be part of any kind of a deal on universal health care. He said this was a core issue for the party and setting up a huge new entitlement would benefit the Dems for years to come. Well we all know what happened. They opposed and paid NO price for stonewalling a reform that polls showed most people favored in one way or another.

Now the players are in opposite positions. On SS the GOP is proposing something that will crack the Dems thru the spine and empower them perhaps forever. It is a death blow to the New Deal. This is THE core issue (or should be anyway) for Democrats - ALL Democrats. Yet we hear noises of compromise and "we must be for something" and "we can't just oppose" and "we have to demonstarte our own values". This all baffles me. Isn't opposing the destruction of SS standing up FOR something not just being in opposition? Doesn't that demonstrate "values". Contrast the "Kristol Memo" with what Carville appears to be saying and it's pretty clear how badly led this party is. The idea that it is THE DEMOCRATS who will pay a political price for defending SS is absurd. The idea that THE DEMOCRATS are obligated to propose an alternative to Bush's phase-out plan is equally absurd. Bush's plan is unpopular - yet wimpy Dems still wring their sweaty ittle hands about seeming "obstructionist". Lord help us.

Just my .02.

[applegrove]

1. We cannot just close our eyes to the changes in the world and that

all the growth will be in Asia so you may not want too much in US treasury bills. (US domestically could see tiny wee, if not just less than nil, growth in the next 50 years - at times). So if it makes sense you want to have the option of moving part of the SS to growing and busting markets. But that doesn't mean it has to be done in a way that endangers the spine of SS. Of course Bush and co want to make more Americans "owners of stock" that way they will vote with the markets. They want to remake America in the image of what the corporation needs. This is wrong. But we cannot hide our eyes to some of the truths out there. Perhaps the government needs to give people the option of investment of all savings in overseas stocks. They need to promote savings and putting saving accounts on top of SS would help very much more. Like they do in Canada. Bush may have had to come up with this disjointed policy (we do not know the details because nothing is on paper yet and that is a crime) to fit right in with his deranged tax plans (to get rid of income tax forever and make people pay a VAT tax). We just do not know.

The more eventualities we read up on and ready ourselves for the better.

[BlueManDude]

2. you assume that the gop are people of good will

who actually want to strenghten ss for the long haul. they want to destroy it. you can't compromise with those sort of individuals. they don't even believe ss should exist - how can you reach compromise with them?

[applegrove]

3. No - I do not assume gop are of good will. They have not demonstrated

that to me lately. I assume they are a bunch of selfish, pampered, cold & manipulative, fascist loving ***holes. They have no morals of 'centre'. Nothing but the endgame matters.

That being said - just as their use of 'promoting democracy' is not a wrong policy on its own (as it has been a tenant of the left for eons) we cannot assume that their numbers are wrong. We need more information on their plan so that the nefariousness will be obvious - if it is there. But we need to know what those estimates are for USA treasury bond growth (bonds go bust with deflations).

You take the facts and you think them through for yourself. Just the fact the Bush & Co will not release their assumptions (facts) goes to the sociopaths they are. We don't have enough information and they like it that way.

You know the film clip of the cartoon character fighting the sheet from the clothesline? That is the Democrats right now and I think that is Carville's point. For all we know the Bush WH may be on the up & up in this one instance - and that in and of itself is a trick: I'm phony, I'm real, I'm phony, I'm real, red alert on terrorism, I'm realistic, Orange Alert of Terrorism, I'm a liar, I'm telling a partial truth, I'm phony, etc.

[BlueManDude]

5. Just Say No is the only good option for the Democrats

Policically and policy-wise the best thing for Democrats is for nothing to happen.

[applegrove]

7. No - they will run you over if all you say is no. Ignore their smoke and

come with policies & a vision of your own. Bill Clinton had one - and that is why they hated him so and spend money waiting for a Monica Lewinsky to come along. They knew that was the only way to get him.

We have to face the emerging markets bravely. We cannot cut out pieces of ourselves (democracy appearing is always good & markets are what creates a middle class) and hand these very Liberal bits over to the nefarious assholes. Practicality has brought them all together and practicality will have them build up America's institutions into things that serve corporations & elites.

Saying no is not an option. We have to live our own lives which means standing up to them and aggressively coming up with new and better ideas on SS ourselves. Updating SS is a very Democratic thing too. If you 'say no' to all parts of it you have just handed them over another part of yourself. Don't fall for the trick of them boxing you out of your own needs and beliefs using your well-deserved hatred of their intentions & games. Say no to their crap but you better be ready with your own stuff.

[No Exit]

4. William Kristol is an enemy of this country.

I'm not in favor of imprisoning or silencing journalists. Kristol is (arguably) a journalist. The most effective way to eliminate this anti-American pestilence is for all honest people to shun his every word, and refuse to read his publication(s).

[BlueManDude]

6. The point is

as aleading GOP stategist he was RIGHT about what was best for their party. Now we should be doing the same thing they did, acting as complete and total obstructionists yet I believe the Dems will end up compromising. Thus Dems will lose politically and spare the GOP the political hit they'd get for destroying SS. The worst of both worlds.

Yes, Kristol is an odious character.

[Cocoa]

8. Carville is on the decline

he's not leading anything. If he were, Howard Dean wouldn't be the party chair.